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Faith seems to be like magic, as long as the illusionist can maintain the illusion, everyone is happily fooled. As soon as the trick starts to become visible, if the magician doesn't scramble quickly the illusion is destroyed, possibly forever.
There is much talk of people nurturing and defending faith. It seems such a frail thing yet many put great stock in it. Why does so much energy have to be put into maintaining it? Why is it so easy to lose? Why is it that those who lose it forever are as scathing as the faithful are enthusiastic? Is there a measure of how faithful someone is?
Is faith more than the ability to maintain an illusion for oneself?
Stuart
Depends what your faith is in. I would classify myself as a deist with an affinity for YHVH as the G-d I believe in. I recognize that much that is found in Jewish scriptures is allegorical and I also recognize that much of the Tanakh was written by primitive humans. The Tanakh attributes much nastiness to YHVH which I do not accept as being true of a G-d who would bother to create the universe. I rather attribute that nastiness to the people who wrote the words. They were inspired surely but inspiration does not always come out the way it was intended.
I think you have faith. You're faith is in yourself and science. In that sense you are your own god and science is your religion. You may not claim this but your life reflects it. Or at least you contributions here show this to be true.
Fundamental Christians have the most fragile faith of all. They must accept the inerrancy of the Christian bible at all costs. They refuse to even see the errors. They are like people with mental or physical conditions who refuse to recognize them. Or like an alcoholic who refuses to recognize he has a problem. It is very much human nature to live in denial.
Hello Stu
Heb. 11:1 “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commanded for.”
If you look up the word faith in “Strong's Concordance”, you will find many scriptures that tell you what faith is. Basically it depends on you, believing that the word of God is truth; if you can be easily shaken in what you believed because of what someone else is saying, your faith, if it was faith at all, was weak to start with.
The only way you can become strong in your faith is, YOU have to prove what you believe is truth, through the word of God, not by what someone else is saying.
There are many good “magicians” out there, that fool people with the use of scriptures into believing something, that the word of God does not imply; but when your ignorant of the word of God, you will fall for the tricks.
Faith does not have to be defended if you are sure in what you believe; only when you're in doubt will you find it necessary to defend your position. If you can loose what you believed in, it's because you were never sure of it in the first place. Only you can measure your faith; it is how strong you are in what you believe, regardless of what others are saying.
Faith, proven by scripture, is never an illusion.
Don't let others convince you of anything, you convince yourself.God bless you
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 19 2007,00:48) I think you have faith. You're faith is in yourself and science. In that sense you are your own god and science is your religion. You may not claim this but your life reflects it. Or at least you contributions here show this to be true.
The relevant definition of faith for me is the one about believing without evidence.I think there are two important factors that make what I write not the product of faith. The first is that I require evidence, or if I do something that seems to be faith-based, I will acknowledge that there is no particular reason, it is just a social tradition, for example not renaming my boat (some say it brings bad luck, but I don't; nevertheless I won't be renaming it). I would be interested if you could describe some things you think I might do that are done only on faith.
The second is about the nature of science. Science is not black-and-white, it is about probability and for some that makes it seem like a faith, but actually it is the doubt that makes science useful – the same doubt is missing from fundamentalist belief. I trust scientists to develop theories that are robust, based on professional integrity and peer review. I have good evidence that this process works; it is trust, not faith. I would be the first person in line to congratulate the demolisher of atomic theory or evolution by natural selection and I would be keen to know what had been wrong all along. I don't think that is faith, either.
As for having faith in myself, well I judge my own strengths and weaknesses on the evidence.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 19 2007,05:43) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 19 2007,00:48) I think you have faith. You're faith is in yourself and science. In that sense you are your own god and science is your religion. You may not claim this but your life reflects it. Or at least you contributions here show this to be true.
The relevant definition of faith for me is the one about believing without evidence.I think there are two important factors that make what I write not the product of faith. The first is that I require evidence, or if I do something that seems to be faith-based, I will acknowledge that there is no particular reason, it is just a social tradition, for example not renaming my boat (some say it brings bad luck, but I don't; nevertheless I won't be renaming it). I would be interested if you could describe some things you think I might do that are done only on faith.
The second is about the nature of science. Science is not black-and-white, it is about probability and for some that makes it seem like a faith, but actually it is the doubt that makes science useful – the same doubt is missing from fundamentalist belief. I trust scientists to develop theories that are robust, based on professional integrity and peer review. I have good evidence that this process works; it is trust, not faith. I would be the first person in line to congratulate the demolisher of atomic theory or evolution by natural selection and I would be keen to know what had been wrong all along. I don't think that is faith, either.
As for having faith in myself, well I judge my own strengths and weaknesses on the evidence.
Stuart
No! Stu It's what you have faith in! That's the difference! And only difference! You have faith in what you WANT to believe what science has taught you. The same way we Christians believed what they taught us that NOW we find is a Lie…the difference is that you will Or still accept those lies that they have told to you. We have found “some truth” that we know is truth because we recognize the fact that we HAVE been lied too! And Now seek the truth. But the truth KNOWING that we have the Spirit of truth that has guided us thus far.Again and again it is SPIRITUAL not a book that is like any other on earth OR why has it been a best seller for so long. Have you know BS to last so long Stu?
The word of God told us that the world was round WAY before man discovered it.
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
WOW did you get that: “circle” of earth!
That's round isn't it?
Repent and accept the Lord then receive the Holy Spirit that you have never accepted. The first time I understood what the Spirit was I said (and I'll never forget) It's like having a phone line to Jesus! Have you ever in your life experienced that?
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 19 2007,05:43) I would be interested if you could describe some things you think I might do that are done only on faith.
You are so full of pride it is scary.You take your next breath based on faith, man! Listen, you have no evidence or proof that you will draw another glorious breath of life in the next minute do you? Oh, sure, you can speculate based on the evidence that you are a middle-aged, healthy male – but it would be speculation at best! Healthy human beings drop dead of brain aneurisms every day with no warning.
By faith you are sure of what you cannot prove; that is, that you will continue to breath.
de·ism (dē'ĭz'əm, dā'-) Pronunciation Key
n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.Wow – is this really what you believe, Tow?
Do you really think the waves know their boundries? Or the sun when to rise? Do you believe that God does not order these things? Has he really “abandoned” the earth and assumes no control whatsoever?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 18 2007,23:24) de·ism (dē'ĭz'əm, dā'-) Pronunciation Key
n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.Wow – is this really what you believe, Tow?
Do you really think the waves know their boundries? Or the sun when to rise? Do you believe that God does not order these things? Has he really “abandoned” the earth and assumes no control whatsoever?
N3,I believe in a Creator and I believe He is YHVH. However, I do not believe in some of the very barbaric things I read about Him in the Tanakh. I personally believe some of these things reflect more of the people's nature than G-d Himself. Really, why would YHVH have so many people slaughtered? What's worse, if you believe in Christianity then not only were these people slaughtered all of them will spend an eternity burning in hell to boot. Its like saying you're gonna die once then you'll be raised to be thrown in a lake of fire. Is that the kind of G-d that you want to worship?
It seems then, that you believe in a Creator that suits you. You feel free to cut and paste the OT and delete the NT to suit what you personally believe about God. What do you think gives you this right? Do you think that you can believe bits and pieces? Why believe any of it then? That is a precarious faith if you ask me?
You maybe would like to believe that there is a God who has things in control, like the waves and the sun, but one that didn't kill (as you deem) unjustly? That is convenient. But is it wise? I dunno……. these things require searching out.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 19 2007,15:11) No! Stu It's what you have faith in! That's the difference! And only difference! You have faith in what you WANT to believe what science has taught you. The same way we Christians believed what they taught us that NOW we find is a Lie…the difference is that you will Or still accept those lies that they have told to you. We have found “some truth” that we know is truth because we recognize the fact that we HAVE been lied too! And Now seek the truth. But the truth KNOWING that we have the Spirit of truth that has guided us thus far. Again and again it is SPIRITUAL not a book that is like any other on earth OR why has it been a best seller for so long. Have you know BS to last so long Stu?
The word of God told us that the world was round WAY before man discovered it.
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
WOW did you get that: “circle” of earth!
That's round isn't it?
Repent and accept the Lord then receive the Holy Spirit that you have never accepted. The first time I understood what the Spirit was I said (and I'll never forget) It's like having a phone line to Jesus! Have you ever in your life experienced that?
Hi KenrchConsidering what MrsIM4Truth has to say above, (I'm not sure if you agree with her or not) don't you think that what I have is actually anti-faith, a trust in science that by its very nature is uncertain, and therefore cannot provide an absolute basis for hanging all my hopes and aspirations on?
Although I appreciate that you may have a biblical duty to proselytise to me, I would prefer to read your opinions on the topic of faith and its nature.
Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 19 2007,16:19) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 19 2007,05:43) I would be interested if you could describe some things you think I might do that are done only on faith.
You are so full of pride it is scary.You take your next breath based on faith, man! Listen, you have no evidence or proof that you will draw another glorious breath of life in the next minute do you? Oh, sure, you can speculate based on the evidence that you are a middle-aged, healthy male – but it would be speculation at best! Healthy human beings drop dead of brain aneurisms every day with no warning.
By faith you are sure of what you cannot prove; that is, that you will continue to breath.
Hi Not3in1I'm sorry but I can't remember if you were involved with the discussion of whether I have faith which happened earlier in another thread. I think your point was addressed then, that one anticipates waking up tomorrow because of the evidence that you have done so every morning thus far and many others have too, and that you can (as you suggest) work out the probability of continuing to wake up each morning. I really can't see what faith (belief without evidence) has to do with this.
I'm not sure why this is turning into a discussion of my faith. Maybe I should resist responding to those posts and just listen to what people have to say about their own faith. I'm a bit sick of hearing about mine, when I don't have one!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 19 2007,19:39) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 19 2007,16:19) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 19 2007,05:43) I would be interested if you could describe some things you think I might do that are done only on faith.
You are so full of pride it is scary.You take your next breath based on faith, man! Listen, you have no evidence or proof that you will draw another glorious breath of life in the next minute do you? Oh, sure, you can speculate based on the evidence that you are a middle-aged, healthy male – but it would be speculation at best! Healthy human beings drop dead of brain aneurisms every day with no warning.
By faith you are sure of what you cannot prove; that is, that you will continue to breath.
Hi Not3in1I'm sorry but I can't remember if you were involved with the discussion of whether I have faith which happened earlier in another thread. I think your point was addressed then, that one anticipates waking up tomorrow because of the evidence that you have done so every morning thus far and many others have too, and that you can (as you suggest) work out the probability of continuing to wake up each morning. I really can't see what faith (belief without evidence) has to do with this.
I'm not sure why this is turning into a discussion of my faith. Maybe I should resist responding to those posts and just listen to what people have to say about their own faith. I'm a bit sick of hearing about mine, when I don't have one!
Stuart
OH Stu! You not only have faith but like I said It's Amazing!
Stu,
You may be sick of it, but when you put yourself out there it's all fair game. You can't help but notice that we are, most of us, Christians. We can't help but wonder why you even care about faith……. We all understand what faith is. It's the building block; the foundation of what we hold dear. To talk and discuss it would be like a college student wanting to review the ABC's. You get my point.
But for you, you seem interested in this elementary thing. Why? More directly, why do you care (inquiring minds want to know!)?
Stu It was my Husband that replied to your post, you have to see if I signed it Mrs. I did not. But of course I belief the same then my Husband, so it really makes no difference, I just want to let people know to watch when you talking about me or my Husband. It is however that you have no Faith as far as I can see. That is what you want to know is it not? The faith that we as Christians have is from GOD BY GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT. You will know the difference if you would except God in your life. But since you are so angry there is no way that God is going to give you His Holy Spirit. How did you become an Atheist anyway, that is what I like to know?
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 19 2007,00:06) It seems then, that you believe in a Creator that suits you. You feel free to cut and paste the OT and delete the NT to suit what you personally believe about God. What do you think gives you this right? Do you think that you can believe bits and pieces? Why believe any of it then? That is a precarious faith if you ask me? How many books didn't make it into the canon of both the Tanakh and the New Testament? Now ask yourself why some were picked and others were left on the floor. Human intervention. Revealed religions all have human flaws in them because they were written by men. None of it was written by the hand of YHVH. Only the 10 statements were written in this manner.
Quote You maybe would like to believe that there is a God who has things in control, like the waves and the sun, but one that didn't kill (as you deem) unjustly? That is convenient. But is it wise? I dunno……. these things require searching out.
Do you truly believe if, as your bible says, G-d is love that He would eternally punish people for not believing in Jesus when this is much evidence against his existence? Do you also truly believe that G-d decided that mankind, which was made in His image, became so wicked that He had to kill them all except for one family and start anew? Do you further believe that He would give His people a covenant that was to last forever only to have one man, the apostate Paul, come along and say it was abolished? How can you give a national revelation to a people and then turn around and wipe it out through one man who once supposedly delivered Christians up to be killed? What if Paul saw that the best way to destroy the original Christianity was not killing Christians but leading them away from the truth?Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 20 2007,11:55) None of it was written by the hand of YHVH. Only the 10 statements were written in this manner.
Why not just live by the 10 Commandments then? Why bother studying the OT at all?Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 20 2007,11:55) Do you truly believe if, as your bible says, G-d is love that He would eternally punish people for not believing in Jesus when this is much evidence against his existence?
According to Stu there is much evidence against the existence of God, as well. Do you think you will not be rewarded if you do not believe God truly exists?Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 19 2007,20:41) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 20 2007,11:55) Do you truly believe if, as your bible says, G-d is love that He would eternally punish people for not believing in Jesus when this is much evidence against his existence?
According to Stu there is much evidence against the existence of God, as well. Do you think you will not be rewarded if you do not believe God truly exists?
That is where Stu is wrong. There is no concrete evidence that either disproves or proves in the existence of G-d. So I tend not to debate with atheist over the existence of G-d. Personally all I have to do is look out the window and I'm convinced.
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