- This topic has 963 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 22 2010,09:54) One of the major problems seems to be that people will read something and extract those bits that they WANT to say what they WANT to think: Quote Rev 5:13-14
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
What is being said in the quote above: God and the Lamb are being Glorified, etc… ok, clear, succint.and what is being said here?:
Quote
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.That it is “HIM”…
LU, how did you manage to associate the 'HIM' in vs 14 with the 'the Lamb' in vs 13?
JustAskin',You ask a good question and so I looked up the Greek and found that in the Nestle Greek the words “to Him that liveth for ever and ever” are not there in 5:14. They are only there in the Textus Receptus Greek. However they are there in Rev 4:10 in both the Nestle and Textus Receptus.
See the different translations:
Revelation 5:14
NET ©
And the four living creatures were saying “Amen,” and the elders threw themselves to the ground and worshiped.NIV ©
The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshipped.NASB ©
And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.NLT ©
And the four living beings said, “Amen!” And the twenty–four elders fell down and worshiped God and the Lamb.MSG ©
The Four Animals called out, “Oh, Yes!” The Elders fell to their knees and worshiped.BBE ©
And the four beasts said, So be it. And the rulers went down on their faces and gave worship.NRSV ©
And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the elders fell down and worshiped.NKJV ©
Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty–four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.Then compare the different translation of Rev 4:10 here:
Revelation 4:10
NET ©
the twenty-four elders throw themselves to the ground 1 before the one who sits on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever, and they offer their crowns 2 before his 3 throne, saying:NIV ©
the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:NASB ©
the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,NLT ©
the twenty–four elders fall down and worship the one who lives forever and ever. And they lay their crowns before the throne and say,MSG ©
the Twenty-four Elders would fall prostrate before the One Seated on the Throne. They worshiped the age-after-age Living One. They threw their crowns at the foot of the Throne, chanting,BBE ©
The four and twenty rulers go down on their faces before him who is seated on the high seat, and give worship to him who is living for ever and ever, and take off their crowns before the high seat, saying,NRSV ©
the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,NKJV ©
the twenty–four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:This is not the first time that I have been suspicious of the Textus Receptus. It looks like the words “to Him who liveth for ever and ever were possibly added.”
Do you find that interesting too?
KathiLU,
Short answer, Yes.
Long answer, Yes.And that is why Trinitarians can hide behind misquoted verses and why others sects can evolve (look at EDJ's – wierd or what?)
But remember that Satan is not a simpleton – he has high intelligence and was in God's presence – he has limited knowledge of God's plans and is using them against mankind to lead us astray.That is why I say that worshipping Jesus is wrong:
– There is clear and explicit instruction for us to Worship God Almighty
– There is an instruction to Worship NO ONE OTHER THAN GOD ALMIGHTY
– There is no instruction for us to Worship Jesus
– There is clear evidence that the Angels were instructed to Worship Jesus (And even that could have been a mis-translation – could it
have meant Glorify; remember that this is refering to Jesus' Birth on Earth Did the Angels WORSHIP him at this birth? – is there any
cross reference help for this.Is it significant that the only thing written concerning Jesus' birth and the angels is:
“After this an innumerable company of angels appeared with the herald saying:
'Glory to GOD IN THE HIGHEST,on earth peace, good will toward men.'”The angels did not call Jesus “God” but he who is in the Highest
In Revelation in my Bible (NKJV), and supporting others, ONLY GOD on the throne is Worshipped (according to my reading)
So if, in Heaven ONLY God is worshipped, even in the presence of the Lamb, How do we on Earth then claim that Jesus also should be Worshipped – Is this not Satan, the deciver, at work?
He wanst us to worship Christ to prove God wrong – that his son accepted worship and therefore HE (GOD) is nopt the ONLY one worthy of WOrship ::: Satan is Playing the Sympathy Card that says that Jesus was a “Good Person” so he should be Worshipped.
It was Satan who sought to have mankind worship him that caused him to sin – are we going to try and do the same for Christ?:
Remember, remember,
the first dissenter –
the one who sought worship from man.
He challenged HIM in the Heights
to an unwinnable fights
and now he's gonna be destroyed before the end of God's PlanJustAskin,
I understand your point about our command to worship the Lord our God and serve Him only. I am going to try to explain how you would be doing that even while worshipping His Son.
This is an illustration, not perfect but I hope it will help:
Let's say there is a young girl and she has only one parent still alive, her father. And let's say that her father, whom the little girl adores and honors with impeccable obedience, tells the little girl that he has to go away for a few weeks for business and that she will be put under the charge of the most reliable and loving Nanny. He instructs her that where he is going, he will not be able to be contacted for anything and that she is to listen and honor the nanny with the same obedience and honor that she has given him. So, the father leaves and when he returns he finds out that his daughter has been:a. totally defiant and dishonoring to the nanny…
or
b. totally obedient and honoring to the nannyWell, if it was option a, you can be assured that the daughter was also being defiant to the father even though he wasn't even around.
If the option b occurred, you can be assured that the daughter was also being obedient and honoring to the father as well as the nanny, even though he wasn't around.Ultimately, she was honoring the father while she was showing honor to the nanny…right? Do you see that? So, in a similar way, when we honor the Son of God in the same way as we honor the Father, we ultimately are honoring the Father. We honor the Son BECAUSE we honor the Father…we worship the Son BECAUSE we worship the Father. We worship the Son as the Son and not as the Father, and we worship the Father as the Father and not the Son. Like the little girl in the story, she honored the nanny as the nanny. She did not honor the nanny as her father (by calling her “father” etc.) but she still honored the nanny.
So, with my understanding, you can worship the Son as God but not the Most High God. That would be for the Father alone.
Kathi
hi LU
well done i like your explanation,if we understand the total plan, as a whole picture, it is supported that way in the scriptures.
You asked me what it felt like to have the Holy Spirit ? If Christ is not in your heart than you dont have it. I ask you if Jesus is Lord?
katjo
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 22 2010,18:54) K
God the father is alone God and our lord is Jesus Christ also known as the WORD, amen.
t…and the Word was with God and was God! John 1:1
WJ
WJ
we went over this a million times,it is not possible to be with someone and be someone ,plus the rest of the scriptures do not support your thinking ,
this is why i keep telling you trinitarian s let way and see ,parable of the 10 virgin, 5 got in ,5 left out.
the Lord is God , they are one!
katjoQuote (terraricca @ Jan. 22 2010,19:08) WJ we went over this a million times,it is not possible to be with someone and be someone ,plus the rest of the scriptures do not support your thinking ,
this is why i keep telling you trinitarian s let way and see ,parable of the 10 virgin, 5 got in ,5 left out.
tTo you it is not possible, but Johns very own words says so!
WJ
WJ
to me it is understandable i have no problem with it ,but you have a problem to explain all the scriptures against it.MAYBE THIS CAN HELP EXPLAIN -(blue letter bible.com)The Trinity Was At Jesus' Baptism
We find all three members of the Trinity at the baptism of Jesus.
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16, 17).
God the Father acknowledged God the Son, while God the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus.
The Promise Of The Father
On the night of His betrayal, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit as another Comforter.
I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, that he may be with you forever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him or know him, but you know him because he abides with you and will be in you (John 14:16,17).
Jesus also said.
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you (John 14:26).
In preparing the disciples for their future ministry, Jesus, God the Son, tells them He will pray to God the Father to send the Helper, or Comforter. This is a clear distinction between all members of the Trinity.
Jesus referred to the Trinity later on that same night.
When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me (John 15:26).
The fact that Jesus repeated this truth to His disciples shows the importance of it.
Peter's Greeting Mentions The Three Together
We also find the members of the Trinity in greetings. In his greeting, Peter makes the distinction between the various members of the Trinity when he wrote to believers.
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure (1 Peter 1:2).
Paul's Benediction Links Them Together
We find the Trinity in the benedictions of the church. In the benediction at the end of 2 Corinthians, we have all three members of the Trinity involved.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all (2 Corinthians 13:14).
Paul linked all three members of the Trinity when speaking of the sending of the Holy Spirit.
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Galatians 4:6).
They Are Linked Together In Paul's Prayer
All three members are mentioned together by Paul when referring to prayer.
For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father (Ephesians 2:18).
All Three Are Linked To God's Salvation
Paul places the three together in speaking of salvation.
In him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation – having also believed, you were sealed in him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:13).
All Three Are Linked To The Death Of Christ
The writer to the Hebrews refers to all three members in speaking of Christ's death.
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God (Hebrews 9:14)
The Baptismal Formula Links The Three Members Of The Trinity
Trinitarian baptism was also practiced by the early church. This is based upon Jesus' command.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).
Following Jesus' command, a person was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each member of the Trinity was identified in the act of baptism. Although all three were identified, they were baptized into the name (singular) of each. This emphasized the unity of the Godhead.
Why In The Name Of Jesus
Some have seen a contradiction between Peter calling upon people to be baptized in the name of Jesus and Trinitarian baptism.
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
However the “name of Jesus” speaks of the authority of Jesus. This distinguishes baptism in the authority of Jesus from the previous baptism done by John the Baptist.
Access To God Is Through All The Members Of The Trinity
Access to God the Father is through the Son by means of the Spirit.
For through him [Jesus] both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In Him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together in the Spirit into a dwelling place for God (Ephesians 2:18-20).
Summary
The New Testament more clearly develops the doctrine of the Trinity. The three distinct members of the Trinity are mentioned a number of times together in the New Testament. We find them at Jesus' baptism where the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus like a dove and God the Father acknowledged Jesus from heaven. Jesus said the water baptism of all believers was to be done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The promise of the Holy Spirit also involved all members of the Trinity. Each member of the Trinity is mentioned in greetings to the church. The Trinity is also mentioned in benedictions. The Bible says that each of the three members of the Trinity provides access to God the Father In all of these examples the members of the Trinity are always assumed to be equals.
katjoTerraicca-You are literally just denying scripture, because its in that post. Here is why going to a good bible study(church) helps out;Here is some of my study literature. “CHARECTERISTICS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT' He is a person( He speaks Rev 2;7, He intercedes, Romans 8;26, He has eternal intellect 1Corinth. 2;11 He has a will 1 Corinth. 12;11, and He has emotions, Romans 15;30 . “He is a diven person”(He is eternal Hebrews 9;14 He is all powerful Luke 1;35 He is everywhere present Psalm 139;7 He is all- knowing 1Corith. 2;10,11 and He is called God Acts 5;3,4, He is the creator Genesis 1;1,2 LOOK THEM UP!
katjo
katjo
the fact that i am a carpenter,and a welder,and a truck driver does not mean i am a women.
got it
???LU,
Your example is fine and true except for one thing:
Honor and Worship are not the same things and you have mistakenly mixed up the two.
When one Worships one effectively offers oneself, or a precious belonging (a Sacrifice) to the one being Worshipped.
When one worships an idol one is offering up one's soul to that idol or else perhaps another sacrificial item.
Unfortunately, the Scripture writer chose to use the wird Worship fir dven simple acts of honor and reverence, which confuses the whole issue.
Honor, reverence, glorifying, praising, etc, are all things that one man can do to another where the situation is warranted.
Bowing down and touching the feet of another person is an excessive form of honoring bordering on Worship.
Simply bowing your head is not Worshipping. Most often it is anct act of reverence for the authourative position of the other (e.g. A Priest, Monarch, President, someone who has performed worthwhile great works, or simply, a Senior in a special Schooling)
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 23 2010,16:50) LU, Your example is fine and true except for one thing:
Honor and Worship are not the same things and you have mistakenly mixed up the two.
When one Worships one effectively offers oneself, or a precious belonging (a Sacrifice) to the one being Worshipped.
When one worships an idol one is offering up one's soul to that idol or else perhaps another sacrificial item.
Unfortunately, the Scripture writer chose to use the wird Worship fir dven simple acts of honor and reverence, which confuses the whole issue.
Honor, reverence, glorifying, praising, etc, are all things that one man can do to another where the situation is warranted.
Bowing down and touching the feet of another person is an excessive form of honoring bordering on Worship.
Simply bowing your head is not Worshipping. Most often it is anct act of reverence for the authourative position of the other (e.g. A Priest, Monarch, President, someone who has performed worthwhile great works, or simply, a Senior in a special Schooling)
JustAskin,
Do you really believe that if you offer yourself to the Son of God, that it would not also please the Father? Do you think that the Father would despise that?When we offer ourselves to the Son of God, who is devoted to and only does the will of His Father, we are in a sense offering ourselves to the one He serves, who has ultimately given us TO His Son.
The Father has given His Son to us and we would be wise to give ourselves to the Father and the Son…both. We have been bought for them, to be loved by them, and to return that love and devotion.
On the otherhand, if we give ourselves to an idol, whether it is money or a spouse as if that idol is what we worship, then the Father would despise that and be jealous. I do not believe He would ever be jealous of our worship towards His Son along with Himself.
Would you ever think that what the Son asked of you would be against the Father's will? It is quite different to worship the Son and His Father than it is to worship money, alcohol, or our comfort, etc.
I think you can relax about this otherwise it can become a focus off your path to love the Father and the Son and to trust both of them and then to extend that love to others. God knows your heart and will show you what breaks His heart if you ask. If worshipping the Son too breaks His heart, He will show you.
Kathi
LU,
Jesus gave an explicit example – and for no simple reason, He knew people would as the same question.
He said ' You Shall Worship the Lord (God the Father) and Him only Shall you serve'The word “Shall” is a directive, equivalent to an order, something that is not desputable.
So, No, I don't think God would be pleased that we worship his Son, even if we mistakenly feel that we are worshipping Him by doing so.
Praise, honor, glorify the Son but Worship the Father!!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
