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Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,23:08) Quote Why should a woman not be allowed to dress in a provocative manner? What is your problem with that? Can you not be bothered to control yourself? Do you really believe the nonsense written in the koran about what you may do to women? what of the children stuart?
Indeed, what of the children? I should think that making decisions about whether their dress is going to put them in danger from men who cannot control themselves is necessary in the West, where it is possible to choose ones mode of dress, that would be the very least of the problem for a muslim girl who must just wear a bag over her body. No matter how amazingly intricately patterned and stunning that bag might be as it is in some cultures, islam says it must be a big bag that hides the morphology that makes you a woman, while men are under no such obligation, excepting small things like covering elbows and the like.Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,05:53) So democracy such as the democracy that allowed Brutal slavery(America had one of the most brutal forms of slavery in which 100's of millions lost their lives) in America for almost 400 years is your democratic ideal of morality?
Another dodge. You did not ask whether democracy always produces ethical results that are acceptable to you, it was about what the source of rights is!If you want to consider what ethics democracy produces, then you have to analyse what influences people are under and what range of choices can be considered at one time as they discuss issues in public fora and write to their politicians and cast their votes.
The issue of slavery is not straightforward, and the zeitgeist of ethics shifts over the ages as people develop philosophies of ethics that become popular causes, etc.
One of the influences is preachers spinning their fantasy stories of what might please their god from a pulpit or at Friday prayers.
When you have muslim preachers inciting people to hatred of Jews, then your zeitgeist is going to take a different course from what happens in a civilised, rational situation.
In christianity there were people using the bible to support their anti-slavery views as well as people using it to support their pro-slavery views. So you would think that would even up, but of course it does not because the pro-slavery christians have a book that tells them they are right to keep slaves, and that is an ultimate directive from their god that cannot be wrong.
I guess islam has the model of mohammad capturing girls as slaves and having his way with them.
Without religious dogmas and traditions you have a greater chance of succeeding in pointing out the absurdities of the prejudices that allow people to accept slavery.
The situation is clearer with homosexual law reform. In NZ laws against what gay people do in the privacy of their own homes was only abolished in 1986. You can imagine which groups protested the change, can't you. That is their democratic right, but those reforms only became possible with ever-diminishing rates of religious adherence.
If NZ was a christian theocracy, and especially if it was anything like the dictatorship of the vatican, I think we would still have a government interested in peeking in people's bedrooms and possibly entertaining the concept of slavery.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,06:13) But there were other reasons for men having more than one wife and it is not sexist to take a wife because of in some cases a lack of men. If there is a situation where there are many women for each one man should all the excess women be deprived of a husband, not bear children and have no companionship?
Wars cause the number of women to exceed the number of men.
What becomes of the woman? In a monogamous society, they are left as widows, with nobody to care for them, many resort to prostitution or have affairs with married men children born without knowing a father and without a fathers support.
Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,22:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,13:49) I see this all as cultural, the whole world doesnt have to be like America, before prophet Mohammad men married many wives, often up to eleven, the Quran limited it to four.
if men and women were equal why could not a women have four husbands?
Because men fight too much, where woman get on better together
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 25 2010,08:14) Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,22:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,13:49) I see this all as cultural, the whole world doesnt have to be like America, before prophet Mohammad men married many wives, often up to eleven, the Quran limited it to four.
if men and women were equal why could not a women have four husbands?
Because men fight too much, where woman get on better togetherPlus it just doesnt seem right.
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,07:01) Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,23:08) Quote Why should a woman not be allowed to dress in a provocative manner? What is your problem with that? Can you not be bothered to control yourself? Do you really believe the nonsense written in the koran about what you may do to women? what of the children stuart?
Indeed, what of the children? I should think that making decisions about whether their dress is going to put them in danger from men who cannot control themselves is necessary in the West, where it is possible to choose ones mode of dress, that would be the very least of the problem for a muslim girl who must just wear a bag over her body. No matter how amazingly intricately patterned and stunning that bag might be as it is in some cultures, islam says it must be a big bag that hides the morphology that makes you a woman, while men are under no such obligation, excepting small things like covering elbows and the like.Stuart
You are sadly mistaken and shouldn't espouse such nonsense without the scripture to back it up.Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 25 2010,08:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,06:13) But there were other reasons for men having more than one wife and it is not sexist to take a wife because of in some cases a lack of men. If there is a situation where there are many women for each one man should all the excess women be deprived of a husband, not bear children and have no companionship?
Wars cause the number of women to exceed the number of men.
What becomes of the woman? In a monogamous society, they are left as widows, with nobody to care for them, many resort to prostitution or have affairs with married men children born without knowing a father and without a fathers support.
KM,You are bright and able to discern truth. STU is not interested in truth he is interested in trying to undermine religion itself. He is only speaking out so strongly against Islam because it is convenient here to do so. He continues to flee from disparaging remarks about Jews but STU has to believe that Jews are delusional or liars because we all learned about God and salvation from the Jews.
when STU says that people who believe in God are delusional or the people who taught people about God were somehow lying, STU is speaking against the Jews, They wrote the TORAH and they as a nation claim to have witnessed God as a Nation at MT. Sinai but STU says that they lied or that they were delusional.
Everything that STU says about Islam he is saying the same about Christianity and Ultimately Judaism.
You don't have Christianity or Islam without Judaism so STU blames Jews for polygamy, sexism, discrimination against homosexuals…etc.
Now if anyone here is willing to believe STU's views then they themselves does not believe in God's system, they believe in the way of the atheist, people who are lovers of themselves who ignore the commands of God.
some of you actually believe that STU is speaking against Islam and in that ignorance what will you say after agreeing with him about Islam when he then turns and makes the exact same thread against Christianity? Suddenly you will be exposed as hypocrites.
Imagine speaking against Polygamy and then STU suddenly makes up a thread talking about Solomon, David, Abraham, Moses…etc. You would have already rejected the prophets of God.
Watch what you stand against when the person standing with you is a non-believer, they have no interest in your soul, they only wish that you turn away from truth afetr you received it(What a wicked path!)
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,12:03) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,07:01) Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,23:08) Quote Why should a woman not be allowed to dress in a provocative manner? What is your problem with that? Can you not be bothered to control yourself? Do you really believe the nonsense written in the koran about what you may do to women? what of the children stuart?
Indeed, what of the children? I should think that making decisions about whether their dress is going to put them in danger from men who cannot control themselves is necessary in the West, where it is possible to choose ones mode of dress, that would be the very least of the problem for a muslim girl who must just wear a bag over her body. No matter how amazingly intricately patterned and stunning that bag might be as it is in some cultures, islam says it must be a big bag that hides the morphology that makes you a woman, while men are under no such obligation, excepting small things like covering elbows and the like.Stuart
You are sadly mistaken and shouldn't espouse such nonsense without the scripture to back it up.
Which bit was 'nonsense'?Stuart
BD
Quote STU is not interested in truth he is interested in trying to undermine religion itself.
The truth itself is usually enough to undermine religion.Quote He is only speaking out so strongly against Islam because it is convenient here to do so.
You are right: I would think twice before reading out loud my statements in public places in Islamabad or Tehran or Kabul or Baghdad, because this ‘religion of peace’ has so many incited, radicalised, ready-to-jihad fanatics over which it has lost control, that it would be foolhardy to do so. I can write freely here because my country protects my rights to express my views without fear of intimidation or threat of violence. On the other hand, my death in those countries which hold the ‘religion of peace’ as their central governing principle would be smiled on.Quote He continues to flee from disparaging remarks about Jews but STU has to believe that Jews are delusional or liars because we all learned about God and salvation from the Jews.
Jews are an ethnic group, Judaism is the religion commonly followed by them. It would be ignorant to make the same generalisations about them as I do about muslims, because all muslims have in common is a belief system, and then it is only by name that they hold it in common: in their deeds it covers everything from pathetic submissive piety to blowing people up in market squares. Jews on the other hand are not all followers of the absurdities of Judaism.Quote when STU says that people who believe in God are delusional or the people who taught people about God were somehow lying, STU is speaking against the Jews, They wrote the TORAH and they as a nation claim to have witnessed God as a Nation at MT. Sinai but STU says that they lied or that they were delusional. Everything that STU says about Islam he is saying the same about Christianity and Ultimately Judaism. You don't have Christianity or Islam without Judaism so STU blames Jews for polygamy, sexism, discrimination against homosexuals…etc.
How would you like a libel summons?Quote Now if anyone here is willing to believe STU's views then they themselves does not believe in God's system, they believe in the way of the atheist, people who are lovers of themselves who ignore the commands of God.
A strawman that commits the additional fallacy of begging the question.There is no such thing as ‘god’s commands’. For obvious reasons.
Quote some of you actually believe that STU is speaking against Islam and in that ignorance what will you say after agreeing with him about Islam when he then turns and makes the exact same thread against Christianity? Suddenly you will be exposed as hypocrites.
Yeah, well the christians here have been through a lot of that already with me and some others. Of course they have come to realise now, actually as I have, just how brutal, sexist and unjust your belief system is by modern standards. What does the brutality of islam have to do with christianity? No matter how nasty christianity and Judaism may or may not be, islam as it is applied throughout the world is still anti-human nonsense that deserves no place in civilisation.Quote Imagine speaking against Polygamy and then STU suddenly makes up a thread talking about Solomon, David, Abraham, Moses…etc. You would have already rejected the prophets of God.
I just talked about the origins of your belief system that started with monotheists assimilating polytheists through henotheism. I can’t help it if you choose to remain willfully ignorant about the polytheistic origins of what you believe. That is what happened. And, by the way, the only one of your list I mentioned was Moses. Your antisemitism is showing.Quote Watch what you stand against when the person standing with you is a non-believer, they have no interest in your soul, they only wish that you turn away from truth afetr you received it(What a wicked path!)
…and the boogieman might get you too.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,13:16) BD Quote STU is not interested in truth he is interested in trying to undermine religion itself.
The truth itself is usually enough to undermine religion.Quote He is only speaking out so strongly against Islam because it is convenient here to do so.
You are right: I would think twice before reading out loud my statements in public places in Islamabad or Tehran or Kabul or Baghdad, because this ‘religion of peace’ has so many incited, radicalised, ready-to-jihad fanatics over which it has lost control, that it would be foolhardy to do so. I can write freely here because my country protects my rights to express my views without fear of intimidation or threat of violence. On the other hand, my death in those countries which hold the ‘religion of peace’ as their central governing principle would be smiled on.Quote He continues to flee from disparaging remarks about Jews but STU has to believe that Jews are delusional or liars because we all learned about God and salvation from the Jews.
Jews are an ethnic group, Judaism is the religion commonly followed by them. It would be ignorant to make the same generalisations about them as I do about muslims, because all muslims have in common is a belief system, and then it is only by name that they hold it in common: in their deeds it covers everything from pathetic submissive piety to blowing people up in market squares. Jews on the other hand are not all followers of the absurdities of Judaism.Quote when STU says that people who believe in God are delusional or the people who taught people about God were somehow lying, STU is speaking against the Jews, They wrote the TORAH and they as a nation claim to have witnessed God as a Nation at MT. Sinai but STU says that they lied or that they were delusional. Everything that STU says about Islam he is saying the same about Christianity and Ultimately Judaism. You don't have Christianity or Islam without Judaism so STU blames Jews for polygamy, sexism, discrimination against homosexuals…etc.
How would you like a libel summons?Quote Now if anyone here is willing to believe STU's views then they themselves does not believe in God's system, they believe in the way of the atheist, people who are lovers of themselves who ignore the commands of God.
A strawman that commits the additional fallacy of begging the question.There is no such thing as ‘god’s commands’. For obvious reasons.
Quote some of you actually believe that STU is speaking against Islam and in that ignorance what will you say after agreeing with him about Islam when he then turns and makes the exact same thread against Christianity? Suddenly you will be exposed as hypocrites.
Yeah, well the christians here have been through a lot of that already with me and some others. Of course they have come to realise now, actually as I have, just how brutal, sexist and unjust your belief system is by modern standards. What does the brutality of islam have to do with christianity? No matter how nasty christianity and Judaism may or may not be, islam as it is applied throughout the world is still anti-human nonsense that deserves no place in civilisation.Quote Imagine speaking against Polygamy and then STU suddenly makes up a thread talking about Solomon, David, Abraham, Moses…etc. You would have already rejected the prophets of God.
I just talked about the origins of your belief system that started with monotheists assimilating polytheists through henotheism. I can’t help it if you choose to remain willfully ignorant about the polytheistic origins of what you believe. That is what happened. And, by the way, the only one of your list I mentioned was Moses. Your antisemitism is showing.Quote Watch what you stand against when the person standing with you is a non-believer, they have no interest in your soul, they only wish that you turn away from truth afetr you received it(What a wicked path!)
…and the boogieman might get you too.Stuart
So what you believe is that ALL ORTHODOX JEWS are either liars or delusional?Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 25 2010,08:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,06:13) But there were other reasons for men having more than one wife and it is not sexist to take a wife because of in some cases a lack of men. If there is a situation where there are many women for each one man should all the excess women be deprived of a husband, not bear children and have no companionship?
Wars cause the number of women to exceed the number of men.
What becomes of the woman? In a monogamous society, they are left as widows, with nobody to care for them, many resort to prostitution or have affairs with married men children born without knowing a father and without a fathers support.
strange for you to say this, due to the enlistment of women in the armed services.by scriptures it is our job to care for such widows and children that are fatherless.
is it not?
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 25 2010,08:14) Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,22:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,13:49) I see this all as cultural, the whole world doesnt have to be like America, before prophet Mohammad men married many wives, often up to eleven, the Quran limited it to four.
if men and women were equal why could not a women have four husbands?
Because men fight too much, where woman get on better together
honestly, do you not think the women to fight to see who would be the favorite of her husband.you could almost caterogize this a 'only the strongest survives'.
nonsense, i would not share my husband with another women, he would be mine and mine alone, call me selfish, would have it no other way.
Quote So what you believe is that ALL ORTHODOX JEWS are either liars or delusional? Anyone who has a god-belief is delusional. You, and any christian who actually really believes in a god, and you too.
Stuart
Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 25 2010,14:12) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 25 2010,08:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,06:13) But there were other reasons for men having more than one wife and it is not sexist to take a wife because of in some cases a lack of men. If there is a situation where there are many women for each one man should all the excess women be deprived of a husband, not bear children and have no companionship?
Wars cause the number of women to exceed the number of men.
What becomes of the woman? In a monogamous society, they are left as widows, with nobody to care for them, many resort to prostitution or have affairs with married men children born without knowing a father and without a fathers support.
strange for you to say this, due to the enlistment of women in the armed services.by scriptures it is our job to care for such widows and children that are fatherless.
is it not?
Which scriptures?We are not talking about widows or orphans but since you mention it:
And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
Luke 21:1-3Who was taking care of her?
1 Timothy 5:8-10 (Contemporary English Version)
8People who don't take care of their relatives, and especially their own families, have given up their faith. They are worse than someone who doesn't have faith in the Lord.9 For a widow to be put on the list of widows, she must be at least sixty years old, and she must have been faithful in marriage. 10She must also be well-known for doing all sorts of good things, such as raising children, giving food to strangers, welcoming God's people into her home, helping people in need, and always making herself useful.
What about a young widow?
Are you saying that a young widow incapable of being put on the list of widows that receive help should not be allowed to be married to a man willing to love her and take care of her?
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,14:22) Quote So what you believe is that ALL ORTHODOX JEWS are either liars or delusional? Anyone who has a god-belief is delusional. You, and any christian who actually really believes in a god, and you too.
Stuart
stuart,prove to me with the love in your heart that there is not a creator of sound light and vibration.
can you do it with love stuart, or can you only do it with facts.
you are no better then the ones you call delusion if you cannot, then the message you bring is not to help or heal it is only to destroy and hurt.
Quote What about a young widow? Are you saying that a young widow incapable of being put on the list of widows that receive help should not be allowed to be married to a man willing to love her and take care of her?
if she chooses to marry the man, then it is her choice. if the man has many wives and she is well aware of this and still agrees this is her choice. notice the words 'her choice'.
Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 25 2010,14:56) Quote What about a young widow? Are you saying that a young widow incapable of being put on the list of widows that receive help should not be allowed to be married to a man willing to love her and take care of her?
if she chooses to marry the man, then it is her choice. if the man has many wives and she is well aware of this and still agrees this is her choice. notice the words 'her choice'.
Of course it is her choice the Quran would agree with you.Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,14:22) Quote So what you believe is that ALL ORTHODOX JEWS are either liars or delusional? Anyone who has a god-belief is delusional. You, and any christian who actually really believes in a god, and you too.
Stuart
So it is your belief that there was a continuous stream of delusional Jews that reported delusions to mankind?In the case of Jesus you actually believe he never existed, right? So at least in that case you believe that the Jews actually lied, correct?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,15:17) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,14:22) Quote So what you believe is that ALL ORTHODOX JEWS are either liars or delusional? Anyone who has a god-belief is delusional. You, and any christian who actually really believes in a god, and you too.
Stuart
So it is your belief that there was a continuous stream of delusional Jews that reported delusions to mankind?In the case of Jesus you actually believe he never existed, right? So at least in that case you believe that the Jews actually lied, correct?
I don't think stream is the collective noun for Jews, is it?No, I think it is probably 60% – 40% in favour of the existence of Jesus. That is a pair of figures that I made up myself, but it is based on what I have learned about the historicity of Jesus, taking into account the circumstantial evidence.
What Jews lied about what?
Your antisemitism is making up strawmen now.
Stuart
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