The koran on women

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,08:33)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,05:48)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 23 2010,20:59)

Maybe Iran is better?

Women and the Iranian Revolution

Women participated heavily in the Iranian Revolution of 1979 that toppled the shah. Notwithstanding this, the Islamic republic of Ayatollah Khomeini severely curtailed rights that women had become accustomed to under the shah. Within months of the founding of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the 1967 Family Protection Law was repealed; female government workers were forced to observe Islamic dress code; women were barred from becoming judges; beaches and sports were sex-segregated; the legal age of marriage for girls was reduced to 13; and married women were barred from attending regular schools. Almost immediately women protested these policies. The Islamic revolution is ideologically committed to inequality for women in inheritance and other areas of the the civil code; and especially committed to segregation of the sexes. Many places, from “schoolrooms to ski slopes to public buses”, are strictly segregated. Females caught by revolutionary officials in a mixed-sex situation can be subject to virginity tests.

Nope. Looks like the introduction of an islamic theocracy (where they take the koran very seriously) took gender equality in that country back to the Dark Ages too.

Hijab

“Bad hijab” ― exposure of any part of the body other than hands and face — is subject to punishment of up to 70 lashes or 60 days imprisonment.[13][14] In April 2007, the Tehran police, (which is under Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei's supervision), began the most fierce crackdown on what's known as “bad hijab” in more than a decade. In the capital Tehran thousands of Iranian women were cautioned over their poor Islamic dress and several hundred arrested

I have dined with Iranian academics living in London. They hang their heads in shame at what the introduction of sharia law has done to their country.

Stuart

They could not be taking the Quran seriously at all because that type of dress is not recommended in the Quran.

But just to demonstrate truth to you where is it in the Bible that Nuns should dress the way they do? Look in Jewish culture and see how orthodox Jewish women dress as I told you before these are cultural behaviours not prescribed from any Holy Books.

But if any Christian should say women should not have to dress like that then they should protest against Christian Nuns and orthodox Christian women of the middle east.

But the jilbab is compulsory, isn't it. Not much difference there in Western terms. Perhaps just the demeaning way it makes women look as if they are peering out from inside a black letterbox.

Sura 33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed…

And we know that 'abroad' means anywhere that they will be seen in public.

As I mentioned above, there is no point protesting for a woman's right to dress how she wants AND to protest against a nun's garb. Because she is dressing how she wants!

Same with Jewish women, and it is not until we get to islam that we have compulsion, on pain of punishment, the severity of which relates to how seriously the country takes sharia law.

Stuart

This verse is talking about modest dress and it is to protect the women from men.

You don't understand because you don't get it.

It's the atheism disease again. Tell me should a young lady be concerned about how well shaped her buttocks is in jeans before she goes outside in public. Do you think someone should be showing nudity in public or do you think everyone should decide individually how much should be covered in Public?

Should everyone be allowed to walk around without clothes?

January 24, 2010 at 2:49 am#172848

Participant

Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,11:35)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,06:06)

Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,01:46)

stuart,

to call this sexism to say the least is an understatement. slavery comes to mind.

Do not mix Islam with cultural behaviours if you do you will have to include the bahaviours of Christians as acceptable in the Bible. Women in america have only recently been given the right to Vote.

The Bible doesn't say a woman should not vote but Christian men prevented them for most of American history. Do not mix Christianity with cultural behaviours

bd, your culture and religion treat women as noted below.

slave (slv)
n.
1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.

if one chooses to become a indentured servant that is another matter, your culture gives no choice.

you say that i am the weaker one, physically yes, spiritually i am the stronger vessel than you.

how can you a supposed god fearing man and agree to such treatment of women.

i know my role in life as a women, you apparently have not find yours in being a man.

your culture of men, has the spirit of egypt attached to them.

Aren't you a bound servant to God? Doesn't God OWN you?

Also, what treatment are you referring to? BTW, My culture is the American culture and my wife dresses moderately.

She keeps all her private parts covered like I am sure you do. The Quran says to keep the private parts covered.

30 Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.
31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #31)

Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage,- there is no blame on them if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty: but it is best for them to be modest: and Allah is One Who sees and knows all things.
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #60)

January 24, 2010 at 2:53 am#172851

Wikipedia on Women's rights in Saudi Arabia

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,08:35)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,05:43)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 23 2010,20:47)

In case anyone was thinking that this Saudi sexism is not islamic sexism, note the job title of this commentator:

“I believe in equal right for everyone according to their circumstances….Women do have rights, but they are based on our view of their obligations in life.” –Dr. Saleh al-Sheikh, the minister for Islamic affairs in Saudi Arabia

Rights do not depend on circumstance. That is what the word 'rights' means.

Stuart

“Rights” do depend on circumstances STU do people in prisons have the same rights as those who are not?

Do not land owners have different rights than renters?

Do not school teachers have rights different than strangers of your children?

Doesn't Police and military have rights that criminals and private citizens do not have?

No, you have human rights regardless of your state of incarceration or otherwise, and that is what we are discussing, human rights.

Stuart

Are you really that ignorant of the rights of a prisoner, what do you think are Human rights STU?

BTW, How does one have HUMAN rights in your Atheistic Natural selection system? What is right to an Amoral Atheist?

Don't Humans have the right to do whatever the will do? Who is their authority, who decides?

January 24, 2010 at 3:03 am#172852

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,08:38)

Quote (princess of the king @ Jan. 24 2010,01:46)

stuart,

to call this sexism to say the least is an understatement. slavery comes to mind.

Indeed, and the koran gives so much control to men that wives do not even have the room to withdraw conjugal 'rights' in protest, a common means of female solidarity!

Stuart

The Quran does not give control to men at all but you haven't even read the Quran.

For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). This is a duty on the righteous.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #241)

And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #4)

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #19)

For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah.s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #35)

O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
( سورة الحجرات , Al-Hujraat, Chapter #49, Verse #11)

Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable. And if ye find yourselves in difficulties, let another woman suckle (the child) on the (father's) behalf.
( سورة الطلاق , At-Talaq, Chapter #65, Verse #6)

Seems like all the rules of Alimony and Child support come from Islam

January 24, 2010 at 3:29 am#172856

Participant

ok,

I see this all as cultural, the whole world doesnt have to be like America, before prophet Mohammad men married many wives, often up to eleven, the Quran limited it to four.

I would personally rather be with a man who is obediant to God, with other wives, than to be alone with one abusive selfish boozing and drugging God hating male,

dont forget even alcahol is forbidden in Islam and the Quran is followed regarding behaviour, the Quran im sure has many really good things also regarding marriage

Womans rights are different than other cultures, some things do get too carried away eg the long blue things they wear, it is like they have become ghosts walking around, I disagree with that but it depends, maybe they dont mind it, though I do agree with the average Islamic dress of covering up (cant think of the name hijab?)

January 24, 2010 at 4:54 am#172868

http://www.jannah.org/sisters/shatter.html

Participant

Most problems come not from the Quran but from the countries themselves,

“The negative stereotypes of Muslim women probably arise from this varying treatment of women. The Western media, for some reason, latch on to a few examples of unjust behavior in the Islamic world, brand Islam as a backwards and “fundamentalist” religion, especially in its treatment of women, and ignore that it was the first religion to accord women equal rights.

While Christian and Jewish women were still considered inferior, the originators of sin, and the property of their husbands, Muslim women were being given shares in inheritance, were allowed to choose or refuse prospective husbands, and were considered equal to men in the eyes of God.

However, through time, slowly changing customs, and the rise of male-dominated, patriarchal nation-states, Muslim governments began placing restrictions on women which had no grounds in the Quran, the Islamic holy book; or the hadith, the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad.

One of the basic principles of Islam is justice for all humans and equality in the eyes of God. Women are considered no less than men in aspects of religion and are not denigrated anywhere in the Quran.

First of all, in the Quranic Creation story, Eve is not mentioned as being seduced by the Serpent and taking the first bite of forbidden fruit. Rather, it says: (my italics) “by deceit he [Satan] brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them (7:19:23). Both Eve and Adam were held equally responsible.

Hence, women in Islam do not bear the stigma as the daughters of a sinful Eve nor are they to be blamed for corrupting innocence (Sherif 3). Nor were women created as inferior to men, or solely for pleasure and procreational purposes as the Judeo-Christian scriptures sometimes imply “the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man” (Corinthians 11:3-9).

In contrast, the chapter in the Quran entitled “Women” begins with the passage saying, “O humanity, be reverent to your Lord who created you from one soul and created its mate from it, and from these two disseminated many men and women.”

Here, in very blatant terms, it is stated that women and men are made from the same soul, and therefore, how could one gender possibly be inferior? In fact, neither gender is inferior, as the Quran states: “And their Lord answered them: Truly I will never cause to be lost the work of any of you, Be you a male or female, you are members of one another” (3:195).

This concept of gender equality in Islam begins immediately upon birth. When baby girls were born in Pre-Islamic Arabia, they were often buried alive to prevent shaming the tribe or family. In response to this infanticide, the Quran forbade treating a female child as disgraceful and states that both baby boys and girls are equally a blessing from God: “To Allah belongs the domination of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He bestows female children to whomever He wills and bestows male children to whomever He wills” (42:49).

Prophet Muhammad even guaranteed Paradise to those fathers who bring up their daughters with “benevolent treatment” and also encouraged both males and females to pursue knowledge and education (Bukhari, Muslim).

January 24, 2010 at 6:06 am#172883

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,13:41)

This verse is talking about modest dress and it is to protect the women from men.

You don't understand because you don't get it.

Should everyone be allowed to walk around without clothes?

And why do women need protection? Are they so taken in by their book of mythology that they actually believe all the sexist platitudes? Seems pretty callous to write a book that gives men all sorts of grotesque powers over women, then ALSO commands the women to cover up to protect themselves from the men.

That is sexism both ways.

Why should a woman not be allowed to dress in a provocative manner? What is your problem with that? Can you not be bothered to control yourself? Do you really believe the nonsense written in the koran about what you may do to women?

Have you ever seen an item on TV about naturism? I guess that is less likely in the US. I saw one once (although with genitalia carefully hidden), and after about two minutes of seeing naked human bodies everywhere you get pretty used to it and it no longer strikes you as odd. I think in my city there might only be a couple of days a year that no clothes would be a reasonable option, and we still have a thin ozone layer making clothing a prudent option especially in the middle of the day.

So, I have no problem with either the government making me wear underpants (which is all I am required to do) but I would not expect to be prosecuted if I did go out starkers.

Islam: the religion for those who cannot think for themselves or control themselves.

Stuart

January 24, 2010 at 7:15 am#172888

http://www.jannah.org/sisters/shatter.html

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 24 2010,15:54)

Most problems come not from the Quran but from the countries themselves,

KM,

You truly are a very reliable witness, You speak unfiltered truth and I love it.

January 24, 2010 at 7:20 am#172889

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,17:06)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,13:41)

This verse is talking about modest dress and it is to protect the women from men.

You don't understand because you don't get it.

Should everyone be allowed to walk around without clothes?

That is sexism both ways.

So, I have no problem with either the government making me wear underpants (which is all I am required to do) but I would not expect to be prosecuted if I did go out starkers.

Islam: the religion for those who cannot think for themselves or control themselves.

Stuart

Clothes also protect you from the elements. I dare you to go in the sea on an open boat with nothing on. You wouldn't last very long.

Believing women shouldn't dress provocative, why should a Believer and devout and pious woman want to “provoke” someone?

January 24, 2010 at 7:59 am#172890

Participant

Stu

Quote

You just need to turn on the tv fullstop to see similar things.

Quote

I think in my city there might only be a couple of days a year that no clothes would be a reasonable option, and we still have a thin ozone layer making clothing a prudent option especially in the middle of the day.

Woman in middle eastern countries wearing covering would probably not be as vulnerable to skin cancer as their skin is covered

Quote

So, I have no problem with either the government making me wear underpants (which is all I am required to do) but I would not expect to be prosecuted if I did go out starkers..

You would be arrested for exposure!

and cool- I just finally learnt how to quote and unquote pieces of a post :cool:

January 24, 2010 at 10:45 am#172897

Participant

Quote

Are you really that ignorant of the rights of a prisoner,

No.

Quote

what do you think are Human rights STU?

The basic privileges of existence as a human that are right in principle.

Quote

BTW, How does one have HUMAN rights in your Atheistic Natural selection system?

There are basic privileges of existence as a human that are right in principle. There is no such thing as an “Atheistic Natural selection system” that determines ethics, as far as I am aware.

Quote

What is right to an Amoral Atheist?

Atheists are not amoral.

Quote

Don't Humans have the right to do whatever the will do?

Not if those actions contravene the rights of others. Obviously.

Quote

Who is their authority, who decides?

You still have not met democracy as a concept then.

Stuart

January 24, 2010 at 10:49 am#172898

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,14:03)

The Quran does not give control to men at all but you haven't even read the Quran.

For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). This is a duty on the righteous.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #241)

Seems like all the rules of Alimony and Child support come from Islam

Are you attempting to disprove that the koran gives control to women, as clearly shown in the OP, by telling us about maintenance?

That was not the point, and it remains demonstrated that men can do pretty much what they will in regards to women, without much legal redress. That is certainly how sharia works in practice too.

Stuart

January 24, 2010 at 10:54 am#172899

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 24 2010,18:59)

Woman in middle eastern countries wearing covering would probably not be as vulnerable to skin cancer as their skin is covered

You would be arrested for exposure!

Congrats on your quoting success.

The skin cancer thing is irrelevant really, isn't it. This is not about the benefits of covering up (obviously islamic men can't control themselves so the benefits are real!) but it is about whether women should be allowed to decide what they wear.

The law in NZ says underwear is fine! We do not live in a prudish de facto christian theocracy like those living in the US!

Stuart

January 24, 2010 at 11:32 am#172905

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,21:54)

The law in NZ says underwear is fine!

Stuart

Really? Iv never seen much of that

January 24, 2010 at 11:47 am#172906

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 24 2010,22:32)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,21:54)

The law in NZ says underwear is fine!

Stuart

Really? Iv never seen much of that

I'm not saying it is common to see, but that is the law as I understand it!

Stuart

January 24, 2010 at 11:57 am#172907

princess of the king

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,13:49)

I see this all as cultural, the whole world doesnt have to be like America, before prophet Mohammad men married many wives, often up to eleven, the Quran limited it to four.

if men and women were equal why could not a women have four husbands?

January 24, 2010 at 12:08 pm#172908

princess of the king

Participant

Quote

what of the children stuart?

January 24, 2010 at 6:53 pm#172938

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,21:45)

Quote

Are you really that ignorant of the rights of a prisoner,

No.

Quote

what do you think are Human rights STU?

The basic privileges of existence as a human that are right in principle.

Quote

BTW, How does one have HUMAN rights in your Atheistic Natural selection system?

There are basic privileges of existence as a human that are right in principle. There is no such thing as an “Atheistic Natural selection system” that determines ethics, as far as I am aware.

Quote

What is right to an Amoral Atheist?

Atheists are not amoral.

Quote

Don't Humans have the right to do whatever the will do?

Not if those actions contravene the rights of others. Obviously.

Quote

Who is their authority, who decides?

You still have not met democracy as a concept then.

Stuart

So democracy such as the democracy that allowed Brutal slavery(America had one of the most brutal forms of slavery in which 100's of millions lost their lives) in America for almost 400 years is your democratic ideal of morality?

January 24, 2010 at 7:13 pm#172939