The most high god

Participant

or.. “I, the Lord AM Three”?

Surely, God wants us to know and understand who he is?

In this view (which I don't believe), Jesus didn't do a very good job of showing us “God the Most High”, did he? He has left us all bickering with each other when we should be concentrating on reconciling ourselves to himself (God the Most High).

January 25, 2010 at 5:23 pm#173239

Elizabeth

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 26 2010,03:33)

Elizabeth,

You have hit the nail squarely on the head.
God is a Title – it descibes the highest being in an organisation. Since we are talking about the ultimate organisation which contains all other organisations there can only be ONE GOD and he is called “ALMIGHTY GOD” – denoted simply as GOD (all capital/emphatic) or God (Leading caps 'G' for General usage – only the most irreverent use this title about themselves or another individual).

There canot be 'lesser GODs” but since we are OF God mankind can also be 'god' of it's like. GOD has made Mankind as a limited version of Himself.

“god” (or more specifically 'a god') may be used by anyone about anyone meaning 'highest in a human organisation, the one that knows most about … the one who does the better consistently over others but even so it must be used with extreme caution so as not to raise the individual to worshipful status!!)

This one God give us HIS name as variously by language and rendering:”I AM”, Jehovah, Yahweh, Yashua, YHWH, etc.

GOD has [spawned] a Son and is therefore also called God the Father – God the father of His Son. However note that nowhere in Scripture is the Son EVER called “God the Son”, He is either “Son of God” or “Son of Man” (when on Earth). Notice also that Jesus, himself, never called Himself “Son of God”, he always says “Son of Man” – it is others who called him “Son of God”, however he did not dispute the title (“Son of God”) – he just never said it.

Elizabeh, except for a few verses in Revelations where it is unclear who is saying what, putting God the Father and Jesus Christ in the perspective that we do here ther is no problem reading scriptures without that nagging thought that something didn't sound right there but I'll just ignore it because if I don't and I query it I will get thrown out of my Church.

That is not to say that other New Testament text do not also present problem – Some Bible translators had an agenda to keep for a particular church or King and used words that were pleasing rather than were proper scriptural rendering – or – they simply made mistakes.

May you be blessed.

A.J. Pleasantly surprised that someone else believes that God is a title. Have been saying that for some time now and nobody responded to that. What Church do you belong to. Most Churches in our City are either Trinitarian or Sabbath keepers. Our believe is that the trinity is wrong and also that the Sabbath was the Old Covenant and a requirement for the Children of Israel. Exodus 31:16-17.
Also we are in the New Covenant
Luke 22:20
and Jesus gives us the great Commandment in
Math.22:37-40
So my Husband and I have stayed Home now for 25 years. My Husband has retired now for 6 years and I am disabled and He takes good care of me. We have been married for 49 years. But I do miss the fellowship with other like minded people. God has been very good to us and He has shown us new Truths, like the preexisting of Jesus. That is a very sticky subject. Most think that if you believe in the preexisting of Jesus, you are a Trinitarian, which we are not.
We feel that these Scriptures are clear like
Co. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
John 1:1
Rev. 19:13 is where it explains that Jesus is the Word and, which I said before.
Best Wishes
Peace and Love Irene

January 25, 2010 at 6:23 pm#173254

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 25 2010,02:02)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 17 2010,23:37)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 17 2010,00:29)

LU
i do not understand God beget God.?

were you want to go with this?

terraricca,
Is it hard for you to understand these:

Man begets man
Animal begets animal

If that is not hard for you to understand, then why is it hard for you to understand:

God begets god

Maybe you haven't considered the word “God/god” as a classification or a type of being like man or animal.

I'm just going for truth and understanding, I would bet that is what you want also. Think about it…I know it is simple…so simple that it is missed, in my opinion.

Blessings,
Kathi

God said that beside him there is NO OTHER. There is no “other God”. He didn't specify “High” God or “low” God. There is no other God – period.

God begets god is therefore erroneous.

Love,
Mandy

Mandy,

I think that this is the passage that you are referring to:

45:20 Gather together and come!
Approach together, you refugees from the nations!
Those who carry wooden idols know nothing,
those who pray to a god that cannot deliver.
45:21 Tell me! Present the evidence! 53
Let them consult with one another!
Who predicted this in the past?
Who announced it beforehand?
Was it not I, the Lord?
I have no peer, there is no God but me,
a God who vindicates and delivers; 54
there is none but me.
45:22 Turn to me so you can be delivered, 55
all you who live in the earth’s remote regions!
For I am God, and I have no peer.
45:23 I solemnly make this oath 56 –
what I say is true and reliable: 57
‘Surely every knee will bow to me,
every tongue will solemnly affirm; 58
45:24 they will say about me,
“Yes, the Lord is a powerful deliverer.”’” 59
All who are angry at him will cower before him. 60
45:25 All the descendants of Israel will be vindicated by the Lord
and will boast in him. 61

First of all, the context is not explaining the Father and Son, it is comparing the living God of Israel with the current so-called gods of the time and of the area around Israel.

Secondly, when Jesus compares Himself with the Father, the Father is always greater.

Thirdly, when the context is about the Son of God, it says this:
Heb 1:8-12
8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASU

Rev 5:11-14
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
NASU

Whether you call the son of God “God” or not, I don't think anyone should say that He is not called God at all, and since He is called God by His Father, how is it that anyone dare say that He is not God in some sense of the word. Monogenes theos (John 1:18 NASB) is the only begotten God, or some might say, the only God that came into being.

God the Father reveals His Son in the New Testament therefore, when someone takes a passage from the Old Testament and tries to make a case for who the Son of God is or isn't, they are going to fall short of the fuller message.

Kathi

January 25, 2010 at 6:31 pm#173256

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 25 2010,12:08)

Hi All,

Can anyone explain to me how it is that God says “Let US create Man” and “Let US go down and scatter them” but then says “I, the Lord am ONE” (and other similar over and over in the old testament)

Surely he should then have said: “WE ARE WHO WE ARE” and “We, the LORD are One”? and “Beside US, there is no other God formed”

The demons in the Mad man had no problem in saying “MY name is Legion: for we are many”

Any thoughts?

Hi JustAskin,
According to my understanding, God created all things by His Word, His Word is a person…a Son to God, that is why it says “us” where it says “us” or “we.” The reference is most likely the Father and the Son.

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
NASU

When the word “one” is used, it can be the Most High alone or the unity of the Father and Son. That is how I decipher it anyway.

Blessings,
Kathi

January 25, 2010 at 8:32 pm#173263

Participant

Hi LU,
So does your unity with God in Christ make you God too?
For us there is one God, the Father.
God is one.

January 25, 2010 at 8:34 pm#173264

Participant

LU,

I think i understand what you are saying. like a 'party of people are ONE' amongts a group of other parties of people:
“How many more [parties] for the coach.”
“Just one, the Smiths, they are just coming now”

Or,

“How many more for the coach?”
“Just ONE [seat for Me] – my little one will sit with me” (This is stretching the context…)

Or,

“How many more [individuals] for the coach?”
“Just one, me?”

Would it not be clear in which context God was speaking. I find it hard to construct a valid sentence using saying “I am ONE” meaning “I am [more than one]”.

Can anyone help here?

January 25, 2010 at 8:43 pm#173267

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2010,03:33)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 25 2010,01:53)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 17 2010,14:47)

terraricca,
You misunderstood my comment. No where did I say that the Son was God the Father, in fact, I said that the Son was not the Most High God (the Father).

I don't think that one has to be a trinitarian to believe that the Son is God. God is what would be begotten of a Father that was and is God. He would not be anything but what He was begotten from…He just wouldn't be the same being that beget Him, nor would He be the same age as the one that beget Him…do you see that? Since He could not be the same age as the one who beget Him, He couldn't be the “Most High God.” Simple! Only one “Most High God.” A Most High God that has a son begotten before time began.

I hope you can understand this,
Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Hope all is well with you. I caught this post and it reminding me of something I saw on TV not too long ago. There was a show on African bees and how they are infiltrating the hives of American bees.

These bees are called “killer” bees because they sneak into the hives and somehow convince the American bees that they are queen bees. They American bees feed them and care for them. They even kill their American queen!!!

Stay with me here…..sorry for the boring story on bees. LOL

BUT when these African bees lay their eggs, there is no one to furtilize them. When the eggs hatch, they are clones of their mothers!!! This produces an even more aggressive strand of African bee. It's quite a problem.

Reproduction requires a mate. If God alone gave birth to the son, wouldn't the son just be a clone of God? Not a true son at all? If you want to use terms like, “son”, then you have to use them in the context for which they belong. Otherwise you need a new term, imo.

Isn't that why Mary was needed? So that Jesus would be a true son?

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy,
Nice to see you passing through.
Interesting story about the bees. The realm that God is in is not bound by the laws of nature that He established. He does things “super”naturally. He had a son supernaturally…the only Son of God. The Son of God was around long before He came to reside in the Son of Man. Mary was needed for the Son of Man part.

My opinion,
Kathi

Hello again,

Yes, it's an interesting opinion. I've said before that your theory is the most original (and the most interesting) I've heard in a long while.

Take care and hope the family is well!

Love,
Mandy

January 25, 2010 at 8:49 pm#173269

Participant

Elizabeth,

Thank you for your support. I think Terra belives a I do. We have often found ourselves reflecting on each others posts.
And, yes, we both do get exasperated… maybe we should learn from WJ's apology post???

I don't currently go to any church. I can't feel comfortable with any of them -I'm not trying to invent my own version of God – I just can't find the right church, which is why I ended up here.

I tried discussing the matter with my girlfriend but she didn't want to know.
I went to a church with a friend – presbytarian – and they threw me out when I questioned the Trinity (Glory to God for that!!!)
I have had teaching from Jehovah Witnesses … ha! They said I was already more JW than most that attended… but I feel uncomfortable with their side line issues to do with Blood (I can see what they are at but…), Birthdays (I never celebrate anyway), Predictions of the end of the world (oh my gosh – Why did they do that – several times as well???).. other stuff. Iread their magazines but tey are cyclical so you see the same thing over and over. an dthey beliee that they are the only ones saved – even the 144,000 will be totally of them. Other than that, they make good friends.

a coupla Born Agains came to my house wearing the Whitest Shirts I have ever seen – They gave me books to read – which were only fit for fantasy and they asked me to pray with them (I said my own prayers) Three times they came and never after – I was scared of them…

I went tio Church of God as a child but started to become suspicious of the sermons and it was totally routine. For a child with enquiring mind this was dread! I left as soon as I could stand up to my Parents.

There was one other, escapes my mind at the moment but they were Jesus Worshippers…

Ahhh – I'm lost???

Love and Grace to you.

January 25, 2010 at 8:50 pm#173270

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2010,05:23)

It's really not our fault for the misunderstanding, right? God says there is no “other” God. No one like Him. Then he calls his son (who came from Mary) “God”. Go figure.

It's confusion piled onto confusion for the simple minded, like myself.

But your explainations have always facinated me.

Love,
Mandy

January 25, 2010 at 8:57 pm#173272

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2010,17:09)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 24 2010,15:42)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2010,15:30)

JustAskin,

Deut 6:13-15
13 “You shall fear only the Lord your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name.
14 “You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you,
15 for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.
NASU

Notice that the context here and see that the intention seems to be making a distinction between the Lord their God and the god's of the peoples that surround them.

I really don't think that the Son of God would fit in the category of being a god of the people that surrounds them, would you? He and the Father are one. They are not in competition with each other. The Son is not some foreign god but one with their Almighty.

Kathi

Hi LU,
Jesus is the Son of God.
True he is united with God but so are you in him.[Jn17]
That does not make you God and neither does it make him GOD

Hi Nick,
True, unity with the Father does not make the Son a God. He got that by being a Son of God. That gave Him a divine nature and then the Father gave Him a kingdom and authority over those within it and the supernatural power necessary. Not to mention that even His Father refers to Him as God in Hebrews 1 and John 1:1. That doesn't mean that He is God as the Father is, but He is God as the Son.

We have unity but not a kingdom, nor the inherent divine nature which we only will partake of later-it will not be an inherent nature that we originally had.
Kathi

Hi Nick,
Your most recent question to me you have already asked of me and I answered you…read the quoted post. Thanks, Kathi

January 25, 2010 at 9:02 pm#173273

Participant

Hi LU,
WE do not have several gods.
For us there is ONE GOD, the Father.

We have unity in the kingdom by the same Spirit Jesus shared with God.
Jn17, Eph3, 1Cor12.

January 25, 2010 at 9:06 pm#173275

Participant

LU,

You can't CREATE a God – There can only be ONE God – ever?

Anything that is not “THE GOD” is not a GOD.

The term “”God” is a title for the Highest. How can there be Two or More Highest?

“god” can be any number of entities – So, yes, Jesus can be 'a god' but not 'a GOD' nor 'a God'.

Also, since his Father is always above him, Jesus cannot be 'the most Highest', nor Equal to the most highest (What he has [The Rulership over God's Kingdon is [loaned] to him by the father – He will to give it back when the task he was set is accomplished].
Jesus is thus righty names “KING OF king and LORD OF Lord” but he is not “GOD of gods and LORD of Lords”.

Even when next to his Father he is at his Father's Right hand. This is a unique position and is a fully entrusted position but the KING is Always the KING no matter who his most trusted confident is (I'm showing position here – not illuding to 'king of king…”).

Is how I see it.

January 25, 2010 at 9:09 pm#173277

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 25 2010,15:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2010,05:23)

It's really not our fault for the misunderstanding, right? God says there is no “other” God. No one like Him. Then he calls his son (who came from Mary) “God”. Go figure.

It's confusion piled onto confusion for the simple minded, like myself.

But your explainations have always facinated me.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy,
One thing that I recently noticed is that there is a difference between who is referred to as the “Son of God” and the one who is the son of Mary, her firstborn. The one who came from Mary had a mother…right? And the one who came from Mary had a geneology…right? See Matt.1 for that geneology and I think there is another one in Luke maybe.

Well, the Son of God doesn't have an earthly mother or father or a geneology like other men but Jesus did. His mother was Mary, and He came from the line of David.

The Son of God and the flesh Son (the Son of Man) did not have the same beginning. See here in Hebrews:

Hebrews 7:3

NET ©
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, he has neither beginning of days nor end of life but is like the son of God, and he remains a priest for all time.

NIV ©
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest for ever.

NASB ©
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

NLT ©
There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestorsâ€“â€“no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God.

MSG ©
Melchizedek towers out of the past–without record of family ties, no account of beginning or end. In this way he is like the Son of God, one huge priestly presence dominating the landscape always.

BBE ©
Being without father or mother, or family, having no birth or end to his life, being made like the Son of God, is a priest for ever.

NRSV ©
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

Something more for you to ponder if you haven't done so already. Of course you already know that I do believe that the pre-existing Son of God dwelled within the Son of Man.

Kathi

January 25, 2010 at 9:12 pm#173279

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 25 2010,15:43)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2010,03:33)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 25 2010,01:53)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 17 2010,14:47)

terraricca,
You misunderstood my comment. No where did I say that the Son was God the Father, in fact, I said that the Son was not the Most High God (the Father).

I hope you can understand this,
Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Hope all is well with you. I caught this post and it reminding me of something I saw on TV not too long ago. There was a show on African bees and how they are infiltrating the hives of American bees.

Stay with me here…..sorry for the boring story on bees. LOL

Isn't that why Mary was needed? So that Jesus would be a true son?

Love,
Mandy

My opinion,
Kathi

Hello again,

Yes, it's an interesting opinion. I've said before that your theory is the most original (and the most interesting) I've heard in a long while.

Take care and hope the family is well!

Love,
Mandy

Mandy

Excellent point!

The creation itself reveals the Glory of God.

God would not have had to bring “Birth” to anything.

If he just wanted to just supernaturally bring a Son into existense, then he would have created him like all others are created including those that were born!

The term “Born” in regards to man is like you say, man and woman procreating!

The only Supernatual act of procreation by God in reference to Jesus is the virgin birth and it was after that that Jesus was declared to be the “Only Son of God”!

Blessings WJ

January 25, 2010 at 9:13 pm#173280

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 25 2010,16:06)

LU,

You can't CREATE a God – There can only be ONE God – ever?

Anything that is not “THE GOD” is not a GOD.

The term “”God” is a title for the Highest. How can there be Two or More Highest?

“god” can be any number of entities – So, yes, Jesus can be 'a god' but not 'a GOD' nor 'a God'.

Is how I see it.

JustAskin,
Obviously the term “god/God” has not just been used for the Most High God. Christians have one Most High God and He called His Son God in Hebrews. He didn't have to create a son, He could have just begotten Him.

I do not see them as equal.
Kathi

January 25, 2010 at 9:16 pm#173281

Participant

Hi LU,
So this description of the man Melchizedek alludes to his shadowy history in scripture.
He is indeed a priest forever like the Son of God.

January 25, 2010 at 9:18 pm#173282

Elizabeth

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 26 2010,07:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2010,05:23)

It's really not our fault for the misunderstanding, right? God says there is no “other” God. No one like Him. Then he calls his son (who came from Mary) “God”. Go figure.

It's confusion piled onto confusion for the simple minded, like myself.

But your explainations have always facinated me.

Love,
Mandy

Mandy nd Kathi! John 1:1 The Word was in Beginning with God and is God. Also Hebrew 1:8-9 the Father calls His Son God. Now go to Rev. 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God. That verse is were Mr. Armstrong calls Him the Spoken Word of God. In the Old Testament when it says God said, it is the Word. Because Jesus said in John 5:37 And the Father Himself has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice or seen His form. IMO God is a title. When all enemies have been made subject to Jesus then He will give the Kingdom back to the Father so that God can be all in all. 1 Corinth. 12:28
We are the Sons of God and it makes sense that God is the title of the Family of God. My opinion.Mandy don't short change you, you have God's Holy Spirit in you and He loves you and wants you to understand all. Maybe not all in this life, but then in the next.
Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene

January 25, 2010 at 9:21 pm#173283

Participant

Hi Not3,
There are indeed many called gods.
But for us there is one God.

January 25, 2010 at 9:22 pm#173284

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2010,16:02)

Hi LU,
WE do not have several gods.
For us there is ONE GOD, the Father.

We have unity in the kingdom by the same Spirit Jesus shared with God.
Jn17, Eph3, 1Cor12.

Nick,
I think that it comes down to semantics and context and knowing that the Son of God was given credit for a part in creation and that the Father has called Him God…also the Father has transferred us to the kingdom of His Son. In Rev. 5, both are bowed down to and given worship.

Kathi

January 25, 2010 at 9:24 pm#173285