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Hi Not3,
Doubt is an fierce enemy.
It attacks the trunk of the tree of faith.
Those that doubt will receive nothing from the Lord.
Oppose it in the name of Jesus.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,11:20) Nah, the nature of faith does not have to be based on a book. Is G-d a book? When it boils down to it, all religions are the same in one aspect: people believing in a higher power than themselves. Since this higher power does not come out and make Himself known, men stumble around and write down their own beliefs about Him. Then people who agree (mostly anyway) with this viewpoint believe along with them. When you accepted Christianity as your form of religion, you likely did so because it made sense to you. Yet if you were in another culture with different upbringing, another religion would make sense to you.
In the end, all religions are basically mankind's view of a G-d who really is not all that known. The things they write about their view of G-d is what they want their G-d to be like.
Spoken by a true deist!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,18:29) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,11:20) Nah, the nature of faith does not have to be based on a book. Is G-d a book? When it boils down to it, all religions are the same in one aspect: people believing in a higher power than themselves. Since this higher power does not come out and make Himself known, men stumble around and write down their own beliefs about Him. Then people who agree (mostly anyway) with this viewpoint believe along with them. When you accepted Christianity as your form of religion, you likely did so because it made sense to you. Yet if you were in another culture with different upbringing, another religion would make sense to you.
In the end, all religions are basically mankind's view of a G-d who really is not all that known. The things they write about their view of G-d is what they want their G-d to be like.
Spoken by a true deist!
You know what Popeye said, “I Yam what I Yam”Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,11:29) Yeah your cruel lord Jesus will punish you for having the human failing of doubt.
Unbelief is the fruit of darkness.Creation itself reveals the glory of God so that they are without excuse.
Unbelief in what? Jesus? There is no reason to belief in him. He is not found in any historical record yet your GT says he was of great fame during his time. How do those two ideas reconcile themselves?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,11:33) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,11:29) Yeah your cruel lord Jesus will punish you for having the human failing of doubt.
Unbelief is the fruit of darkness.Creation itself reveals the glory of God so that they are without excuse.
People who have left the faith don't seem very happy~gasping for air~! Has their new road led to anything inspiring? Like the truth?They left the Truth is search of the truth and what have they found?
If they believe one then they are just an animal and the other a want to be Jew which will never happen because they are not of the correct “bloodline”.
Let those who eyes to see take notice!
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,11:36) Unbelief in what? Jesus? There is no reason to belief in him. He is not found in any historical record yet your GT says he was of great fame during his time. How do those two ideas reconcile themselves?
Hi Tow,
Did you forget Josephus?
——————————————————————————–
Josephus' Testimony to Jesus
(Testimonium Flavianum)
Josephus, Antiquities 18. 63-64The words in ALL CAPS are likely interpolations added by Christian copyists over the centuries in an attempt to make Josephus support faith in Jesus as the Christ. We have only three Greek manuscripts of this section of Josephus, all from the 11th century. These phrases, added rather clumsily, appear to be rather obvious additions even to the modern reader in English. Once restored to its more original reading Josephus offers us a most fascinating reference to Jesus. Indeed, it is the earliest reference to Jesus outside the New Testament, and its rather matter of fact, neutral reporting, makes it all the more valuable to the historian. It is worth noting that in his earlier work, The Jewish War, written shortly after the revolt under the auspices of the Emperor Vespasian, he mentioned neither Jesus, nor John the Baptist, nor James, while in Antiquities, written in the early 90s C.E., he mentions all three. For an excellent discussion of this text see John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (Doubleday, 1991), Vol I, pp. 57-88.
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).
Professor Shlomo Pines found a different version of Josephus testimony in an Arabic version of the tenth century. It has obviously not been interpolated in the same way as the Christian version circulating in the West:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.
From the Jewish Roman world of Jesus site.
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,20:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,11:33) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,11:29) Yeah your cruel lord Jesus will punish you for having the human failing of doubt.
Unbelief is the fruit of darkness.Creation itself reveals the glory of God so that they are without excuse.
People who have left the faith don't seem very happy~gasping for air~! Has their new road led to anything inspiring? Like the truth?If you consider leaving the faith as leaving Christianity, you'd be way off in my case. I am much happier now than when I was a Christian.
Quote They left the Truth is search of the truth and what have they found? That you don't have a real clue?
Quote If they believe one then they are just an animal and the other a want to be Jew which will never happen because they are not of the correct “bloodline”. You are so biased by your GT that you look so ignorant. Blood has very little to do with it.
Quote Let those who eyes to see take notice!
We have and your words come up short.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,20:30) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,11:36) Unbelief in what? Jesus? There is no reason to belief in him. He is not found in any historical record yet your GT says he was of great fame during his time. How do those two ideas reconcile themselves?
Hi Tow,
Did you forget Josephus?
——————————————————————————–
Josephus' Testimony to Jesus
(Testimonium Flavianum)
Josephus, Antiquities 18. 63-64The words in ALL CAPS are likely interpolations added by Christian copyists over the centuries in an attempt to make Josephus support faith in Jesus as the Christ. We have only three Greek manuscripts of this section of Josephus, all from the 11th century. These phrases, added rather clumsily, appear to be rather obvious additions even to the modern reader in English. Once restored to its more original reading Josephus offers us a most fascinating reference to Jesus. Indeed, it is the earliest reference to Jesus outside the New Testament, and its rather matter of fact, neutral reporting, makes it all the more valuable to the historian. It is worth noting that in his earlier work, The Jewish War, written shortly after the revolt under the auspices of the Emperor Vespasian, he mentioned neither Jesus, nor John the Baptist, nor James, while in Antiquities, written in the early 90s C.E., he mentions all three. For an excellent discussion of this text see John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (Doubleday, 1991), Vol I, pp. 57-88.
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).
Professor Shlomo Pines found a different version of Josephus testimony in an Arabic version of the tenth century. It has obviously not been interpolated in the same way as the Christian version circulating in the West:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.
From the Jewish Roman world of Jesus site.
“The words in ALL CAPS are likely interpolations added by Christian copyists over the centuries in an attempt to make Josephus support faith in Jesus as the Christ. ”Says it all.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,13:34) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,20:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,11:33) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,11:29) Yeah your cruel lord Jesus will punish you for having the human failing of doubt.
Unbelief is the fruit of darkness.Creation itself reveals the glory of God so that they are without excuse.
People who have left the faith don't seem very happy~gasping for air~! Has their new road led to anything inspiring? Like the truth?If you consider leaving the faith as leaving Christianity, you'd be way off in my case. I am much happier now than when I was a Christian.
Quote They left the Truth is search of the truth and what have they found? That you don't have a real clue?
Quote If they believe one then they are just an animal and the other a want to be Jew which will never happen because they are not of the correct “bloodline”. You are so biased by your GT that you look so ignorant. Blood has very little to do with it.
Quote Let those who eyes to see take notice!
We have and your words come up short.
Gee you missed it TOW-STU, that's spiritual eyes! You admit you have never tasted of the Spirit don't you? At least you did!
Hi Tow,
First note that Jesus is a historical figure and rather than diverting
you should perhaps acknowledge that Jesus was significant in Israel's history?Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,20:38) Gee you missed it TOW-STU, that's spiritual eyes! You admit you have never tasted of the Spirit don't you? At least you did!
Very weak. No proof, no evidence, so the best you can do is repeat Christian philosophy. Sad.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,20:39) Hi Tow,
First note that Jesus is a historical figure and rather than diverting
you should perhaps acknowledge that Jesus was significant in Israel's history?
How so? How was he historical? No historian spoke of him. The only historical significance he had was that certain books were written about him that others used to have cause (or reason) to kill Jews. What a legacy.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,13:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,20:39) Hi Tow,
First note that Jesus is a historical figure and rather than diverting
you should perhaps acknowledge that Jesus was significant in Israel's history?
How so? How was he historical? No historian spoke of him. The only historical significance he had was that certain books were written about him that others used to have cause (or reason) to kill Jews. What a legacy.
Hi Tow,
So we need to find a historian and Josephus is not good enough?
I have a feeling that no evidence is good enough.
Back to Moses?Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,13:53) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,20:38) Gee you missed it TOW-STU, that's spiritual eyes! You admit you have never tasted of the Spirit don't you? At least you did!
Very weak. No proof, no evidence, so the best you can do is repeat Christian philosophy. Sad.
I wonder why people here don't seem to stop and think about the reasons why people stop believing christian mythology. The churches are bleeding membership faster than a sinking Titanic, yet some are so well innoculated that they would cling onto belief even to the bottom of the Atlantic. To mangle a metaphor.Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,11:12) The nature of faith is based on God's Word as recorded in the Bible (both OT and NT). What do you do when you see this base as faulty? What happens to your faith when you find out that the base contains the truth but everyone that reads it receives various truths (and some that are contradictory to other's truths)? Can the basis for faith be trusted? If not, is it possible for faith to remain?
My faith is gasping for air….
So you are the most qualified believer here to comment on the nature of faith. The original question was why does faith need so much nurturing? Yours seems to be in need of bottled oxygen.Stuart
Hi Stu,
Let the houses of churchianity bleed membership.
They will of course become more man centred to stave off their demise
But what is real will remain because we do not need a building to chat to our Dad.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2008,14:02) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 12 2008,13:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,20:39) Hi Tow,
First note that Jesus is a historical figure and rather than diverting
you should perhaps acknowledge that Jesus was significant in Israel's history?
How so? How was he historical? No historian spoke of him. The only historical significance he had was that certain books were written about him that others used to have cause (or reason) to kill Jews. What a legacy.
Hi Tow,
So we need to find a historian and Josephus is not good enough?
I have a feeling that no evidence is good enough.
Back to Moses?
As has already been pointed out, the evidence that can be seen in Josephus is adulterated and fleeting at best. To believe Jesus existed at all is historically very doubtful, let alone the extrordinary claims that would not even stand up in a law court for lack of an eyewitness account. And people make that the basis of their lives. Astonishing, but perhaps very human.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2008,14:38) Hi Stu,
Let the houses of churchianity bleed membership.
They will of course become more man centred to stave off their demise
But what is real will remain because we do not need a building to chat to our Dad.
Well I think the principle applies equally to those who are devout / born again but who do not attend church. Your interpretation is a very boutique-sized one as religion goes.Stuart
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