- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (katjo @ Oct. 10 2009,14:52) This is from Heaven Net and I POSTED IT A FEW DAYS AGO BUT NO ONE WANTS TO COMMENT ABOUT IT! IM CURIOUS TO KNOW HOW YOU CAN DENY THIS! THis person quotes; I will be addressing the question of Jesus Christ's deity. This issue is not new, nor are the arguments surrounding it. However, one side is true, and one side is false. Either Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man, or he was only fully man. Those who believe that scripture is truly God's word must also believe that there are no contradictions in scripture. Any such contradiction would prove error in God's word, thus error in God. Such error is impossible; therefore any inerrancy found in scripture must be as a result from human error in interpretation. The fact that scripture is without contradictions will prove to be the biggest factor in proving which belief is true and which is false.
I have studied the deity of Christ from both a Trinitarian perspective as well as a non-Trinitarian perspective and have found that there is overwhelming evidence that scripture very clearly states that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. There are countless ways in which to approach proving this issue with scripture, however to start off, I will begin with some basics. If needs be, I will continue the scriptural proof in more detail in another post so to keep this one as short as possible. I will begin with three contradictions that arise if Jesus Christ is NOT God.
1) Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
—According to verse 8, this is talking about the Son of God, not the Father. This verse tells us that Jesus Christ was not only pre-existent to his humanity on earth, but that He existed in the beginning even before creation and that by His hands He created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This verse tells us that the only thing in existence in the beginning was God, and that God created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1 we find that God was the only one in the beginning that that He created the heavens and the earth. According to Hebrews 1:10 we find that Jesus Christ was in the beginning and created the heavens and the earth. If Jesus Christ is not God, then these two verses contradict each other. The only way Hebrews 1:10 is true is if Jesus Christ is in fact God.
2) Exodus 34:14, –for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God— According to this verse, God is the only person who is to be worshiped. Jesus Christ is worshiped throughout the New Testament not only by humans (Matthew 2:2, Mark 5:6, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, etc.) but also by the angels (Hebrews 1:6). If Jesus Christ is not God, then there is a major contradiction in scripture. If Christ is not God then all the angels are guilty of idolatry as well as humans. More severely, if Christ is not God, then Jesus Christ himself is guilty of sin. If Christ is not God, then He sinned every time He accepted and encouraged those who worshiped Him. Also, in his confrontation with Satan in the desert, Jesus Christ commands Satan to “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.” (Matthew 4:10). We also know that according to Philippians 2:10 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” This means that all will fall subject to, worship, give homage, and praise Jesus Christ, be it voluntary or involuntary. This includes Satan himself. If Jesus Christ is not God, then He is lying in his instruction to Satan. Jesus tells Satan to worship ONLY God, and then later Satan is found worshiping Jesus.
3) Finally, according to Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.” The word LORD in this verse is the Hebrew word YAHWEH, which means God. God is our only savior, and only God is able to forgive our sins and give us salvation. However, Jesus Christ not only forgave sins (Matthew 9:6) be He also is our savior (Titus 1:4, 2 Peter 1:11, etc.). If Jesus Christ is not God, then again there is contradiction in scripture. Furthermore, if Jesus Christ is not God, then we have no savior, and thus no salvation.
As established in Hebrews 1:10, the fact that Jesus Christ preexisted to his time on earth proves that He is in fact God. When scripture tells us that Christ “came in the flesh” it establishes that Christ has eternally existed and affirms that He is fully God. That is why 2 John 1:7 is so important: “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Those who do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ is fully God are false and are not from God. In fact, confessing that Jesus is God is how we test if someone is from God or from the adversary: 1 John 4:2-3 “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.”
I hope this helps anyone lost in falseness or confused about the truth. I will continue to pray for those who are lost that God opens their hearts so that they will know the truth of God and worship in that truth and in spirit.
I read some of it, and whoever wrote it, is somewhat confused about who Jesus is and what He was with God, when He was the firstborn over all creation.
He gives Scriptures that I have addressed before.
Hebrew 1:8 states that God the Father calls Jesus God, like John 1:1, And I will not say that it is not true. Both have other names. The Word God is a title or a Family name. Jesus is the Firstborn of that Family. We are the Adopted Sons of God and the Angels are also Gods Sons. It makes perfect sense to me that we are Family. I have to kind of smile because we used to keep all of Gods Holy Days, like the Feast of Tabernacle, the Days of Unleavened Bread, etc. One Feast we called it the Family of God, We still have some Music an Songs that are about the Family of God.
To me Scriptures does not contradict at all.
Col. 1:15-17
Rev.3:14
And Jesus Himself said this about what He was before He became to be as Human,
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was.”
He is the firstborn of all creation. He is the only Son that came forth from the Father. But I believe were things go wrong is when others believe that Jesus is as great as His Father is. With that I don't agree.
Jesus is King of King and Lord of Lord. But His Father is LORD and greater then Jesus is, by Jeus own words in
John 14:28 ….for my Father is greater then I.
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and in us all.
1 Corinth. 8:4 ” And that there is none other God but one.
Here the Father is called also God. And when we understand what the Word God is, there is no contradiction.
Now I read somewhere that the translators did not want to use the Fathers name and used LORD instead. If Jesus is called God the Son, He is not the Almighty God. That title will always belong to the Father.
I know that it contradicts Hebrew:8 and John 1:1But we need to take scripture the way it is written and also have to have other Scriptures that go with it. If I only take one Scripture over the other then we get in
trouble.
Jesus has said several times that He has come to do His Fathers will. Also He said that He will only do what His Father wants Him to do. Also in
1 Corinth,. 11:3 The head of man is Christ, and the Head of woman is man, and the Head of Christ is God. Here it is God the Father.
Sleep on all of this and no hard feelings. I am getting so tired of all this bickering. Calling others names has never been my cup of tea. Also our Son and Grandsons go to a Baptist Church and they belief in a Trinity. I love them just as much.
IreneQuote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,12:33) 1 Corinthians 1:9 instructs us that we are called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia = communion) with the Son. “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:9)
Can any antitrinitarian here please tell us how, in practice, they have koinonia with the Lord Yeshua?
Anyone?
So not one antitrinitarian here can offer me even one practice they do whereby they have konoinia with the Lord, that they have supposedly been called into. Nothing?Curious.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,21:32) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,12:33) 1 Corinthians 1:9 instructs us that we are called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia = communion) with the Son. “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:9)
Can any antitrinitarian here please tell us how, in practice, they have koinonia with the Lord Yeshua?
Anyone?
So not one antitrinitarian here can offer me even one practice they do whereby they have konoinia with the Lord, that they have supposedly been called into. Nothing?Curious.
Yes ,because Jesus is our Mediator to go to our Heavenly Father and ask for the forgiveness of our Sins.
Jesus also said, that if we ask our Father in Heaven, in His name, that He would give it to us, if it is His will. In that sense we do communicate with Jesus. After all He will come again as King of King and Lord of Lord. But that should never interfere with the worship we have with our Heavenly Father. Jesus deserves all Honor and Glory as King of Kings and Lord of Lord, but I pray to the Father and ask Him for what I would like Him to do for us. For instant, when our Grandson got the Swine Flu a couple of days ago, I prayed to the Father, and asked in Jesus name, to help Him get over this.
He had 104 temp. two days ago and yesterday when I called our Daughter, She told me that He does not even act like He is sick. Now that is what I call a Miracle. IMO
Peace and Love IreneRev. 1;8 Jesus's words; I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty!!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,05:32) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,12:33) 1 Corinthians 1:9 instructs us that we are called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia = communion) with the Son. “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:9)
Can any antitrinitarian here please tell us how, in practice, they have koinonia with the Lord Yeshua?
Anyone?
So not one antitrinitarian here can offer me even one practice they do whereby they have konoinia with the Lord, that they have supposedly been called into. Nothing?Curious.
Hi Is 1:18,
First of all, I am not an anti-trinitarian for that would mean that I was against the trinitarian. I see the trinitarians as having a theory of oneness that is different than mine but I certainly am not against them. I talk to the Father as well as the Son in my spirit which is united with them, one spirit made up of three spirits-the Father's, the Son's and the believer's. They go with me wherever I am by their spirits which are united together with mine.Good to see you here again
KathiColossians1:15 in the Commentary says: the first born of every creature. This expresses Christ deity and sovereignty in relation to creation. Christ was the first born,not the first created. First born signifies priority in time. First, this speaks of His preexistence, what He was from eternity. He was before all creation. Thirdly, this also speaks of being recognized as the Messiah(Ps 89:27) so we have here declared the eternity, the sovereignty, and the lordship of Christ. (16) For by Him were all things created. Three positions tell the story(1) In Him, sovereign source,(2) by him, divine agent,(3) unto him, for His use and for His glory. (17) And He is befor all things -Christ existed prior to all creation. He is the great :”I am”(Jn 8:58)The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the new Testament. Than if you go to John 8:58 it says; The joy of Abraham refers to the birth of Issac. Abraham saw in Issac the hope of man kind and the promise of a Messiah. He saw the promise afar off (Heb 11;13) Limited to physical understanding, the jews could not comprehend how Christ saw Abraham. Christ now makes the strongest statement of this entire dialogue. Before Abraham existed I am. CHRIST WAS FROM ETERNITY AND WAS THE GREAT “I AM” (Ex 3;14)
Quote (katjo @ Oct. 11 2009,13:55) Colossians1:15 in the Commentary says: the first born of every creature. This expresses Christ deity and sovereignty in relation to creation. Christ was the first born,not the first created. First born signifies priority in time. First, this speaks of His preexistence, what He was from eternity. He was before all creation. Thirdly, this also speaks of being recognized as the Messiah(Ps 89:27) so we have here declared the eternity, the sovereignty, and the lordship of Christ. (16) For by Him were all things created. Three positions tell the story(1) In Him, sovereign source,(2) by him, divine agent,(3) unto him, for His use and for His glory. (17) And He is befor all things -Christ existed prior to all creation. He is the great :”I am”(Jn 8:58)The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the new Testament. Than if you go to John 8:58 it says; The joy of Abraham refers to the birth of Issac. Abraham saw in Issac the hope of man kind and the promise of a Messiah. He saw the promise afar off (Heb 11;13) Limited to physical understanding, the jews could not comprehend how Christ saw Abraham. Christ now makes the strongest statement of this entire dialogue. Before Abraham existed I am. CHRIST WAS FROM ETERNITY AND WAS THE GREAT “I AM” (Ex 3;14)
Amen Kat!The Messenger of YHWH said, “I am that I am.” Christ was the Messenger who said this.
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2009,04:03) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,05:32) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,12:33) 1 Corinthians 1:9 instructs us that we are called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia = communion) with the Son. “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:9)
Can any antitrinitarian here please tell us how, in practice, they have koinonia with the Lord Yeshua?
Anyone?
So not one antitrinitarian here can offer me even one practice they do whereby they have konoinia with the Lord, that they have supposedly been called into. Nothing?Curious.
Hi Is 1:18,
First of all, I am not an anti-trinitarian for that would mean that I was against the trinitarian. I see the trinitarians as having a theory of oneness that is different than mine but I certainly am not against them. I talk to the Father as well as the Son in my spirit which is united with them, one spirit made up of three spirits-the Father's, the Son's and the believer's. They go with me wherever I am by their spirits which are united together with mine.Good to see you here again
Kathi
Hi Kathi! I do know that it woul'd be much better if we would all be united in one belief, however that is not now possible.
Only when Christ comes again will He and His Saints and Priests, teach only the truth. Satan is put away and all will know and all will be united as one. Then in Rev. it says that Satan will be loosed again and will test all. Many will follow Him right into the Lake of Fire, where Anti-Christ was already. Now I do know that there is Scriptures that say that there be all sort of sorrow, but in the end all will be destroyed and burned up.
Look in Malaxchi 4:1-3
One day we will all be united in Christ and to that day I will forever look forward too.
With all my Love IreneQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 11 2009,14:01) Quote (katjo @ Oct. 11 2009,13:55) Colossians1:15 in the Commentary says: the first born of every creature. This expresses Christ deity and sovereignty in relation to creation. Christ was the first born,not the first created. First born signifies priority in time. First, this speaks of His preexistence, what He was from eternity. He was before all creation. Thirdly, this also speaks of being recognized as the Messiah(Ps 89:27) so we have here declared the eternity, the sovereignty, and the lordship of Christ. (16) For by Him were all things created. Three positions tell the story(1) In Him, sovereign source,(2) by him, divine agent,(3) unto him, for His use and for His glory. (17) And He is befor all things -Christ existed prior to all creation. He is the great :”I am”(Jn 8:58)The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the new Testament. Than if you go to John 8:58 it says; The joy of Abraham refers to the birth of Issac. Abraham saw in Issac the hope of man kind and the promise of a Messiah. He saw the promise afar off (Heb 11;13) Limited to physical understanding, the jews could not comprehend how Christ saw Abraham. Christ now makes the strongest statement of this entire dialogue. Before Abraham existed I am. CHRIST WAS FROM ETERNITY AND WAS THE GREAT “I AM” (Ex 3;14)
Amen Kat!The Messenger of YHWH said, “I am that I am.” Christ was the Messenger who said this.
thinker
Hi TT,
Did you learn this from scripture or by a personal revelation?It is fairly desolate where I live, and all my animals on my ranch keep me busy 24/7, the few that live nearby are mostly non-religious or of another faith. I hope that answers your question.
But I do fellowship here with you all.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 10 2009,14:54) Hi KAT,
God is not the Son of God.
Nick,
But the Son of God is God.thinker
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,12:33) 1 Corinthians 1:9 instructs us that we are called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia = communion) with the Son. “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship (Gr. koinonia) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:9)
Can any antitrinitarian here please tell us how, in practice, they have koinonia with the Lord Yeshua?
Anyone?
Paul,
We are the wife and Christ is the Husband. Can any anti-trinitarian here explain how it can be a healthy marriage if the wife doesn't fellowship with her husband?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,14:35) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 11 2009,14:01) Quote (katjo @ Oct. 11 2009,13:55) Colossians1:15 in the Commentary says: the first born of every creature. This expresses Christ deity and sovereignty in relation to creation. Christ was the first born,not the first created. First born signifies priority in time. First, this speaks of His preexistence, what He was from eternity. He was before all creation. Thirdly, this also speaks of being recognized as the Messiah(Ps 89:27) so we have here declared the eternity, the sovereignty, and the lordship of Christ. (16) For by Him were all things created. Three positions tell the story(1) In Him, sovereign source,(2) by him, divine agent,(3) unto him, for His use and for His glory. (17) And He is befor all things -Christ existed prior to all creation. He is the great :”I am”(Jn 8:58)The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the new Testament. Than if you go to John 8:58 it says; The joy of Abraham refers to the birth of Issac. Abraham saw in Issac the hope of man kind and the promise of a Messiah. He saw the promise afar off (Heb 11;13) Limited to physical understanding, the jews could not comprehend how Christ saw Abraham. Christ now makes the strongest statement of this entire dialogue. Before Abraham existed I am. CHRIST WAS FROM ETERNITY AND WAS THE GREAT “I AM” (Ex 3;14)
Amen Kat!The Messenger of YHWH said, “I am that I am.” Christ was the Messenger who said this.
thinker
Hi TT,
Did you learn this from scripture or by a personal revelation?
I learned it from biblical revelation. It was the Messenger of Jehovah who spoke from the burning bush and said, “I am the God of your father.” In verse 14 the Messenger said, “I am that I am.” If you can't disprove it then be quiet.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,15:18) Hi TT,
Is God the Son of God?
No! The Son of God is all that God is like the Son of Man is all that Man is. It's not difficult to understand.thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
