The jewish messiah

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,18:09)

Informative. Nice work. Thanks Catholic Apologist.

Yes nice work, except that Catholc stuff!

Peace and Love Irene

October 11, 2009 at 11:04 pm#149792

Participant

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 12 2009,10:29)

Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,09:52)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2009,08:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,07:48)

Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.

On earth as it is in heaven

What is so sad, that so many Catholics think that being Catholic is the only true Church. We used to believe so too.
I think that God has to open your eyes and call you out of whatever false Church you are in. I am forever thankful to God, for calling us out of that Catholic Church.
But like I said before a Catholic is a Catholic and you can't tell them that their wrong.
I remember when we first left the Church, Georg's Mother lived in Germany. She found out that we left the Church and called us. When we told Her about Maria having other children, She said and I quote:” If that is what the Bible says then trow the thing in the garbage can.”
Peace and Love Irene

Then Georg's mother, God rest her soul, was an uninformed Catholic. This has never been Catholic sentiment.

Mary did not have other children. The Bible doesn't say so. So there was no need for this type of comment anyway.

This is speaking of Jesus and His brothers and His Mother calling Him.
Mark 3:31 ” Then His brothers and His mother came, standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him.
Gal. 1:19 But I saw none of the other Apstles exept James, the Lord's Brother.
Jesus had at least two Brothers. I know there is also a Scripture that talks about His sisters. I have to look that up.
Irene

October 12, 2009 at 5:11 am#149819

Participant

Hi Catholic Apologist,
Thanks for taking pains to answer my Jewish objections. But the reasons/arguments you brought forth are all Christian reasons and are often biased by the Christian/Hellenistic writers of N.T. No learned Jew agree with such interpretations. NT writers developed life history of Jesus from the Jewish scriptures as if he has fulfilled all prophecies of O.T. In fact they are often unreliable and biased.

October 12, 2009 at 5:18 am#149820

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 10 2009,17:43)

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 09 2009,21:06)

The third, fourth, fifth and sixth criteria have obviously not been fulfilled — neither during Jesus' time nor since. Any Christian claims that these final criteria will be fulfilled in a “Second Coming” are irrelevant because the concept of the Messiah coming twice has no scriptural basis.

THIS HAS ALWAYS TROUBLED ME!

Hi Sis Mandy,
I know you are always honest in giving replies. I have brought forth this new thread not to dishonour Jesus but to understand the motiff of N.T writers to prove Jesus as the Jewish Messiah inspite of their mistaken application of O.T scriptures.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

October 12, 2009 at 5:26 am#149822

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2009,23:22)

Gollamudi source reads:

Quote

Jews do not believe that the Messiah is a part of G-d, or Divine in any way, more than any other person. Jews look only to G-d for our salvation, and when the time comes for G-d to bring the anointed king, then it shall happen. Jews do not concern ourselves with the messiah's identity, for the messiah is a person and the messiah's coming does not change our relationship with G-d. Jews do not accept the notion that Scripture “foretells” that G-d would robe Himself in flesh; in fact, to Jews, this idea is idolatry, and we stand against it

I do not see how that differs from what Christians believe.

Gollamudi source reads:

Quote

Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple (besides saying that the Messiah will build the Third Temple, this chapter also details the exact dimensions that the Third Temple would have – precluding the Third Temple from simply being an allegory in Christian tradition)

I am going to venture a guess that the Jews are confused since I believe Ezekiel who prophesied before the second temple was built was speaking of the second temple.

Gollamudi,

Have you examined these claims?

Why do you choose to put your trust in those that claim to be Jews?

Hi brother Kerwin,
This is where I don't agree with most of our Christians. They don't see God of Isreal today same as the Jews. They see Jesus as the part or person of Godhead and they see Jesus as the incarnation of God.

Coming to Ezekiel 38-46 prophecies, I don't see them as applicable to Second Temple if you see the background and the coonditions of their fulfillments. No learned Jew will agree with such Christian interpretations. They are the most important prophecies for the Messianic era. Jewish Messiah will fulfill all of them in future including building of Third temple and restoration of animal sacrifices.

Peace to you
Adam

October 12, 2009 at 5:49 am#149824

Participant

Hi GM,
Do you think you will agree with the Jews who did not recognize their messiah king??

October 12, 2009 at 6:46 am#149826

Participant

Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,11:04)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 12 2009,10:29)

Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,09:52)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2009,08:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,07:48)

Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.

On earth as it is in heaven

Then Georg's mother, God rest her soul, was an uninformed Catholic. This has never been Catholic sentiment.

Mary did not have other children. The Bible doesn't say so. So there was no need for this type of comment anyway.

These were not sons of Mary.

October 12, 2009 at 6:50 am#149827

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 12 2009,17:11)

Actually that is patently false. Many a learned Jew has looked at the evidence for Messiah and converted. So this is not an objective perspective you give. Funny thing is that you try to claim a lack of objectivity on our part.

Of course they are Christian reasons. You don't expect Muslim reasons. I'm a Christian. But my reasons give the best answer from a purely Jewish perspective. There are other reasons besides the case for Jesus Messiah that some Jews choose not to convert and become completed Jews.

October 12, 2009 at 8:06 am#149838

Participant

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 12 2009,18:46)

Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,11:04)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 12 2009,10:29)

Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,09:52)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2009,08:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,07:48)

Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.

On earth as it is in heaven

Then Georg's mother, God rest her soul, was an uninformed Catholic. This has never been Catholic sentiment.

Mary did not have other children. The Bible doesn't say so. So there was no need for this type of comment anyway.

These were not sons of Mary.

Are you for real? The Lord's Brother is not His Brother? Boy. yeh He is a boy.
You know what I should not sign this and let you figure out if I am a Mother, or a Sister. Let me see, I think Irene is a Sister?
No she is a Mother and a Sister.
Mary did not stay a Virgin, so She had other Childre, but of course I will never tell a Catholic that He is wrong or right for that matter. About the Catholics, when we were in the Church nobody read the Bible in our City. And I went to 3 different Churches here. But that is 25 years ago. I gues things changed.
Irene

October 12, 2009 at 10:17 am#149857

Participant

PROBLEMS ABOUND FOR THE CHRISTIAN POSITION…BUT FEW RECOGNIZE THEY EXIST
The following few “problems” will point our some of the glaring discrepancies and inconsistencies in the missionaries' arguments:—

Problem: The Jewish Messiah is to be a human being born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a g-d, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth, as Christianity claims.

Nowhere does the Jewish Bible or Prophets say that the Messiah would be a g-d or G-d-like. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts the concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe, according to the Jewish Scriptures, that G-d alone is to be worshipped, not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the Messiah himself.

Nowhere does the Bible predict that the Messiah will be born to a virgin. In fact, virgins never give birth anywhere in the Bible. This idea is to be found only in pagan mythology. To the Jewish mind, the very idea that G-d would plant a seed in a woman is unnecessary and unnatural.

Answer for yourself: After all — what is accomplished by this claim?

Answer for yourself: What positive purpose does it serve?

The claim that Mary did not have natural relations with her husband must have made the Jews of that time suspect her of wrongdoing. The New Testament (the Christian Bible) admits as much when it says (Matthew 1:19), “Then Joseph her (Mary's) husband, being a just man, and not willing to shame her in public, decided to divorce her quietly.” The whole idea of virgin birth serves no purpose, except to attract pagans to Christianity.

Problem: The Jewish Messiah is expected to return the Jews to their land. Yeshua was born while the Jews still lived in their land, before they had gone into exile. He could not restore them to their land because they were still living in it!

Problem: The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem — but Yeshua lived while the Temple was still standing.

Problem: The Jewish Bible says that the Messiah will redeem Israel. In the case of Yeshua, the very opposite took place. Not long after his death, the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was laid to waste, and the Jews went into exile to begin a 1900-year-long night of persecution—largely at the hands of the followers of this self-styled “Messiah!”

Problem: The Prophets in the Bible foretold (Isaiah 45) that when the Messiah comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge and worship the one true G-d. “The knowledge of G-d will fill the earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the seas” (Isaiah 11:9). Nothing of this nature took place following the death of Yeshua. On the contrary, Islam developed and became the religion of the Arabs and many other nations, Christianity broke up into many conflicting sects which were constantly at war with each other, and a large part of the world continued to worship idols. Even today the world is far from the worship of one G-d.

Problem: When the true Messiah comes, his influence will extend over all peoples who will worship G-d at the Temple in Jerusalem. The Prophet says, “For My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations.” This has obviously not yet taken place, and, therefore, the Messiah has not yet come.

Problem: During the time of the Messiah a new spirit will rule the world, and man will cease committing sins and crimes; this will especially apply to the Jews. The Torah (in Deuteronomy 30:6) says that “G-d will circumcise your heart and the heart of your children to love G-d.” The Prophets taught: “And your people are all righteous, they will inherit the earth forever” (Isaiah 60:21); “In that day I will seek the sins of Israel and there will be none” (Jeremiah 50:20); “I will give you a new heart and a new spirit—and you will obey My laws and commandments and do them” (Ezekiel 36:26,27). Soon after the time of Yeshua, ignorance of G-d and even ignorance of science and philosophy filled the earth, as the “Dark Ages” overtook the world.

Problem: The true Messiah is to reign as King of the Jews. Yeshua's career as described in the New Testament lasted all of three years, at the end of which he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal. He never functioned as anything but a wandering preacher and “faith healer”; certainly, he held no official position or exercised any rule of any kind.

Problem: During the time of the Messiah, prophecy will return to the Jewish people and the presence of G-d will dwell amongst us. (Joel 3,1) “And after that I will pour my spirit on all of mankind and your sons and daughters will prophesy.” These predictions, too, are yet to be fulfilled.

Problem: One of the Messiah's major tasks is to bring peace to the entire world. In the time of the Messiah, there are to be no more wars, and the manufacture of arms will cease. The Prophet Isaiah (2:4) says, “And they shalt beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” Yet, Christian nations are continually at war and wars have been going on almost non-stop since the time of Yeshua up to and including today.

Problem: The New Testament itself claims that the prophecies concerning the Messiah were to be realized in Yeshua's own generation. Mark (13:30) clearly says, “truthfully I say unto you that this generation shall not pass until all these things be done.” In Matthew 4, Yeshua is quoted saying that “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” Almost 2,000 years have passed and still nothing has been accomplished.

Problem: Nowhere does the Jewish Bible teach the Messiah would come once, be killed, and be return once, be killed, and return again in a “second coming.” The idea of a second coming is a pure rationalization of Yeshua’ failure to function in any way as a Messiah, or to fulfill any of the prophecies of the Torah or the Prophets. The idea is purely a Christian invention, with no foundation in the Bible, and created only to explain away why Yeshua did not return in the generation of his followers as the New Testament attests.

Problem: The Bible says that the Messiah would be descended in a direct line from King David. However, if G-d was Yeshua's “father,” is it not somewhat ridiculous to claim that he is descended from King David on his father's side?

Problem: Why do some missionaries insist on distorting the meaning of the words of the prophets in order to substantiate their claims? (An example: The Hebrew term in Isaiah “almah” which means a “young woman” is mistranslated as “virgin.” Honest Christian scholars now acknowledge that this is a pious fraud and now (see the new Protestant “Reviser Standard Version” of the Bible) translate the word correctly. This is but one of many mistranslations or forced translations

Problem: While on the cross Yeshua is quoted as saying, “Forgive them, Father, for they (the Jews) know not what they do.” Why do some Christians insist on persecuting the Jews if Yeshua himself gave instructions to forgive them?

Problem: If his rising from the dead was so crucial to demonstrate who he was, why did this take place in secret and not in the presence of his “thousands” of devotees?

Problem: Yeshua claimed that he did not intend to change the Laws of Moses—”Think not that I have come to abolish the Law (Torah) and the Prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven” (Matthew 5). Later on, the New Testament attests that he himself abrogated some of the laws, while his followe
rs eventually abolished or changed nearly all of them. Personally I believe the New Testament to be less than credible in describing events where Yeshua supposedly broke the Law or changed the Law.

Problem: However, the Torah itself clearly states in many places that its laws are eternal, never to be abolished. And even the Christians acknowledge that the Jewish Bible is the word of G-d. If the Torah is eternal and Yeshua himself claims to have no intention of abolishing or changing it, why do the Christians celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday when G-d clearly calls the Saturday-Sabbath an Eternal Covenant? Why do Christians eat pig when the Torah forbids it? What reason can Christians give for not celebrating Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur which are clearly spelled out in the Torah? This same argument applies to hundreds of other Torah laws that are ignored by Christians.

On the other hand, Christmas and Easter are not mentioned in either the Jewish Bible or the Christian “New Testament”— these festivals are pagan in origin, adapted for Christian use. But Pesach, Sukkos and Shavuos are clearly spoken of in the Bible. On top of which, Yeshua nowhere requests that the Biblical festivals no longer be observed.

Problem: Christians teach the philosophy of “turning the other cheek” and “loving your enemy.” Do you know of any Christian nations that live by this impractical ethic, or even take it seriously?

Problem: The many Christian statements about G-d being “Love” have been borrowed from the Jewish Bible and the Jewish religion. Among many such quotations from our Torah are: “Love thy neighbor as thyself”; “Love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt”; “And you shall love the L-rd thy G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

If G-d is “Love,” how can Christians explain the silence and indifference of the Church and most Christian nations while six million Jews were being gassed and burned by the Germans? Why the stone-like silence during the Six Day War? Where was Christian love during the Spanish Inquisition and the hundreds of pogroms inspired by priests and monks?

Problem: Judaism believes that G-d is eternal, above and beyond time. G-d cannot be born, He cannot die, He cannot suffer, He can not “become flesh,” nor can He be divided into sections (“Father, Son, and Holy Ghost”). These are pagan notions. Certainly no “G-d” or “Son of G-d” could have called out on the cross, as Yeshua is supposed to have said, “My G-d, my G-d, why have you abandoned me?” If he was G-d's son, he would at least have said, “My father. . .”

Problem: If Yeshua was really the Messiah, why does the New Testament admit that all the rabbis of the time, without one exception, rejected his claim? Why was there not one man of learning, nor one prominent leader who accepted him?

Problem: If Yeshua was the Messiah, why did the overwhelming majority of his own people, the Jews living at that time, reject him? Why did his followers consist of a handful of people, almost all of whom were poorly educated? Why did his own family turn against him?

Problem: Who was in a position to judge if he was or was not the Messiah—his own people, who anxiously awaited the arrival of the Messiah, or pagan peoples who had no understanding of what the concept really meant?

Problem: Yeshua commanded his disciples to preach to the Jews only and not to the gentiles (Matthew 10), yet his disciples disobeyed him and did just the opposite. He clearly thought of himself as the Messiah of the Jews and of no one else. Yet, he was accepted by foreign nations and not by the Jews. Why?

Problem: If G-d has “rejected” the Jews for not “accepting Yeshua” as Christians claim, why have the Jewish People managed to survive 2,000 years of Christian persecution? How do Christians explain the miracle of Jewish survival? Why has G-d restored the city of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel to His “rejected” people?

How do they explain the fact that the Jewish people has re-established its national life in its ancient homeland, and is in possession of the City of Jerusalem? These are living historic facts without parallel.

Must not the Christians now acknowledge that the re-emergence of a Jewish State is indeed an unfolding and realization of Bible prophecy in our day? Does this not demonstrate that the many Biblical prophecies that speak of the return of the Jew to his land refer to the Jews and not to anyone else? (The Christians often refer to themselves as the “real Jews”—the “New Israel,” i.e. G-d chose them because the Jews rejected Yeshua.)

Isn't this theological “slap in the face” the reason for the Pope's refusal to recognize Israel, and for Christian silence during the Six Day War?

Problem: The Prophets contain many prophecies concerning the end of days and the time of the Messiah that have not yet taken place. These will all take place when the Messiah comes.

Why do we need a Messiah in the first place? In order to teach the Torah to the world and to establish “The Kingdom of G-d on Earth.” If the Christians have done away with the laws of the Torah, if they no longer regard the Torah as valid, what is left to teach mankind? Nowhere does the Torah suggest that it is to be abolished by the Messiah. On the contrary, the Torah is eternal, and the purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all of the Jewish people will observe the Torah and all of mankind will acknowledge its truths.

Problem: Nowhere does the Torah state that someone else's death can bring forgiveness to a person's sins. On the contrary, each man will be punished for his sins, and each man must repent for his sins alone. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die”; “Sons will not be punished for the sins of their fathers.” The idea that someone else's death 1,900 years ago can somehow bring forgiveness from G-d for my sins is absurd and unfounded. Each person must return to G-d, each sinner must change his own ways and seek G-d's forgiveness.

Jews firmly believe that the Messiah will come. I, like the Jewish people, believe that man will not self-destruct, that we will not disappear in a gigantic atomic blast. Man is basically good, and G-d's Kingdom will be established. However, it is not enough to believe in G-d. Faith alone is not adequate—G-d demands deeds and action. G-d's revelation on Mount Sinai demands obedience to the 613 commandments spelled out in the written and unwritten Torah. G-d wants discipline, loyalty, and practice; not pious statements and magical formulas. Jews wait for the day when “G-d will be King over all the earth and on that day He will be One and His name One” (Zechariah 14:9).

Maimonides put Jewish belief into words—and I firmly stand by these words, “I firmly believe, in complete faith, in the coming of the Messiah, and although he may tarry, I daily wait for his coming.” Such is my stance as well. Indeed, the Messiah is coming … we can almost hear his footsteps. Will it be Yeshua?

Source: http://messianicprophecy.netfirms.com/was_jes….cts.htm

October 12, 2009 at 1:19 pm#149863

kerwin

Participant

To All,

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

Problem: The Jewish Messiah is to be a human being born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a g-d, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth, as Christianity claims.

This is a flawed argument as portrayed since not all Christians believe the Anointed one is a god, demigod, or the like. It would be correct to state some Christians rather than all Christians.

There is no evidence that the Messiah is not a man born of supernatural birth in scripture which shows that once again your sources are short on logical arguments.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Someone is ignorant of history. There were many false Messiah’s that were also around at the time of Jesus. Should I name them?

Here is what Wikipedia states.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

The Jewish Bible says that the Messiah will redeem Israel.

Is your source a real Jew? I ask because they seem blatantly ignorant of that fact that God commands his people “to be righteous as he is righteous” and that is what redeem means.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

The Prophets in the Bible foretold (Isaiah 45) that when the Messiah comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge and worship the one true G-d.

Jesus unites the people of all nations to acknowledge God in his name.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

When the true Messiah comes, his influence will extend over all peoples who will worship G-d at the Temple in Jerusalem.

Which Messiah is that, Messiah Son of David or Messiah Son of Joseph? Perhaps you Jews do not understand Jewish theology?

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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During the time of the Messiah a new spirit will rule the world, and man will cease committing sins and crimes;

The Holy Spirit.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

The true Messiah is to reign as King of the Jews.

I would just state he is the King of God’s people no matter their nationality, I.E. I have been made Lord of everything in heaven and on earth.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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During the time of the Messiah, prophecy will return to the Jewish people and the presence of G-d will dwell amongst us

The Holy Spirit.

Zechariah 13:4-6(NIV) reads:

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On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision. He will not put on a prophet's garment of hair in order to deceive. He will say, 'I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth. If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body ?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

That sounds like it is speaking of the age of the Christians when prophecy is banned from the land.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

One of the Messiah's major tasks is to bring peace to the entire world. In the time of the Messiah, there are to be no more wars, and the manufacture of arms will cease.

It is still the age of the Anointed One.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

The New Testament itself claims that the prophecies concerning the Messiah were to be realized in Yeshua's own generation.

That depends on the definition one chooses for “genea”. “genea” also is defined as race/ethnic group. I still see Jews.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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Nowhere does the Jewish Bible teach the Messiah would come once, be killed, and be return once, be killed, and return again in a “second coming.”

You found a Jew that does not know of Messiah, Son of Joseph who is also called the suffering servant.

Unknown source at truthnet.org on October 12, 2009

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Today, the Jews every year commemorate the wait for Elijah at the Passover Seder meal; he is welcomed in every Jewish home with a large goblet of wine placed in the middle of the festive table for him. According to some traditions there is a 45 day period following the death of Messiah Ben Joseph, before and the appearance of Messiah Ben David, its during this period, Elijah the forerunner of the Messiah makes his appearance.

Here is my source from truth.net.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrot
e:

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The Bible says that the Messiah would be descended in a direct line from King David. However, if G-d was Yeshua's “father,” is it not somewhat ridiculous to claim that he is descended from King David on his father's side?

What are these Jews calling a direct line? Are they saying women cannot inherit?

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

Why do some missionaries insist on distorting the meaning of the words of the prophets in order to substantiate their claims? (An example: The Hebrew term in Isaiah “almah” which means a “young woman” is mistranslated as “virgin.”

That is because “almah” can be defined “virgin”

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

While on the cross Yeshua is quoted as saying, “Forgive them, Father, for they (the Jews) know not what they do.” Why do some Christians insist on persecuting the Jews if Yeshua himself gave instructions to forgive them?

Good question. I would say these Christians are some of the rebellious among the people.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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If his rising from the dead was so crucial to demonstrate who he was, why did this take place in secret and not in the presence of his “thousands” of devotees?

For all I know he may have only had the hundreds of devotees that did witness his return.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

Yeshua claimed that he did not intend to change the Laws of Moses—”Think not that I have come to abolish the Law (Torah) and the Prophets

He did not change the law unless you are speaking of abolishing the sacrifices which was foretold in the book of Daniel.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

However, the Torah itself clearly states in many places that its laws are eternal, never to be abolished.

I do not know if that is what is written since a time is foretold when God states he will make a new covenant. Still, A Hebrew is still a Hebrew and the Law applies to them.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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This is an illegitimate argument since Jews celebrate holidays not mentioned in scripture.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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Christians teach the philosophy of “turning the other cheek” and “loving your enemy.” Do you know of any Christian nations that live by this impractical ethic, or even take it seriously?

It is the same command that already exists in the Law of Moses when God instructs his people not to seek vengeance.

Leviticus 19:18(NIV) reads:

Quote

” 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

I stopped here because your source appears to be ignorant of both Christian and Jewish theology.

October 12, 2009 at 5:55 pm#149883

Participant

Hi GM,
You really should be stronger in your biblical faith and not so easily influenced by unbelievers.

October 12, 2009 at 6:10 pm#149889

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2009,01:19)

To All,

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

Problem: The Jewish Messiah is to be a human being born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a g-d, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth, as Christianity claims.

This is a flawed argument as portrayed since not all Christians believe the Anointed one is a god, demigod, or the like. It would be correct to state some Christians rather than all Christians.

There is no evidence that the Messiah is not a man born of supernatural birth in scripture which shows that once again your sources are short on logical arguments.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Someone is ignorant of history. There were many false Messiah’s that were also around at the time of Jesus. Should I name them?

Here is what Wikipedia states.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

The Jewish Bible says that the Messiah will redeem Israel.

Is your source a real Jew? I ask because they seem blatantly ignorant of that fact that God commands his people “to be righteous as he is righteous” and that is what redeem means.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

Quote

The Prophets in the Bible foretold (Isaiah 45) that when the Messiah comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge and worship the one true G-d.

Jesus unites the people of all nations to acknowledge God in his name.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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When the true Messiah comes, his influence will extend over all peoples who will worship G-d at the Temple in Jerusalem.

Which Messiah is that, Messiah Son of David or Messiah Son of Joseph? Perhaps you Jews do not understand Jewish theology?

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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During the time of the Messiah a new spirit will rule the world, and man will cease committing sins and crimes;

The Holy Spirit.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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The true Messiah is to reign as King of the Jews.

I would just state he is the King of God’s people no matter their nationality, I.E. I have been made Lord of everything in heaven and on earth.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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During the time of the Messiah, prophecy will return to the Jewish people and the presence of G-d will dwell amongst us

The Holy Spirit.

Zechariah 13:4-6(NIV) reads:

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That sounds like it is speaking of the age of the Christians when prophecy is banned from the land.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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One of the Messiah's major tasks is to bring peace to the entire world. In the time of the Messiah, there are to be no more wars, and the manufacture of arms will cease.

It is still the age of the Anointed One.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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The New Testament itself claims that the prophecies concerning the Messiah were to be realized in Yeshua's own generation.

That depends on the definition one chooses for “genea”. “genea” also is defined as race/ethnic group. I still see Jews.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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Nowhere does the Jewish Bible teach the Messiah would come once, be killed, and be return once, be killed, and return again in a “second coming.”

You found a Jew that does not know of Messiah, Son of Joseph who is also called the suffering servant.

Unknown source at truthnet.org on October 12, 2009

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Here is my source from truth.net.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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What are these Jews calling a direct line? Are they saying women cannot inherit?

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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That is because “almah” can be defined “virgin”

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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Good question. I would say these Christians are some of the rebellious among the people.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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If his rising from the dead was so crucial to demonstrate who he was, why did this take place in secret and not in the presence of his “thousands” of devotees?

For all I know he may have only had the hundreds of devotees that did witness his return.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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Yeshua claimed that he did not intend to change the Laws of Moses—”Think not that I have come to abolish the Law (Torah) and the Prophets

He did not change the law unless you are speaking of abolishing the sacrifices which was foretold in the book of Daniel.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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However, the Torah itself clearly states in many places that its laws are eternal, never to be abolished.

I do not know if that is what is written since a time is foretold when God states he will make a new covenant. Still, A Hebrew is still a Hebrew and the Law applies to them.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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This is an illegitimate argument since Jews celebrate holidays not mentioned in scripture.

Unknown Source from messianicprophecy.netfirms.com as posted by gollamudi wrote:

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Christians teach the philosophy of “turning the other cheek” and “loving your enemy.” Do you know of any Christian nations that live by this impractical ethic, or even take it seriously?

It is the same command that already exists in the Law of Moses when God instructs his people not to seek vengeance.

Leviticus 19:18(NIV) reads:

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” 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

I stopped here because your source appears to be ignorant of both Christian and Jewish theology.

Good Post, some Jew's are like that. What tey want to beleve that they believe. Nobody can tell them what the truth is. I have to compare them with the Catholics.
Peace and Love Irene

October 12, 2009 at 7:02 pm#149901

Participant

This comment after I save your bacon in a debate that you were clearly losing?

If your heresy is true, why do you need a Catholic to come to your defense?

October 12, 2009 at 7:04 pm#149902

Participant

Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,20:06)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 12 2009,18:46)

Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,11:04)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 12 2009,10:29)

Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,09:52)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2009,08:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,07:48)

Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.

On earth as it is in heaven

Then Georg's mother, God rest her soul, was an uninformed Catholic. This has never been Catholic sentiment.

Mary did not have other children. The Bible doesn't say so. So there was no need for this type of comment anyway.

These were not sons of Mary.

Read and learn:

The Protoevangelium of James (c. 1st century)

The Birth of Mary the Holy Mother of God, and Very Glorious Mother of Jesus Christ.

1. In the records of the twelve tribes of Israel was Joachim, a man rich exceedingly; and he brought his offerings double, saying: There shall be of my superabundance to all the people, and there shall be the offering for my forgiveness to the Lord for a propitiation for me. For the great day of the Lord was at hand, and the sons of Israel were bringing their offerings. And there stood over against him Rubim, saying: It is not meet for you first to bring your offerings, because you have not made seed in Israel. And Joachim was exceedingly grieved, and went away to the registers of the twelve tribes of the people, saying: I shall see the registers of the twelve tribes of Israel, as to whether I alone have not made seed in Israel. And he searched, and found that all the righteous had raised up seed in Israel. And he called to mind the patriarch Abraham, that in the last day God gave him a son Isaac. And Joachim was exceedingly grieved, and did not come into the presence of his wife; but he retired to the desert, and there pitched his tent, and fasted forty days and forty nights, saying in himself: I will not go down either for food or for drink until the Lord my God shall look upon me, and prayer shall be my food and drink.

2. And his wife Anna mourned in two mournings, and lamented in two lamentations, saying: I shall bewail my widowhood; I shall bewail my childlessness. And the great day of the Lord was at hand; and Judith her maid-servant said: How long do you humiliate your soul? Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand, and it is unlawful for you to mourn. But take this head-band, which the woman that made it gave to me; for it is not proper that I should wear it, because I am a maid-servant, and it has a royal appearance. And Anna said: Depart from me; for I have not done such things, and the Lord has brought me very low. I fear that some wicked person has given it to you, and you have come to make me a sharer in your sin. And Judith said: Why should I curse you, seeing that the Lord has shut your womb, so as not to give you fruit in Israel? And Anna was grieved exceedingly, and put off her garments of mourning, and cleaned her head, and put on her wedding garments, and about the ninth hour went down to the garden to walk. And she saw a laurel, and sat under it, and prayed to the Lord, saying: O God of our fathers, bless me and hear my prayer, as You blessed the womb of Sarah, and gave her a son Isaac.

3. And gazing towards the heaven, she saw a sparrow's nest in the laurel, Tobit 2:10 and made a lamentation in herself, saying: Alas! Who begot me? And what womb produced me? Because I have become a curse in the presence of the sons of Israel, and I have been reproached, and they have driven me in derision out of the temple of the Lord. Alas! To what have I been likened? I am not like the fowls of the heaven, because even the fowls of the heaven are productive before You, O Lord. Alas! To what have I been likened? I am not like the beasts of the earth, because even the beasts of the earth are productive before You, OLord. Alas! To what have I been likened? I am not like these waters, because even these waters are productive before You, O Lord. Alas! To what have I been likened? I am not like this earth, because even the earth brings forth its fruits in season, and blesses You, O Lord.

4. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by, saying: Anna, Anna, the Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive, and shall bring forth; and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world. And Anna said: As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God; and it shall minister to Him in holy things all the days of its life. 1 Samuel 1:11 And, behold, two angels came, saying to her: Behold, Joach
im your husband is coming with his flocks. For an angel of the Lord went down to him, saying: Joachim, Joachim, the Lord God has heard your prayer. Go down hence; for, behold, your wife Anna shall conceive. And Joachim went down and called his shepherds, saying: Bring me hither ten she-lambs without spot or blemish, and they shall be for the Lord my God; and bring me twelve tender calves, and they shall be for the priests and the elders; and a hundred goats for all the people. And, behold, Joachim came with his flocks; and Anna stood by the gate, and saw Joachim coming, and she ran and hung upon his neck, saying: Now I know that the Lord God has blessed me exceedingly; for, behold the widow no longer a widow, and I the childless shall conceive. And Joachim rested the first day in his house.

5. And on the following day he brought his offerings, saying in himself: If the Lord God has been rendered gracious to me, the plate on the priest's forehead will make it manifest to me. And Joachim brought his offerings, and observed attentively the priest's plate when he went up to the altar of the Lord, and he saw no sin in himself. And Joachim said: Now I know that the Lord has been gracious unto me, and has remitted all my sins. And he went down from the temple of the Lord justified, and departed to his own house. And her months were fulfilled, and in the ninth month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: What have I brought forth? And she said: A girl. And said Anna: My soul has been magnified this day. And she laid her down. And the days having been fulfilled, Anna was purified, and gave the breast to the child, and called her name Mary.

6. And the child grew strong day by day; and when she was six months old, her mother set her on the ground to try whether she could stand, and she walked seven steps and came into her bosom; and she snatched her up, saying: As theLord my God lives, you shall not walk on this earth until I bring you into the temple of the Lord. And she made a sanctuary in her bed-chamber, and allowed nothing common or unclean to pass through her. And she called the undefiled daughters of the Hebrews, and they led her astray. And when she was a year old, Joachim made a great feast, and invited the priests, and the scribes, and the elders, and all the people of Israel. And Joachim brought the child to the priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever. And her mother snatched her up, and took her into the sanctuary of her bed-chamber, and gave her the breast. And Anna made a song to the Lord God, saying: I will sing a song to the Lord my God, for He has looked upon me, and has taken away the reproach of mine enemies; and the Lord has given the fruit of His righteousness, singular in its kind, and richly endowed before Him. Who will tell the sons of Rubim that Anna gives suck? Hear, hear, you twelve tribes of Israel, that Anna gives suck. And she laid her to rest in the bed-chamber of her sanctuary, and went out and ministered unto them. And when the supper was ended, they went down rejoicing, and glorifying the God of Israel.

7. And her months were added to the child. And the child was two years old, and Joachim said: Let us take her up to the temple of the Lord, that we may pay the vow that we have vowed, lest perchance the Lord send to us, and our offering be not received. And Anna said: Let us wait for the third year, in order that the child may not seek for father or mother. And Joachim said: So let us wait. And the child was three years old, and Joachim said: Invite the daughters of the Hebrews that are undefiled, and let them take each a lamp, and let them stand with the lamps burning, that the child may not turn back, and her heart be captivated from the temple of the Lord. And they did so until they went up into the temple of the Lord. And the priest received her, and kissed her, and blessed her, saying: The Lord has magnified your name in all generations. In you, on the last of the days, the Lord will manifest His redemption to the sons of Israel. And he set her down upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord God sent grace upon her; and she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her.

8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto you, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judæa, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.

9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord your God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; Numbers 16:31-33 how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in your house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received you from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave you in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to you. The Lord will protect you.

10. And there was a council of the priests, saying: Let us make a veil for the temple of the Lord. And the priest said: Call to me the undefiled virgins of the family of David. And the officers went away, and sought, and found seven virgins. And the priest remembered the child Mary, that she was of the family of David, and undefiled before God. And the officers went away and brought her. And they brought them into the temple of the Lord. And the priest said: Choose for me by lot who shall spin the gold, and the white, and the fine linen, and the silk, and the blue, and the scarlet, and the true purple. Exodus 25:4 And the true purple and the scarlet fell to the lot of Mary, and she took them, and went away to her house. And at that time Zacharias was dumb, and Samuel was in his place until the time that Zacharias spoke. And Mary took the scarlet, and span it.

11. And she took the pitcher, and went out to fill it with water. And, behold, a voice saying: Hail, you who hast received grace; the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women! Luke 1:28 And she looked round, on the right hand and on the left, to see whence this voice came. And she went away, trembling, to her house, and put down the pitcher; an
d taking the purple, she sat down on her seat, and drew it out. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood before her, saying: Fear not, Mary; for you have found grace before the Lord of all, and you shall conceive, according to His word. And she hearing, reasoned with herself, saying: Shall I conceive by the Lord, the living God? And shall I bring forth as every woman brings forth? And the angel of the Lord said: Not so, Mary; for the power of the Lord shall overshadow you: wherefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of the Most High. And you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. And Mary said: Behold, the servant of the Lord before His face: let it be unto me according to your word.

12. And she made the purple and the scarlet, and took them to the priest. And the priest blessed her, and said: Mary, the Lord God has magnified your name, and you shall be blessed in all the generations of the earth. And Mary, with great joy, went away to Elizabeth her kinswoman, Luke 1:39-40 and knocked at the door. And when Elizabeth heard her, she threw away the scarlet, and ran to the door, and opened it; and seeing Mary, she blessed her, and said: Whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, behold, that which is in me leaped and blessed you. Luke 1:34, 44 But Mary had forgotten the mysteries of which the archangel Gabriel had spoken, and gazed up into heaven, and said: Who am I, O Lord, that all the generations of the earth should bless me? Luke 1:48 And she remained three months with Elizabeth; and day by day she grew bigger. And Mary being afraid, went away to her own house, and hid herself from the sons of Israel. And she was sixteen years old when these mysteries happened.

13. And she was in her sixth month; and, behold, Joseph came back from his building, and, entering into his house, he discovered that she was big with child. And he smote his face, and threw himself on the ground upon the sackcloth, and wept bitterly, saying: With what face shall I look upon the Lord my God? And what prayer shall I make about this maiden? Because I received her a virgin out of the temple of the Lord, and I have not watched over her. Who is it that has hunted me down? Who has done this evil thing in my house, and defiled the virgin? Has not the history of Adam been repeated in me? For just as Adam was in the hour of his singing praise, and the serpent came, and found Eve alone, and completely deceived her, so it has happened to me also. And Joseph stood up from the sackcloth, and called Mary, and said to her: O you who hast been cared for by God, why have you done this and forgotten the Lord your God? Why have you brought low your soul, you that wast brought up in the holy of holies, and that received food from the hand of an angel? And she wept bitterly, saying: I am innocent, and have known no man. And Joseph said to her: Whence then is that which is in your womb? And she said: As the Lord my God lives, I do not know whence it is to me.

14. And Joseph was greatly afraid, and retired from her, and considered what he should do in regard to her. Matthew 1:19 And Joseph said: If I conceal her sin, I find myself fighting against the law of the Lord; and if I expose her to the sons of Israel, I am afraid lest that which is in her be from an angel, and I shall be found giving up innocent blood to the doom of death. What then shall I do with her? I will put her away from me secretly. And night came upon him; and, behold, an angel of the Lord appears to him in a dream, saying: Be not afraid for this maiden, for that which is in her is of the Holy Spirit; and she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins. Matthew 1:20 And Joseph arose from sleep, and glorified the God of Israel, who had given him this grace; and he kept her.

15. And Annas the scribe came to him, and said: Why have you not appeared in our assembly? And Joseph said to him: Because I was weary from my journey, and rested the first day. And he turned, and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest, and said to him: Joseph, whom you vouched for, has committed a grievous crime. And the priest said: How so? And he said: He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord, and has married her by stealth, and has not revealed it to the sons of Israel. And the priest answering, said: Has Joseph done this? Then said Annas the scribe: Send officers, and you will find the virgin with child. And the officers went away, and found it as he had said; and they brought her along with Joseph to the tribunal. And the priest said: Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low, and forgotten the Lord your God? You that wast reared in the holy of holies, and that received food from the hand of an angel, and heard the hymns, and danced before Him, why have you done this? And she wept bitterly, saying: As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before Him, and know not a man. And the priest said to Joseph: Why have you done this? And Joseph said: As the Lord lives, I am pure concerning her. Then said the priest: Bear not false witness, but speak the truth. You have married her by stealth, and hast not revealed it to the sons of Israel, and hast not bowed your head under the strong hand, that your seed might be blessed. And Joseph was silent.

16. And the priest said: Give up the virgin whom you received out of the temple of the Lord. And Joseph burst into tears. And the priest said: I will give you to drink of the water of the ordeal of the Lord, and He shall make manifest your sins in your eyes. And the priest took the water, and gave Joseph to drink and sent him away to the hill-country; and he returned unhurt. And he gave to Mary also to drink, and sent her away to the hill-country; and she returned unhurt. And all the people wondered that sin did not appear in them. And the priest said: If the Lord God has not made manifest your sins, neither do I judge you. And he sent them away. And Joseph took Mary, and went away to his own house, rejoicing and glorifying the God of Israel.

17. And there was an order from the Emperor Augustus, that all in Bethlehem of Judæa should be enrolled. Luke 2:1 And Joseph said: I shall enrol my sons, but what shall I do with this maiden? How shall I enrol her? As my wife? I am ashamed. As my daughter then? But all the sons of Israel know that she is not my daughter. The day of the Lord shall itself bring it to pass as the Lord will. And he saddled the ass, and set her upon it; and his son led it, and Joseph followed. And when they had come within three miles, Joseph turned and saw her sorrowful; and he said to himself: Likely that which is in her distresses her. And again Joseph turned and saw her laughing. And he said to her: Mary, how is it that I see in your face at one time laughter, at another sorrow? And Mary said to Joseph: Because I see two peoples with my eyes; the one weeping and lamenting, and the other rejoicing and exulting. And they came into the middle of the road, andMary said to him: Take me down from off the ass, for that which is in me presses to come forth. And he took her down from off the ass, and said to her: Whither shall I lead you, and cover your disgrace? For the place is desert.

18. And he found a cave there, and led her into it; and leaving his two sons beside her, he went out to seek a widwife in the district of Bethlehem.

And I Joseph was walking, and was not walking; and I looked up into the sky, and saw the sky astonished; and I looked up to the pole of the heavens, and saw it standing, and the birds of the air keeping still. And I looked down upon the earth, and saw atrough lying, and work-people reclining: and their hands were in the trough. And those that were eating did not eat, and those that were rising did not carry it up, and those that were conveying anything to their mouths did not convey it; but the faces of all were looking upwards. And I saw the sheep walking, and the sheep stood still;
and the shepherdraised his hand to strike them, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the current of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids resting on the water and not drinking, and all things in a moment were driven from their course.

19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither are you going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Are you of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not your wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit.

And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because my eyes have seen strange things— because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His motherMary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to you: a virgin has brought forth— a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God lives, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show yourself; for no small controversy has arisen about you. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for You know, O Lord, that in Your name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Your hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord has heard you. Put your hand to the infant, and carry it, and you will have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things you have seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.

21. And, behold, Joseph was ready to go into Judæa. And there was a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judæa, for Magi came, saying: Where is he that is born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and have come to worship him. And when Herod heard, he was much disturbed, and sent officers to the Magi. And he sent for the priests, and examined them, saying: How is it written about the Christ? Where is He to be born? And they said: In Bethlehem of Judæa, for so it is written. And he sent them away. And he examined the Magi, saying to them: What sign have you seen in reference to the king that has been born? And the Magi said: We have seen a star of great size shining among these stars, and obscuring their light, so that the stars did not appear; and we thus knew that a king has been born to Israel, and we have come to worship him. And Herod said: Go and seek him; and if you find him, let me know, in order that I also may go and worship him. And the Magi went out. And, behold, the star which they had seen in the east went before them until they came to the cave, and it stood over the top of the cave. And the Magi saw the infant with His mother Mary; and they brought forth from their bag gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned by the angel not to go into Judæa, they went into their own country by another road.

22. And when Herod knew that he had been mocked by the Magi, in a rage he sent murderers, saying to them: Slay the children from two years old and under. And Mary, having heard that the children were being killed, was afraid, and took the infant and swaddled Him, and put Him into an ox-stall. And Elizabeth, having heard that they were searching for John, took him and went up into the hill-country, and kept looking where to conceal him. And there was no place of concealment. And Elizabeth, groaning with a loud voice, says: O mountain of God, receive mother and child. And immediately the mountain was cleft, and received her. And a light shone about them, for an angel of the Lord was with them, watching over them.

23. And Herod searched for John, and sent officers to Zacharias, saying: Where have you hid your son? And he, answering, said to them: I am the servant of God in holy things, and I sit constantly in the temple of the Lord: I do not know where my son is. And the officers went away, and reported all these things to Herod. And Herod was enraged, and said: His son is destined to be king over Israel. And he sent to him again, saying: Tell the truth; where is your son? For you know that your life is in my hand. And Zacharias said: I am God's martyr, if you shed my blood; for the Lord will receive my spirit, because you shed innocent blood at the vestibule of the temple of the Lord. And Zacharias was murdered about daybreak. And the sons of Israel did not know that he had been murdered.

24. But at the hour of the salutation the priests went away, and Zacharias did not come forth to meet them with a blessing, according to his custom. And the priests stood waiting for Zacharias to salute him at the prayer, and to glorify the Most High. And he still delaying, they were all afraid. But one of them ventured to go in, and he saw clotted blood beside the altar; and he heard a voice saying: Zacharias has been murdered, and his blood shall not be wiped up until his avenger come. And hearing this saying, he was afraid, and went out and told it to the priests. And they ventured in, and saw what had happened; and the fretwork of the temple made a wailing noise, and they rent their clothes from the top even to the bottom. And they found not his body, but they found his blood turned into stone. And they were afraid, and went out and reported to the people that Zacharias had been murdered. And all the tribes of the people heard, and mourned, and lamented for him three days and three nights. And after the three days, the priests consulted as to whom they should put in his place; and the lot fell upon Simeon. For it was he who had been warned by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death until he should see the Christ in the flesh.

And I James that wrote this history in Jerusalem, a commotion having arisen when Herod died, withdrew myself to the wilderness until the commotion in Jerusalem ceased, glorifying the Lord God, who had given me the gift and the wisdom to write this history. And grace shall be with them that fear our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory to ages of ages. Amen.

October 12, 2009 at 7:04 pm#149903

Participant

Hi CA,
How important is it to you to win debates while your soul is in the hands of the blighted minds of Rome?

October 12, 2009 at 7:06 pm#149904

Participant

Hi CA,
Is this book in the canon?
Does it have the imprimatur and nihil obstat of your masters?
If not how can you offer it in defense of anything and avoid the wrath of those who control your life?

October 12, 2009 at 7:44 pm#149910

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 13 2009,07:06)

Hi CA,
Is this book in the canon?
Does it have the imprimatur and nihil obstat of your masters?
If not how can you offer it in defense of anything and avoid the wrath of those who control your life?

Nick,

You don't have any canon that you can point to with authority without leaning on US to substantiate it.

Are you trying out for stand up comedy soon or something?

October 12, 2009 at 7:57 pm#149921