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Hi KAT,
Underlying the security among numbers of trinity belief is the fear of deception.
But since Jesus did not teach it it is deception.
What folk fear befalls them.Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,10:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,06:11) Hi TT,
So angels never spoke for God?
You have read of the burning bush where the angel spoke for God?The Angels of God often do this as direct conveyors of messages for God
Your scripture twisting Nick. The angel said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” The Angel did not say “He” but “I will multiply your seed.” The angel could not say this unless He was God. And Hagar replied to the one who spoke with her and called Him “Jehovah” and “God.” Did you get that Nick? Hagar called the Angel by the name Jehovah.Moses also called the Angel “Jehovah” (Exodus 4:1).
Therefore, the Angel who spoke for Jehovah was Jehovah.
Aren't you glad that all your sins are forgiven including your doctrinal falsehoods? Jesus won't bring up your errors when you get to heaven because He washed them all away!
thinker
I'm glad you brought this up because it should prove to you that the trinity does not exist. You have shown how an angel speaking on behalf of God was referred to as God and that is because the Angel(messenger) was representing God.Because you understand this you should understand it the same way with Jesus who even said that the doctrine he teaches is not his own and therefor it should also be clear that when God says He is the Only Saviour that He is the case of Jesus is saving THROUGH Jesus.
It is also true that one can say that Jesus is lord without Jesus being LORD equivalent or partnered with Our Father God Almighty. Ultimately God is lord Most High
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2009,16:04) Hi KAT,
There is no trinity taught in scripture.
So lighten up.
“Baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”The three are ONE name (God).
thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 14 2009,16:10) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,10:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,06:11) Hi TT,
Jesus said…Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, “but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it”. Mk 8:34, 35
John tells us no greater love is this “that a man lay down his life for his friends” John 15:13
The very fact that this kind of devotion is demanded of Jesus as a requirement to follow him is proof that he is either God or a lunatic!
You have read of the burning bush where the angel spoke for God?
The Angels of God often do this as direct conveyors of messages for God
Your scripture twisting Nick. The angel said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” The Angel did not say “He” but “I will multiply your seed.” The angel could not say this unless He was God. And Hagar replied to the one who spoke with her and called Him “Jehovah” and “God.” Did you get that Nick? Hagar called the Angel by the name Jehovah.Moses also called the Angel “Jehovah” (Exodus 4:1).
Therefore, the Angel who spoke for Jehovah was Jehovah.
Aren't you glad that all your sins are forgiven including your doctrinal falsehoods? Jesus won't bring up your errors when you get to heaven because He washed them all away!
thinker
I'm glad you brought this up because it should prove to you that the trinity does not exist. You have shown how an angel speaking on behalf of God was referred to as God and that is because the Angel(messenger) was representing God.Because you understand this you should understand it the same way with Jesus who even said that the doctrine he teaches is not his own and therefor it should also be clear that when God says He is the Only Saviour that He is the case of Jesus is saving THROUGH Jesus.
It is also true that one can say that Jesus is lord without Jesus being LORD equivalent or partnered with Our Father God Almighty. Ultimately God is lord Most High
The Messenger Gabriel did not call Himself God. Gabriel did not say to Mary, “My power will overshadow you.” He said, “The power of the Most High will overshadow you.”But the Messenger who came to Moses said “I am the God of your fathers.” The Messenger said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” Why didn't this Messenger speak like Gabriel and say “not me but God?”
You have implied that the Messenger which appeared to Moses and Hagar was a liar.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 15 2009,08:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 14 2009,16:10) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,10:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,06:11) Hi TT,
Jesus said…Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, “but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it”. Mk 8:34, 35
John tells us no greater love is this “that a man lay down his life for his friends” John 15:13
The very fact that this kind of devotion is demanded of Jesus as a requirement to follow him is proof that he is either God or a lunatic!
You have read of the burning bush where the angel spoke for God?
The Angels of God often do this as direct conveyors of messages for God
Your scripture twisting Nick. The angel said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” The Angel did not say “He” but “I will multiply your seed.” The angel could not say this unless He was God. And Hagar replied to the one who spoke with her and called Him “Jehovah” and “God.” Did you get that Nick? Hagar called the Angel by the name Jehovah.Moses also called the Angel “Jehovah” (Exodus 4:1).
Therefore, the Angel who spoke for Jehovah was Jehovah.
Aren't you glad that all your sins are forgiven including your doctrinal falsehoods? Jesus won't bring up your errors when you get to heaven because He washed them all away!
thinker
I'm glad you brought this up because it should prove to you that the trinity does not exist. You have shown how an angel speaking on behalf of God was referred to as God and that is because the Angel(messenger) was representing God.Because you understand this you should understand it the same way with Jesus who even said that the doctrine he teaches is not his own and therefor it should also be clear that when God says He is the Only Saviour that He is the case of Jesus is saving THROUGH Jesus.
It is also true that one can say that Jesus is lord without Jesus being LORD equivalent or partnered with Our Father God Almighty. Ultimately God is lord Most High
The Messenger Gabriel did not call Himself God. Gabriel did not say to Mary, “My power will overshadow you.” He said, “The power of the Most High will overshadow you.”But the Messenger who came to Moses said “I am the God of your fathers.” The Messenger said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” Why didn't this Messenger speak like Gabriel and say “not me but God?”
You have implied that the Messenger which appeared to Moses and Hagar was a liar.
thinker
Not at all because Jesus said both things that were very direct but yet saying these things did not belong to him and yet he also spoke from his own words saying that he did not know everything.In otherwords an angel speaking on behalf of God still can speak for himself just like Jesus spoke for God and also expressed a will seperate from God saying “Not my will but yours”
As a matter of fact in the OT it doesn't say that a messenger was talking to Moses at all it says God said and then in the NT it says it was an angel so please be careful about throwing things out there.
Genesis 16
10and the messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Multiplying I multiply thy seed, and it is not numbered from multitude;'11and the messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Behold thou [art] conceiving, and bearing a son, and hast called his name Ishmael, for Jehovah hath hearkened unto thine affliction;
Now here is absolute proof of what I am saying:
Exodus 3
7And Jehovah saith, `I have certainly seen the affliction of My people who [are] in Egypt, and their cry I have heard, because of its exactors, for I have known its pains;
8and I go down to deliver it out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to cause it to go up out of the land, unto a land good and broad, unto a land flowing with milk and honey — unto the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
9`And now, lo, the cry of the sons of Israel hath come in unto Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them,
10and now, come, and I send thee unto Pharaoh, and bring thou out My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt.'
Now according to the way you are interpreting this makes Moses “God” because God says He is going to go down but send Moses.
I am glad you brought this up it is one of the best subjects for everyone here to learn.
Bodhitharta said;
Quote Angels are messengers an angel of the Lord is speaking on behalf of The Lord so he is coming in that nature just like as explained before in Hebrew Name is Nature Thanks for the help bd. This is what I have been saying. The Messenger shared God's name thus inferring that He shared God's nature and was therefore God. Exodus 23:21 explicitly says that the Messenger had Jehovah's name in Him.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 15 2009,11:07) Bodhitharta said; Quote Angels are messengers an angel of the Lord is speaking on behalf of The Lord so he is coming in that nature just like as explained before in Hebrew Name is Nature Thanks for the help bd. This is what I have been saying. The Messenger shared God's name thus inferring that He shared God's nature and was therefore God. Exodus 23:21 explicitly says that the Messenger had Jehovah's name in Him.
thinker
Yes once again you are right, but name means nature in Hebrew but nature does not mean being.My son shares my nature but is not me and if you have relatives they are somewhat like you but they are not you.
Elijah had God's name in him so did many of the messengers of God, do you know what the word Michael means or Gabriel?
I am glad you said thanks for the help because that is all I am doing.
(Exodus 3:1-6)
And Moses became a shepherd of the flock of Jeth′ro, the priest of Mid′i·an, whose son-in-law he was. While he was driving the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he came at length to the mountain of the [true] God, to Ho′reb. 2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” 5 Then he said: “Do not come near here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 And he went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at the [true] God.When the law was given, Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself.
Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”—Galatians 3:19.That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.” That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read: “Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!”
The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.Did you notice the “do I” ? Yet, it is not Jehovah, it is clearly “Jehovah's angel” as the account says.
On page 1, TT said:
Quote The angel said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” The Angel did not say “He” but “I will multiply your seed.” The angel could not say this unless He was God. Apparently not. Apparently, if an angel is representing God, he can speak as if he is God speaking directly.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
When the Bible very clearly says: No man has seen God, it is correct. If we look at all these accounts, I think this becomes more clear. Some accounts explain it clearly, others do not and leave the impression that they were speaking with God, directly. But, interestingly, other accounts also make it appear as if they were speaking of God directly, but also state that it was definitely God's representative, an angel. When taken altogether, there is only one conclusion that doesn't contradict other scriptures.
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,02:27) (Exodus 3:1-6)
And Moses became a shepherd of the flock of Jeth′ro, the priest of Mid′i·an, whose son-in-law he was. While he was driving the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he came at length to the mountain of the [true] God, to Ho′reb. 2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” 5 Then he said: “Do not come near here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 And he went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at the [true] God.When the law was given, Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself.
Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”—Galatians 3:19.That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.” That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read: “Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!”
The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.Did you notice the “do I” ? Yet, it is not Jehovah, it is clearly “Jehovah's angel” as the account says.
On page 1, TT said:
Quote The angel said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” The Angel did not say “He” but “I will multiply your seed.” The angel could not say this unless He was God. Apparently not. Apparently, if an angel is representing God, he can speak as if he is God speaking directly.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
When the Bible very clearly says: No man has seen God, it is correct. If we look at all these accounts, I think this becomes more clear. Some accounts explain it clearly, others do not and leave the impression that they were speaking with God, directly. But, interestingly, other accounts also make it appear as if they were speaking of God directly, but also state that it was definitely God's representative, an angel. When taken altogether, there is only one conclusion that doesn't contradict other scriptures.
Great Post!Too bad most of it wasn't written by him.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 18 2009,15:02) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,02:27) (Exodus 3:1-6)
And Moses became a shepherd of the flock of Jeth′ro, the priest of Mid′i·an, whose son-in-law he was. While he was driving the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he came at length to the mountain of the [true] God, to Ho′reb. 2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” 5 Then he said: “Do not come near here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 And he went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at the [true] God.When the law was given, Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself.
Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”—Galatians 3:19.That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.” That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read: “Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!”
The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.Did you notice the “do I” ? Yet, it is not Jehovah, it is clearly “Jehovah's angel” as the account says.
On page 1, TT said:
Quote The angel said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” The Angel did not say “He” but “I will multiply your seed.” The angel could not say this unless He was God. Apparently not. Apparently, if an angel is representing God, he can speak as if he is God speaking directly.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
When the Bible very clearly says: No man has seen God, it is correct. If we look at all these accounts, I think this becomes more clear. Some accounts explain it clearly, others do not and leave the impression that they were speaking with God, directly. But, interestingly, other accounts also make it appear as if they were speaking of God directly, but also state that it was definitely God's representative, an angel. When taken altogether, there is only one conclusion that doesn't contradict other scriptures.
Great Post!
TO ALL,David has an “amen” from bodhitharta. We all know that bd denies that Christ was crucified. And David denies the resurrection.
What an alliance!
thinker
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