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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2010,16:16) Hi LU,
So this description of the man Melchizedek alludes to his shadowy history in scripture.
He is indeed a priest forever like the Son of God.
Nick,
The priesthood is not the only thing they have in common. Someone recently told me that possibly Mel was an angel and that is why no geneology or end of life. I thought that was interesting.Kathi
LU,
I think you only believe Hebrews is actually referencing jesus as God Almighty is because That is What You Want To Believe It Says.
Hebrews 18-9, as i am sure you are well aware, ia quotation of a Psalm (45:6-7) which is a wedding song addressed to the King [Solomon/David?].Is the King here being called God/GOD?
In any case – to what advantage is it that Jesus is elevated to God status. Does it not then make God Almighty out to be a liar.
LU,
“In Rev. 5 they are both worshipped”,
I don't think thay are. Read it again.
Quote
” 11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
“…Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…”
BUT,
” 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.”
It is God Almighty who sits on the throne. “HIM” not “THEM”. Notice that when the lamb is involved, the lamb is mentioned.
Why not then:
” 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever AND THE LAMB.”
or
” 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped THEM that liveth for ever and ever.”
It is the desire to read it as you want it to be that stops you from reading what it says. but fear not (hmm.. dunno!), many others are the same?
Sorry,
“It is God Almighty who sits on the throne. “HIM” not “THEM”. Notice that when the lamb is involved, the lamb is mentioned”should read:
It is God Almighty who is entitled 'he that lives for ever and ever”. Beisdes, it says “worshiped HIM” not “worshiped THEM”. Notice that when the lamb is involved, the lamb is mentioned”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2010,08:21) Hi Not3,
There are indeed many called gods.
But for us there is one God.
Hi Nick,But the point is, Kathi can flesh out her theories (backed by scriptures!)
The point to anything is…..anything can be possible. I guess we'll know someday. Maybe not?
Love,
MandyQuote (JustAskin @ Jan. 26 2010,07:49) Elizabeth, Thank you for your support. I think Terra belives a I do. We have often found ourselves reflecting on each others posts.
And, yes, we both do get exasperated… maybe we should learn from WJ's apology post???I don't currently go to any church. I can't feel comfortable with any of them -I'm not trying to invent my own version of God – I just can't find the right church, which is why I ended up here.
Love and Grace to you.
Hi JustAskin,You have come to the right place in coming here!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2010,09:04) Hi Not3,
Yes but you and LU are not among the confused.
Let the dead bury the dead.
Flattery will get you no where, Nick.
But thanks for the compliment.
Love,
MandyJustAskin, sorry, you better go back to verse 12 again, because the Lamb is worshipped! You make it sound like you want it to!!!! YOU SHOULD READ THIS VERY CAREFUL,REV. IS OF JESUS! Rev. 1:7 (NIV) “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.” Does Jesus call himself the Lord God Almighty? Yes
(Rev 1:8 NIV) “”I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
Who is coming in the clouds? Verse 7, the one who was pierced. Jesus.
What is his name? Verse 8, the Alpha and the Omega, the Lord God, the Almighty.
(Rev 22:12 NIV) “”Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”
(Rev 22:13 NIV) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Who gives rewards at his soon coming? Verses 12, 13, the Alpha and the Omega.
(Mat 16:27 NIV) “For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.”
Who is the Son of man that is coming in his Father's glory? Verse 27, it is The Son of Man, (Jesus). Compare with the Alpha and the Omega, the Lord God Almighty that is coming and was pierced, in Rev. 1: 7,8.
(Rev 22:20 NIV) “He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming soon.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.”
Who is coming soon? the Lord Jesus. Compare Rev. 22: 12,13 as the Alpha and Omega
katjoQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2010,13:21) Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 22 2010,09:54) One of the major problems seems to be that people will read something and extract those bits that they WANT to say what they WANT to think: Quote Rev 5:13-14
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
What is being said in the quote above: God and the Lamb are being Glorified, etc… ok, clear, succint.and what is being said here?:
Quote
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.That it is “HIM”…
LU, how did you manage to associate the 'HIM' in vs 14 with the 'the Lamb' in vs 13?
JustAskin',You ask a good question and so I looked up the Greek and found that in the Nestle Greek the words “to Him that liveth for ever and ever” are not there in 5:14. They are only there in the Textus Receptus Greek. However they are there in Rev 4:10 in both the Nestle and Textus Receptus.
See the different translations:
Revelation 5:14
NET ©
And the four living creatures were saying “Amen,” and the elders threw themselves to the ground and worshiped.NIV ©
The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshipped.NASB ©
And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.NLT ©
And the four living beings said, “Amen!” And the twenty–four elders fell down and worshiped God and the Lamb.MSG ©
The Four Animals called out, “Oh, Yes!” The Elders fell to their knees and worshiped.BBE ©
And the four beasts said, So be it. And the rulers went down on their faces and gave worship.NRSV ©
And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the elders fell down and worshiped.NKJV ©
Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty–four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.Then compare the different translation of Rev 4:10 here:
Revelation 4:10
NET ©
the twenty-four elders throw themselves to the ground 1 before the one who sits on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever, and they offer their crowns 2 before his 3 throne, saying:NIV ©
the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:NASB ©
the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,NLT ©
the twenty–four elders fall down and worship the one who lives forever and ever. And they lay their crowns before the throne and say,MSG ©
the Twenty-four Elders would fall prostrate before the One Seated on the Throne. They worshiped the age-after-age Living One. They threw their crowns at the foot of the Throne, chanting,BBE ©
The four and twenty rulers go down on their faces before him who is seated on the high seat, and give worship to him who is living for ever and ever, and take off their crowns before the high seat, saying,NRSV ©
the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,NKJV ©
the twenty–four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:This is not the first time that I have been suspicious of the Textus Receptus. It looks like the words “to Him who liveth for ever and ever were possibly added.”
Do you find that interesting too?
Kathi
JustAskin,I have bumped this post for you to read again. It seems that you don't realize the possibility that your translation is wrong on this in Rev 5.
Btw, this is what worship looks like:
5:11 Then 35 I looked and heard the voice of many angels in a circle around the throne, as well as the living creatures and the elders. Their 36 number was ten thousand times ten thousand 37 – thousands times thousands – 5:12 all of whom 38 were singing 39 in a loud voice:
“Worthy is the lamb who was killed 40
to receive power and wealth
and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and praise!”
5:13 Then 41 I heard every creature – in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them – singing: 42
“To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power 43 forever and ever!”Kathi
LU,
Not sure what you are showing me. But why did you stop at verse 13.
Verse 14 then says: “And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.(God the Father)
JustAskin,
I stopped at v.13 because you focus on v. 14 and seem to miss that what they are doing in v. 13 is worship. Verse 14 does not include the words “him that liveth for ever and ever” in most translations because it is not in the Greek text (Nestle).
Kathi
justAskin, read my post on page 15 on Rev.
katjo
Matthew 15;8 These people HONOR me with their lips, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY WORSHIP(see that word worship) ME IN VAIN; their teachings are butr ules taught by men!
katjo
LU,
I may concur – but it still says “Him” not “Them”. Can it be explained why this is?
Does the sentence read right: “They worshiped Him [God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lamb?]”
Katjo,
Picking verses out of relationship with the context is no way of proving anything.
It only shows how desparate people will do anything to maintain their postion even in light of dire Truth.
Satan knew the Truth but even he lied so should I expect better from Trinitarians.
“Trinity” was created and maintained by the abomination that is the Holy catholic Church under the leadership of that other abomination – The Romans. Do you think that the abomination would preach the Gospel of Jesus and God?
Satan knows that he needs to get at God by getting mankind to divide heaven and dethrone God Almighty and replace him with Jesus by getting us confused about who THEY (God and Jesus) are.
It is also patently clear from the postings in this Forum that the HOLY SPIRIT get little attention – Considering that THEY are CO-EQUAL according to the Trinity – isn't that HYPOCRIPHAL?
You can only serve ONE MAster: IS this God, The Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
If they are CO-EQUAl they cannot be separated.
If they are God they cannot be separated
If they are a Unity they cannot be separatedGod cannot die – but Jesus Died! So at some point there were only TWO in the Trinity?
(When a man dies his Wife is released from her marraige!)“You” (plural – trinitarians)” claim that Jesus is God – but Jesus died.
“You” claim that he was half man half god (or some such nonesense!) but if he was then he did not die as man and therfore we are not saved by Salvation
“You” claim that he was God – and didn't die – so once again… What was the of it all point then? If he was God then how in heaven or hell was 'real' amn supposed to follow his teachings because he came to set an example to mankind.S'truth, the perversity of this wicked nation knows no bounds.
Get a grip, everyone. The enemy is SATAN, not each other…
hi JA
but some like confusion and mystery, so they don't even see Satan in the back ground ,since they are satisfied in their believes, to them it is OK.A man, once exposed to the truth should maintain himself in that truth.
To be exposed to falsity and accepting it as truth is like a hungry dog eating infested meat and becoming ill by it but unwiiling to vomit it out for fear of going hungry again.
To reject that truth once it is made known and to go back to the falsity is like a dog returning to it's vomit after having ejected it.
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