The most high god

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 16 2010,23:27)

the scriptures says “no man can see God and live”this is a true statement .
Christ says “no one as seen the father but the Son” this is a true statement.

to me my understanding of all scriptures tell me ;that God the father is so powerful that it is impossible for men to fathom the concept of is power.

if you imply now that Christ occupied a Godly position yes i agree ,but all of creation is taken out of God but not directly only Christ is direct from the father.

this is my scriptural understanding.

terraricca,
All you have said is true. Not only does the Son of God occupy a Godly position but has a Godly nature also. Nothing begets another of a different nature and neither did the Most High God. God beget God, God with a god nature beget a son with a god nature and then gave Him Godly responsibilities and duties (creation for example) and gave Him a creation to be under His authority.

Kathi

January 17, 2010 at 5:29 am#170582

Participant

LU
i do not understand God beget God.? were you want to go with this???

January 17, 2010 at 12:37 pm#170609

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 17 2010,00:29)

LU
i do not understand God beget God.?

were you want to go with this?

terraricca,
Is it hard for you to understand these:

Man begets man
Animal begets animal

If that is not hard for you to understand, then why is it hard for you to understand:

God begets god

Maybe you haven't considered the word “God/god” as a classification or a type of being like man or animal.

I'm just going for truth and understanding, I would bet that is what you want also. Think about it…I know it is simple…so simple that it is missed, in my opinion.

Blessings,
Kathi

January 17, 2010 at 2:55 pm#170613

Participant

Terra,
What you say could be me speaking also. Ask me if I am thrilled…?

Lu, also but this bit … Like Terra, I'm not so sure.

By coincident … I was looking into this matter earlier this morning.

Question 1: By the Scriptures – at what point or time was Jesus 'Begotten'?

Question 2: What is the meaning of the Word 'Beget'/'Begotten'?

Question 3: What Scriptural passages attest to the use of the term 'Begotten Son'?

(I need to check on a passage and come back)

January 17, 2010 at 5:50 pm#170621

Participant

LU
i have told you that Jesus has a godly position because of is creation be first.
what i understand from your way of thought is you try to establish if God create God or a duplicate being all part of him,is it ?

if so this would not make sense with is plan to start creation.

January 17, 2010 at 8:17 pm#170628

Participant

Terra,
There is nothing in scripture that makes claim to whether Jesus was created or not – The only thing we know is that he was “Begotten of God” and after that we move into the area of speculation (where everyone's plausible views must be acknowledged as possible!)

Mine is this:
Begetting is not the same as “Giving Birth to” nor “Being Created” nor does it refer to the Firstborn of a species by age.
Begetting refers to the spiritual acquiring another for a headship or Inheritance by being Chosen [from amongst many].

In the time of the Israelites a King (and Priests) was Anointed with oil by a Priest.

Anointing a king was equivalent to crowning him; in fact, in Israel a crown was not required (1 Samuel 16:13; 2 Samuel 2:4, etc.). Thus David was anointed as king by the prophet Samuel: “Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward…”—1 Samuel 16:13

King David was called “the Begotten Son of God” as a Human person although he was not the Firstborn of his Father. He was not given birth to “By God” and he was already “Created” at the time of his Begetting by God.

Also: “… By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; …”
Isaac was not the 'only' Son of Abraham nor was he Abraham's Firstborn – but he was the one in whom the 'promise' of God – the Inheritance was given.

Saul and Solomon were both also Anointed with oil but were not called “Begotten” as they went on to commit sins abhorrent to God (yes, David did commit some 'lesser' sins but God is the judge of him)

Jesus was Anointed – not with Oil but with a greater thing – The Holy Spirit: Luke 3:22 “…the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

And in another place God says of Jesus: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?” echoing words spoken to David thus Jesus' Begetting' is associated with David's and we know that Jesus is our reigning Lord and King.

The Anointing with the Holy Spirit is, of course, only for the sake of Man – Jesus was already “Son of God” from before his descendancy to earth for the task appointed to him by his Father so it still leaves the question: “When did he become the Son of God”

Since Scripture passages and verses are always qualified elsewhere here is my speculation (It is not to be held as fact as I have already said)

Now, since the general theme of “begetting” seems to be that the Inheritance goes to the one amongst many who shows them self to be Most Worthy (And remember that God is a faultless judge).

We are told in 1 Samuel 9:2 that Saul was a young man, tall and handsome: “2 [Kish -Saul's father] had a son named Saul, an impressive young man without equal among the Israelites—a head taller than any of the others”. There might be another reason for God choosing Saul to be King but none the less eventually Saul Sinned and was deposed and David was appointed in his stead.

Bearing this in mind, Ezekiel 28 has God saying this concerning Satan:

Quote

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper,
the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast
created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst
of the *stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy [industry/works] they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of
the **mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

(*'stones' apparently means 'angels')
(** 'mountain of God' could mean 'Heavenly Place')

Here we see Satan – an anointed Cherub and [one of the closest angels to God] who has sinned and is removed from his position in heaven.

Now add Psalm 45:7 concerning Jesus:
“You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

Now add back in the decree of God: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

Note that Jesus is the only one who is called “the ONLY Begotten SON” of God – The Promised ONE of God (Echo: Abraham/Isaac) (There is none other that will be called to the Kingship of God's heavenly kingdom.)

This is my Plausible idea.

January 18, 2010 at 12:57 am#170648

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 17 2010,09:55)

Terra,
What you say could be me speaking also. Ask me if I am thrilled…?

Lu, also but this bit … Like Terra, I'm not so sure.

By coincident … I was looking into this matter earlier this morning.

Question 1: By the Scriptures – at what point or time was Jesus 'Begotten'?

Question 2: What is the meaning of the Word 'Beget'/'Begotten'?

Question 3: What Scriptural passages attest to the use of the term 'Begotten Son'?

(I need to check on a passage and come back)

JustAskin,
These are good questions and I will give you my thoughts for you to consider.

Quote

Question 2: What is the meaning of the Word 'Beget'/'Begotten'?

Here is the definition of monogenes which is often translated as “only begotten” from Strong's concordance:
NT:3439
monogenh
monogenes (mon-og-en-ace'); from NT:3441 and NT:1096; only-born, i.e. sole:

KJV – only (begotten, child).

Here is the definition of gennao which is often translated as “begotten” as opposed to “only begotten”:

NT:1080
genna
gennao (ghen-nah'-o); from a variation of NT:1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:

KJV – bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Monogenes is in these verses for example:
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASU

John 3:18
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NASU

Gennao is found here for example:

Heb 1:5
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
NASU

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
KJV

Quote

Question 1: By the Scriptures – at what point or time was Jesus 'Begotten'?

My opinion, He likely became the only begotten in a literal sense (monogenes) on day one of creation when God said “Let there be Light”.

He became begotten (gennao) in Hebrews 1 figuratively on the day He rose from the dead. I believe this is an expression “today I have begotten you,” that was said as part of the Davidic king ceremony when celebrating the one who finally begins his rule over the kingdom. Many men were told this and is totally different than being called the “ONLY BEGOTTEN” Son.

Quote

Question 3: What Scriptural passages attest to the use of the term 'Begotten Son'?

See above. Do you have an exhaustive concordance? It is easy to see all the places where these two words are used.

I hope this helps
Kathi

January 18, 2010 at 1:30 am#170651

Participant

hi JA
you right,but God is spirit the expretion” begotten Son' is alegory image ,Christ creation;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
if you have a beginning this means you are created in any way or form,being the first would be mean that you are closer relate to the father than your own son would be to your father and the grand grand son would be less related to your father and so on.

what also i find important is that everything what is made or created was through and for christ,
and i believe that is the reason why he was the only posible candidate to lay downd his live to save all creation ,it was his to save ,
Rev 5:4 I cried and cried because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.
Rev 5:5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not cry! The Lion of the tribe of Judah has won the battle. He is the Root of David. He is able to break the seven seals and open the scroll.”
Rev 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb that looked as if he had been put to death. He stood in the center of the area around the throne. The Lamb was surrounded by the four living creatures and

i am glad in my hearth to know your love for our father in heaven,may God bless you

January 18, 2010 at 2:05 pm#170702

Participant

Terra and Lu,

I thank you both for your input and feedback.

Like I said, everyone's theory is possible if it is also plausible – at the end of any discussion there will be agreement and disagreement on all or some part of the issue.

Perhaps this is just one of those Faith issue. Certainly, I know that some things were wrong with what I wrote and it grieves me that I wrote it because it discredits me – I did ask forgiveness before i wrote it!!

At this point perhaps it's time to review the theme of this thread which is exploring “The Most High God”.

I think we agree the following:

1) He is NOT Jesus
2) He is ONE alone
3) He is above all other 'manmade gods' (There are no other Gods – There can be only ONE GOD)
4) He existed from eternity and to eternity
5) He is originated all things (and that includes his only begotten son therefore Jesus is not a God nor a god)
6) He is in all things
7) Only He is to be Worshipped by all creation*

The number 7 in the scriptures in synonomous with Completeness…

January 19, 2010 at 1:30 am#170796

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 18 2010,09:05)

Terra and Lu,

I thank you both for your input and feedback.

Like I said, everyone's theory is possible if it is also plausible – at the end of any discussion there will be agreement and disagreement on all or some part of the issue.

At this point perhaps it's time to review the theme of this thread which is exploring “The Most High God”.

I think we agree the following:

The number 7 in the scriptures in synonomous with Completeness…

Hi JA
I would never say that Jesus is not God but I would say that I don't think the Bible teaches that He is the Most High God, so I disagree with your point #5.

Also, your point #7 brings up the question of why the angels are instructed to worship the Son in Hebrews chapter 1.

Hebrews 1:6 But when he again brings 17 his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him!”

Kathi

January 19, 2010 at 2:26 am#170802

Participant

hi LU
you only see at the small picture wen you take verses,you have to understand the all plan of God the one that is from the beginning then all thing make sense,
God the father start to create or make or begotten it will not change nothing because the term is irrelevant since Christ is the first being that God has made or bring to live beside himself.
and the scriptures tell us , that all other things whatever it maybe was created through him ,so he is the instrument that God the father has used and also give it to him,
now what ever happen wen Satan stand against God ,God had decided to use him(Satan)
to fulfil is will,and Satan became as well an instrument to bring all of creation back to him,but one again though Christ,
so that at all times Christ the first of all creation remains the first in all things.
and at the end the very end Jesus turn all things to his father so that all glory Goes to the Father,the only true God.
.

January 19, 2010 at 2:30 am#170803

Participant

and LU
the quote you have respond to was not mine,so i wanted to clarify it.do not mix quotes and names.

thank you

January 19, 2010 at 4:22 am#170821

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2010,21:30)

and LU
the quote you have respond to was not mine,so i wanted to clarify it.do not mix quotes and names.

thank you

terraricca,
Please show me where I mixed quotes and names. I don't know what you are talking about.

Thanks,
Kathi

January 19, 2010 at 5:06 am#170834

Participant

me ether it made a mistake please forgive me .

January 19, 2010 at 5:12 am#170835

Participant

Terraricca
Forgiven…no big deal

January 19, 2010 at 2:01 pm#170867

Participant

LU,

Hebrews 1:6-17.But when he again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him!”

The angels Yes, but not Mankind – Is this significant?

As a point for further research and debate: What is meant by “Again” – when was the First time that the Firstborn was brought into the world?

Terra, once again I applaud your reasoning.

God Bless to you both.

January 19, 2010 at 3:05 pm#170868

Participant

Ah people, I think I understand…

Read the previous verses. There is an expounding of Jesus' position:

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
And again,
when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

Is there another passage in scripture that says that Angels worshipped Jesus? I had a look and found none – But I did find MANY stating that Jesus was GLORIFIED:
2 Thes 1:12
John 7:39
John 11:4
John 13:31
John 12:16
In Revelation the lamb (Jesus Christ) is Glorified by the Angels – but not Worshipped – Only “Him who sat on the Throne {God} was Worshipped.
Could the passage have read “Let all the angels GLORIFY Him” this would then concorde with all the passages mentioned?
I am just Askin'!

John 12:23
Acts 3:13

Just shows how even common sense reasning escapes even those who deem themselves worthy to translate God's word – which only leads to mis-directions later on and ultimately wrongful teaching. The confusion of reading is an indication that we should search deeper with the Holy Spirit within us when we read.

God gives understanding and [true] interpretations to whom he wills it to and confuses those he wishes.

If it weren't for the likes of WJ (as an antagonist) and with the support of Terra I should not have searched and tested my own understanding as deep as I have done.

January 19, 2010 at 5:06 pm#170879

Participant

Hmmmm…it does clearly include mankind here as giving worship to the Lamb too, and btw, that “Lamb” is Christ.

Rev 5:13-14
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
KJV

Not to mention all the times Jesus was worshipped by men, including his disciples in the NT. He never ever told them this was wrong.

JustAskin…you will too one day.

January 19, 2010 at 5:24 pm#170882