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Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 14 2010,23:52) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 14 2010,09:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 14 2010,16:12) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 14 2010,00:11) The quesiton arose in my mind: God: Muslim God is the same God as the Christian God? So I quickly checked online to see what the differences are: The Quran's Surah 17 111 says: “Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) domain.
Surah 4 171 says: “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor, say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah and His Word. . .”
Surah 23 102, “Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy — they will attain salvation. . .”
Another important distinction is that throughout the Quran, the teachings are to destroy all others outside of Islam in the name of Allah.
Origin of Islam: According to Secular History
The origin of Islam can be traced back to 7th century Saudi Arabia. Islam is thus the youngest of the great world religions. The prophet Muhammad (circa 570-632 A.D.) introduced Islam in 610 A.D. after experiencing what he claimed to be an angelic visitation. Muhammad dictated the Qur'an, the holy book of Islam, which Muslims believe to be the preexistent, perfect words of Allah.the Qur'an explicitly denies Jesus Christ's crucifixion (Sura 4:157-158)
Qur'an teaches that Ishmael was the child of promise (Sura 19:54; compare Sura 37:83-109 with Genesis 22:1-19)
Psa 5:9 There is nothing reliable in what they say; Their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; They flatter with their tongue.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
What did Abraham believe? That thru Isaac God's promises would come, not thru Ishmael. Beginning the age-long feud between the two.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
Gal 4:23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
Gal 4:29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Tts 3:10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
Tts 3:11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
Jhn 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The Professor
Surah 39101 So We gave him the good news of a boy, possessing forbearance.
102 And when he attained to working with him, he said: O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father! do what you are commanded; if Allah please, you will find me of the patient ones.
103 So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,
104 And We called out to him saying: O Ibrahim!
105 You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good:
106 Most surely this is a manifest trial.
107 And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.You seem to be confused there is no mention that this child was Ishmael The Quran simply says that Ishmael was a prophet and God was with him just as it says in the Bible
Also God does not beget sons unless you consider Solomon the son of God and others who were called the son of God. To say on this day I have begotten thee is a metaphor obviously since the person is already Alive.
Hi Bod,Read Genesis 16 and 17 and you'll see God talking about Ishmael. I usually quote from the Bible or a dictionary. As for your books who knows? You'd know better.
You were right about there being many allegories. The OT is full of them. They speak of what is happening literally in the present tense for them and then they prophesy in the future with the same words. Too many passages are that way and can confuse many. The NT on the other hand (minus Revelation) has already occurred, but it is in Greek that people manipulate to say that the words are incorrectly translated or don't mean what it means. Thereby causing many debates and heated discussions.
God has begotten only one son, but you know that; all other sons were either created or adopted.
Your Allah apparently hasn't and won't have a son, thereby making your Allah different from my Elohim.
You can look it up: Qur'an teaches that Ishmael was the child of promise (Sura 19:54; compare Sura 37:83-109 with Genesis 22:1-19)(Copied from the internet article)
Yes, God's first act of creation was His son. Col 1:15 Jesus is the firstborn of all creation….so you are right, he already existed when this verse was penned.
The Professor
Surah 1954 Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma'il: He was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was an apostle (and) a prophet.
This verse does not say he was the child of promise it says that Ismael was true to “his” promise, what was his promise? read below, do you not understand that he was also under the covenant which God made with Abraham and was circumcised the same day?
55 He used to enjoin on his people Prayer and Charity, and he was most acceptable in the sight of his Lord
You should never simply read articles they are geared towards directing your thought, had you simply read the surah and verse that was mentioned you would have known the truth of this matter.
second of all when you say first born of all creation what does that even mean does God give birth as humans do? These words are confusing you and I will prove it what does God say?
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:21-23Now you have a problem here either Jesus is the firstborn or Israel is? Or the term means something completely different.
And if you know that the verse says “on this day I have begotten thee” at a time when Jesus was already existing then you will realize that God has not beget any son in the sense of procreat
ion because as you rightly said God CREATED Jesus not PROCREATED/BEGAT like an animal or a man.Far be it for God to need to beget when HE creates he simply says “BE” and it is “Gotten”
Hello Bod,It is interesting that you ask a question and say that you will prove otherwise and do no such thing. Also, I noticed that your book reads worse than our King James Version.
You didn't respond to any of the quotes from your book so, they must be true.
I usually spend my time reading the Bible and yes, it does direct my thoughts.
It is good that you direct me to your truths, which validated what was posted at the beginning of the thread.
I direct you to mine.
Firstborn is literal and allegorical and you know that, too. You jump from the literal and then go to the allegorical to cause an argument but advise others not to do that.
But for your allegory: Israel is not a person but a nation and God's chosen people.
Jesus is God's firstborn and only begotten son which you also know because you have responded to many threads concerning this.
So, after acquiring so much knowledge and knowing the difference between your book and the Bible why would you voluntarily choose to be at this site? The Bible says not to try to cause dissension.
I don't go to Trinitarians churches because if I did then I would have to address their incorrect teachings which would be confrontational and a form of trying to cause dissension, no? They have their belief system and I know it conflicts with the Bible. They have their church and don't know the Bible. They have a right to choose their own poison and they will be held accountable for not following the Bible. God calls His people to come out of her.
Satan quoted the Bible and missed its meanings and misrepresented the intent. He tried to annihilate first mankind and then the Israelites. He is a murderer and Father of lies from the beginning. Why try to deceive the little ones with half-truths as Satan did when he quoted God's words? Which did not come out of your book.
It is good that you are here though as I learned a lot from this post about the debauchery (to lead into a life of depraved self-indulgence)and methods you employ. Misery loves company is the saying that comes to mind.
It is very similar to what the Mormons did with their books, too. Copy a lot of the Bible and then insert what they wanted. I keep waiting to see the golden tablets that were supposed to have been given to Joseph Smith.
You read the words but miss the truth behind the words. In order for you to do so, your heart must be hardened and your eyes blinded. But not by my God.
Or, this is just a “con” job (and a sting operation) and YOU don't really exist…just the philosophy being perpetrated.
The Professor
The book of Mormon is the book of Mormon and it really doesn't matter to me how it was composed as there
is nothing really important in it that edifies me.The Quran is a revelation that when read can be clearly seen as The Word of God in a much more clear way.
In The Quran the words are being recited not like a third person narrative but as Gabriel speaking to Muhammad
Muhammad doesn't actually speak in the Quran but is being spoken to
Hello Asana…
The problem I'm having with what you just wrote above is that for me, you've done nothing but assert something. And like I've said before, anyone, even a 5 year old, can assert things. There are people all over the world who are hungry for the truth… and you can't just assert things and expect rational people to uncritically accept what you assert. For the simple reason I have already stated, and that is ANYONE can assert anything.
Child Molestors assert that it is not wrong to molest little children. The flat-earthers assert that the earth is flat. There are people who assert that the Holocaust never happened. There are people who assert that Jesus never died by crucifixion. There are people who assert that Elvis is still alive. There are people who assert that the U.S. never landed people on the moon. On and on it goes.
Asana…. think about what you wrote for us in your above response to davidbfun. To show how meaningless your post is for rational people wanting to know the truth because they are hungry for truth… all we need to do is swap the teachings of Islam with the teachings of Mormonism in your above post.
When we do this, your post will look like the following…
The Quran is the book of Islam and it really doesn't matter to me how it was composed as there is nothing really important in it that edifies me.
The Book of Mormon is a revelation that when read can be clearly seen as The Word of God in a much more clear way.
In The Book of Mormon the words are being recited not like a third person narrative but as Maroni speaking to Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith doesn't actually speak in the Quran but is being spoken to (thru the golden tablets left by the Angel Maroni)
Now please hear me… I am NOT saying that the Quran is wrong or meaningless. And I am NOT saying that the book of Mormon is wrong or meaningless. I am NOT making any value judgments about either belief system. What I am saying… and the only thing I'm saying is that your post is meaningless (in the pursuit of knowledge) for rational people who are interested in knowing what is true. Your post doesn't help anyone to know if what you say is true in the first place.
By keeping the form of your statements… and only switching Mormonism for Islam in your statements… we can see clearly that you've done nothing but assert things… which is what Mormonism also does.
We as Christians believe that we can support and demonstrate thru archeaology and historical facts and logic and reason and science… and by using the historical methods which is applied to all written documents… by applying critical methods of scholarship… thru DEDUCTION AND INDUCTION… thru the application of “inference to the best conclusion” as used in logic… we believe that thru these methods we can rationally demonstrate that the proposition that Jesus is the Messiah… is more likely true than not… and that Jesus was divine and human.
Whether or not you believe Jesus was the Messiah is not the point at all. Not at all. The only point I'm making here is that I don't see you offering ANY evidence for your above statements… or for what you believe.
All I've seen you do… and I admit I have not read everything you've written (you've written almost 6,000 posts)… but all I see you doing is just assert your beliefs without any attempt towards giving us a positive logical defense for your faith.
Whether or not Christianity is true… at least Christians do present a positive logical defense for their beliefs which can be analyzed and debated and looked at by both sides in an objective manner in a debate.
Anyway Asana… I know you are a good person… and I hope I have not offended you. But sometimes it is good to see things with a different pair of eyeballs. And that is all I'm trying to do in here.
Please take what I say with that in mind.
Respectfully
FrancisHello Asana…
The problem I'm having with what you just wrote above is that for me, you've done nothing but assert something. And like I've said before, anyone, even a 5 year old, can assert things. There are people all over the world who are hungry for the truth… and you can't just assert things and expect rational people to uncritically accept what you assert. For the simple reason I have already stated, and that is ANYONE can assert anything.
Child Molestors assert that it is not wrong to molest little children. The flat-earthers assert that the earth is flat. There are people who assert that the Holocaust never happened. There are people who assert that Jesus never died by crucifixion. There are people who assert that Elvis is still alive. There are people who assert that the U.S. never landed people on the moon. On and on it goes.
Asana…. think about what you wrote for us in your above response to davidbfun. To show how meaningless your post is for rational people wanting to know the truth because they are hungry for truth… all we need to do is swap the teachings of Islam with the teachings of Mormonism in your above post.
When we do this, your post will look like the following…
The Quran is the book of Islam and it really doesn't matter to me how it was composed as there is nothing really important in it that edifies me.
The Book of Mormon is a revelation that when read can be clearly seen as The Word of God in a much more clear way.
In The Book of Mormon the words are being recited not like a third person narrative but as Maroni speaking to Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith doesn't actually speak in the Quran but is being spoken to (thru the golden tablets left by the Angel Maroni)
Now please hear me… I am NOT saying that the Quran is wrong or meaningless. And I am NOT saying that the book of Mormon is wrong or meaningless. I am NOT making any value judgments about either belief system. What I am saying… and the only thing I'm saying is that your post is meaningless (in the pursuit of knowledge) for rational people who are interested in knowing what is true. Your post doesn't help anyone to know if what you say is true in the first place.
By keeping the form of your statements… and only switching Mormonism for Islam in your statements… we can see clearly that you've done nothing but assert things… which is what Mormonism also does.
We as Christians believe that we can support and demonstrate thru archeaology and historical facts and logic and reason and science… and by using the historical methods which is applied to all written documents… by applying critical methods of scholarship… thru DEDUCTION AND INDUCTION… thru the application of “inference to the best conclusion” as used in logic… we believe that thru these methods we can rationally demonstrate that the proposition that Jesus is the Messiah… is more likely true than not… and that Jesus was divine and human.
Whether or not you believe Jesus was the Messiah is not the point at all. Not at all. The only point I'm making here is that I don't see you offering ANY evidence for your above statements… or for what you believe.
All I've seen you do… and I admit I have not read everything you've written (you've written almost 6,000 posts)… but all I see you doing is just assert your beliefs without any attempt towards giving us a positive logical defense for your faith.
Whether or not Christianity is true… at least Christians do present a positive logical defense for their beliefs which can be analyzed and debated and looked at by both sides in an objective manner in a debate.
Anyway Asana… I know you are a good person… and I hope I have not offended you. But sometimes it is good to see things with a different pair of eyeballs. And that is all I'm trying to do in here.
Please take what I say with that in mind.
Respectfully
FrancisSheesh… in another forum… I was able to amend and edit mistakes to a post I had written even after it was posted. I can't seem to be able to do that in here. Is there a way to edit a mistake made in a post after the post has already been submitted?
I ask this because I noticed I made a mistake in this line… I wrote:
Joseph Smith doesn't actually speak in the Quran but is being spoken to (thru the golden tablets left by the Angel Maroni)
I meant to write:
Joseph Smith doesn't actually speak in the Book of Mormon but is being spoken to (thru the golden tablets left by the Angel Maroni)
sorry for the mistake
Respectfully
FrancisQuote Whether or not Christianity is true… at least Christians do present a positive logical defense for their beliefs which can be analyzed and debated and looked at by both sides in an objective manner in a debate. How is it possible to be objective in Christianity or any religion?
In the book of Mormon Joseph Smith is not being spoken to not even he claimed such a thing. The book of Mormon is supposed to be a book left for prosterity and my point was in saying it does not edify is to say that there is no obvious connection to the revelatory style of the Torah or Gospel it could very well be a true book written by a true prophet named Moroni but it doesn't reveal anything new in and of itself.
The mormons have practices that are not recorded in the book of Mormon so the book itself is benign but not helpful whether it be true or false.
The Quran however is consequential because it is revelatory in the book itself it does not denounce any former writings but instead it clarifies incident after incident of the former writings. It actually addresses the “trinity” which you seem to hold dear but wasn't an actual accepted belief for hundreds of years after Christ, it addresses Christ being called “God” which was never part of the original gospel.
The Quran is a clarification of all that has come before it was sent down, it is God setting things straight with HIS creation.
Quote We as Christians believe that we can support and demonstrate thru archeaology and historical facts and logic and reason and science This statement is so far off that I won't even debate it, if what you were saying was true there would not be over 39,000 denominations just to say “we as Christians believe” is enough to make me say “stop!” there is hardly more than 2 or 3 Christians in this entire forum that can agree on more than a few points. Some believe Jesus is God and there is no trinity some believe that Jesus is God and there is a trinity and on and on Jesus was made, Jesus is eternal…. there is no concensus only what you subjectively create.
I also believe you are not only a good person but I will go so far as to say you are a remarkable person because it is clearly obvious that you are a true lover of God and to me and the Quran that is enough
Quote (francis @ Aug. 17 2010,02:57) Sheesh… in another forum… I was able to amend and edit mistakes to a post I had written even after it was posted. I can't seem to be able to do that in here. Is there a way to edit a mistake made in a post after the post has already been submitted? Respectfully
Francis
Hi Francis,Only non believers are denied the right to edit in this forum.
You are obviously not in this category.Just PM T8 or Heaven and ask for editing priviliges.
TIm
Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 17 2010,05:51) Quote (francis @ Aug. 17 2010,02:57) Sheesh… in another forum… I was able to amend and edit mistakes to a post I had written even after it was posted. I can't seem to be able to do that in here. Is there a way to edit a mistake made in a post after the post has already been submitted? Respectfully
Francis
Hi Francis,Only non believers are denied the right to edit in this forum.
You are obviously not in this category.Just PM T8 or Heaven and ask for editing priviliges.
TIm
Non believers according to their bias opinion of what a believer isQuote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 17 2010,06:04) Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 17 2010,05:51) Quote (francis @ Aug. 17 2010,02:57) Sheesh… in another forum… I was able to amend and edit mistakes to a post I had written even after it was posted. I can't seem to be able to do that in here. Is there a way to edit a mistake made in a post after the post has already been submitted? Respectfully
Francis
Hi Francis,Only non believers are denied the right to edit in this forum.
You are obviously not in this category.Just PM T8 or Heaven and ask for editing priviliges.
TIm
Non believers according to their bias opinion of what a believer is
I agree!Tim
Hello Asana…
Quote Francis
Whether or not Christianity is true… at least Christians do present a positive logical defense for their beliefs which can be analyzed and debated and looked at by both sides in an objective manner in a debate.Asana
How is it possible to be objective in Christianity or any religion?
I was talking about being objective in regard to the facts… NOT the teaching. Whether or not Jesus existed is an objective question which historians find the facts about. The existence of Muhammad is the same thing. You can be objective or debate or analyze, in an objective manner, whether or not it is factually true that Jesus or Muhammad or George Washington existed.That is what I was talking about. For example, the issue of whether Jesus died by crucifixion is NOT a teaching… but a factual claim… a historical fact which can be objectively looked at by people who are atheists or religious.
Quote AsanaIn the book of Mormon Joseph Smith is not being spoken to not even he claimed such a thing.
This is completely untrue. It was thru the use of seer stones (Urim and Thummim) which Smith used to interpret the golden plates given to Smith. It was thru the revelation coming from God as Smith tried to interpret the golden plates (using the seer stones) that Smith is being spoken to. Indeed, the original 3 Witnesses and Smith all said that an Angel spoke to them and Smith said it was an angel who told him about the golden plates and the seer stones to use (Moroni). Anyway… when I read the Bible… it is God (the Holy Spirit) who is speaking to me thru it's pages. And when you read the Quran, it is Allah and Muhammad who is speaking to you thru the Quran's pages. And it was God speaking to Smith thru the golden plates.The bottom line is that one of the most important claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints (Mormons) is that God the Father and God the Son both appeared to Joseph Smith in order to restore the true gospel to the world. The Mormon religion RESTS on this claim as well as others (like the validity of the Book of Mormon, restored priesthood, etc.).
Here is what Smith once said:
“When the light rested upon me, I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defined all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other — 'this is my beloved Son. Hear him!'”
So you are incorrect to say that Joseph Smith never claimed to be spoken to. Remember, you're original statement was this:
“In The Quran the words are being recited not like a third person narrative but as Gabriel speaking to Muhammad. Muhammad doesn't actually speak in the Quran but is being spoken to”
But was thru the seer stones… which the angel Moroni told Smith was to use to interpret the golden plates. It was God's message on the golden plates which Joseph was to use to help restore the same Church of Jesus Christ as existed in primitive times—with all of its powers as well as all of its doctrines. God was using Joseph Smith and spoke to him verbally (as seen above) as well as in written form thru the Golden Plates.
The bottom line is that both Muhammed and Joseph Smith were reportedly inspired to start their movements by angelic visits: the Archangel Jibreel (Gabriel) in the case of Muhammed, and the Angel Moroni for Joseph Smith. In each event, the angel in question helped to prepare the prophet to receive a series of revelations from God.
Quote Asana
The book of Mormon is supposed to be a book left for prosterity and my point was in saying it does not edify is to say that there is no obvious connection to the revelatory style of the Torah or Gospel it could very well be a true book written by a true prophet named Moroni but it doesn't reveal anything new in and of itself.
It doesn't reveal anything new in and of itself? How can you say such a thing? There are many things taught in the Mormon which is not taught in the Quran or the Bible. So how can you say that the Book of Mormon (BOM from now on) doesn't reveal anything new in and of itself?One of the most important “new” things it taught is its doctrine of Eternal Progression which asserts that God was once a man, and that humans may become gods themselves. All of this is emphatically rejected by Islam, which views these teachings as polytheistic, and contrary to the doctrines of the Qur'an and Islam's prophet, Muhammad.
Maybe it wasn't revealed to Muhammad that he could become a God himself because Muhammad was not the last Prophet from God… but maybe there are more Prophets coming from God after Muhammad like the Mormons believe about Smith and their succession of Prophets from Smith. And so mabye Smith… as a later Prophet coming after Muhammad… is actually giving us a new revelation about man and about Muhammad.
Now please understand me… I'm not saying this is the case… but only that you can't argue against the Mormon because they are only doing what you are doing… which is to simply ASSERT claims without proof that their leader was a Prophet from God. Islam says Muhammad is the last Prophet… but the Mormons say that Smith was a Prophet after Muhammad and still more Prophets are being revealed thru the Mormon Church leadership. This is why I said we can take your claims and statements… the ones posted on Aug. 15 2010 at 06:35 of this forum… and simply interchange them with Mormon statements and claims. Because you and the Mormons are doing nothing more than make unfounded claims and assertions about what is true without giving us any method by which we can test your claims and assertions about your teachings and about who is the last Prophet if there is a last Prophet. You say there is a last Prophet… the Mormons say there is not. The Mormons say that Thomas S. Monson is the current Prophet and he is one in a long line which came after Muhammad.
And while we are on the subject of whether the BOM reveals anything new in and of itself… here are a few more fundamental teachings from Mormonism which is not taught by Islam: (all this information can be found on Wikipedia)
1)… Islam believes that God is essentially and uniquely one, while Mormons accept the Christian division of the Godhead into Father, Son and Holy Ghost, though rejecting the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
2)… Mormonism believes that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. Islam emphatically rejects these notions.
3)… Islam insists that only God is eternal; everything else was created by him ex nihilo. Mormonism denies this, insisting that matter and intelligence are equally eternal, and that God only “organized” them, rather than creating them out of nothing.
4)… Mormonism believes that God the Father spiritually begat every human being who has ever lived, prior to their existence on earth, and that we all lived in a “pre-existence” with him prior to being born. Islam rejects these ideas.
5)… Mormonism believes that Satan was a “spirit son” of God named Lucifer, whose plan for enforced obedience to G
od's law was rejected, leading him to rebel. Islam rejects this, stating that Iblis, a jinn, refused to prostrate himself before Adam upon Allah's command, causing Allah to expel him from his presence, after which he became Satan.6)… Islam believes that the Angels are beings created by Allah from light, who lack free will and serve him unhesitatingly. Mormonism sees Angels as being either resurected beings or the spirits of humans yet to be born..
7)… Islam proclaims that its prophet Muhammad was the “seal of the prophets”, and thus, that no further prophets would come after him. Mormonism, while believing that Muhammad was a great man, does not consider him a prophet; it does believe Joseph Smith and his successors (the latest of whom is Thomas S. Monson) to be prophets, which Islam rejects.
8)… Islam bans certain kinds of meat, while Mormonism does not.
9)…Mormonism believes in the possibility of continuing revelation, whereas Islam considers the Qur'an to be God's final message to humankind.
I could go on and on… but these are just a few fundamental differences between Mormonism and Islam. Which plainly shows that it is incorrect that the BOM doesn't reveal anything new in and of itself. The theological teachings in the Book of Mormon is so “out-there” in left field, that it makes much of the material completely orginal and new and not found in Islam.
Quote AsanaThe mormons have practices that are not recorded in the book of Mormon so the book itself is benign but not helpful whether it be true or false.
And my point is that the Quran is the same way. Muhammad wrote things which can't be proven to be true or false. And one of the examples which we've been discussing… is Muhammad's claim that Jesus was not crucified and that Jesus did not die. I've given you every opportunity to show us that Muhammad's claim about Jesus is true. I have yet to see anything from you.And so my point in switching mormonism with Islam was to show that both religions make claims that cannot be proven to be true. Both were written by one man and none of the material can be tested for truth. Jospeh Smith did exactly the same thing that Muhammad did… and that was take bits and pieces from the Bible… put a twist and a spin on it… and came up with something new… based on angelic visits.
Indeed, Wikipedia says that Joseph Smith, Jr., the founding prophet of Mormonism, was referred to as “the modern Mahomet” by the New York Herald, shortly after his murder in June of 1844. This epithet repeated a comparison that had been made from Smith's earliest career, and it was not intended at the time to be complimentary.
Anyway… I personally do not see any difference between the Quran and the Book of Mormon in terms of how it was put together… and why it was put together.. and in terms of the similiarities between the leaders of each religion… and in many of it's claims for itself… and in terms of seemingly making stuff up out of whole cloth. I'm not saying Islam is made up out of whole cloth, but you've been given every opportunity to show us why Muhammad didn't make all this stuff up in the Quran.. and I personally have not seen you put forth any logical defense for your assertions and claims.
Quote Asana
The Quran however is consequential because it is revelatory in the book itself it does not denounce any former writings but instead it clarifies incident after incident of the former writings. It actually addresses the “trinity” which you seem to hold dear but wasn't an actual accepted belief for hundreds of years after Christ, it addresses Christ being called “God” which was never part of the original gospel.
But can't you see that you're just making assertions and claims? This is exactly what Joseph Smith did with the Book of Mormon. As I keep saying, anyone can make claims and assertions. The important question is how do you know that the Quran is correct in it's message? And how do you know the teachings in the Quran are revelatory and yet the Mormon teachings are not revelatory? The BOM also addreses the “trinity” and yet adds more things… like the teaching that God (Allah) is made of flesh and bone and was once a man like Muhamad and you and I. So maybe Mormonism is a progression after the Quran and revelatory in nature and is doing what Allah wants done. How do you know otherwise when both Smith and Muhammad appear to be making all this “revelatory” and “progressive” stuff up?Again… I'm NOT saying that the Quran is made up stuff. I'm NOT making any value judgment about the teachings of Islam or Mormonism. I can't stress that enough. What I'm trying to do is ask questions about your beliefs… and I'm trying to get an answer from you which would explain why I should believe Muhammad and the Quran.
It appears to me that you have yet to present a logical defense… a positive case for your beliefs which we can look at and judge and evaulate and analyze and ponder on and debate, etc. All that you seem to be doing is just simply assert many things. And any 5 year old can do that.
Quote The Quran is a clarification of all that has come before it was sent down, it is God setting things straight with HIS creation.
How do you know this? Isn't this just another mere assertion made by you and Muhammad? How do you know that Mormonism isn't a clarification of all that has come before it was sent down (like the Quran), and that Mormonism is not God seeting things straight with HIS creation?This goes back to why I believe we can interchange Islam with Mormonism because you both are seemingly doing nothing more than just make assertions and claims.
Quote Francis
We as Christians believe that we can support and demonstrate thru archeaology and historical facts and logic and reason and scienceAsana
This statement is so far off that I won't even debate it, if what you were saying was true there would not be over 39,000 denominations just to say “we as Christians believe” is enough to make me say “stop!” there is hardly more than 2 or 3 Christians in this entire forum that can agree on more than a few points. Some believe Jesus is God and there is no trinity some believe that Jesus is God and there is a trinity and on and on Jesus was made, Jesus is eternal…. there is no concensus only what you subjectively create.
The problem here is that you didn't finish my sentence above… and so you are trapping yourself by making a strawman statement… i.e. taking what I wrote out of context by not finishing the sentence I originally wrote. I won't let you do this to me. So here again is what I actually wrote:“We as Christians believe that we can support and demonstrate thru archeaology and historical facts and logic and reason and science… and by using the historical methods which is applied to all written documents… by applying critical methods of scholarship… thru DEDUCTION AND INDUCTION… thru the application of “in
ference to the best conclusion” as used in logic… we believe that thru these methods we can rationally demonstrate that the proposition that Jesus is the Messiah… is more likely true than not… and that Jesus was divine and human.”No where in my above statement was I talking about all the different theological teachings of Christianity. And I certainly never was speaking of the trinity. And never was I saying that there would be a unaminous consensus on everything taught in Christianity. I never even said that there would be a consensus on more than just a few points. So everything you just wrote in response to my statement shows further that is very clear and very plain that you do not carefully read what is written. You're not careful in how you respond. It appears to me that you speak with your heart and emotions, and not your mind and reason.
The fact is, just saying you trust in Jesus and what he taught… that you live your life after the teachings of Jesus… does not mean you are a Christian. I don't know if you know this or not, but there is a group of atheists who call themselves “Christian atheists”. Now, would an atheist be considered a Christian as we understand the term? NO !!!! These are people who are atheists… who deny that Jesus was the Messiah… who deny that Jesus was divine… who deny that Jesus was resurrected… who deny that God/Allah/Yahweh exists… and yet the call themselves Christian. Why? Because they like some of this teachings about love, etc. So they live by those parts that they like about Jesus… and call themselves Christian. Does that mean they are? NO!!!!! Not in terms of how most people understand the term “Christian”.
So… you will always get many people who will call themselves followers of Jesus… who will call themselves followers of Allah… who will call themselves followers of Muhammad… who will call themselves followers of Joseph Smith… who will call themselves followers of Mormonism… and YET who do not believe in the same things as the main teachings of those religions and people… and so they break off and form their own denominations.
This happens in Christianity and Islam and Morminism and Hinduism and Buddishm. ALL of these religions have offshoots, breakaways, differnt denominations, different sects, and different factions within them.
According to Wikipedia… over the period of time after the death of the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, there have arisen distinctions by means of schools of thought, traditions, and related faiths. Such as Sunni, Shiah, Khawarij, Sufi, Salafi, Islamism, Liberals, Quraniyoon, Ahmadiyya, Mahdavism, Nation of Islam, Moorish Science, Submitters, Druze, Ahl-e Haqq, Bábism, Bahá'í Faith, Sikhism, Five Percenters,Nuwaubu, Mouride.
All these differences, and yet the central text of Islam, the Qur'an ordains that Muslims are not to be divided into divisions or sections and rather be united under a common goal of faith in one God alone – Allah[Qur'an 3:103], failure to do which has also been deemed a sin by God and thus forbidden.
Just like Christianity!!!!
The same with Mormonism. There are the Community of Christ… The Church of Christ (Temple Lot)… The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)… The Church of Christ with the Elijah Message… the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite), and a host of smaller sects. These churches all reject various teachings of the mainline LDS Church, with specific differences varying from denomination to denomination.
So you get this lack of unaminous consensus among all religions.. even in Islam. But the point is that in each of the these religions… there is a mainstream thought… a mainstream belief… a mainstream church. And it is the mainstream Christianity of which I was speaking of when I wrote the above statement of mine.
When I wrote: “We as Christians believe…” I was speaking of mainstream Christianity. Just like when I speak with you, I am always assuming that you are speaking on behalf of mainstream Islam, and not for one of the many sects and offshoots in Islam which Wikipedia listed.
And so I stand by what I said… “We as Christians believe that we can support and demonstrate thru archeaology and historical facts and logic and reason and science… thru DEDUCTION AND INDUCTION… thru the application of “inference to the best conclusion” as used in logic… we believe that thru these methods we can rationally demonstrate that the proposition that Jesus is the Messiah… is more likely true than not… and that Jesus was divine and human.”
If you want to disagree, that is fine. But you have yet to show why Muhammad was correct when he said that Jesus was never crucified and that Jesus never died.
which seques into my next concern which you have yet to address. This is what I wrote previously… and it is still a valid concern:
“Whether or not you believe Jesus was the Messiah is not the point at all. Not at all. The only point I'm making here is that I don't see you offering ANY evidence for your statements… or for what you believe. All I've seen you do… and I admit I have not read everything you've written (you've written almost 6,000 posts)… but all I see you doing is just assert your beliefs without any attempt towards giving us a positive logical defense for your faith. Whether or not Christianity is true… at least Christians do present a positive logical defense for their beliefs which can be analyzed and debated and looked at by both sides in an objective manner in a debate.”
Quote I also believe you are not only a good person but I will go so far as to say you are a remarkable person because it is clearly obvious that you are a true lover of God and to me and the Quran that is enough Thank you. Likewise I also believe that you are a remarkable person and it is clear to everyone in here that you truly love Allah and that you highly respect Muhammad and the Quran.
Unfortunately, in the end, it doesn't matter what I or you think about ourselves. In my worldview… what matters is what Jesus thinks. And this is why the discussion we are having in the other thread is so important… because it goes to the heart of who this Jesus was. And did Jesus die by crucifixion.
Respectfully
FrancisIt doesn't even matter what Jesus thinks because his doctrine is not his own according to him:
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:15-17So Jesus would agree with me whether he was crucified or not because either way it is not his doctrine
Hello Asana…
Just a quick note to let you know that I will be responding to your brief post above as soon as possible. At the moment, I'm working on a different question of yours from another thread and it's requiring a lot of research, etc.
Respectfully
FrancisQuote (francis @ Aug. 24 2010,04:24) Hello Asana… Just a quick note to let you know that I will be responding to your brief post above as soon as possible. At the moment, I'm working on a different question of yours from another thread and it's requiring a lot of research, etc.
Respectfully
Francis
Hi Francis,Facts do not concern BD, if they did: he would turn to
Our YHVH=117 and be saved. (John 3:17 / John 17:3)He doesn't believe The Bible at all! He only quotes The Bible
in a feeble attempt as to indemnify the 'book of fraud',
called 'quran book'. (Gal.1:6-9 / 2Cor.11:13-15)“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHello Ed J….
Personally, I don't approach these discussions with the expectations that I have the ability to change anyone's mind. As I understand it, it is the Holy Spirit's “job” to try and change hearts, not mine. Part of my responsibility can be found in 1Peter 3:15.
And so that is what I attempt to do. As long as I can do that much, I personally believe that the rest is up to God. Ultimately, all souls lay in God's hands, not mine.
But there is another good reason for engaging non-believers other than the reason found in 1Peter 3:15… and that is the fact that “iron sharpens iron”. I have found that it is thru my interaction with non-believers… because they ask really tough questions about my beliefs… I become stronger and stronger… because I'm being forced to really understand my faith and what it is based on.
Indeed, this is not just my viewpoint either. In another forum, I saw some atheists remarking to other atheists that they shouldn't debate Christians because they were fearful that it was making Christians stronger in their faith. And these atheists were using the “iron sharpens iron” analogy in support of their reasons for not wanting to debate Christians.
My soul… and your soul… and Asana's soul is in God's hands. I am just trying to be obedient and do what I feel Christ is asking me to do. And in the process, I can see that my faith gets stronger and stronger the more I interact with individuals who ask tough questions about what I believe.
I also want to treat other people the way I want to be treated… and so I will always try and give another individual the benefit of doubt because I want to be treated in a like manner. So whether or not Asana is concerned with facts… I want to believe that it does concern him… because I want him to believe that I am concerned with facts.
Anyway… I don't know if I make any sense… but I appreciate your input and helpful suggestions and I look forward to reading your posts.
Respectfully
FrancisQuote (francis @ Aug. 24 2010,05:49) Hello Ed J…. Personally, I don't approach these discussions with the expectations that I have the ability to change anyone's mind. As I understand it, it is the Holy Spirit's “job” to try and change hearts, not mine. Part of my responsibility can be found in 1Peter 3:15.
Respectfully
Francis
Hi Francis,Quote My soul… and your soul… and Asana's soul is in God's hands.
Asana Bodhitharta's soul is our hands as well! to warn him to turn from wickedness! (Ezekiel 33:9-10)
Without the remission of BD's sins; he will certainly pine away in them! (Leviticus 17:11 / Acts 20:28)1Cor.14:24-25 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not,
or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the
secrets of his(BD's) heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will
worship [Our YHVH=117], and report that God is in you of a truth. (Isa.45:14-16)Isa is (יהשוע) Jesus name in the Arabic tongue; but BD doesn't speak Arabic; only English.
Muslims consider it sacrilege to read the quran in any other language other than Arabic.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Francis,
I spent MANY hours discoursing with our wayward Brother, BD.
He knows I will even defend his right to promote that garbage.If interested: you can read the thrust of our discourse beginning
at the Last Post Located Here, and colminating on Page 38 there!This thread was a “free for all” thread! One not relegated to the
skeptics section (per say) as it's location is at the top of this Forum!
Stuart, BD, me, Karmarie and others had a blast talking about everything!
That's where I suggest you check out our discourse; you will learn much about us!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Francis, God bless you in your time spent with bod,
I used to be karmarie, but changed my username [got bored or something]
Good posts.
You have to watch Ed, he gets a bit….brash….I think is the word, ha, I'm sorry Ed.
Quote (francis @ Aug. 24 2010,04:24) Hello Asana… Just a quick note to let you know that I will be responding to your brief post above as soon as possible. At the moment, I'm working on a different question of yours from another thread and it's requiring a lot of research, etc.
Respectfully
Francis
Francis,God Bless You and Guide you in your research and thank you for taking the time to answer thoughtfully.
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