- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.BD
Quote You don't know what a pedophile is, Did Muhammad marry other woman? Pedophilia is like the Atheists disease it follows a pattern. Pedophiles do not get turned on by women.
I don’t think pedophilia requires anything more than the evidence of desiring to have sexual intercourse with a child, which is what mohammad did.Quote A person who has amoral thinking or immoral thinking acknowledges that there is no inherent value to the way they think and will see no problem in changing the criteria by which they decide to accept or reject conclusions. Whatever definition of rationality could be used there is, for such people, no reason why they should accept it. If being rational by some definition leads to conclusions they don't like then they can just change the definition. In extreme cases there can never be enough evidence and strong arguments for them to accept a statement as true, they just continually move the criteria of what constitutes for them convincing evidence and argument.
Yes I know. I wish you would stop doing all these things in your discussions here.Quote Being rational means being a moral thinker.
How? You do spout some drivel sometimes. Actually most of the time.Quote Being a moral thinker means believing in Allah.
Not necessarily. Being moral might also exclude following a violent man who was also a pedophile, a child rapist.Quote Islam is known not only as a rational and moral way of life prescribed for all of mankind, it is known by the term 'Din ul-Fitra' or 'the natural religion'. Islam is the religion designed by the Creator of mankind for the benefit of mankind and therefore fits human nature perfectly. Being Muslim is living in harmony with your human nature.
As long as you are male.Quote Natural desires are considered as coming from Allah and put into people for good reason. They don't need to be repressed but rather simply channelled into the right ways of being fulfilled. So, for example, in Islam getting married is considered 'half of the religion' and each act of making love between a husband and his wife is an act of worship.
Shame mohammad needed to channel his ‘fulfillment’ into sexual acts with minors.Quote When a person is born he/she is purely natural, free of sin and Muslim. Humans, we are told in the Qur'an, are made in the best of forms and start life with a huge plus. It is only in later life that their environments may lead them to take beliefs or adopt practices that contradict Islam.
So hindus and Jews and the Amish are also ‘born muslim’ too.What a load of unreconstituted bollocks you have copied and pasted. The more muslim apologia I have read and seen on video, the more I realise just how little intellectual shame, or actually just ordinary shame such people have as they just lie their way through their propaganda. Lies. There is no more honest word for it!
Quote Because of our nature, deep down we all need to find our purpose in life; we all know we have moral responsibilities and we all know that, if anything ought to be, then Allah must exist.
There are fairies at the bottom of my garden, so allah cannot possibly exist.Quote This being part of human nature, no one can claim that their disbelief was the result of ignorance alone. Disbelief is always, at some level, a conscious and sinful act.
Disbelief cannot possibly be sinful, because non-believers do not buy into the nonsense concept called sin. This disproves the above statement where rational leads logically to allah-belief.Of course the islamic apologist will not have the required intellectual shame to realise the corruption of logic he has propounded here. There will be no retraction or apology, because liars do not show that kind of honesty or self-correction.
Quote On the day of judgement the conscience of the disbeliever will be his or her own damning evidence.
No such thing, sorry. This judgement is just a blind assertion of mythology. There has never been evidence nor reason to think there is any substance to it.You may as well say it is a tissue of lies.
Stuart
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 27 2010,18:27) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:43) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 27 2010,17:02) If Muslims hated Jews why would we love all the Jewish Prophets and the Jewish Messiah? You want to cause division between the believers of God and I am glad you are because gentle argument is the key to discovery.
Your first problem here will be to convince me that Jesus actually existed at all. As it happens, I think that about 60% likely, so I'll give you that as a head start.Now, tell me that you can know even a single thing that Jesus actually said.
There was not one eyewitness of Jesus who wrote an account of him. All we have is people making claims. There is no evidence for any of them whatsoever.
Gentle argument is the key to falling for a nasty mythology.
Stuart
You disprove your self. You said you are about 60% sure Jesus existed now as far as Jesus saying a specific thing would you not agree that if you are 60% certain that Jesus existed that he would have generally said what was reported?I mean even if it is all paraphrased doesn't follow a certain theme?
If someone simply made up the theme what would be the point in assigning such a theme to Jesus when there were other figures it could have been assigned to and better accepted.
Now you are suggesting probability of existence of an individual is the SAME as probability of accuracy of what was claimed to have been said by that person?? You are the master of the non-sequitur. Not that you know what that means.They picked their messiah and went for it, didn't they. Have you ever bothered to consider how much any of the 'disciples' (again, NOT ONE eyewitness amongst them who wrote about Jesus) could possibly have known independently about the circumstances of Jesus's birth or early childhood? The early christians made the lot up, changing census and probably inventing the massacre of the innocents just to make their embarrassingly executed leader into a martyr.
A very large chunk of the christian bible was written by Saul of Tarsus, a man who, by his own admission never met Jesus.
Are you seriously suggesting he is a reliable source for what Jesus preached?
There is not one single person in any of this who is even claiming that he is writing down what he heard Jesus say.
It is all nearly as laughable as someone claiming to have the words of god passed on to him by an angel.
Stuart
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:33) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 27 2010,09:21) t8…..sounds to me you are very particular about religion. So when KM starts talking about following what God has put in her heart and that she is drawn to Islam why didn't you say to her “God bless you sister then Islam must be for you”
If she was a Muslim and said God has been drawing me to Christianity you would have been the first to say “God bless you sister God has shown you the truth”
Bod, do you think that if this was a Muslim website and I was a Muslim like all were, and I said I wanted to follow Christ, that a Muslim would honestly say “God bless you sister then Christianity must be for you” ? (Isnt there a death penalty for Apostacy) t8s advice was just that.. He was only saying that submission is ok, but its religeon itself in todays world which is the issue. ok. I love everything else you wrote though.
You can give a shot, just join one and see, in Islam there is no compulsion in religion and no death penalty for apostates, if some tribe or culture is doing that it is them doing it but that is not in the Quran or Islamic teachings just like it is not in the bible that Christians should have been forced to be Catholic during the inquisition and other times in history or the KKK in modern times with their killing and racism in the name of Christ.Outlaws don't dictate what's right, we know what's right. Submission is not just “okay” it is EVERYTHING if a person does not submit to God he is not even being a Christian or a Jew. If you are not obedient to God, how can you expect to be in His Will?
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
STU does not know what a pedophile is considering that in Muhammad's lifetime he had several wives of varying ages some older than him and some younger with Aisha being the youngest.The problem is STU sees Marriage as purely “sexual” which as we know from history many marriages were arranged for reasons of peace or for closeness between tribes or families.
Khadija bint khawilad
40
Twice widowed beforeSauda Bint Zama
50
WidowAisha bint Abu Bakr
9
Started living with the prophet at the age of 9.Hafsa Bint Umar bin Khattab
22
WidowZainab bint Khuzaima
30
?Umm-I-Salma bint Abu Umayia
26
WidowZainab Bint Jahash
38
WidowJuwaeria Bint Harith
20
WidowUmm-I-Habiba bint Abu Sufyan
36
WidowMarya Qibtiya bint Shamun
17
Virgin, EgyptianSafia bint Hayi bin Akhtab
17
WidowRaihana bint umru bin hanafa
?
?Maimuna bint harith
36
widowThere is a large variety there the majority which are widows which shows his compassionate nature to take them in. Also there was another reason why he married aisha and it has to do with the fact that he taught her Islam from a child and being that she lived for 50 years after the prophet she helped preserve the original context and content of the Quran as well as preserve details of his life.
If you read the entire bible you will find no reccomended age to be married but you will see that Marriage itself is the prerequisite and if someone is your wife they are your wife. Different cultures have different age standards even in the states different states have different age standards.
A pedophile would not marry or be attracted to older women at all but the fact is married women of varying ages.
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,00:23) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
STU,I asked you was Morals “Absolute” you said they were not.
I'll ask you again are there any Absolute Morals?
Maybe you'll find out why your a hypocrie
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,00:23) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
St, I said that doesnt seem right to me either as in that seems really wrong to be with a 9 year old, I agreed (duh)http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/pedophile.htm
I found the above link too hard to even read. And its a Muslim one.
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 28 2010,06:57) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,00:23) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
St, I said that doesnt seem right to me either as in that seems really wrong to be with a 9 year old, I agreed (duh)http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/pedophile.htm
I found the above link too hard to even read. And its a Muslim one.
OK, sorry.I even thought you meant that when I first read it…
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,07:08) OK, sorry. I even thought you meant that when I first read it…
Stuart
Thats ok, I suppose my reply could of meant anything, it was late. I had been looking into it last night to see if it was true, and found out it was. Im quite shocked actually.Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 28 2010,04:38) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
STU does not know what a pedophile is considering that in Muhammad's lifetime he had several wives of varying ages some older than him and some younger with Aisha being the youngest.The problem is STU sees Marriage as purely “sexual” which as we know from history many marriages were arranged for reasons of peace or for closeness between tribes or families.
Khadija bint khawilad
40
Twice widowed beforeSauda Bint Zama
50
WidowAisha bint Abu Bakr
9
Started living with the prophet at the age of 9.Hafsa Bint Umar bin Khattab
22
WidowZainab bint Khuzaima
30
?Umm-I-Salma bint Abu Umayia
26
WidowZainab Bint Jahash
38
WidowJuwaeria Bint Harith
20
WidowUmm-I-Habiba bint Abu Sufyan
36
WidowMarya Qibtiya bint Shamun
17
Virgin, EgyptianSafia bint Hayi bin Akhtab
17
WidowRaihana bint umru bin hanafa
?
?Maimuna bint harith
36
widowThere is a large variety there the majority which are widows which shows his compassionate nature to take them in. Also there was another reason why he married aisha and it has to do with the fact that he taught her Islam from a child and being that she lived for 50 years after the prophet she helped preserve the original context and content of the Quran as well as preserve details of his life.
If you read the entire bible you will find no reccomended age to be married but you will see that Marriage itself is the prerequisite and if someone is your wife they are your wife. Different cultures have different age standards even in the states different states have different age standards.
A pedophile would not marry or be attracted to older women at all but the fact is married women of varying ages.
Thats true, I do see your point that Mohammad did marry older woman than Aisha, and she was the only one that age, so not the typical pedophile of today, but then:Quote ..Once Aisha was a part of Muhammad’s household, she became his favorite wife, even after he married several other women. Indeed, Muhammad’s other wives had to plead with him for treatment equal to that of Aisha..unquote
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/pedophile.htmI read a book once which said she was 14 or older so whenever anyone said she was younger I didnt really believe it, but now Iv seen different. I hadnt realized.
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 28 2010,06:57) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,00:23) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
St, I said that doesnt seem right to me either as in that seems really wrong to be with a 9 year old, I agreed (duh)http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/pedophile.htm
I found the above link too hard to even read. And its a Muslim one.
Just to let you know that is not a Muslim site. It is a Christian site, there are many Christian sites today trying to make their site have an Islamic look and feel as to give the impression that it is Islamic.However I have already made comments about this. We know what is moral or immoral by the scriptures not by our own feelings. In the Holy Bible it does not condemn or support age related marriage, it doesn't matter if it seems inappropriate to us the Bible strictly tells us what is forbidden and what is acceptable in great detail.
The Bible also tells us what relationships are not permissable and young age is not one of those issues.
STU fully accepts homosexuality and it feels acceptable to him and in-fact most people today say it's okay for to men or women to be married but the fact is the Bible condemns homosexuality in the Old and New testament.
The point is we cannot accept what the bible condemns and reject what the bible does not condemn.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 28 2010,08:36) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 28 2010,06:57) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,00:23) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
St, I said that doesnt seem right to me either as in that seems really wrong to be with a 9 year old, I agreed (duh)http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/pedophile.htm
I found the above link too hard to even read. And its a Muslim one.
Just to let you know that is not a Muslim site. It is a Christian site, there are many Christian sites today trying to make their site have an Islamic look and feel as to give the impression that it is Islamic.However I have already made comments about this. We know what is moral or immoral by the scriptures not by our own feelings. In the Holy Bible it does not condemn or support age related marriage, it doesn't matter if it seems inappropriate to us the Bible strictly tells us what is forbidden and what is acceptable in great detail.
The Bible also tells us what relationships are not permissable and young age is not one of those issues.
STU fully accepts homosexuality and it feels acceptable to him and in-fact most people today say it's okay for to men or women to be married but the fact is the Bible condemns homosexuality in the Old and New testament.
The point is we cannot accept what the bible condemns and reject what the bible does not condemn.
I didnt know that, I thought it was a Muslim site.I also didnt know it was common in historical Bedoin society.
Quote….Child marriages such as this were relatively common in Bedouin societies at the time, and remain common in some modern societies worldwide.[21] American scholar Colin Turner suggests that such marriages were not seen as improper in historical context, and that individuals in such societies matured at an earlier age than in the modern West.[21] In modern times, however, the issue of Muhammad marrying and having sexual relations with a girl so young has been used to criticize him, particularly in the West, where there is heightened concern about child sexual abuse and related issues.[21] In response some modern Muslim apologists have argued that adding up other dates given in the traditional sources may indicate that Aisha was older. Such a tactic was employed by the Indian Ahmadiyya figure Maulana Muhammad Ali.[22] However, scholars such as Watt accept the traditional account. ….unquote
Quote You can give a shot, just join one and see, in Islam there is no compulsion in religion
Sura 33:36 And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.Quote and no death penalty for apostates, if some tribe or culture is doing that it is them doing it but that is not in the Quran or Islamic teachings just like it is not in the bible that Christians should have been forced to be Catholic during the inquisition and other times in history or the KKK in modern times with their killing and racism in the name of Christ. This is the sura most commonly cited by islamic countries that do have the death penalty for apostasy from islam, like Iran, Afghanistan and Egypt:
Sura 4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
Your belief about whether apostasy is punishable by death depends on what you think ‘enmity’ means.
Again, BD discounts the hadiths, but most don’t:
“Whoever changes his religion shall be killed.” (Abu Dawud)
“It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam…..” (Abu Dawud).
Maybe all these murderous nutcases agree with this murderous nutcase:
Whatever the reasons the islamic world threatens muslims with death for apostasy, it sure would not be happening if islam did not exist, and it sure isn’t part of the freedom of religion and expression that we have fought so hard to defend in the West.
Is it submission to god or submission to deluded crackpots who want to stamp on human rights?
Quote Outlaws don't dictate what's right, we know what's right. Submission is not just “okay” it is EVERYTHING if a person does not submit to God he is not even being a Christian or a Jew.
The ‘outlaws’ might just commit themselves to leading a decent life, where they respect the rights of others and love them for who they are…not how easy they are to convert…Quote BD wrote: If you are not obedient to God, how can you expect to be in His Will?
While reason is not always what you get with Judeo-christian thought, at least it SAYS it:Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD
Reason versus submission…
Even the con artist Saul of Tarsus has a go a reasonableness (before spoiling it in the next verse):
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
…whatsoever it may be!
Honesty versus submission.
I’m not saying that I think Judeo-christian belief is any less barking mad than islam, but it is mildly less anti-human.
Stuart
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 28 2010,09:14) I also didnt know it was common in historical Bedoin society. Quote….Child marriages such as this were relatively common in Bedouin societies at the time, and remain common in some modern societies worldwide.[21] American scholar Colin Turner suggests that such marriages were not seen as improper in historical context, and that individuals in such societies matured at an earlier age than in the modern West.[21] In modern times, however, the issue of Muhammad marrying and having sexual relations with a girl so young has been used to criticize him, particularly in the West, where there is heightened concern about child sexual abuse and related issues.[21] In response some modern Muslim apologists have argued that adding up other dates given in the traditional sources may indicate that Aisha was older. Such a tactic was employed by the Indian Ahmadiyya figure Maulana Muhammad Ali.[22] However, scholars such as Watt accept the traditional account. ….unquote
Of course the question that remains with mohammad's pedophilia is whether it is wrong today to have sex with minors who have not reached the age of consent nor sexual awareness.If it is wrong, if all the countries that have a legal age of consent are doing the right thing, then WHAT IS THE POINT OF ISLAM?
What enduring divine principles does it teach that are timeless? Why would you slavishly submit to a religion or religious leader who in the past taught things that are now known to be ethically repugnant?
You can see why islamic countries are amongst the poorest and most backward in the world, even though at one point they were amongst the most enlightened. They are guilty of sticking to the same mentality and getting the same Dark Age results, to paraphrase Einstein.
Was mohammad right or wrong to have sex with a nine year old? Should we perhaps not do as mohammad did?
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 28 2010,04:41) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,00:23) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
STU,I asked you was Morals “Absolute” you said they were not.
I'll ask you again are there any Absolute Morals?
Maybe you'll find out why your a hypocrie
Looking at our species from outside, you would have to conclude that all morals are treated as absolute, even though they are pragmatic and respond to evolutionary selection pressures in both the genetic and cultural senses of that.From inside, we treat morals as absolute principles.
At least some do. Is sex with a minor absolutely wrong?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,00:23) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
STU,If you don't accept the Bible or the Quran as true and you don't accept any absolutes at all. Where are you getting your standards from? Do you just make it up as you go along?
If anyone believe in the Holy Scriptures they should find out what the scriptures say about those matters but we are not to create our own standards of morality because there is a way that seems right to men that ends in death.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 28 2010,08:36) However I have already made comments about this. We know what is moral or immoral by the scriptures not by our own feelings. In the Holy Bible it does not condemn or support age related marriage, it doesn't matter if it seems inappropriate to us the Bible strictly tells us what is forbidden and what is acceptable in great detail. The Bible also tells us what relationships are not permissable and young age is not one of those issues.
STU fully accepts homosexuality and it feels acceptable to him and in-fact most people today say it's okay for to men or women to be married but the fact is the Bible condemns homosexuality in the Old and New testament.
The point is we cannot accept what the bible condemns and reject what the bible does not condemn.
OK, I see you are using the bible to justify pedophilia now. Nice.I do accept homosexuality as a valid expression of love between consenting adults. Notwithstanding that I do not understand homosexuality from personal experience, I think it is ethically immoral to suggest that the gender of the person one feels an attraction to love and care for should decide whether you feel that person is worthy of death for feeling a natural motive for loving and caring for another or not.
It's brutal, mindless, Dark Age submission to intellectual and moral bankruptcy.
If your god gave you a brain, why do you refuse to use it for developing an ethical argument? Are you afraid its 'designer'
built in traps to deceive you?You cannot reject what the bible does not condemn? What does that mean?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,09:21) Quote You can give a shot, just join one and see, in Islam there is no compulsion in religion
Sura 33:36 And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.Quote and no death penalty for apostates, if some tribe or culture is doing that it is them doing it but that is not in the Quran or Islamic teachings just like it is not in the bible that Christians should have been forced to be Catholic during the inquisition and other times in history or the KKK in modern times with their killing and racism in the name of Christ. This is the sura most commonly cited by islamic countries that do have the death penalty for apostasy from islam, like Iran, Afghanistan and Egypt:
Sura 4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
Your belief about whether apostasy is punishable by death depends on what you think ‘enmity’ means.
Again, BD discounts the hadiths, but most don’t:
“Whoever changes his religion shall be killed.” (Abu Dawud)
“It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam…..” (Abu Dawud).
Maybe all these murderous nutcases agree with this murderous nutcase:
Whatever the reasons the islamic world threatens muslims with death for apostasy, it sure would not be happening if islam did not exist, and it sure isn’t part of the freedom of religion and expression that we have fought so hard to defend in the West.
Is it submission to god or submission to deluded crackpots who want to stamp on human rights?
Quote Outlaws don't dictate what's right, we know what's right. Submission is not just “okay” it is EVERYTHING if a person does not submit to God he is not even being a Christian or a Jew.
The ‘outlaws’ might just commit themselves to leading a decent life, where they respect the rights of others and love them for who they are…not how easy they are to convert…Quote BD wrote: If you are not obedient to God, how can you expect to be in His Will?
While reason is not always what you get with Judeo-christian thought, at least it SAYS it:Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD
Reason versus submission…
Even the con artist Saul of Tarsus has a go a reasonableness (before spoiling it in the next verse):
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
…whatsoever it may be!
Honesty versus submission.
I’m not saying that I think Judeo-christian belief is any less barking mad than islam, but it is mildly less anti-human.
Stuart
Surah 488 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
90 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.Clearly this is talking about those being aggressive that if they restrain themselves from being aggressive we shall accept their peace. This has nothing to do with someone wanting to change the religion. Once again STU you are incorrect. The Quran clearly says:
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)Now no amount of deceit from you can change that fact. Notice it doesn't even mention a certain faith here, it does not say Islam or Christian or Judaism it CLEARLY SAYS:
whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
What you don't understand STU is religion is the way someone believes in God. Rejecting evil such as disbelief as you embrace.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 28 2010,09:34) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 28 2010,00:23) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 27 2010,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 27 2010,17:34) karmarie Do you feel comfortable with the original 'teacher' of islam being a pedophile
Quote Im not sure about that I havent looked into it much?
He married a 6 year old girl and consummated the marriage (ie raped a minor) when she was nine.Nice, eh?
That doesnt seem right to me either.
No? Well it happens to be true. Maybe you should consider looking at some websites that are critical of islam, instead of the ones that praise it all with glazed eyes and lies!Stuart
STU,If you don't accept the Bible or the Quran as true and you don't accept any absolutes at all. Where are you getting your standards from? Do you just make it up as you go along?
If anyone believe in the Holy Scriptures they should find out what the scriptures say about those matters but we are not to create our own standards of morality because there is a way that seems right to men that ends in death.
Your argument is as simple to refute as making a list of decent, ethical atheists who have lived by the highest standards and have contributed much to improving the wellbeing and dignity of their fellow humans, never having once harmed anyone intentionally, or used the bible to justify pedophilia even. They may reject the bible and koran, but you have not made an ethical case against doing that, and I think I have made the case very well FOR rejecting both on moral grounds.Shall I make such a list of atheists for you?
Stuart
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
