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SeekingTruth,
Quote I agree no angel true to God would accept worship (never said they would) but neither should the Son of God if it also was inappropriate
I am saying that what was done to Jesus WAS NOT Worship. Your own definition does not match with what happened to Jesus.
Kings and Holy men were equally treated in the samw way but noone said that they were being worshipped!The same word used to Christ was also used (Greek-Hebrew-Greek) of human persons (Greek speakers help me out here!). The Scripture translators, for their own reasons, chose to interpret the greek word as 'Worship'. They could just as easily used the word 'obeisance' which carries the same action
The people in Jesus' time were highly religious and prostrated themselves only too readily before anyone who had any power or authority. Prostrating oneself and doing obeisance would be a start of an act of Worship but not actual worship itself.
Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another – and for this reason God disapproves of such acts – because ONLY HE should you give over yourself to in such a way – It was HE who gave you life and ONLY to Him should you give it back.
How many people have been so overawed by another that that bow down and kiss that person's feet, putting themselves in the lowest position possible below another, offering your neck or back as a footstool, slaves were made to do this also. Does this mean they were worshipping – such practices are universal – amongst Middle Eastern cultures, Asian, Japanees, Africans etc, but it is never considered as Worship (Look at the difference when an Idol is worshipped – Is there not a Sacrifice offered?)- none the less it is dangerously close to Worship!
In today's society very little Worship is carried out and so the word has been relegated from it's Sacrificial level to that of simply 'Offering Praises' by means of singing songs and so people believe that when they sing songs to Jesus or to God they are Worshipping him.
SeekingTruth, read Kathi's posts. Kathi says she is Worshipping Jesus and God when she sings. She posted a song to 'prove' it. Please look at it and you will see that it is simply a Praise to Jesus – also she is careful to make it say that “it is to God” what she is doing. So even she knows that there is danger in what she is proposing and walks the tightrope carefully.
Your definition of Worship. I suggest that Worship is more of a private adoration and obedience than public outcry in singing and praising (Jesus said that we should pray in 'secret' – not like the loud Jews and pharasees who seek the praise of men that they make long prayers in the market place)
Do I sleep, Yes. But I also access the internet at work during quiet times and at home at night.
JustAskin said:
Quote Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another – and for this reason God disapproves of such acts – because ONLY HE should you give over yourself to in such a way – It was HE who gave you life and ONLY to Him should you give it back. TO ALL:
JA has just opened the door for trinitarians! JA said,
“Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another”
This is exactly what Jesus commanded us to do if we are to be His disciples:
Luke 9:23-24: We must SACRIFICE are own lives for Christ's sake:
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
Boom! All JA's elements of worship are in Jesus' statement above! JA said that worship is giving oneself “ENTIRELY IN COMPLETE AND SELFLESS SERVITUDE.” Jesus said WE ARE to DENY ourselves DAILY and to LOSE OUR OWN LIVES FOR HIM.
Therefore, by JA's own definition Jesus required worship from His disciples.
JA has opened the door big time! Just wait until WJ sees what JA did for us!
THANK YOU JA!
btw, JA has said that I am led like a dog on a chain. Today he said that I crawled from under a rock. It looks like worship is in JA's vocabulary but not in his deeds.
thinker
ththinker! When it says that the Father God is above all, don't you believe so? When it says that, there is none other LORD God beside Him, don't you believe that? When it says that the Holy Spirit is the Father God's Spirit don't you believe that? The Holy Spirit is not the third Person of the trinity. The trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God. God the Father is the Most High God, Jehovah there is none beside Him.
Deut. 4:35
Deut. 6:4
1 Corinth. 8:4
Ephesians 4:6
John 14:28 and that is not just when He walked on earth. Jehovah God will always be above all IMO
The trinity was first instituted by Constantine and it was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian that first came up with it. The first Christians did not keep it.Math, 15:9 “In vain they do worship Me teaching the doctrine and commandment of men.” The trinity doctrine is such a doctrine. It is not of God, and we should all prove to our-self whether what we believe is correct or not. Of course YOU seen these Scriptures many times. I am putting them up again, because we have new members.
Peace and Love IreneTT,
your desparation to make a claim on me is futile:
What is “The Sake of Christ”?
It is to do the WILL OF GOD his Father and Our Father…
Please…. try something else or back off…
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 17 2010,11:12) JustAskin said: Quote If you worship Jesus because you think you are worshipping God THEN you are making Jesus into an IDOL.
JA,You dissent from the rest of the creation. Revelation 5:13 says that every creature in heaven and in earth and under the earth worships the Lamb with the Father:
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”We are not interested in your persoanl views on the subject. Just give us the scriptures!
thinker
Hi JackThe problem that they have is there are no NT examples of the word “proskyneō” being directed to any other than the Father and Jesus, where it was not discouraged, and the one example where there was, King Agrippa was eaten with worms for not giving glory to God!
In every case where an Angel or man was addressed in worship the Angel or person forbid it.
Except with Jesus. Jesus never once discouraged it or even implied that they were not to “worship him”.
In fact Jesus used the same word “proskyneō” in John 4:24 in referring to the “True worship” to the Father!
HMMM! Why did he do that?
The burden of proof is on the gainsayers to show that the word “worship” (proskyneō) was practiced on men or angels without being discouraged!
The burden of proof is also on the gainsayers to prove that the word “proskyneō” that is done to Jesus has a different meaning than what Jesus said was to be done to the Father!
“That all men should honour the Son, **EVEN AS** they honour the Father“. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him John 5:23
If the word “proskyneō” for worship to Jesus only means honour, then in every way that we honour the Father, we are to honour the Son!
That my friend is “True Worship”!
Blessings WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 17 2010,12:02) JustAskin said: Quote Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another – and for this reason God disapproves of such acts – because ONLY HE should you give over yourself to in such a way – It was HE who gave you life and ONLY to Him should you give it back. TO ALL:
JA has just opened the door for trinitarians! JA said,
“Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another”
This is exactly what Jesus commanded us to do if we are to be His disciples:
Luke 9:23-24: We must SACRIFICE are own lives for Christ's sake:
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
Boom! All JA's elements of worship are in Jesus' statement above! JA said that worship is giving oneself “ENTIRELY IN COMPLETE AND SELFLESS SERVITUDE.” Jesus said WE ARE to DENY ourselves DAILY and to LOSE OUR OWN LIVES FOR HIM.
Therefore, by JA's own definition Jesus required worship from His disciples.
JA has opened the door big time! Just wait until WJ sees what JA did for us!
THANK YOU JA!
btw, JA has said that I am led like a dog on a chain. Today he said that I crawled from under a rock. It looks like worship is in JA's vocabulary but not in his deeds.
thinker
JackTrue! No one could demand the life of another for himself unless it is God the Creator of all!
Not only that by Paul says he is a “Bondslave to Jesus” and a “Prisoner” of Jesus!
This kind of devotion to any being other than God would be Idolatry and a sin against the first commandment!
Anti-trinitarians as you say give lip service to their devotion to Jesus and play word games like it is to the Glory of the Father as if Jesus himself doesn't deserve the worship and glory due him!
Their is no difference in the worship given to the Father and Jesus by all of creation in Revelations!
It doesn't say we worship you God and we praise you Son of God!
They are praising and worshipping both the Father and the Son simultaneously!
Blessings! WJ
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 18 2010,04:26) ththinker! When it says that the Father God is above all, don't you believe so? When it says that, there is none other LORD God beside Him, don't you believe that? When it says that the Holy Spirit is the Father God's Spirit don't you believe that? The Holy Spirit is not the third Person of the trinity. The trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God. God the Father is the Most High God, Jehovah there is none beside Him.
Deut. 4:35
Deut. 6:4
1 Corinth. 8:4
Ephesians 4:6
John 14:28 and that is not just when He walked on earth. Jehovah God will always be above all IMO
The trinity was first instituted by Constantine and it was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian that first came up with it. The first Christians did not keep it.Math, 15:9 “In vain they do worship Me teaching the doctrine and commandment of men.” The trinity doctrine is such a doctrine. It is not of God, and we should all prove to our-self whether what we believe is correct or not. Of course YOU seen these Scriptures many times. I am putting them up again, because we have new members.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,Your own husband has admitted that Jesus Christ is “over all.”
Georg said:
Quote This is how it reads in my Bible. Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Christ is over all, and that is why Paul blesses God for.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=310
There it is Irene! Your own husband said that Christ is “OVER all.”
Here is the kicker Irene. The word “above” in reference to the Father being “above all” and the word “over” in reference to Christ being “over all” are the SAME word in the Greek. The word is “epi.”
Ephesians 4:6: one God and Father of all, who is above (epi) all, and through all, and in you all.
Romans 9:5: of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over (epi) all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Your own husband said that Christ is “OVER all.” It is the SAME Greek word used of the Father being “ABOVE all.”
You all are giving me this debate on a silver platter today. First JA with his definition of worship which is the same as our service to Christ. And Georg too admits that Christ is “ABOVE (epi) all.”
It couldn't get any better today!
thinker
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,12:40) TT, your desparation to make a claim on me is futile:
What is “The Sake of Christ”?
It is to do the WILL OF GOD his Father and Our Father…
Please…. try something else or back off…
Ha!Are you a “Bondslave of Jesus”? Are you his “Prisoner”!
Do you give this kind of devotion to a mere man?
And if so how does that work with the first commandment?
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,13:14) WJ, Honor is not worship. even man can be, and is, honored.
Try again.
JAHonour has varying degrees! To what degree do you honour God?
Is it like you honour the President of the USA?
To the degree that you honour God you are to honour Jesus!
Get it?
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,04:40) TT, your desparation to make a claim on me is futile:
What is “The Sake of Christ”?
It is to do the WILL OF GOD his Father and Our Father…
Please…. try something else or back off…
JA,You just ain't owning up to what you said and the implications. Jesus said “FOR MY sake.” By YOUR OWN definition of worship you have inferred that Jesus required worship from His disciples! Now you play games with your words.
It is you who is desperate.
I am forever grateful to you. You just gave WJ and I this debate!
thinker
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,05:14) WJ, Honor is not worship. even man can be, and is, honored.
Try again.
Honor is worship if it is given to Jesus “EVEN AS” it is given to the Father. The degree to which you honor the Son is the degree to which you honor the Father.Psalm 2:12 Honor the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.Honor here is no less than trust. The Psalms repeatedly forbid us to trust in man. Yet we are “blessed” if we trust in the Son. Ergo….
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote It doesn't say we worship you God and we praise you Son of God! They are praising and worshipping both the Father and the Son simultaneously!
Amen brother! It says that “every creature in heaven and in earth and under the earth” give glory and honor to the Father and the Lamb. Oh, wait a minute…maybe the Bible is wrong. It should say, “Every creature but JA….”
thinker
TT,
What are you babbling on about.
“Honor is Worship”? Come on – are you for real? How many times are MEN Honored on a daily basis all over the world.
They must be some crazy lot of Worshipping going on World wide – Can one Honor the Pope (q? to Catholics), Can you honor their parents, can one honor their spouse – Worship – Same as Worship you say?What's your point again?
TT,
“Praise, Honor and Glorify God and Christ”
“Worship God alone”What have I written that is ambiguous or profits your claims?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 17 2010,21:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2010,23:38) Hi ST,
Does God have a bodily form??
He is invisible.You deny the human vessel Jesus.
Is it wise to deny the Son of our God?
Nick,
Hebrews 11:27
By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible.How did Moses see “God”
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God,Could it of been His Son?
Genesis 32:30
It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”Was it the invisible Father he saw and wrestled with?
John 14:9
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.Scripture supports that the Father is seen through His Son so I maintain that if I'm seeing the Father when I look at Jesus and I worship, it is the Father who is being worshipped
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.As to denying the human vessel, do you believe that Jesus is still just a corruptible human? I in no way implied or even believe that Jesus was anything more then 100% human from conception to resurrection, I do believe that He was more before and after said time period.
Now I also believe He had authority and power given to Him during His life on earth, but not the ALL authority and power He has now.
My opinion, Wm
Hi ST,
We should believe Jesus when he said none have seen God. Many have been blessed to see some manifestation of God but none have seen Him.Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,05:46) TT, What are you babbling on about.
“Honor is Worship”? Come on – are you for real? How many times are MEN Honored on a daily basis all over the world.
They must be some crazy lot of Worshipping going on World wide – Can one Honor the Pope (q? to Catholics), Can you honor their parents, can one honor their spouse – Worship – Same as Worship you say?What's your point again?
Give it up JA!You CLEARLY said:“Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another”
Jesus said:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
Be a man and own up to the implications of what you said! Or continue on the run!
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2010,10:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2010,17:00) Hi lU,
Whatever plants not planted by my Father will be pulled out.
One of Satan's favourite deceptions is that Jesus is another god who came to seek worship.So buildings fill every town with the confused worshipping him and other gods.
Hi Nick,
You said:Quote One of Satan's favourite deceptions is that Jesus is another god who came to seek worship. That is a huge claim. I want to see you back that up with scripture. It needs to be about Jesus specifically.
Hi LU,
If you really believe Jesus is another god who came to seek worship to himself I think you have a greater scriptural challenge on your hands.Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,05:55) TT,
“Praise, Honor and Glorify God and Christ”
“Worship God alone”What have I written that is ambiguous or profits your claims?
JA,Here is YOUR OWN definition of worship:
“Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another”
Jesus said:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 17 2010,14:03) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,05:55) TT,
“Praise, Honor and Glorify God and Christ”
“Worship God alone”What have I written that is ambiguous or profits your claims?
JA,Here is YOUR OWN definition of worship:
“Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another”
Jesus said:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
thinker
JackIt really is a good definition of the word! Thats another scriptural reason why Trinitarians believe that Jesus is God in every sense like the Father, for there is no difference in the honour, worship, and praise to be given to Jesus as to the Father.
The kind of devotion we give to Jesus would be Idolatry under the Mosaic law!
YHWH has not changed his mind for he would not share this kind of Glory with another that is not his equal in nature!
Blessings WJ
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