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Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,16:34) Kathi said: Quote I'm not following a man, Keith. God loves and can work through men even though they aren't perfect and have false beliefs. Thankfully so. Do you think that those who do not see the doctrine in the Bible can not have or hear the Holy Spirit? hmmmm?? God is not done renewing the minds of men. No man has arrived at complete, perfect understanding has he Keith? Keith replied:
Quote But am I supposed to take your statement as meaning that all these people you promote are yet to catch up to you and become Henotheistic by adopting your belief? Keith,
Don't forget that Kathi received a “whisper.” This means that the whole dog gone world of commentators has to catch up with her. It means that all Christians throughout all centuries until Kathi's “whisper” were left in the dark. So the scriptures were unintelligible to men until Kathi received her “whisper.” And if the scriptures were unintellligible then obedience was not possible for men cannot obey what God has deliberately hidden from them. Consequently, God cannot hold them accountable.If God cannot hold men accountable to that which He has intentionally hidden from them then what did He do with them until Kathi received the “whisper?” Now we on Heaven Net who have heard the new “whisper” truth we are accountable and God can damn us. But what of those in the ages before us and those who have never visited Heaven Net? Those who have never visited Heaven Net cannot be held accountable for they have not yet recieved the truth about Kathi's “whisper.”
The only way Kathi can give the whole world her “whisper” is to go out doing signs and wonders which would verify that her anti-trinitarian “whisper” is the truth. But this would conflict with the signs and wonders of those trinitarians who would reject her “whisper.” They would say, “Our signs and wonders are proof that WE have the truth and that this woman's 'whisper' is false.”
So the world would find itself in a dilemna. They would ask, “Whose claim and whose signs and wonders should we believe?” So Kathi would need to do a Moses thing by performing signs and wonders which would swallow up the signs and wonders of the trinitarians.
If Kathi can do this I will consider her proposal that the Son of God came out of God's womb. Until then I must reject her “whisper” and hold her to scripture.
thinker
Hi JackHonestly I think Kathi is sincere! But I do believe she is sincerely wrong!
I do not want to be mean Spirited toward her, but I will be firm with her when she comes across with the motherly attitude that I or others need to listen and learn, when I feel that it is she who is not listening not only to her own Pastor, but as you say other credible ministrys and in fact 100s of Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars who bring us the translations and commentaries that proclaim Jesus is God and not “a god”!
I am not her judge but I do not believe for one minute that the whisper she heard was from the Holy Spirit, and I am quite sure she will say the same of me!
Kathi like others have failed to see that who and what Jesus is, is the foundation of the Christian faith, for how can you build a relationship with someone you do not know!
Thats why no man can say Jesus is Lord (YHWH) but by the Holy Spirit!
Blessings WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,16:34) Kathi said: Quote I'm not following a man, Keith. God loves and can work through men even though they aren't perfect and have false beliefs. Thankfully so. Do you think that those who do not see the doctrine in the Bible can not have or hear the Holy Spirit? hmmmm?? God is not done renewing the minds of men. No man has arrived at complete, perfect understanding has he Keith? Keith replied:
Quote But am I supposed to take your statement as meaning that all these people you promote are yet to catch up to you and become Henotheistic by adopting your belief? Keith,
Don't forget that Kathi received a “whisper.” This means that the whole dog gone world of commentators has to catch up with her. It means that all Christians throughout all centuries until Kathi's “whisper” were left in the dark. So the scriptures were unintelligible to men until Kathi received her “whisper.” And if the scriptures were unintellligible then obedience was not possible for men cannot obey what God has deliberately hidden from them. Consequently, God cannot hold them accountable.If God cannot hold men accountable to that which He has intentionally hidden from them then what did He do with them until Kathi received the “whisper?” Now we on Heaven Net who have heard the new “whisper” truth we are accountable and God can damn us. But what of those in the ages before us and those who have never visited Heaven Net? Those who have never visited Heaven Net cannot be held accountable for they have not yet recieved the truth about Kathi's “whisper.”
The only way Kathi can give the whole world her “whisper” is to go out doing signs and wonders which would verify that her anti-trinitarian “whisper” is the truth. But this would conflict with the signs and wonders of those trinitarians who would reject her “whisper.” They would say, “Our signs and wonders are proof that WE have the truth and that this woman's 'whisper' is false.”
So the world would find itself in a dilemna. They would ask, “Whose claim and whose signs and wonders should we believe?” So Kathi would need to do a Moses thing by performing signs and wonders which would swallow up the signs and wonders of the trinitarians.
If Kathi can do this I will consider her proposal that the Son of God came out of God's womb. Until then I must reject her “whisper” and hold her to scripture.
thinker
Moses was not a trinitarian. Actually neither were anyone in the scriptures. If the revelation of the trinity wasn't revealed till hundreds of years after Christ, they couldn't have been trinitarians doing all those signs and wonders in the Bible. Back in the New Testament, they called themselves Christians. There was no group that identified themselves as trinitarians.Personally Thinker-not it matters not whether you or other commentators would agree with my “whisper.” When I share my experience with people that I know and they attend trinitarian churches, they usually can see why I would understand things that way and that it makes more sense too. I have also told some that can't and they are pastors or teachers that would have to stop teaching or pastoring if they allowed themselves to consider it. I find it interesting to hear people's responses.
I have to follow what I believe that God has shown me and your constant degrading of me and lack of humility only draws me further away from whatever you would try to teach.
There are many trinitarians that I learn from but humility is one of the things I look for and love for God and His Son and mankind.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 15 2009,14:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 15 2009,14:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 15 2009,12:10) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 15 2009,11:48) Thinker………So when Jesus said the son of Man can do (NOTHING) of Himself the Father in me (HE) doth the works , He really didn't mean that? and When David spoke as a prophet and said “THE LORD (GOD) SAID UNTO MY LORD SIT ON MY RIGHT HAND UNTIL (I) MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOT STOOL”, it doesn't meant it either. How do you connect being Worthy as meaning someone (OWES) something to you?. Being Worthy of something does not mean some one owes you anything. It simply means you have the worthiness to have that honor bestowed on you, OWE has nothing to do with it. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
GeneIt has been explained to you before that when it says “he can do nothing of himself”, it is saying that he does nothing on his own initiative!
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, “but what he seeth the Father do“: “FOR WHAT THINGS SOEVER HE DOETH, THESE ALSO DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE. John 5:19
Why do you leave out the last part of the verse?
Did Jesus see what the Father does and do it also, or not!
Do you know a mere man that can make this claim?
WJ
Hi Keith,
This man claims to see what the Father is doing as well as hear the voice of God 24/7. It is an interesting interview:http://www.sidroth.org/site….id=8639
Doesn't it make you want to order the book? I did!
Blessings,
Kathi
Hi KathiWhat are you saying, that this man is equal to the “Only Son of God” or that when signs and wonders follow them that believe that the believers by their own power does the works?
Jesus claims that he does the works, how because his claim is that the Father had given all things into his hands!
Does this man claim this?
WJ
Keith,
I told you to listen and learn because of the questions you asked of me. I thought that if you would listen to the interview for yourself then you would know the answer. I didn't mean to come across as “motherly” I just thought that Mark Virkler himself would be a better one to find the answers to your questions. Too often when I post a link to a person's testimony people just don't listen but make assumptions like you did with the above quoted comments.BTW, I do listen and learn and that is why I bought the man's book. Also, people that follow the trinity doctrine are not all arrogant pin heads that follow the doctrine as an idol. Many are humble and can see that there may be other ways of looking at things and can admit that.
Kathi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 15 2009,17:17) Hi WJ,
YAHSHUA is Lord.
YAHWEH is the Father of the Lord Jesus.
NHTell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time?”have not I the LORD, (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. **Look unto me, and be ye saved**, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, “That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear”. Isa 45:21-23
There are several points that should be noted in these prophetic words of YHWH spoken through the Major Prophet Isaiah!
1.There is “No God” besides YHWH.
2.There is “no Saviour besides YHWH.
3.All the ends of the earth should look to YHWH to be saved.
4.YHWH has sworn by himself that there is “None Else”.
5.Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear (take an oath)Can the words of “YHWH” here change? Does YHWH change his mind?
The Apostle Paul draws on this scripture in referring to the “Lord Jesus” and his judgment seat!
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? “FOR WE SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST”. **For it is written**, As I live, saith the Lord (kyrios), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Rom 14:10-12
For those who have ears to hear, Paul is ascribing Isa 45 as prophetic of the judgment seat of Christ, therefore claiming that YHWH is Jesus!
Paul uses the Greek word (kyrios) in place of the Hebrew Tetragammation “YHWH” and clarifies it by saying “every one of us shall give account of himself to God”. How shall we give account to God? We shall give account at the judgment seat of God, Jesus the Lord, (YHWH).
Was Paul doing disservice to the Father? Not at all for he also confirms his words once again when he writes…
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and [things] under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, (YHWH) to the glory of God the Father”. Phil 2:9-11
WOW, Paul ascribes the scriptures in Isaiah 45:21-23 to Jesus! Truly he is God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit!
To him who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying…
WJ
Hi WJ,
So your inference is that Jesus is not the Son of God but God Himself?
Retrace your steps unless you want to call YOUR GOD a liar.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2009,08:55) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,16:34) Kathi said: Quote I'm not following a man, Keith. God loves and can work through men even though they aren't perfect and have false beliefs. Thankfully so. Do you think that those who do not see the doctrine in the Bible can not have or hear the Holy Spirit? hmmmm?? God is not done renewing the minds of men. No man has arrived at complete, perfect understanding has he Keith? Keith replied:
Quote But am I supposed to take your statement as meaning that all these people you promote are yet to catch up to you and become Henotheistic by adopting your belief? Keith,
Don't forget that Kathi received a “whisper.” This means that the whole dog gone world of commentators has to catch up with her. It means that all Christians throughout all centuries until Kathi's “whisper” were left in the dark. So the scriptures were unintelligible to men until Kathi received her “whisper.” And if the scriptures were unintellligible then obedience was not possible for men cannot obey what God has deliberately hidden from them. Consequently, God cannot hold them accountable.If God cannot hold men accountable to that which He has intentionally hidden from them then what did He do with them until Kathi received the “whisper?” Now we on Heaven Net who have heard the new “whisper” truth we are accountable and God can damn us. But what of those in the ages before us and those who have never visited Heaven Net? Those who have never visited Heaven Net cannot be held accountable for they have not yet recieved the truth about Kathi's “whisper.”
The only way Kathi can give the whole world her “whisper” is to go out doing signs and wonders which would verify that her anti-trinitarian “whisper” is the truth. But this would conflict with the signs and wonders of those trinitarians who would reject her “whisper.” They would say, “Our signs and wonders are proof that WE have the truth and that this woman's 'whisper' is false.”
So the world would find itself in a dilemna. They would ask, “Whose claim and whose signs and wonders should we believe?” So Kathi would need to do a Moses thing by performing signs and wonders which would swallow up the signs and wonders of the trinitarians.
If Kathi can do this I will consider her proposal that the Son of God came out of God's womb. Until then I must reject her “whisper” and hold her to scripture.
thinker
Hi JackHonestly I think Kathi is sincere! But I do believe she is sincerely wrong!
I do not want to be mean Spirited toward her, but I will be firm with her when she comes across with the motherly attitude that I or others need to listen and learn, when I feel that it is she who is not listening not only to her own Pastor, but as you say other credible ministrys and in fact 100s of Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars who bring us the translations and commentaries that proclaim Jesus is God and not “a god”!
I am not her judge but I do not believe for one minute that the whisper she heard was from the Holy Spirit, and I am quite sure she will say the same of me!
Kathi like others have failed to see that who and what Jesus is, is the foundation of the Christian faith, for how can you build a relationship with someone you do not know!
Thats why no man can say Jesus is Lord (YHWH) but by the Holy Spirit!
Blessings WJ
Keith,
If Kathi received a “whisper” then the original audiences to whom the scriptures were written had to wait for Kathi to be born and receive her revelation before they could know what God had told them. So all God's people who died before Kathi appeared necessarily died in ignorance.I don't think people realize the gravity of her claim. And her sincerity is questionable. She never concedes an error whereas I have conceded to her twice. People who believe they receive audible words from God in the area of interpretation tend to think they are infallible. She passes herself off as one who is compotent to handle the Greek which she is not. When proven wrong she says that you and I “argue away.” She didn't even show a willlingness to consider my point about the verb ἠγέρθη being intransitive though I gave sources for it and backed it up with a couple of examples from scripture. She even said to me “your supposed middle voice” as if I invented it. She said this AFTER I cited the two Greek textbooks. THIS IS NOT SINCERITY. This reflects the mentality of one who thinks that she is infallible and it all goes back to the supposed “whisper.”
Her views have no father which means that her doctrines are as an illegitimate child. At least you and I and even the anti-trinitarians here have some church fathers to invoke. I do not see a person who engages in such fantasy the way she does and is so unbending about it as sincere. Sorry. I think your statement about her being “motherly” is too kind. It's more like condescending.
If she were my wife I would forbid her to post her nonsense. And if she didn't listen to me I would put her over my knee (metaphorically speaking).
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 15 2009,17:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 15 2009,14:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 15 2009,14:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 15 2009,12:10) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 15 2009,11:48) Thinker………So when Jesus said the son of Man can do (NOTHING) of Himself the Father in me (HE) doth the works , He really didn't mean that? and When David spoke as a prophet and said “THE LORD (GOD) SAID UNTO MY LORD SIT ON MY RIGHT HAND UNTIL (I) MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOT STOOL”, it doesn't meant it either. How do you connect being Worthy as meaning someone (OWES) something to you?. Being Worthy of something does not mean some one owes you anything. It simply means you have the worthiness to have that honor bestowed on you, OWE has nothing to do with it. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
GeneIt has been explained to you before that when it says “he can do nothing of himself”, it is saying that he does nothing on his own initiative!
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, “but what he seeth the Father do“: “FOR WHAT THINGS SOEVER HE DOETH, THESE ALSO DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE. John 5:19
Why do you leave out the last part of the verse?
Did Jesus see what the Father does and do it also, or not!
Do you know a mere man that can make this claim?
WJ
Hi Keith,
This man claims to see what the Father is doing as well as hear the voice of God 24/7. It is an interesting interview:http://www.sidroth.org/site….id=8639
Doesn't it make you want to order the book? I did!
Blessings,
Kathi
Hi KathiWhat are you saying, that this man is equal to the “Only Son of God” or that when signs and wonders follow them that believe that the believers by their own power does the works?
Jesus claims that he does the works, how because his claim is that the Father had given all things into his hands!
Does this man claim this?
WJ
Keith,
I told you to listen and learn because of the questions you asked of me. I thought that if you would listen to the interview for yourself then you would know the answer. I didn't mean to come across as “motherly” I just thought that Mark Virkler himself would be a better one to find the answers to your questions. Too often when I post a link to a person's testimony people just don't listen but make assumptions like you did with the above quoted comments.BTW, I do listen and learn and that is why I bought the man's book. Also, people that follow the trinity doctrine are not all arrogant pin heads that follow the doctrine as an idol. Many are humble and can see that there may be other ways of looking at things and can admit that.
Kathi
Hi KathiWhat was the answer? I listened, but nothing in his interview implys that by our own power we could do anything.
Jesus could and Jesus does! And now that we know the man is a Trinitarian, he could not be saying that Jesus had no power of his own! Jesus healed people and raised them from the dead and claimed that it was not only the Father but he himself that did the works.
We can never make the claim that we healed anyone, but infact give credit to Jesus!
Maybe you didnt know this man was a Trinitarian, therfore you were listening with different ears!
I think that most people that listen to you and are not what you call “Arrogant pinheads” have not had the same heated debates and arguments with you about it, therfore they give you grace.
I try to do the same, but when you or others start the patronizing or stone throwing then I get firm. Do you think Jesus showed sloppy agape to the Pharisees and the Saducees? Jesus was not very tolorant of false teachers at all!
Truthfully, Jesus called them vipers and hypocrites and children of the devil!
When you accuse me of being disengenuous in my faith by what you call being true-ish, then I simply point out your own vanity!
However, I know that we will still Love one another and go on.
Blessings Keith
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 16 2009,03:08) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 16 2009,02:21) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,08:33) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,06:34) Jodi Lee said: Quote The Father has appointed Jesus to be a king, TO ALL:
Can you see how Jodi Lee cleverly worded her statement? She said that the Father appointed Jesus to be “a king” (indefinite article and small case “k”). She is clearly disobedient to the word of God.
Nathaniel did not say to Jesus, “You are a king of Israel.” He said, “You are THE King of Israel.” Jesus did not ride into Jerusalem as “a king” of Israel. He rode into Jerusalem as THE King of Israel.
The inscription on His cross did not read “This is Jesus of Nazareth a king of the Jews.” It read, “This is Jesus of Nazaereth THE King of the Jews.”
There is only ONE King Jodi:
that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 6:15)
It says that Jesus Christ is the “ONLY” King of kings and Lord of lords.” Does “only” mean “only” here as it does in John 17:3?
Btw, the scripture says that God was Christ's Father. God was NEVER called Christ's king. The word “god” does not necessarily imply sovereignty for men and angels were called “gods.” But the word “basileus” (King) implies sovereignty.
thinker
TT, not only do you continually deny many plain and direct scriptures, you also misinterpret the ones you use in your defense.
1 Timothy 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Verse 15 the 'He' there is the Father, Christ did not know the time of his appearing, but the Father knew, it was according to the Father's designated time. Plus sinful men certainly saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. No man, except Jesus has literally seen the Father. YHWH dwells in unapproachable light, because sin cannot be in the presence of Our Almighty Father. This is one of the reasons WHY Jesus is our mediator. Jesus was certainly able to appear before men, he even ate and drank with them.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Our Almighty Father, YHWH, is the ultimate King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He alone is immortal, but He has given through His Spirit immortality to man, beginning with Jesus.
We see from scripture that Our Almighty Father has throughout time appointed certain men to be king of kings,
Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, To Ezra the priest, a scribe of the Law of the God of heaven: Perfect peace, and so forth.
Ezekiel 26:7 “For thus says the Lord God: 'Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people.
Daniel 2:37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all–you are this head of gold. 39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
Revelation 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
Ac 3:26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
The Father raised up His SERVANT Jesus and made him to become ruler of His kingdom. Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of His Father and His God, and be a Mediator for His Father unto us.
Let's not IGNORE scripture!
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Our Almighty Father appointed the MAN, Jesus to be King over all the kings that will rule with Christ when he returns to FINISH the work of His Father.
Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
Jesus, as our appointed King of kings, RECEIVES all things from His Father, of whom Jesus also calls, his God. Even that which Jesus himself will accomplish in the future comes not from his own will but from that of his Father's.
Good Morning Thinker,I think you must have missed this post bro!
Jodi Lee,
I did not miss the post. If you scroll up you will see that I answered it in part. The statements that God the Father is above all does not include Jesus. He is at the Father's right hand so Jesus must be excluded. So I fail to see how the Father's appointing Him to be King disproves trinitarianism. If the Father appointed Him as King then He is really the ONLY King. Paul said that Jesus existed in God's form and then humbled Himself and made Himself nothing. He yielded to God and was rewarded for His obedience. The Father gave back to Him the rank He had before He took on the form of a servant.This is not rocket science Sis!
Paul said that all things were created by Jesus and FOR Jesus. He said also that Christ is “all in all” now (Col. 3:11). Therefore, all the statements that refer to th
e Father as “above all” must EXCLUDE Jesus. Again, this is not rocket science.that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Don't forget Revelation 19 also which says that the name “King of kings and Lord of lords” is Christ's name. This is solified by what is said immediately before that “He Himself” will rule with a rod of iron and that “He Himself” will tread the winepress.
I want to add one more text about Christ's knowing ALL things now. Revelation 5 says that no one was counted worthy to read the scroll except the Lamb Himself. Guess what Sis? The scroll contains ALL the events leading to His second coming including the TIMING of those events. Both the reading and the interpretation of the scroll has been given TO THE LAMB.
But you will say, “Aha! The Father gave Him the scroll so He is under the Father.” But it says that it was given to Him because HE IS WORTHY. If worthy then the Father owed it to Him.
***You constantly fail to tell the whole story.*** A half truth is a LIE.
Does “only” mean “only” as you say it does in John 17:3?
thinker
Yes exactly it was GIVEN to the Lamb, it did not COME from the Lamb, it came from the Father and was given to the Lamb.Jesus is above every human and has authority over every human, this is given to him by the Father. The authority of which Jesus has been given is the AUTHORITY to CARRY out the PLANS and WILL of YHWH, his Father.
TT, just look at what these scriptures show,
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
Jesus had to receive that which he would do in the future from his Father.
Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence. 44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
Jesus is still doing the work of his Father
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
If Jesus were raised from the dead to become the One True God again, then why would he need to be GIVEN authority? Obviously if you have been GIVEN authority you sit under the person who gave it to you. The authority that was given to Jesus, is proven not to be a sort of authority for Jesus to do whatever he wanted with it, but it is a specific authority, the authority to carry out the Father's will and plan.
John 20:19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.[/b]“
Jesus is STILL under the FATHER and doing what the Father asks. The Father SENT Jesus to the disciples.
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
Delusional Trinitarians FREE your eyes of blindness! Jesus is the CHRIST, of which was spoken about unto the fathers. The Christ was said to be a HUMAN of the seed of David, that would not see corruption, and would become an eternal king. Now that Jesus has been raised from the dead he is fulfilling the REST of the promises of which his Father made to the prophets. Jesus is fulfilling the will and the plan of his Father. The above scripture goes completely against the idea that Jesus was raised back into being the One True God and is now carrying out his own will.
Acts 3:24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.“ 31 A
nd when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.Jesus is STILL a servant unto his Father, he received authority from his Father so he could effectively carry out his Father's plans. Jesus earned this authority not through being raised from the dead and going back to being the One True God, but because he was the CHRIST. Scripture specifically tells us that the FATHER is the One True God, and that Jesus is the CHRIST, the human Messiah, firstborn of the dead, the root and offspring of David.
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,18:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2009,08:55) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,16:34) Kathi said: Quote I'm not following a man, Keith. God loves and can work through men even though they aren't perfect and have false beliefs. Thankfully so. Do you think that those who do not see the doctrine in the Bible can not have or hear the Holy Spirit? hmmmm?? God is not done renewing the minds of men. No man has arrived at complete, perfect understanding has he Keith? Keith replied:
Quote But am I supposed to take your statement as meaning that all these people you promote are yet to catch up to you and become Henotheistic by adopting your belief? Keith,
Don't forget that Kathi received a “whisper.” This means that the whole dog gone world of commentators has to catch up with her. It means that all Christians throughout all centuries until Kathi's “whisper” were left in the dark. So the scriptures were unintelligible to men until Kathi received her “whisper.” And if the scriptures were unintellligible then obedience was not possible for men cannot obey what God has deliberately hidden from them. Consequently, God cannot hold them accountable.If God cannot hold men accountable to that which He has intentionally hidden from them then what did He do with them until Kathi received the “whisper?” Now we on Heaven Net who have heard the new “whisper” truth we are accountable and God can damn us. But what of those in the ages before us and those who have never visited Heaven Net? Those who have never visited Heaven Net cannot be held accountable for they have not yet recieved the truth about Kathi's “whisper.”
The only way Kathi can give the whole world her “whisper” is to go out doing signs and wonders which would verify that her anti-trinitarian “whisper” is the truth. But this would conflict with the signs and wonders of those trinitarians who would reject her “whisper.” They would say, “Our signs and wonders are proof that WE have the truth and that this woman's 'whisper' is false.”
So the world would find itself in a dilemna. They would ask, “Whose claim and whose signs and wonders should we believe?” So Kathi would need to do a Moses thing by performing signs and wonders which would swallow up the signs and wonders of the trinitarians.
If Kathi can do this I will consider her proposal that the Son of God came out of God's womb. Until then I must reject her “whisper” and hold her to scripture.
thinker
Hi JackHonestly I think Kathi is sincere! But I do believe she is sincerely wrong!
I do not want to be mean Spirited toward her, but I will be firm with her when she comes across with the motherly attitude that I or others need to listen and learn, when I feel that it is she who is not listening not only to her own Pastor, but as you say other credible ministrys and in fact 100s of Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars who bring us the translations and commentaries that proclaim Jesus is God and not “a god”!
I am not her judge but I do not believe for one minute that the whisper she heard was from the Holy Spirit, and I am quite sure she will say the same of me!
Kathi like others have failed to see that who and what Jesus is, is the foundation of the Christian faith, for how can you build a relationship with someone you do not know!
Thats why no man can say Jesus is Lord (YHWH) but by the Holy Spirit!
Blessings WJ
Keith,
If Kathi received a “whisper” then original audiences to whom the scriptures were written had to wait for Kathi to be born and receive her revelation before they could know what God had told them. So all God's people who died before Kathi appeared necessarily died in ignorance.I don't think people realize the gravity of her claim. And her sincerity is questionable. She never concedes an error whereas I have conceded to her twice. People who believe they receive audible words from God in the area of interpretation tend to think they are infallible. She passes herself off as one who is compotent to handle the Greek which she is not. When proven wrong she says that you and I “argue away.” She didn't even show a willlingness to consider my point about the verb ἠγέρθη being intransitive though I gave sources for it and backed it up with a couple of examples from scripture. She even said to me “your supposed middle voice” as if I invented it. She said this AFTER I cited the two Greek textbooks. THIS IS NOT SINCERITY. This reflects the mentality of one who thinks that she is infallible and it all goes back to the supposed “whisper.”
Her views have no father which means that her doctrines are as an illegitimate child. At least you and I and even the anti-trinitarians here have some church fathers to invoke. I do not see a person who engages in such fantasy the way she does and is so unbending about it as sincere. Sorry. I think your statement about her being “motherly” is too kind. It's more like condescending.
If she were my wife I would forbid her to post her nonsense. And if she didn't listen to me I would put her over my knee (metaphorically speaking).
thinker
Hi JackI don't know about the last part!
If I tried to put my wife over my knee, she probably would reverse the role!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 16 2009,03:08) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 16 2009,02:21) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,08:33) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,06:34) Jodi Lee said: Quote The Father has appointed Jesus to be a king, TO ALL:
Can you see how Jodi Lee cleverly worded her statement? She said that the Father appointed Jesus to be “a king” (indefinite article and small case “k”). She is clearly disobedient to the word of God.
Nathaniel did not say to Jesus, “You are a king of Israel.” He said, “You are THE King of Israel.” Jesus did not ride into Jerusalem as “a king” of Israel. He rode into Jerusalem as THE King of Israel.
The inscription on His cross did not read “This is Jesus of Nazareth a king of the Jews.” It read, “This is Jesus of Nazaereth THE King of the Jews.”
There is only ONE King Jodi:
that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 6:15)
It says that Jesus Christ is the “ONLY” King of kings and Lord of lords.” Does “only” mean “only” here as it does in John 17:3?
Btw, the scripture says that God was Christ's Father. God was NEVER called Christ's king. The word “god” does not necessarily imply sovereignty for men and angels were called “gods.” But the word “basileus” (King) implies sovereignty.
thinker
TT, not only do you continually deny many plain and direct scriptures, you also misinterpret the ones you use in your defense.
1 Timothy 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Verse 15 the 'He' there is the Father, Christ did not know the time of his appearing, but the Father knew, it was according to the Father's designated time. Plus sinful men certainly saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. No man, except Jesus has literally seen the Father. YHWH dwells in unapproachable light, because sin cannot be in the presence of Our Almighty Father. This is one of the reasons WHY Jesus is our mediator. Jesus was certainly able to appear before men, he even ate and drank with them.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Our Almighty Father, YHWH, is the ultimate King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He alone is immortal, but He has given through His Spirit immortality to man, beginning with Jesus.
We see from scripture that Our Almighty Father has throughout time appointed certain men to be king of kings,
Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, To Ezra the priest, a scribe of the Law of the God of heaven: Perfect peace, and so forth.
Ezekiel 26:7 “For thus says the Lord God: 'Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people.
Daniel 2:37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all–you are this head of gold. 39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
Revelation 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
Ac 3:26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
The Father raised up His SERVANT Jesus and made him to become ruler of His kingdom. Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of His Father and His God, and be a Mediator for His Father unto us.
Let's not IGNORE scripture!
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Our Almighty Father appointed the MAN, Jesus to be King over all the kings that will rule with Christ when he returns to FINISH the work of His Father.
Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
Jesus, as our appointed King of kings, RECEIVES all things from His Father, of whom Jesus also calls, his God. Even that which Jesus himself will accomplish in the future comes not from his own will but from that of his Father's.
Good Morning Thinker,I think you must have missed this post bro!
Jodi Lee,
I did not miss the post. If you scroll up you will see that I answered it in part. The statements that God the Father is above all does not include Jesus. He is at the Father's right hand so Jesus must be excluded. So I fail to see how the Father's appointing Him to be King disproves trinitarianism. If the Father appointed Him as King then He is really the ONLY King. Paul said that Jesus existed in God's form and then humbled Himself and made Himself nothing. He yielded to God and was rewarded for His obedience. The Father gave back to Him the rank He had before He took on the form of a servant.This is not rocket science Sis!
Paul said that all things were created by Jesus and FOR Jesus. He said also that Christ is “all in all” now (Col. 3:11). Therefore, all the statements that refer to th
e Father as “above all” must EXCLUDE Jesus. Again, this is not rocket science.that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Don't forget Revelation 19 also which says that the name “King of kings and Lord of lords” is Christ's name. This is solified by what is said immediately before that “He Himself” will rule with a rod of iron and that “He Himself” will tread the winepress.
I want to add one more text about Christ's knowing ALL things now. Revelation 5 says that no one was counted worthy to read the scroll except the Lamb Himself. Guess what Sis? The scroll contains ALL the events leading to His second coming including the TIMING of those events. Both the reading and the interpretation of the scroll has been given TO THE LAMB.
But you will say, “Aha! The Father gave Him the scroll so He is under the Father.” But it says that it was given to Him because HE IS WORTHY. If worthy then the Father owed it to Him.
***You constantly fail to tell the whole story.*** A half truth is a LIE.
Does “only” mean “only” as you say it does in John 17:3?
thinker
Yes you are right this is not rocket science!As I showed in my previous post, Jesus is STILL referred, AFTER his resurrection, as the SERVANT of the Father. Jesus is still RECEIVING information of what to do from his Father, and the Father is STILL sending His Son to DO things FOR Him! Jesus is carrying out the plans that the Father made and had revealed to the prophets long ago. Clearly Jesus is UNDER the authority of HIS God!
Re 5:12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
WORTHY is the HUMAN being who died on the CROSS, not worthy is the One True God!
If Jesus went back to being the One True God, he would NEED to receive power, riches and wisdom now would he?
1 Timothy 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
TT are you trying to tell me that NO man has SEEN Jesus?
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,18:57) If Jesus were raised from the dead to become the One True God again, then why would he need to be GIVEN authority?
You really do not listen very well at all or you just choose not to hear!Jack has never implied in the slightest that Jesus rose “from the dead to become the One True God again”.
In light of Phil 2 Jesus who was in the form of God, emptied himself for us, (which by the way is proof of his deity) by leaving the Glory he shared with the Father and has returned to the Glory that he had with the Father!
Tell me Jodi, when was Jesus rich and become poor so that we might be rich?
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that “though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor“, so that you through his poverty might become rich. 2 Cor 8:9
Is there any scriptural support for Jesus being rich in this world? If not then it only stands to reason the Apostle Paul is speaking of his preexisting status with the Father before he emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh!
WJ
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,19:13) TT are you trying to tell me that NO man has SEEN Jesus? Can you see Jesus in the light he dwells in now?
Do you think it is possible for any mortal man to see Jesus in all of his Glory? This is what the Apostle Paul is speaking of you know.
Remember when Paul had the vision of his Glory on the road to Damascus, the great light that he saw blinded him!
Rest assured that 1 Tim 6:13-16 is contextually speaking of Jesus who is dwelling in the light which no man has seen or can see!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2009,11:17) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,18:57) If Jesus were raised from the dead to become the One True God again, then why would he need to be GIVEN authority?
You really do not listen very well at all or you just choose not to hear!Jack has never implied in the slightest that Jesus rose “from the dead to become the One True God again”.
In light of Phil 2 Jesus who was in the form of God, emptied himself for us, (which by the way is proof of his deity) by leaving the Glory he shared with the Father and has returned to the Glory that he had with the Father!
Tell me Jodi, when was Jesus rich and become poor so that we might be rich?
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that “though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor“, so that you through his poverty might become rich. 2 Cor 8:9
Is there any scriptural support for Jesus being rich in this world? If not then it only stands to reason the Apostle Paul is speaking of his preexisting status with the Father before he emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh!
WJ
WJ,Do you and Jack believe that Jesus is the One True God or NOT? I am confused.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,19:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2009,11:17) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,18:57) If Jesus were raised from the dead to become the One True God again, then why would he need to be GIVEN authority?
You really do not listen very well at all or you just choose not to hear!Jack has never implied in the slightest that Jesus rose “from the dead to become the One True God again”.
In light of Phil 2 Jesus who was in the form of God, emptied himself for us, (which by the way is proof of his deity) by leaving the Glory he shared with the Father and has returned to the Glory that he had with the Father!
Tell me Jodi, when was Jesus rich and become poor so that we might be rich?
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that “though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor“, so that you through his poverty might become rich. 2 Cor 8:9
Is there any scriptural support for Jesus being rich in this world? If not then it only stands to reason the Apostle Paul is speaking of his preexisting status with the Father before he emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh!
WJ
WJ,Do you and Jack believe that Jesus is the One True God or NOT? I am confused.
Hi JodiI understand how you can be confused!
You try to seperate the ontological nature of Jesus from the Fathers!
Thats kind of like trying to prove that your Son cannot be human like his Dad because he is his Son!
There is “One True God”, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, these three are “ONE”.
You still cannot grasp “Plural Unity” can you?
WJ
Hi WJ,
You never run out of duct tape and glue that hold together the fabrication you have raised against the truth of scripture do you?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2009,11:17) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,18:57) If Jesus were raised from the dead to become the One True God again, then why would he need to be GIVEN authority?
You really do not listen very well at all or you just choose not to hear!Jack has never implied in the slightest that Jesus rose “from the dead to become the One True God again”.
In light of Phil 2 Jesus who was in the form of God, emptied himself for us, (which by the way is proof of his deity) by leaving the Glory he shared with the Father and has returned to the Glory that he had with the Father!
Tell me Jodi, when was Jesus rich and become poor so that we might be rich?
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that “though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor“, so that you through his poverty might become rich. 2 Cor 8:9
Is there any scriptural support for Jesus being rich in this world? If not then it only stands to reason the Apostle Paul is speaking of his preexisting status with the Father before he emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh!
WJ
Hi WJ,2Co 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
The above scripture hardly says anything to the effect that an eternal god son gave up everything to become a man, but then was raised to receive it all back again.
The CHRIST, the human Messiah born of the seed of David was given riches, gifts of the Holy Spirit, but he did not use them for himself, instead he fully submitted them to the will of his Father FOR OUR SAKE, being poor dying on the cross. This action produced for us the richness of salvation!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,19:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2009,11:17) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 15 2009,18:57) If Jesus were raised from the dead to become the One True God again, then why would he need to be GIVEN authority?
You really do not listen very well at all or you just choose not to hear!Jack has never implied in the slightest that Jesus rose “from the dead to become the One True God again”.
In light of Phil 2 Jesus who was in the form of God, emptied himself for us, (which by the way is proof of his deity) by leaving the Glory he shared with the Father and has returned to the Glory that he had with the Father!
Tell me Jodi, when was Jesus rich and become poor so that we might be rich?
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that “though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor“, so that you through his poverty might become rich. 2 Cor 8:9
Is there any scriptural support for Jesus being rich in this world? If not then it only stands to reason the Apostle Paul is speaking of his preexisting status with the Father before he emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh!
WJ
Hi WJ,2Co 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
The above scripture hardly says anything to the effect that an eternal god son gave up everything to become a man, but then was raised to receive it all back again.
The CHRIST, the human Messiah born of the seed of David was given riches, gifts of the Holy Spirit, but he did not use them for himself, instead he fully submitted them to the will of his Father FOR OUR SAKE, being poor dying on the cross. This action produced for us the richness of salvation!
Hi JodiNice oppologetic answer but you get a “0” for your answer!
The Greek word for “Rich” is almost invariably used in scriptures for being rich in this world, and being poor would not mean that the rich man did not use his riches for himself!
Foolish logic
If what you are saying is true then Jesus was given gifts that made him rich and never gave them up!
So he was still rich because he still had them, but then you say he was poor and died on the cross!
When was he rich then? If being poor means that he did not use them for himself then being rich would mean he used them for himself!
Your logic is flawed! That is not at all what the Apostle meant!
WJ
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