The key to knowledge ?luk;11-52

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 04 2009,18:51)

hi ron were did i irritate you???????????????

I didn't say you.

I was speaking about the other posters in here, in answering your post.

[terraricca]

hi ron
OK

[terraricca]

hi ron
but i still dont have the answers

[942767]

Hi Ron:

Maybe I should read a little more carefully, and maybe you also should have asked him to clarify what he was saying before jumping on him the way that you did.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[seekingtruth]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 05 2009,08:51)

Original post: Quote seekingtruth, Posted: Nov. 30 2009,22:10, 52″Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.” They tried to gain a relationship with the Father by obeying rules, missing the obedience that follows, having a relationship with the Father. My opinion – Wm He gave a verse about “experts in the LAW”. He then posted a comment about that verse, with the exception of he used the word “rules”. The word “rules”, and “law” can be interchangable. There is no implication here of interpretation of “ADDED” or “ADDED – MAN MADE RULES” in his post. So, since we see NOTHING IMPLIED in his original post. I responded about the verse he QUOTED: Quote Constitutionalist, Posted: Nov. 30 2009,22:55, Wrong, wrong, wrong! You are way off. It has nothing to do with keep or obeying the law or rules. Is that what your SUNday school teaches? It is all about vain man made traditions overlapping what 'elohim put forth. Luke 11:52 [1] Woe unto you, lawyers! [1a] for ye have {n} taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. [1] Those who ought to be the door keepers of the Church have for a long time mainly hindered the people from entering into the knowledge of 'elohim. [1a] They have hidden and taken away, so that it cannot be found anywhere. They have obscured and destroyed the knowledge of the Messiah, which is the key of both the present and the future kingdom of heaven; the kingdom of grace and glory. They have not entered into the present kingdom of heaven.   And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of 'elohim, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. . . Matthew 23:12-32 It was never because they obeyed the law or rules or regulations. It was because the bastardized and abused the righteous law of 'elohim with there vAIN man made traditions and rituals. You want the answer for Luke 11:52 then read and meditate on all of Matthew chapter 23. How dare you try to say that obedience to the law is something evil. I explained what the verse actually means. Now he switches up what he is saying, he is saying rules are not laws, but they are laws. And now he introduces 'MAN MADE LAWS”, see it? Quote rules are not laws they are man made laws. Quote seekingtruth, Posted: Dec. 01 2009,07:22, Ron, I in no way said that, when I said obeying rules I was saying the same as you, rules are not laws they are man made laws. But even so expecting to be made right with God by our obedience to His law… Abraham was made right with God through his perfect life? Yes obedience is important, but true obedience is as a result of knowing God, not that we know God as a result of our obedience. I appreciate your belittling me, you show that christian love we're to be known for. My opinion – Wm Notice he says “rules” are not “laws” but yet he says they are “laws”. And he NEVER mentioned “MAN MADE LAWS/RULES” in first post, but briefly tossed it in his second post. And yet neither of those two post correctly portrayed the 'VERSE” he quoted. And you agreed with him. He then tossed in my correcting him on the quoting and his intepretation of that verse as “belittling”. Not much I can do about that, those are his feelings. But I did respond to him: Quote Constitutionalist, Dec. 02 2009,19:04, Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 01 2009,07:22) Ron, I in no way said that, when I said obeying rules I was saying the same as you, rules are not laws they are man made laws. But even so expecting to be made right with God by our obedience to His law… Abraham was made right with God through his perfect life? Yes obedience is important, but true obedience is as a result of knowing God, not that we know God as a result of our obedience. I appreciate your belittling me, you show that christian love we're to be known for. My opinion – Wm If you think correction and belit tling are one and the same then it is your issue. What is the old saying? Truth is a bitter pill. Quote Constitutionalist, Posted: Dec. 02 2009,19:06, Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2009,08:03) Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 01 2009,10:22) Ron, I in no way said that, when I said obeying rules I was saying the same as you, rules are not laws they are man made laws. But even so expecting to be made right with God by our obedience to His law… Abraham was made right with God through his perfect life? Yes obedience is important, but true obedience is as a result of knowing God, not that we know God as a result of our obedience. I appreciate your belittling me, you show that christian love we're to be known for. My opinion – Wm Hi Seeking Agreed! His willingness to come under the law and judge others who do not is evident! He stands by a Muslim who preaches and teaches against the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and yet judges those who oppose the Muslim and his falsehoods! You shall know them by their fruits indeed! WJ Rules , Laws, Commandments, Decrees, Sayings, are all the same thing in Scripture, they are all interchangable. Do you want PROOF? I even offered to show him how it is interchangable. So if you read it carefully, you see he meant them as the same thing, until I added my post, then he changed it up in in second post. I do not apologize for correcting. And you should read a little carefully.

Being accused of speaking against the law as I did puts me in good company:

Acts 6:13
They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law.

Scripture says:
Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Romans 3:21
[ Righteousness Through Faith ] But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

I guess he also speaks “evil” according to you Ron

Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

555.Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

When I stated that “rules” are man made, they are. The biggest one being that our obedience to God's laws is our path to salvation (actually it would be if we could do it). I believe the above scriptures make it clear, that is not so. The law, is to make us aware of our sins and if approached without arrogance, the hopelessness of our keeping it. It is this that drives us to put our trust (faith) in the Father (for any who seeks to know truth).

Now before you start going on that I'm promoting sinful living:

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 4:15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

As I said obeying man's “rules”, or even believing we can be justified by obeying God's laws, is not supported by scripture.

What do you make of this scripture:

Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

You admit you follow the Law poorly, yet you uphold as if it was your god and source of salvation. The Law is a light, exposing our need of a Saviour. And the love commanded by the Saviour, fulfills the Law.

I want to thank Marty for his loving response both to me and in his approach to you.

As always I offer only my opinion – Wm

[terraricca]

hi to all
it is so simple just to obey Gods, will, law,consel,directions,love,this way we all will end up in the same place, at Christ wedding.

[terraricca]

hi all
Pr 8:32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
Pr 8:33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
Pr 8:34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
Pr 8:35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
Pr 8:36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death

[banana]

To all

The topic is “The Key to Knowledge”.
Then, the first reply was was countered with, “Wrong, Wrong, Wrong”.
And from then on it went down hill, all the way to the last response.
So, did any one find the “KEY” to knowledge? I seriously doubt it, no evidence to that here.
You want find it here, you want find it in any church, there is only one place you can find knowledge, in the “Word of God”, but that is not the key either, that is just the door. The “KEY” to that door is “God's Holy Spirit”, without it, you may have knowledge of the book, but no understanding. That you can only get “with” the help of the “Holy Spirit”. And you have to ask for it in spirit and in truth.
What does “in truth” mean?
It means, you have to believe the word of God what it says, not what you make it to say.
If you don't believe the truth, you don't have the truth, if you don't have the truth, you worship in vain.

Georg

[terraricca]

hi georg
Jesus was talking to the Jewish leaders,and only to them ,that they had tooked away the key to knowledge,

and ron said;

[1] Those who ought to be the door keepers of the Church have for a long time mainly hindered the people from entering into the knowledge of 'elohim.

[1a] They have hidden and taken away, so that it cannot be found anywhere.

They have obscured and destroyed the knowledge of the Messiah, which is the key of both the present and the future kingdom of heaven; the kingdom of grace and glory. They have not entered into the present kingdom of heaven.

of cause it is understood that we were talking about the scriptures knowledge.

[banana]

Terraricca

And what is it that you find in today's churches, any knowledge there? I don't think so.
You find the same knowledge here on the forum, it's called, opinions.
If you don't go by the Word of God, that's all it is, opinion.
Show me a church that goes by the Word of God.

Georg

[terraricca]

hi georg
the question was what is the “key to knowledge ” it does not say( the key OF knowledge)this is a different question.

[terraricca]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 25 2009,12:52)

Terraricca And what is it that you find in today's churches, any knowledge there? I don't think so. You find the same knowledge here on the forum, it's called, opinions. If you don't go by the Word of God, that's all it is, opinion. Show me a church that goes by the Word of God. Georg

georg
you right but until the end this will be so.

narrow is the way to salvation,and large the way to perdition

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
The key of knowledge is the Spirit of God.[1Cor2]
But knowledge is not all and can be a trap.
Fruit is what our God wants.

[Elizabeth]

Nick

That's exactly the point, every body has knowledge, but no understanding, why? because understanding comes from God, and the only way you can get it is, ask for it in prayer. But there is a condition attached to it, first you have to believe the word of God.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
True but Wisdom is more precious yet.

[terraricca]

NICK

the truth and wisdom are spell out in scriptures ,but like georg says you have to believe it first then you obviously put it to practice and receive understanding

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2010,05:11)

Hi T, The key of knowledge is the Spirit of God.[1Cor2] But knowledge is not all and can be a trap. Fruit is what our God wants.

nick

it is the key TO knowledge.in Luk 11;52

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2010,05:27)

Hi Georg, True but Wisdom is more precious yet.

Nick

What is the difference between “wisdom”, and “understanding”?

Georg

[terraricca]

georg

wisdom of Gods words can be know,but the understanding of it is from God,who knows the spirit of God unless he make it known.

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
Wisdom is beyond knowledge.
It is more than hows and whys.
It is imbued with love and meaning.

[Author]

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