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Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 09 2009,21:06) Requirements of Jewish Messiah: The Hebrew word “moshiach” means annointed one. There have been many moshiachs throughout Jewish history. Every Jewish king and priest was a moshiach. There was even a non-Jewish moshiach (King Cyrus who permitted the rebuilding of the Temple). The Jewish Messiah will be a man and not a demi-god. He will come once and only once there will be no “second coming”. The belief in an eventual moshiach (Moshiach ben David – Moshiach, son of David) who will be the last king and ruler of Israel is an ancient belief. There is a belief that a potential moshiach is born in every generation. Most scholars believe that it is the conduct of humankind that will determine when the moshiach will arrive.
Who Will the Moshiach Be?
(1) He must be Jewish (Deuteronomy 17:15; Numbers 24:17);
(2) He must be descended from David through Judah (Genesis 49:10) and Solomon (I Chronicles 22:9-10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Hosea 3:4-5);
(3) He will be well-versed in halachah and will observe the mitzvot (Isaiah 11:2);
(4) He will be the perfect judge able to see beyond words and appearances (Isaiah 11:2-3);
(5) He will be able to vanquish evil at a word (Isaiah 11:4);
(6) He will be the king of an independent and recognized Israel (Isaiah 11:10);What Will Happen When the Moshiach Arrives
(1) Elijah will proceeded the Moshiach and announce his arrival (Malachi 3:23-24)
(2) With the coming of the Messiah will be the physical ingathering of Judah from the four corners of the earth (Isaiah 11:12, 27:12-13, 43:5-6; Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3; Zechariah 10:6; Ezekiel 37:21-22;
(3) There will be the reestablishment of the Holy Temple (Micah 4:1; Ezekiel 37:26-28; Isaiah 33:20);
(4) There will be world-wide peace (Isaiah 2:4, 11:6; Micah 4:3; Ezekiel 39:9);
(5) In the Messianic age the entire world will believe in G-d (Isaiah 2:4, 11:9, 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9; Jeremiah 31:33; Zechariah 8:3, 14:9,16;
(6) The Jews will be sought for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23);
(7) Death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) and the dead will be ressurected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13);
(8) The enemy dead will be buried (Ezekiel 39:12);
(9) The Nations will help the Jews materially (Isaiah 60:5,10-12, 61:6);
(10) Each Tribe of Israel will receive its inheritance (Ezekiel 47:13-14);
(11) Eternal joy and gladness will characterize the Jewish Nation (Isaiah 51:11);
(12) The Egyptian River will run dry (Isaiah 11:15);
(13) Trees will yield new fruit monthly in Israel (Ezekiel 47:12);
(14) The nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:12);
(15) Israel will be perfect in the practice of Torah (Deuteronomy 30:6; Jeremiah 31:31-33);
(16) All of Israel will be prophets (Joel 3:1-2);
(17) The Messiah will be universally recognized (Isaiah 11:10)WHY JESUS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE JEWISH MESSIAH
A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that, although Jesus was Jewish, he did not fulfill any of the other criteria. An examination of the contradictory accounts of Jesus' genealogy demonstrates a number of difficulties with the fulfillment of the second criterion. Specifically, the New Testament claims that Jesus did not have a physical father. The Jewish Scriptures, however, clearly state that a person's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one's physical father (Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17). Therefore, Jesus cannot possibly be a descendent of the tribe of Judah nor of King David and King Solomon.
There are even further problems with any attempts to use the Jewish Scriptures to prove Jesus' genealogy through Joseph, the husband of Mary (Jesus' mother). For the New Testament claims that Joseph was a descendent of King Jeconiah, who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendent “sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah” (Jeremiah 22:30). Joseph's genealogy, even if it were transmittable to Jesus, would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.
Finally, there is the problem of the contradictory accounts of Jesus' genealogy in Matthew, Chapter 1 and Luke, Chapter 3. The common Christian explanation of this contradiction claims that Luke's genealogy is that of Jesus' mother, Mary. However, this is unfounded, even according to the Greek original. In addition, it has already been established that genealogy is transferred solely through the father, making this attempted explanation completely irrelevant. Even if one could trace one's genealogy through one's mother, there would be the additional problem that Luke 3:31 lists Mary as a descendent of David through Nathan, Solomon's brother, and not through Solomon himself as required according to the prophesy in I Chronicles 22:10 of the Jewish Bible.
The third, fourth, fifth and sixth criteria have obviously not been fulfilled — neither during Jesus' time nor since. Any Christian claims that these final criteria will be fulfilled in a “Second Coming” are irrelevant because the concept of the Messiah coming twice has no scriptural basis.
To summarize, we cannot know that someone is the Messiah until he fulfills all of the above criteria.
The Christian understanding of the Messiah and Jesus differs greatly from the Jewish biblical view. These differences developed as a result of the Church's influence during the time of the Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea that issued the Nicene Creed in 325 CE.
The Messiah was never meant to be an object of worship. His primary mission and accomplishment is to bring world peace and to fill the world with the knowledge and awareness of one G-d.
1 Some form of the Hebrew word “Moshiach — ” is used over 150 times in the Jewish Bible. Christians consistently translate this word as anointed, except in the ninth chapter of Daniel. In this chapter missionaries deviate from this and other correct translations in an attempt to prove that the Messiah came before the destruction of the Second Temple. Rather than speaking about “the Messiah,” when read in context and with a correct translation this chapter clearly speaks about two different “anointed” subjects hundreds of years apart: a) The first is the anointed King Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) who granted permission to the Jews to return and build the Second Temple 52 years “7 weeks of years” after the destruction of the First Temple; b) The second is the anointed priesthood (Leviticus 4:3) that was terminated 434 years “62 weeks of years” later.
Let's put some things into perspective, shall we?Gen. 49:10; Mic. 5:2 – a kingdom and ruler of Israel shall come from Judah – Mattt. 1:1-2, Luke 3:23,33 – Jesus is from the line of Judah.
Deut. 18:18 – He will be raised up as a prophet – Matt. 21:11, Luke 7:16; John 6:14; 7:40 – Jesus is identified as this prophet.
Psalm 2:6 – He will be a King – Matt. 21:5; John 18:36-37 – Jesus is this King.
Psalm 2:7 – you are my Son, today I have begotten you – Matt. 3:17; Acts 13:33 – God the Father said this about Jesus the Son.
Psalm 69:4; Isaiah 49:7 – He will be hated without a cause – John 15:25 – Jesus was hated without a cause.
Psalm 69:9 – zeal for thy house has consumed me – John 2:16-17 – zeal consumed Jesus as He drove out the traders.
Psalm 78:2 – He will speak in parables – Matt. 13:34-35 – Jesus spoke in parables.
Psalm 110:1; Jer. 23:6 – He will be called Lord – Matt. 22:43-45; Luke 2:11; Heb. 1:10 –
Jesus is called Lord by the Lord.Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 8:14; 28:16 – He will be the stone rejected by the builders – Acts 4:10-11; Rom. 9:32-33; 1 Peter 2:7-8 – Jesus is the stone rejected by the builders.
Psalm 118:26; Hag.2:7-9; Mal. 3:1 – He will come to the Temple – Matt. 21:12; John 2:13-17 – Jesus so came to the Temple.
Psalm 132:11; Jer. 23:5 – He, the king, shall come from the House of David – Matt. 1:1; Luke 3:23,31 – Jesus is the son of David.
Isaiah 6:9-10 – they hear but do not understand and see but do not perceive – Matt. 13:14-15; John 12:38-41 – this is why Jesus used parables.
Isaiah 7:14 – He will be born of a young virgin woman – Matt. 1:18, 24-25; Luke 1:26-35 – Jesus was born of the young virgin Mary.
Isaiah 9:1 – His ministry will make Galilee glorious – Matt 4:12-17 – Jesus begins His ministry in Galilee.
Isaiah 9:6 – a woman shall bear a son called Emmanuel (“God is with us”) – Luke 1:35 – Jesus is this one, the Son of God.
Isaiah 11:2 – the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him – Matt. 3:16-17 – the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus like a dove.
Isaiah 32:3-4; 35:5-6- His ministry will include miracles curing the blind, deaf, lame and dumb – Matt. 9:32-35 – Jesus so cured the blind, deaf, lame and dumb.
Isaiah 33:22 – He will be a judge – John 5:30 – Jesus is the judge who judges justly.
Isaiah 40:3; Mal. 3:1 – He will be preceded by a messenger – Mat. 3:1-3; 11:10; Luke 1:17; John 1:23 – Jesus was so preceded (by Saint John the Baptist).
Isaiah 53:3 – He will be rejected by His people – John 1:11; 7:5 – Jesus was rejected by His own people.
Isaiah 61:1-2 – the Spirit of the Lord is upon Him – Luke 4:21 – Jesus says that He has fulfilled this prophecy.
Zech. 9:9 – He will triumphantly enter Jerusalem on an ass – Matt. 21:5; Luke 19:35-38; John 12:14-17 – Jesus so entered Jerusalem.
Mic. 5:2 – Israel's ruler shall come from Bethlehem – Matt. 2:1,4-8; Luke 2:4-7 – Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus in His Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension
Psalm 16:10; 30:3 – He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt – Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 – Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.
Psalm 22:1 – My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? – Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 – Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.
Psalm 22:7 – the people will wag their heads at Him – Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 – the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:7 – He will be mocked – Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 – Jesus was mocked.
Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 – He will be numbered with the transgressors – Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 – Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.
Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 – His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born – John 19:23,34,37 – Jesus' hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.
Psalm 22:17 – they will stare and gloat over Him – Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 – the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:18 – they will divide His garments among them – Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 – they divided Jesus' garments among them.
Psalm 22:18 – they will cast lots for His garments – Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 – they cast lots for Jesus' garments.
Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 – He will be raised to life on the third day – Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 – Jesus was raised to life on the third day.
Psalm 34:20 – He will not have broken bones – John 19:33,36 – none of Jesus' bones were broken.
Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 – He will be betrayed by a friend – Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 – Jesus was betrayed by a friend.
Psalm 68:18 – He will ascend into heaven – Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 – Jesus ascended into heaven.
Psalm 68:20 – He will escape the powers of death – Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 – Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.
Psalm 69:21 – they will give Him vinegar to drink – Matt. 27:34,48; Mark 15:23,36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 – they gave Jesus vinegar to drink.
Psalm 110:1 – He will sit at the right hand of God – Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 – Jesus sits at the right hand of God.
Isaiah 50:6 – He will be spat upon – Matt. 26:67; Mark 15:19 – Jesus was spat upon.
Isaiah 50:6; Mic. 5:1 – the ruler of Israel's cheek will be struck – Matt. 26:67; Luke 22:63; John 18:22 – Jesus was so struck and beaten.
Isaiah 53:5; Zech. 13:6 – He was wounded, bruised and scourged for us – Matt. 27:26; Mark 15:15; John 19:1 – Jesus was wounded, bruised and scourged for us.
Isaiah 53:7 – He will remain silent before His accusers – Matt. 27:12,14; Mark 14:61;15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9 – Jesus remained silent before His accusers.
Isaiah 53:8-10; Dan. 9:26 – the anointed one shall be cut off and die – Luke 23:46; 24:7; John 19:30 – Jesus the Messiah died.
Isaiah 53:9 – He will be buried in a rich man's tomb – Matt. 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; Luke 23:50-53; John 19:38-42 – Jesus was buried in a rich man's tomb (the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).
Isaiah 53:12 – He will make intercession for the transgressors – Luke 23:34,43 – Jesus made intercession for the transgressors on the cross.
Amos 8:9 – God will darken the earth at noon – Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45 – there was darkness at noon at Jesus' crucifixion and death.
Jonah 1:17 – three nights and days in the belly of the whale foreshadows Jesus' death and rising on the third day.
Mic. 1:8 – He will lament and wail, and will go stripped and naked – John 19:23-24 – Jesus lamented and was stripped and naked.
Zech. 11:12-13 – He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver – Matt. 26:15 – Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
Zech. 11:13 – the pieces of silver are cast into God's house – Matt. 27:5 – Judas threw the pieces of silver into the Temple.
Zech. 12:10 – His side will be pierced – John 19:34, 37 – Jesus' side was pierced.
Zech. 13:7 – He will be forsaken by His disciples who will scatter – Matt. 26:31, Mark. 14:50 – Jesus' disciples forsook Him and scattered.
OK…now to your objection:
OBJECTION: Jesus did not fulfill four specific prophecies of the Messiah. Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
REBUTTAL: The Jewish emphasis on these prophecies in the case of Jesus is inconsistent with their own history. On three well-known occasions, and many more that are not well-known, highly respected rabbis named as the Messiah men who did not fulfill this prophecy. (1) Rabbi Akiva, convinced that the great Jewish general Shimon Bar Kosba would be the new Yehuda haMaccabi, before he had met the Jewish-tradition requirements, proclaimed Bar Kosba the Messiah and changed his name to Bar Kokhba in 133 AD, even though he did not meet the criteria of the Israelite prophets. Bar Kokhba considered himself the Messiah. Coins struck by his forces saying, “Year one of the redemption of Israel,” have been discovered by archaeologists. However, by 135 AD, when Bar Kokhba’s forces were defeated, Rabbi Akiva changed his name again, this time to Bar Kosiba, son of a lie. (2) Shabbatai Zevi, a man with a flair for the dramatic, announced in 1665 that he was the Messiah. Before he had met the requirements, most of the world’s rabbis accepted his claim until the following year, when he was faced with a choice of death or conversion to Islam. When he chose Islam, most of the rabbis, realizing that the Messiah could never apostasize, abandoned him. (3) Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, of the Chabad-Lubavitch movement, died on June 12, 1994. Many in Chabad-Lubavitch consider him the Messiah, even though he had not met the Jewish-tradition requirements and died before completing them. (Orthodox Jews outside Chabad-Lubavitch do not consider him the Messiah.)
These “Jewish sources” showing that the Messiah will fulfill these prophecies outright are theological opinions of the sages. The sages are entitled to great respect when they interpret the Law of Moses. But Jewish Law has no category for the arrival on earth of a divine Person, because it is a body of law for man.
Now let us look at the four specific prophecies.
OBJECTION A: Jesus did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Let’s look at what the Scripture says. Ezek 37:26 “I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My dwelling place shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary is in the midst of them for evermore.”
This verse does not mention Third or Temple. In fact, Jesus did fulfill it. Jn 2:19 “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ The Jews then said, ‘It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.” Jesus is the third Temple, raised up in three days, always in our midst. Mt 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
OBJECTION B: Jesus did not gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
REBUTTAL: The Scripture says, Is 43:5 “Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you; I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold; bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth.”
Does this verse mean what some Jews say it means? Let’s go back to the beginning of that chapter. Is 43:1 “But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: ‘Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.’” This is about the redemption. In the Old Testament we find the law of the goel, the redeemer. Lev 25:25 “If your brother becomes poor, and sells part of his property, then his next of kin shall come and redeem what his brother has sold.” Goel is the Hebrew word for the kinsman who redeems for us. The original sin had closed the gates of paradise. Gen 3:24 “[God] drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.” We needed redemption. Jesus’ last words on the Cross were, Lk 23:46 “Father, into Thy hands I commit my spirit.” The Jews standing beneath the Cross recognized His quotation from Ps 31:5 “Into thy hand I commit my spirit,” and silently completed that verse, “Thou hast redeemed me, O LORD, faithful God.” They knew the law of the goel. He had told them what He was doing.
But what about Isaiah 43:5? After Solomon’s Israel was divided into the northern kingdom of Israel with its ten tribes, and the southern kingdom of Judah with its tribes of Judah and Benjamin, the northern kingdom fell first. Most members of the tribes of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher were resettled in what is now northern Iraq and Syria, and northwestern Iran. There they married the local people. Like the Samaritans, their children were half-Israelite, their children’s children quarter-Israelite, and so on until the Israelite presence completely merged into the local populations. They are often called “the ten lost tribes of Israel.” Isaiah’s prophecy was that they would be redeemed, brought back. The same prophecy was much more explicit in Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones. God led Ezekiel to a valley of dry bones and commanded that he prophesy. Ezek 37:7 “So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And as I looked, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them. Then he said to me, ‘Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the LORD GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.’ So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great host.”
An exceedingly great host! Our Father had promised Abraham, Gen 15:5 “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them. … So shall your descendants be.” When the people Israel went into the promised land they were few. Deut 7:7 “It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love upon you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples.” Our Father was clear. Ezek 37:11 “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel … and I will place you in your own land; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done it, says the LORD.” Again, your own land. The whole people Israel would be as the stars in heaven! Jesus had redeemed all of the twelve tribes of Israel. He had become the new Temple, and the new Israel. The ten tribes had been concealed in the pagans who came to the Church, and as each one was baptized into the Church he became part of the new Israel.
The Catholic Church affirms that she is the new Israel. New Israel is found in the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council document Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, November 21, 1964, § 9. “So likewise the new Israel which while living in this present age goes in search of a future and abiding city is called the Church of Christ.” It is found also in the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council document Ad Gentes, the Decree on the Missionary Activity of the Church, July 12, 1965, § 5, “Thus the Apostles were the first budding – forth of the New Israel, and at the same time the beginning of the sacred hierarchy.” And it appears in the Catechism of the Catholic Church § 877, “… the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as ‘the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy.’”
OBJECTION C: Jesus did not usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4).
REBUTTAL: The Scripture says, Is 2:4 “He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
The prophets certainly see the Messiah as bringing a time of justice and peace. Jesus opened the kingdom of heaven, in which these conditions eternally prevail. On the Cross, Jesus told Dismas, Lk 23:43 “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” God never promised that Messianic prophecies in Scripture will be fulfilled in earthly life, only that they will be fulfilled by the Messiah.
OBJECTION D: Jesus did not spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world — on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).
REBUTTAL: The Scripture says, Zech 14:9 “And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one.”
It may be that this will occur in this earthly existence, but has not yet occurred. Jesus’ followers expected Him to conquer the Roman Empire. He did, in His own time. Today the only worldwide authority based in Rome is the Catholic Church. His followers asked Him, Acts 1:6 “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” After the Holocaust, which many people see as a “crucifixion” of the Jews, Jesus did restore the kingdom to Israel, as a resurrection. Jesus told us, Acts 1:7 “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.”
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,18:10) Except all that Catholic stuff… 
Catholic stuff…like the Bible…you mean that Catholic stuff?Well…it's the Catholic interpretation of the Bible….let's be honest about it. Hey CA, I have been doing some driving lately, for work, and I have been given some DVDs by a catholic friend. He's copied some theological debates between James White and prominent Catholic apologists. A range of topics including infallability of the Pope, Salvation by Faith + Works, bodily assumption of Mary, Eucharist etc etc. Very interesting indeed, albeit heady and technical (but I like that). I would say they are compulsory listening for any Catholic. Have you heard these yet? I will send you the DVDs if you like.
Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,07:48) Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.
On earth as it is in heavenHi BD,
The kingdom fire has been lit and has never gone out but it's fullfillment comes when Satan and his angels are thrown to earth and then King Jesus comes down to rule on earth and cleanses earth.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2009,17:04) To all, I believe I am mistaken about that prophecy since Psalms 109 appears to be the bases of my memory and I now believe it disagrees with what I remember.
Are you getting old? That is my accuse when I can't remember, and I can't at times either, so that is normal as a Human Being. Getting old gracefully is a myth.IMO We get wise tho. I always say,” We live and learn, and that we do.”
No offence.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2009,08:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,07:48) Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.
On earth as it is in heaven
What is so sad, that so many Catholics think that being Catholic is the only true Church. We used to believe so too.
I think that God has to open your eyes and call you out of whatever false Church you are in. I am forever thankful to God, for calling us out of that Catholic Church.
But like I said before a Catholic is a Catholic and you can't tell them that their wrong.
I remember when we first left the Church, Georg's Mother lived in Germany. She found out that we left the Church and called us. When we told Her about Maria having other children, She said and I quote:” If that is what the Bible says then trow the thing in the garbage can.”
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 10 2009,21:03) Well…it's the Catholic interpretation of the Bible….let's be honest about it. Hey CA, I have been doing some driving lately, for work, and I have been given some DVDs by a catholic friend. He's copied some theological debates between James White and prominent Catholic apologists. A range of topics including infallability of the Pope, Salvation by Faith + Works, bodily assumption of Mary, Eucharist etc etc. Very interesting indeed, albeit heady and technical (but I like that). I would say they are compulsory listening for any Catholic. Have you heard these yet? I will send you the DVDs if you like.
Is it the one with James White vs. Robert Sungenis on Papal Infallibility? Great debate. I encourage any one here to listen to that one.Actually, no I don't think you are getting my meaning…When I say Catholic Bible….I am speaking of the fact that we wrote it.
Irrefutable.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2009,08:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,07:48) Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.
On earth as it is in heaven
Nick,It's a sad day when a Muslim is more orthodox than you.
Quote (georg @ Oct. 12 2009,09:52) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2009,08:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,07:48) Hi CA,
The worldly roman catholic kingdom is indeed worldwide and controls and entraps millions.
But the kingdom of God is not a visible one.
On earth as it is in heaven
What is so sad, that so many Catholics think that being Catholic is the only true Church. We used to believe so too.
I think that God has to open your eyes and call you out of whatever false Church you are in. I am forever thankful to God, for calling us out of that Catholic Church.
But like I said before a Catholic is a Catholic and you can't tell them that their wrong.
I remember when we first left the Church, Georg's Mother lived in Germany. She found out that we left the Church and called us. When we told Her about Maria having other children, She said and I quote:” If that is what the Bible says then trow the thing in the garbage can.”
Peace and Love Irene
Then Georg's mother, God rest her soul, was an uninformed Catholic. This has never been Catholic sentiment.Mary did not have other children. The Bible doesn't say so. So there was no need for this type of comment anyway.
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