The messenger of the lord

[KangarooJack]

To All,
The information below shows without a doubt that the Messenger of the Lord was God according to Scripture and some Jewish tradition.

The Messenger of the Lord was God according to scripture:

Quote

The Angel Is Identified with Yahweh This fifth view has the strongest Biblical support. Of all the Scriptural designations given to the Angel, the most amazing and important is the name of God—Yahweh. Those who experienced His visit called Him Yahweh (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”). Moses, in writing the story of Hagar’s encounter with the Angel, records the following words: Then she called the name of the Lord [Yahweh] Who spoke to her, “Thou art a God Who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?” Genesis 16:13 nasbnasb: New American Standard Bible, published by Lockman Foundation.) (cf. kjv) Jacob wrestled with the Angel. This passage in Genesis 32:24-30 doesn’t specifically say that it was any kind of angel, much less the Angel of the Lord. This fact is brought out in Hosea 12:4. (The rest of this short passage in Hosea is instructive, too.  It says that Jacob “made supplication to Him, he found Him in Bethel,” and then it clearly identifies Him as “even the Lord, the God of hosts” v. 5.)  Yet as the morning dawned, Jacob declared, “I have seen God face to face.” As a result, Jacob named the place Peniel (i.e., Face of God). Once the identity of the Angel is revealed to him, Gideon fears for his life (Judges 6:22,23). Like Gideon, Manoah (Samson’s father) lamented, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” (Judges 13:22) Even more impressive is this fact: the Angel identifies Himself as Yahweh. For instance, in Jacob’s “ladder” dream, Yahweh speaks, saying, “I am Yahweh” (Genesis 28:13), and Jacob names the place Beth-el (“House of God”). Then many years later, the Angel of the Lord speaks to Jacob in a dream (31:11-13) and says quite distinctly, “I am the God of Bethel” (v. 13). Calling to Abraham (Genesis 22:11,12,15) and in the hearing of Isaac, who was also present, the Angel declares Himself to be Yahweh and swears by Himself 12 a tremendous promise to Abraham (vv. 16-18). Finally, by carefully scrutinizing several poetic passages, noting how the parallel lines of verse illuminate each other, we conclude that inspired Scripture is equating Yahweh/Elohim with the Mal’akh-Yahweh. For instance, the dying patriarch Jacob intoned this blessing: “God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads…” Genesis 48:15-16 [emphasis mine] God Himself, speaking through the prophet Hosea, says of Jacob: …by his strength [Jacob] had power with God: Yea, he had power over the Angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto Him: he found Him in Bethel, and there He spake with us; even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is his memorial. Hosea 12:3-5 The Angel of the Lord also exercises the prerogatives of God as God would: •He receives and answers prayer (Genesis 18:22-32).13 •He receives worship due to God alone. (Joshua 5:14; Judges 13:20; 1 Chronicles 21:16) This point is more potent when we realize that other angels are careful not to receive worship due to God (Revelation 19:10; 22:8,9).14 •He swears by Himself and makes extraordinary promises. (Genesis 16:10-12; 21:18; 22:15-18; 28:13-15, cf. 32:9-13) •He actively receives sacrifices offered to Yahweh. (Judges 6:18-21; 13:16, 19,20) •He takes away iniquity. (Zechariah 3:1-4)

The Messenger of the Lord was God according to some Jewish tradition:

Quote

Even some Jewish tradition concerning the Metatron helps us in this identification of the Angel with Yahweh. A.C. Gaebelein, the famous Bible lecturer (an expert on Jewish history and prophecy) makes this statement:

It is noteworthy and of great interest that the ancient Jews in their traditions regarded the Angel of the Lord, in every instance, not as an ordinary angel, but as the only media­tor between God and the world, the author of all revelations, to whom they gave the name Metatron. They called him “the angel of the counten­ance” (see Is. lxiii:9) because he always sees and beholds God’s countenance, and they speak of him as the highest revela­tion of the unseen God, a partaker of His nature and His majesty.15 [bolded emphasis mine]

Gaebelein goes on to quote another TalmudicTalmud:
The authoritative body of Jewish tradition, religious and civil law, including commentaries on the Torah (i.e., the five books of Moses, Genesis-Deuteronomy). Sorry, but it’s way more than we have time to explore in this article. source stating that “‘the Metatron, the Angel of the Lord, is united with the most high God by oneness of nature’”.16 [bolded emphasis mine]

We conclude that the teaching of Scripture, supported by elements of Jewish tradition, is that the Angel of the Lord is Yahweh, and therefore divine.

http://www.finestofthewheat.org/Jim_Kerwin/The_Angel_Of_The_Lord.php

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So how many messengers are there in God?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2009,13:42)

Hi TT, So how many messengers are there in God?

Nick,
I have said over and over that the Messenger that appeared to Moses in the burning bush and to Hagar was Christ. I have now provided some Jewish thought showing that the Messenger of the Lord was God.

thinker

[NickHassan]

HiTT,
So you say.
But support for such speculation is thin.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 14 2009,16:31)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2009,13:42) Hi TT, So how many messengers are there in God? Nick, I have said over and over that the Messenger that appeared to Moses in the burning bush and to Hagar was Christ. I have now provided some Jewish thought showing that the Messenger of the Lord was God. thinker

So Christ approved of Muhammad then, right?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Who?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 14 2009,13:33)

To All, The information below shows without a doubt that the Messenger of the Lord was God according to Scripture and some Jewish tradition. The Messenger of the Lord was God according to scripture: Quote The Angel Is Identified with Yahweh This fifth view has the strongest Biblical support. Of all the Scriptural designations given to the Angel, the most amazing and important is the name of God—Yahweh. Those who experienced His visit called Him Yahweh (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”). Moses, in writing the story of Hagar’s encounter with the Angel, records the following words: Then she called the name of the Lord [Yahweh] Who spoke to her, “Thou art a God Who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?” Genesis 16:13 nasbnasb: New American Standard Bible, published by Lockman Foundation.) (cf. kjv) Jacob wrestled with the Angel. This passage in Genesis 32:24-30 doesn’t specifically say that it was any kind of angel, much less the Angel of the Lord. This fact is brought out in Hosea 12:4. (The rest of this short passage in Hosea is instructive, too.  It says that Jacob “made supplication to Him, he found Him in Bethel,” and then it clearly identifies Him as “even the Lord, the God of hosts” v. 5.)  Yet as the morning dawned, Jacob declared, “I have seen God face to face.” As a result, Jacob named the place Peniel (i.e., Face of God). Once the identity of the Angel is revealed to him, Gideon fears for his life (Judges 6:22,23). Like Gideon, Manoah (Samson’s father) lamented, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” (Judges 13:22) Even more impressive is this fact: the Angel identifies Himself as Yahweh. For instance, in Jacob’s “ladder” dream, Yahweh speaks, saying, “I am Yahweh” (Genesis 28:13), and Jacob names the place Beth-el (“House of God”). Then many years later, the Angel of the Lord speaks to Jacob in a dream (31:11-13) and says quite distinctly, “I am the God of Bethel” (v. 13). Calling to Abraham (Genesis 22:11,12,15) and in the hearing of Isaac, who was also present, the Angel declares Himself to be Yahweh and swears by Himself 12 a tremendous promise to Abraham (vv. 16-18). Finally, by carefully scrutinizing several poetic passages, noting how the parallel lines of verse illuminate each other, we conclude that inspired Scripture is equating Yahweh/Elohim with the Mal’akh-Yahweh. For instance, the dying patriarch Jacob intoned this blessing: “God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads…” Genesis 48:15-16 [emphasis mine] God Himself, speaking through the prophet Hosea, says of Jacob: …by his strength [Jacob] had power with God: Yea, he had power over the Angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto Him: he found Him in Bethel, and there He spake with us; even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is his memorial. Hosea 12:3-5 The Angel of the Lord also exercises the prerogatives of God as God would: •He receives and answers prayer (Genesis 18:22-32).13 •He receives worship due to God alone. (Joshua 5:14; Judges 13:20; 1 Chronicles 21:16) This point is more potent when we realize that other angels are careful not to receive worship due to God (Revelation 19:10; 22:8,9).14 •He swears by Himself and makes extraordinary promises. (Genesis 16:10-12; 21:18; 22:15-18; 28:13-15, cf. 32:9-13) •He actively receives sacrifices offered to Yahweh. (Judges 6:18-21; 13:16, 19,20) •He takes away iniquity. (Zechariah 3:1-4) The Messenger of the Lord was God according to some Jewish tradition: Quote Even some Jewish tradition concerning the Metatron helps us in this identification of the Angel with Yahweh. A.C. Gaebelein, the famous Bible lecturer (an expert on Jewish history and prophecy) makes this statement: It is noteworthy and of great interest that the ancient Jews in their traditions regarded the Angel of the Lord, in every instance, not as an ordinary angel, but as the only media­tor between God and the world, the author of all revelations, to whom they gave the name Metatron. They called him “the angel of the counten­ance” (see Is. lxiii:9) because he always sees and beholds God’s countenance, and they speak of him as the highest revela­tion of the unseen God, a partaker of His nature and His majesty.15 [bolded emphasis mine] Gaebelein goes on to quote another TalmudicTalmud: The authoritative body of Jewish tradition, religious and civil law, including commentaries on the Torah (i.e., the five books of Moses, Genesis-Deuteronomy). Sorry, but it’s way more than we have time to explore in this article. source stating that “‘the Metatron, the Angel of the Lord, is united with the most high God by oneness of nature’”.16 [bolded emphasis mine] We conclude that the teaching of Scripture, supported by elements of Jewish tradition, is that the Angel of the Lord is Yahweh, and therefore divine.

http://www.finestofthewheat.org/Jim_Kerwin/The_Angel_Of_The_Lord.php

thinker
Good work! But this is dispelling the trinity not enhancing it.

Angels are messengers an angel of the Lord is speaking on behalf of The Lord so he is coming in that nature just like as explained before in Hebrew Name is Nature. So to be like Jesus you must take on his nature just like he takes on the nature of God but he does not take on the being of God.

We know for a fact that in your examples of God coming to people He comes through a messenger Gabriel is such a messenger and has often spoke for God and I wouldn't be suprised if many who spoke to him thought he was God.

Just remember most people who believe that Jesus is God, believe so because of mundane reasons such as he did miracles or returned from the dead if these things did not occur you would not have believed that Jesus was God and yet others have done the very same things as Jesus and you do not see them as God because in learning about God you were taught the gospel first and learned those things about Jesus.

Had you understood the things of old your understanding would be completely different you would have been like the people of that day asking is this Elijah, The Prophet…? In otherwords others that are expected to be miraculous. No one asked “Is he God?” because what would make him be God any more than those who had done those same things?

But Elijah, Elisha, Moses, Joshua….etc had taken on the nature of God or the mind of The annointed i.e. Christ. God gave them power and permission.

When talking to a Man of God are you not talking to God? Is The Spirit of God not in that Man and if IT is then would that Holy Spirit not be aware?

You have shown that the Nature of God is available to ALL but the Being of God is availabl
e to none but God.

So in believing in a trinity what happens is you expand the being of God but limit the Nature of God.

Now we know that we should not according to the first commandment expand the being of God but we know from the second commandment in the NT given by Jesus that we are to expand the Nature of God.

God Bless you!

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Test the spirits.
Satan can appear as an angel of light.
Gabriel could not replace the Son of God.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2009,05:25)

Hi BD, Test the spirits. Satan can appear as an angel of light. Gabriel could not replace the Son of God.

Gabriel is Gabriel and Jesus is Jesus but God certainly spoke through both of them. Didn't God send Gabriel and didn't God send Jesus.

[KangarooJack]

Bodhitharta said;

Quote

Good work! But this is dispelling the trinity not enhancing it. Angels are messengers an angel of the Lord  is speaking on behalf of The Lord so he is coming in that nature just like as explained before in Hebrew Name is Nature. So to be like Jesus you must take on his nature just like he takes on the nature of God but he does not take on the being of God.

Boulderdash! The Messenger allowed people to think that He was God. No messenger in the new testament permitted a person to mistake him for God.

thinker

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 15 2009,10:59)

Bodhitharta said; Quote Good work! But this is dispelling the trinity not enhancing it. Angels are messengers an angel of the Lord  is speaking on behalf of The Lord so he is coming in that nature just like as explained before in Hebrew Name is Nature. So to be like Jesus you must take on his nature just like he takes on the nature of God but he does not take on the being of God. Boulderdash! The Messenger allowed people to think that He was God. No messenger in the new testament permitted a person to mistake him for God. thinker

Then why do you believe that Jesus is God?

[bodhitharta]

Then why do you believe that Jesus is God?

I mean did Jesus say listen to me and my words for I AM GOD and I created you all?

[RokkaMan]

If you talk to yourself in the mirror, are you talking to THE MIRROR or the person in The Mirror???

Ok so why is it hard to believe that when people called The Lord's Angel…YHWH they were referring to YHWH who was speaking through the angel, not the angel itself.

Same with Jesus?

If he's a reflection of YHWH, are we not referring to the YHWH in him as God, and not Jesus himself?

I think you people are all missing the point.

It's not JESUS who is God, it is God who is GOD.

If God is in Jesus, Jesus isn't God…it's God who is in him, who is God…

Jesus is the messenger. God is the messege.

And to kill the messenger holding the greatest messege of all…which was/is…God loves you.

Believing that God sent that messege (Jesus) is enough to save you.
Amen

[RokkaMan]

It's like a king sending a messege to another kingdom…trying to send a messege of peace.

But instead of sending a peon in the village…he sends his own son and prince…to really portray the idea that I am serious about this peace.

And instead the people killed the prince.

Now the king is even saying “Ok look, I sent my only son to peace our nations together and you killed him” I am now going to destroy everyone in your kingdom, and for anyone who believes I sent my son to die for peace between us, I will still give you that gift.

That is what God has done for us, it doesn't make Jesus God himself…he is what he is…God's son.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 16 2009,04:12)

If you talk to yourself in the  mirror, are you talking to THE MIRROR or the person in The Mirror??? Ok so why is it hard to believe that when people called The Lord's Angel…YHWH they were referring to YHWH who was speaking through the angel, not the angel itself. Same with Jesus? If he's a reflection of YHWH, are we not referring to the YHWH in him as God, and not Jesus himself? I think you people are all missing the point. It's not JESUS who is God, it is God who is GOD. If God is in Jesus, Jesus isn't God…it's God who is in him, who is God… Jesus is the messenger. God is the messege. And to kill the messenger holding the greatest messege of all…which was/is…God loves you. Believing that God sent that messege (Jesus) is enough to save you. Amen

WOW! God is pouring out his wisdom and knowledge all over you! YOU GET IT! May God continue to Bless YOU!!!

[bodhitharta]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 16 2009,04:17)

It's like a king sending a messege to another kingdom…trying to send a messege of peace. But instead of sending a peon in the village…he sends his own son and prince…to really portray the idea that I am serious about this peace. And instead the people killed the prince. Now the king is even saying “Ok look, I sent my only son to peace our nations together and you killed him” I am now going to destroy everyone in your kingdom, and for anyone who believes I sent my son to die for peace between us, I will still give you that gift. That is what God has done for us, it doesn't make Jesus God himself…he is what he is…God's son.

Peace and blessing be upon you! For you speak the TRUTH! Praise God!

Amen!

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