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JA said:
Quote So, TT, do we believe the Jews/Hebrews or do we believe Jesus?
JA,You don't listen too good. It was the APOSTLE JOHN who said that Jesus made Himself equal with God. So he was in agreement with the Jews for he was himself a Jew and knew the cultural implications underlying Jesus' claim.
If a son was not equal with the father in Hebrew culture, then why was it blasphemous for Jesus to claim that He was God's only Son?
I am surprised you're posting again so soon. I would have licked my wounds for a couple of days had I got beaten up the way you did yesterday.
thinker
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 17 2010,19:45) W.J. John 1:1 The Word is God but not the Jehovah God.
IreneThe JWs believe Jesus was “a god”. That would make John a Polytheist!
The litteral meaning of John 1:1c is “God was the Word”.
If you believe Jesus is just “a god” then you are a Polytheist and deny Pauls own words, especially when you claim you serve Jesus and he is your “god”!
You keep saying God is a title yet you do not call Jesus by that title, why? Is Jesus your “god”?
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and “THAT THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE“. 1 Cor 8:4
Jesus according to scriptures is either fully One God with the Father and the Holy Spirit or he is not god at all!
There is no way around this truth!
Blessings WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,18:27) I haven't looked closely at that nor asked for Holy Spirit help but if you want to challenge me on it then just ask me!
JAFirst why don't you click here. and read an excellent Exegesis on John 1:1 by a true brother!
Then if you want to set up a debate between just you and I in the debates thread as to whether the Scriptures teach Jesus is God, then I am game!
Blessings WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,18:25) WJ, I see that all your trinitarians 'proofs' have come down to one verse: John 1:1!
JAWhat are you talking about? We have shown you many scriptures that prove Jesus is God.
But how many does it take for you to believe?
There is only “One” scripture that says “God is a Spirit”, but do you just throw that out because it is only one verse?
Yep, do what the antitrinitarians do, use white out and blot them out so that you do not have to accept them, but rather hold on to manmade doctrines spawned from the heretic Arius and mothered by the JWs!
Blessings WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 19 2010,02:56) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 18 2010,20:44) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,20:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,08:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,16:10) Hi WJ,
They knew from Ps2 the unusual nature of God's Son given full authority on earth to work as God's agent. They should have known from the same verses that he was not that God. Do you?
NHAre you calling John a liar?
He is the one that narrated Jesus being equal to God!
How can any being be equal to God and not be God?
WJ
WJ,Yes indeed. It is John who said that Jesus made Himself equal with God. If he was wrong then we cannot trust his narratives elsewhere.
thinker
Hi Thinker,What bible are you and WJ reading out of?
Do you guy's just dismiss these verses as if they are not there?John 14:28: Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me,
ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I(Jesus).John 10:29: My (Jesus')Father, which gave
them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
ED J,The apostle John said that Jesus made Himself EQUAL with God.
The word “greater” does not necessarily imply superiority. Jesus told His disciples that they would do “greater” works than His own. This was not true qualitatively but rather quantitatively.
The Father was not qualitatively greater than Jesus. In His flesh Jesus was limited. So the Father was greater quantitatively.
John explicitly said that Jesus made Himself EQUAL with God. Thomas addressed JESUS saying, “My Lord and my God.”
I guess that Thomas was an idolater.
thinker
Hi TT,Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD…
I want to reason things out with you, rather than to wrestle with you!The verse TT refers to (for all the readers) is John 5:18.
John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had
broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.John 5:18 has a direct correlation to Philip 2:6!
Number correlations(Gematria) can help to illustrate the significance of Philip.2:6.Philip. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [Christ Mind=117]
2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with “GOD”=26(YÄ=26):Christ had the same mindset as his Father …117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)!
This is the same mindset that we should have as well, because
“GOD The Father”=117 is Father to ALL BELIEVERS! (Eph.1:17)Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgWell,
I think there is another option to a 3 in 1 Godhead. I think that the wording is not correct in the trinity doctrine. I could accept a doctrine of the Godhead if it stated that there are two persons in the one Godhead, the Father and the Son united by the Spirit of the Father, not equal, not co-eternal. The Father always existing, the Son begotten of the Father before creation.So there we have:
one Godhead (theos),
one true God (because He always existed-the Father, the Most High God)
united as one with His only begotten Son, the begotten God,
by the Spirit of the Father.That is what I could believe as a doctrine.
KathiAs far as the Pharisees thinking that Jesus was making Himself out to be equal to God because He said that He was the Son of God, well, think about this:
If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,11:58) As far as the Pharisees thinking that Jesus was making Himself out to be equal to God because He said that He was the Son of God, well, think about this: If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it
KathiYea, we get it. John didn't think that Jesus was the Father but thought that he was equal to the Father by saying God was his “Own” Father!
More like if a puppy could speak and say I am equal to my father, for I am completely 100% dog just like my Father! My Father is greater than I at this time because he has more authority and power, but when I gain all the strength, and power that my Father has then I will be equal to him in every way even in authority!
Get it?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,03:48) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,18:25) WJ, I see that all your trinitarians 'proofs' have come down to one verse: John 1:1!
JAWhat are you talking about? We have shown you many scriptures that prove Jesus is God.
But how many does it take for you to believe?
There is only “One” scripture that says “God is a Spirit”, but do you just throw that out because it is only one verse?
Yep, do what the antitrinitarians do, use white out and blot them out so that you do not have to accept them, but rather hold on to manmade doctrines spawned from the heretic Arius and mothered by the JWs!
Blessings WJ
WJ,I can't believe that JA has the audacity to say that trinitarians invoke only one verse. This is totally unreal after the days worth of discourse we have had with him. I seriously think JA needs a reality check.
We have also answered the argument about God being a spirit. This does not mean that He cannot reveal Himself in a tangible form. The Holy spirit manifested Himself in the bodily form of a dove. Many patriarchs saw God in human form in the old testament.
thinker
Kathi said;
Quote If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it We're interested only in the socio-historical implications of Jesus' claim. Please argue from the Eastern, Hebrew culture that Christ's claim was not a claim of equality. Your Western ideas about father and son relationships are not at all valid.
thinker
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 19 2010,03:51) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 19 2010,02:56) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 18 2010,20:44) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,20:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,08:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,16:10) Hi WJ,
They knew from Ps2 the unusual nature of God's Son given full authority on earth to work as God's agent. They should have known from the same verses that he was not that God. Do you?
NHAre you calling John a liar?
He is the one that narrated Jesus being equal to God!
How can any being be equal to God and not be God?
WJ
WJ,Yes indeed. It is John who said that Jesus made Himself equal with God. If he was wrong then we cannot trust his narratives elsewhere.
thinker
Hi Thinker,What bible are you and WJ reading out of?
Do you guy's just dismiss these verses as if they are not there?John 14:28: Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me,
ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I(Jesus).John 10:29: My (Jesus')Father, which gave
them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
ED J,The apostle John said that Jesus made Himself EQUAL with God.
The word “greater” does not necessarily imply superiority. Jesus told His disciples that they would do “greater” works than His own. This was not true qualitatively but rather quantitatively.
The Father was not qualitatively greater than Jesus. In His flesh Jesus was limited. So the Father was greater quantitatively.
John explicitly said that Jesus made Himself EQUAL with God. Thomas addressed JESUS saying, “My Lord and my God.”
I guess that Thomas was an idolater.
thinker
Hi TT,Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD…
I want to reason things out with you, rather than to wrestle with you!The verse TT refers to (for all the readers) is John 5:18.
John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had
broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.John 5:18 has a direct correlation to Philip 2:6!
Number correlations(Gematria) can help to illustrate the significance of Philip.2:6.Philip. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [Christ Mind=117]
2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with “GOD”=26(YÄ=26):Christ had the same mindset as his Father …117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)!
This is the same mindset that we should have as well, because
“GOD The Father”=117 is Father to ALL BELIEVERS! (Eph.1:17)Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
thinker
Kathi said:
Quote If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it Then why did Jesus ride into Jerusalem as Israel's King as prophecy foretold?
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,12:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,11:58) As far as the Pharisees thinking that Jesus was making Himself out to be equal to God because He said that He was the Son of God, well, think about this: If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it
KathiYea, we get it. John didn't think that Jesus was the Father but thought that he was equal to the Father by saying God was his “Own” Father!
More like if a puppy could speak and say I am equal to my father, for I am completely 100% dog just like my Father! My Father is greater than I at this time because he has more authority and power, but when I gain all the strength, and power that my Father has then I will be equal to him in every way even in authority!
Get it?
Blessings WJ
Hi Keith,
Well, I think your wording is not what I am saying.You wrote:
Quote John didn't think that Jesus was the Father but thought that he was equal to the Father by saying God was his “Own” Father! I would change that to say:
John didn't think that Jesus was the Father but thought that he was equal to the same nature of the Father by saying God was his own Father.In the case of God, if the father was always existent and the son wasn't, then becoming always existent could never be achieved by the son, and therefore could never make them able to be equal.
Kathi
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,12:38) Kathi said: Quote If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it Then why did Jesus ride into Jerusalem as Israel's King as prophecy foretold?
thinker
Thinker,
Jesus is a king but not a king who is the source of everything in existence like the Father. Jesus will never be the king who was the source of everything in existence.Hi All
Concerning the claim that Jesus was making himself equal to God. The Jews knew full well the implication of Jesus claims even more so than us for they were there and heard his own words themselves.
Lets look at the verses in their context with a little background information!
5:16 Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began persecuting him. 5:17 So he told them, “My Father is working until now, and I too am working. John 5:16, 17 NET
The NET was translated by 25 scholars who had access to over 60,000 translator’s notes. This is what they say about this verse, emphasis mine.
“My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection.
Then to make sure they understand his claim, Yeshua continues…
So Jesus answered them, “I tell you the solemn truth, the Son can do nothing on his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. John 5:19
The NET commentates on this verse…
What works does the Son do likewise? The same that the Father does – and the same that the rabbis recognized as legitimate works of God on the Sabbath (see note on working in v. 17). (1) Jesus grants life (just as the Father grants life) on the Sabbath. But as the Father gives physical life on the Sabbath, so the Son grants spiritual life (John 5:21; note the “greater things” mentioned in v. 20). (2) Jesus judges (determines the destiny of people) on the Sabbath, just as the Father judges those who die on the Sabbath, because the Father has granted authority to the Son to judge (John 5:22-23). But this is not all. Not only has this power been granted to Jesus in the present; it will be his in the future as well. In v. 28 there is a reference not to spiritually dead (only) but also physically dead. At their resurrection they respond to the Son as well.
So you see, We are not alone in our interpretation of these words. We can split hairs all day long about John’s comment “but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God”. Were they John's own words and belief, or was he simply stating what the Jews believed? I think it is both, and the evidence is found in the context and John’s use of the word “theos” in referring to Yeshua, the Word that was with God and was God in John 1:1, and his witness of Thomas confession without rebuke or correction by Yeshua or himself in John 20:28.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3, Col 1:16
Everything that was made was made by and through Yeshua and for him. In fact by Yeshua all things consist. Col 1:17
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt 11:27, Luke 10:22,
For anyone to make the claim that you can only know God through a mere man and that God can only be revealed through him in the Hebrew faith and under the Mosaic law would be Idolatry!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,12:39) In the case of God, if the father was always existent and the son wasn't, then becoming always existent could never be achieved by the son, and therefore could never make them able to be equal.
KathiThat of course is a big if and is not proven in scriptures!
This is circular because if the Son was not always existent then the Father was not always existent either!
So at some point according to you the Father must have come into existence when the Son did, if that is so then the Father is not from everlasting to everlasting!
Which would mean at some point God had to change and become a Father. But we know that he was the same yesterday, today and forever!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,13:06) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,12:39) In the case of God, if the father was always existent and the son wasn't, then becoming always existent could never be achieved by the son, and therefore could never make them able to be equal.
KathiThat of course is a big if and is not proven in scriptures!
This is circular because if the Son was not always existent then the Father was not always existent either!
So at some point according to you the Father must have come into existence when the Son did, if that is so then the Father is not from everlasting to everlasting!
Which would mean at some point God had to change and become a Father. But we know that he was the same yesterday, today and forever!
WJ
Oh Keith,
You might not see it proven in scriptures to satisfy the one who has been blinded (I'm not implying anyone here), but it certainly can be backed by scriptures.You said:
Quote This is circular because if the Son was not always existent then the Father was not always existent either! There is your big if that can not be backed up in scripture nevertheless proven, imo.
That is like saying Adam, the first man, couldn't have a son because his son would not be the first man like his father. Nor could he have a son because his son could not be formed out of clay like his father was. Do you see the fallacy with that argument?
Also, I think that the saying that God is the same yesterday, today and forever is not a blanket statement about everything about God. For instance, God can't be angry forever and not angry forever.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2010,04:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,12:38) Kathi said: Quote If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it Then why did Jesus ride into Jerusalem as Israel's King as prophecy foretold?
thinker
Thinker,
Jesus is a king but not a king who is the source of everything in existence like the Father. Jesus will never be the king who was the source of everything in existence.
Kathi,Jesus was THE King of Israel. And He is indeed the source of everything like His own Father:
“and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” Hebrews 5:9
and,
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” John 5:26
I once thought that this was speaking about Christ's pre-existence. But I have changed my mind. The word “to have” is the Greek “scheo” which means “to hold.”
“For as the Father holds life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to hold life in Himself.”
Jesus “holds” life in Himself and He may give that life to men. He is therefore the source of eternal life.
“In Him was life….” (John 1:4)
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote We can split hairs all day long about John’s comment “but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God”.
WJ,This I believe was the crux of the matter. Jesus claimed that God was His own Father. The Greek “idios” (own) is present in the original language. This was tantamount to the claim of equality with God.
thinker
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