- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2009,17:04) To all, I believe I am mistaken about that prophecy since Psalms 109 appears to be the bases of my memory and I now believe it disagrees with what I remember.
That is honest confession.
Requirements of Jewish Messiah:
The Hebrew word “moshiach” means annointed one. There have been many moshiachs throughout Jewish history. Every Jewish king and priest was a moshiach. There was even a non-Jewish moshiach (King Cyrus who permitted the rebuilding of the Temple). The Jewish Messiah will be a man and not a demi-god. He will come once and only once there will be no “second coming”. The belief in an eventual moshiach (Moshiach ben David – Moshiach, son of David) who will be the last king and ruler of Israel is an ancient belief. There is a belief that a potential moshiach is born in every generation. Most scholars believe that it is the conduct of humankind that will determine when the moshiach will arrive.
Who Will the Moshiach Be?
(1) He must be Jewish (Deuteronomy 17:15; Numbers 24:17);
(2) He must be descended from David through Judah (Genesis 49:10) and Solomon (I Chronicles 22:9-10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Hosea 3:4-5);
(3) He will be well-versed in halachah and will observe the mitzvot (Isaiah 11:2);
(4) He will be the perfect judge able to see beyond words and appearances (Isaiah 11:2-3);
(5) He will be able to vanquish evil at a word (Isaiah 11:4);
(6) He will be the king of an independent and recognized Israel (Isaiah 11:10);What Will Happen When the Moshiach Arrives
(1) Elijah will proceeded the Moshiach and announce his arrival (Malachi 3:23-24)
(2) With the coming of the Messiah will be the physical ingathering of Judah from the four corners of the earth (Isaiah 11:12, 27:12-13, 43:5-6; Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3; Zechariah 10:6; Ezekiel 37:21-22;
(3) There will be the reestablishment of the Holy Temple (Micah 4:1; Ezekiel 37:26-28; Isaiah 33:20);
(4) There will be world-wide peace (Isaiah 2:4, 11:6; Micah 4:3; Ezekiel 39:9);
(5) In the Messianic age the entire world will believe in G-d (Isaiah 2:4, 11:9, 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9; Jeremiah 31:33; Zechariah 8:3, 14:9,16;
(6) The Jews will be sought for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23);
(7) Death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) and the dead will be ressurected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13);
(8) The enemy dead will be buried (Ezekiel 39:12);
(9) The Nations will help the Jews materially (Isaiah 60:5,10-12, 61:6);
(10) Each Tribe of Israel will receive its inheritance (Ezekiel 47:13-14);
(11) Eternal joy and gladness will characterize the Jewish Nation (Isaiah 51:11);
(12) The Egyptian River will run dry (Isaiah 11:15);
(13) Trees will yield new fruit monthly in Israel (Ezekiel 47:12);
(14) The nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:12);
(15) Israel will be perfect in the practice of Torah (Deuteronomy 30:6; Jeremiah 31:31-33);
(16) All of Israel will be prophets (Joel 3:1-2);
(17) The Messiah will be universally recognized (Isaiah 11:10)WHY JESUS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE JEWISH MESSIAH
A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that, although Jesus was Jewish, he did not fulfill any of the other criteria. An examination of the contradictory accounts of Jesus' genealogy demonstrates a number of difficulties with the fulfillment of the second criterion. Specifically, the New Testament claims that Jesus did not have a physical father. The Jewish Scriptures, however, clearly state that a person's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one's physical father (Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17). Therefore, Jesus cannot possibly be a descendent of the tribe of Judah nor of King David and King Solomon.
There are even further problems with any attempts to use the Jewish Scriptures to prove Jesus' genealogy through Joseph, the husband of Mary (Jesus' mother). For the New Testament claims that Joseph was a descendent of King Jeconiah, who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendent “sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah” (Jeremiah 22:30). Joseph's genealogy, even if it were transmittable to Jesus, would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.
Finally, there is the problem of the contradictory accounts of Jesus' genealogy in Matthew, Chapter 1 and Luke, Chapter 3. The common Christian explanation of this contradiction claims that Luke's genealogy is that of Jesus' mother, Mary. However, this is unfounded, even according to the Greek original. In addition, it has already been established that genealogy is transferred solely through the father, making this attempted explanation completely irrelevant. Even if one could trace one's genealogy through one's mother, there would be the additional problem that Luke 3:31 lists Mary as a descendent of David through Nathan, Solomon's brother, and not through Solomon himself as required according to the prophesy in I Chronicles 22:10 of the Jewish Bible.
The third, fourth, fifth and sixth criteria have obviously not been fulfilled — neither during Jesus' time nor since. Any Christian claims that these final criteria will be fulfilled in a “Second Coming” are irrelevant because the concept of the Messiah coming twice has no scriptural basis.
To summarize, we cannot know that someone is the Messiah until he fulfills all of the above criteria.
The Christian understanding of the Messiah and Jesus differs greatly from the Jewish biblical view. These differences developed as a result of the Church's influence during the time of the Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea that issued the Nicene Creed in 325 CE.
The Messiah was never meant to be an object of worship. His primary mission and accomplishment is to bring world peace and to fill the world with the knowledge and awareness of one G-d.
1 Some form of the Hebrew word “Moshiach — ” is used over 150 times in the Jewish Bible. Christians consistently translate this word as anointed, except in the ninth chapter of Daniel. In this chapter missionaries deviate from this and other correct translations in an attempt to prove that the Messiah came before the destruction of the Second Temple. Rather than speaking about “the Messiah,” when read in context and with a correct translation this chapter clearly speaks about two different “anointed” subjects hundreds of years apart: a) The first is the anointed King Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) who granted permission to the Jews to return and build the Second Temple 52 years “7 weeks of years” after the destruction of the First Temple; b) The second is the anointed priesthood (Leviticus 4:3) that was terminated 434 years “62 weeks of years” later.
Here are some of the points which demonstrate the blatant discrepancies and inconsistancies in the Missionaries' arguments in favor of Jesus.
The Jewish Messiah is to be a mortal human being born to two mortal parents. He is neither to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. There is nothing in the Bible that states that the Messiah would be a god or God-like, or that he would be born to a virgin. The concept of the former contradicts the Jewish concept of God being above and beyond taking human form and limitations. Jews believe that only God should be worshipped, not a being of His creation, not even the Messiah himself. Besides, nowhere in the Bible is there any virgins giving birth. This idea is only found in pagan mythology, where virgins often bare offsping of gods. The only purpose of the concept of virgin birth is to attract pagans to Christianity.
The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews to the Holy Land, but Jesus lived while the Jews were still there before they were exiled by the Romans. How can he return them to their land if they were still living in it?
The Messiah is to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing.
The Bible states that the Messiah will redeem Israel, but 30 years after Jesus died, Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews were exiled by the Roman to suffer 1900 years of persecution, mostly by the followers of Jesus.
The Prophets of the Bible foretold that all the nations of the world will acknowlege and worship the one true God (Isaiah 11.9, 45, and Zephaniah 3), but nothing like this happened after Jesus died; in fact, Islam develpoed and became the religion of many nations while Christianity splintered into many sects which constantly fight each other, and almost two-thirds of the human race worships idols. The world is very far from monotheism even to this day.
The Messiah's influence will extend to all who will worship God in the Jerusalem Temple. As the Prophet states, “My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations. This has clearly not taken place yet; therefore, the Messiah hasn't come yet.
A new spirit will fill the world man will no longer sin or commit crimes, especially the Jews (Deutteronomy 30: 6, Isaiah 60:21, Jeremiah 50:20, and Ezekiel 36:21). Soon after the days of Jesus, ignorance of God, science, and philosophy filled the earth, and the Dark Ages began.
If Jesus was God, why did he pray to and talk to himself?
The true Messiah will reign as King of the Jews. Jesus' carrer as a wandering preacher and “faith healer” lasted only three years until he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal without any official postition or authority whatsoever.
One of the Messiah's main tasks is to bring world peace by ending wars and arms manufacturing (Isaiah 2:4). Yet, Christian nations are very war-like, and wars continue to be fought to this day.
Mark 13:30 and Matthew 4 states that the prophecies about the Messiah would take place during Jesus' generation, but nothing was accomplished after 2,000 years.
Nohwere does the Bible say that the Messiah would come once, die, and return in a “second coming”. Such a concept was a Christian concept meant to rationalize Jesus' failure to function in any way as the Messiah or fulfill the Hebrew Bible's prophecies.
The Bible says that the Messiah would be descened from King David. If Jesus is the “Son of God”, how could he be descened from King David from his father's side?
Missionaries constantly and deliberatly distort the meaning of the prophets' words in order to substantiate their claims; for example, the Hebrew term in Isaiah , “almah” means “young woman”, not “virgin”. Honest Christian scholars now admit this is a “pious fraud”, and they translate the word correctly in the “Reverse Standard Version” of the Bible.
If Jesus' raising from the dead was so important to demonstrate who he was, why did it take place in secret instead of in the presence of his “thousands' of followers?
Jesus claimed that he didn't intend to change the laws of Moses (Matthew 5), but he later abrogated some of the laws, and his followers later abolished or changed nearly all of them; for example, Christians still eat pork and fail to celebrate Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanna despite what the Torah says. The Torah constantly says that its laws are eternal, and they can't be abolished or changed.
Judaism believes that God is eternal, above, and beyond time. He can't be born, die, suffer, “become flesh”, or be divivded into sections (“Father, Son, and Holy Ghost”).
If Jesus was the Messiah, why does the New Testiment admit that not one of the rabbis of the time accept his claim? Why did all the educated men and prominent men reject him?
If Jesus was the Messiah, why did most of his own people, the Jews of that time, reject him, including his own family? Why did his followers consist almost completely of a handful of poorly educated people?
Jesus ordered his followers to preach to the Jews only, not the Gentiles (Matthew 10), but his followers did the exact opposite. He clearly considered himself th Messiah of the Jews only, but he is accepted by foreign nations, and not the Jews.Source: http://www.angelfire.com/ri2/gideonbernstein/
The purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all the Jews will observe the Torah and to teach it to all humankind who will accept its truths. Nowhere in the Torah does it state that the Messiah will abolish it. The Torah is eternal.
Nowhere in the Torah does it state that forgivness of a person's sins can be brought about by someone else's death. Each man isaccountable for his own sins, and each man must repent of his own sins by changing his ways and seeking God's forgiveness.
Matthew 1 and Luke 3 both give different accounts of Jesus being descended from King David through his father Joseph.
If Jesus was the “Son of God”, why did he say on the cross, “My God, my God, why did thou foresake me?” instead of “My Father”?Source quoted by gollamudi reads:
Quote However, this is unfounded, even according to the Greek original. In addition, it has already been established that genealogy is transferred solely through the father, making this attempted explanation completely irrelevant.
The Jewish also claims that Jewishness comes from the mother's line. Opps! They contradict themselves.
What tribe does a Jew child belong to who is born of a Jewish mother and a Gentile Father?
beingjewish.com on October 9, 2009 reads:
Quote The original and current Jewish definition of a born Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish. Even though the Torah forbids a Jewish woman to marry a Gentile man, if she does, her children will still be Jewish.
The Torah also forbids a Jewish man to marry a Gentile woman, and if he does, his children by that woman will not be Jewish.
In there corrupt efforts to disprove Jesus is the Anointed One the Synagogue of Satan that calls themselves Jews stumble over their own traditions.
Here is the rest of my source.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 08 2009,10:49) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 07 2009,22:45) GM: When you see(understand) the Spirit(God) of the Truth that Jesus taught you will find all the requirments fulfilled. Jesus said my word are spirit and life..!(John 6:63) Jesus said God is Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit of truth. Jesus said when the spirit comes he will teach you all things. If we are born of spirit and recreating our former physical belief systems with the New Spirit Truth we will see and understand all God Truth. The New Covenant of Spirit Truth is come. Old covenand physical beliefs must now be interpreted spiritually to understand the New covenant way of God. The old temple(physical building) is now each individual human body. Jesus rebuilt(his body) the New Temple in three days. The old law of physical works trying to get to God was until John the Baptist, since then the(Spirit) Kingdom(within)is taught. The old physical church buildings are now individual human bodies. Any rituals,holy days,offerings,sacrifices, of the old attempted way to God are completed fully in Jesus and offered pre-paid to all who will accept and believe. Spiritually speaking, a jew is not a jew that is outward(or bloodline), but inward by circumcision of the heart(believing). There is no jew or gentile or bond or free or male or female, all are ONE in the New Kingdom, by faith. Wars(lies,deceptions) against spiritual truth will come into the mind to defeat this Truth but he who holds fast overcomes. Spirit of God is the New Covenant way of salvation,healing and peace with God, for whosoever will come by believing in Jesus. Can you name any Jew that did the works of Jesus and can you show me where God chose any bloodline as his people. All Gods people were by faith. Jesus did many powerful supernatural works among the people, a definite seal of approval from God. To each his own, I choose Jesus as my lord. God Bless you, TK
You seem to choose Jesus as your God, is this true?
I have made Jesus lord of my life. To me this means that whatever he says is the Truth of God. I believe Jesus was the word of God made flesh. To me this means they are ONE! There is just flesh around one so as to function in the earth realm. I believe that Jesus gave us the words/spirit(John 6:63) of God and if we partake of them within our bodies like food and drink we also become ONE with them. The Kingdom of God is within each human(Luke17:21). We either rule our lives by the love of God and reap a harvest comensurate with that love or we rule our lives our own way and reap from destruction. Jesus said he and the father would come and make their abode(home) in us. That where he is there will we be also. Why people seem to be looking for Jesus to return someday I don't know.If one hold a picture of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God on a throne one must then be born again(change mind to spirit).Jesus(the word of God) dwells within as we are able to accept this truth. We must eat his flesh and drink his blood(spiritually). You become what you eat! He becomes bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh when we accept him. He is here now within those who believe.If one is looking for Jesus to come someday they cannot believe he is here now! The Kingdom is come, now! His work is finished, now! Its the time for the body of Christ(us) to rise up in understanding that the work is fininshed and Christ is now! God bless you, TKYes brother I believe that God raised him from the dead. But I don't believe a lot of things what majority Christians believe like Virgin Birth, bodily(physical body with wounds) resurrection, Trinity, triune God, pre-existence of Jesus, divinity of Jesus etc.
Why Can't Jews Be For Jesus?
——————————————————————————–
from http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/17-03.html and http://www.aish.com/jewishi….sus.asp
The question above is a typical one asked by Christian Missionaries. The answer is easy, if one understands Jewish beliefs.
Jews do not believe that the Messiah is a part of G-d, or Divine in any way, more than any other person. Jews look only to G-d for our salvation, and when the time comes for G-d to bring the anointed king, then it shall happen. Jews do not concern ourselves with the messiah's identity, for the messiah is a person and the messiah's coming does not change our relationship with G-d. Jews do not accept the notion that Scripture “foretells” that G-d would robe Himself in flesh; in fact, to Jews, this idea is idolatry, and we stand against it.
The reason why Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah is straightforward: he did not meet the requirements in the job requisition! G-d outlined these requirements in the Bible. The key aspect of proof is in the state of the world. According to the Bible, amongst the most mission of the messiah includes returning the world to return to G-d and G-d's teachings; restoring the royal dynasty to the descendants of David; overseeing the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Temple; gathering the Jewish people from all over the world and bringing them home to the Land of Israel; reestablishing the Sanhedrin; restoring the sacrificial system, the Sabbatical year and Jubilee. This simply has not happened. Judaism has no notion of the messiah not doing these things on the first visit, let along needing a second visit to do these things. Whenever these things are described in the Tanach, the description says that the messiah will come and do these things – once.
Oh you want specifics? According to the Torah, the Messiah will:
Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple (besides saying that the Messiah will build the Third Temple, this chapter also details the exact dimensions that the Third Temple would have – precluding the Third Temple from simply being an allegory in Christian tradition)
Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel
Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.”
Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel – uniting the entire human race as one: “G-d will be King over all the world – on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One”
Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies. Additionally:
Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy could only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (~300 BCE) the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, thus prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets (Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi). Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.
Jesus was not descended from King David. Per Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David. However, according to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father — and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from a verse in Isaiah describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by G-ds. Isaiah 7:10 – 16
10: And God spoke to Ahaz and said
11: “Come on, ask me for a sign [that your enemies will be defeated]”
12: “Hmm… I dunno…”
13: Then he said “Come on, King [Ahaz]. You're quick to not trust people, but you're not going to trust God either?”
14:”God's gonna give you a sign. Check out this chick right here. The kid she's bearing is going to be named 'Immanuel'”
15: “He's going to eat the finest food and be a really good kid”
16: “But before he gets hair on his nuts, your enemies will be defeated”
It's well established that all four gospels were written in Greek. The Septuagint (LXX) is a Greek language version of the Hebrew “Old Testament”, which is more than likely what Matthew was quoting from. Isaiah 7:14 in Hebrew reads “this young woman” while Isaiah 7:14 in the LXX reads “this virgin”. In either case, Isaiah 7 is not a messainic prophecy, it's a chapter that deals with King Ahaz and his fear of the neighboring kingdoms. Isaiah wanted King Ahaz to wait for God to give him support instead of making alliances with Assyria. See the history of King Ahaz in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
Besides being literally written in Greek, a lot of Christianity's themes (gods impregnating mortals) are Greek in nature. Nietzsche called Christianity “Platonism for the masses”.In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption. There are two problems with this claim:
There is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn't have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:
There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph's genealogy, not Mary's.
Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn't help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.
Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14)
Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.Tradition teaches that the Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. Deut. 13:1-4 states that all mitzvahs remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states its commandments are no longer applicable. (John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)
Also read about the Notzrim, who might have had a different view of the Jewish messiah than traditional Judaism.
Redefining the Roles
In Christianity, the role of the messiah was redefined in order to fit the man's career as written by his followers. As Jesus was said to have been resurrected, the Bible was examined with the purpose of finding evidence that the messiah would be killed without bringing peace to the world or redemption to Israel. There was therefore the expectation of a second coming, at which time Jesus would carry out the task expected of the messiah (because he obviously didn't do it the first time). This also required cr
eation of an explanation for the first coming and its catastrophic end. The net result of all of this was to shift the function of the messiah from a visible level where it could be tested (as in Tanach, what Christians call the “Old Testament”) to an invisible level where it could not. As a result of this reworking, the messiah's goal the first time around was changed from the redemption of Israel to the atonement for “original sin”. A reworking of Biblical themes.Psalms 22:17
There were also mistakes with respect to Jesus's death and its foretelling. Psalms 22:17 says, “Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet.” The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word “gouged.” Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: “They pierced my hands and feet.” Other scholars have said that Psalms 22:17 has the Hebrew word ki-asi, which would make this verse say “They bound my hands and feet”. As for the events that led up to the crucifixion:
First, the NT says that the trial was on a Friday, and that on the night before, Jesus celebrated the Passover meal with his disciples. Accordingly, that would mean that his trial was on the first day of Passover. Here is a violation of two legal principles — his trial was not on a Thursday or Monday as required, and it was on a holiday when no trials whatsoever could be held.
Second, there were no witnesses of a warning to Jesus and no witnesses of his actual crime. The NT account of his trial shows that he was convicted on his own testimony. This is a severe violation of the Torah.
Third, there is no account in the NT of any call for defense witnesses. Both the second and third points violate Jewish Sahnedrin law in Deut 19:15.
Fourth, the choice of execution methods violates Torah completely. If convicted for Sabbath violation or false prophecy, the appropriate punishment was stoning. Why use a Roman torture method that took days to kill the felon, if it did at all, and resulted in a mutilated corpse?
Fifth, if the trial and execution were indeed held on Friday, there are several problems, including limited time for a trial, and limited time for the execution. A crucifixion on a Friday afternoon was certain to run over through Shabbat and then later. Assuming that the 120 judges of the Sanhedrin would have permitted a crucifixion (which is unlikely), one would doubt that they would have risked having Jesus die on the cross after the Sabbath began Friday night (the Sabbath is on Saturday, not Sunday as later Christians have asserted. Even the word “Sabbath” is used to deonte “Saturday” in Spanish). Because of the Sabbath laws, they would have been unable to carry the corpse to a burial site, and leaving the corpse on the cross overnight would be a Torah violation.
Finally, sixth, there is no record teaching that the court of that era was known to be reckless with the use of the death penalty. Yet, not only was Jesus crucified, but so were two petty criminals, according to the NT, and their crimes did not even justify the death penalty under Jewish law.
Isaiah 53Christians also claim that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. Actually, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The singular form is used because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being “bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter” at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44). Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.
Virgin Births and Greek Theology
As for the virgin birth – why did the Christians manufacture a prophecy about a virgin birth? Something that is not required of the Messiah? If not a simple mistranslation, then maybe something else. When the Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah (because the many preconditions for the Messianic era had not been fulfilled), the Church faced the real threat that non-Jews would reject him too. So Paul did two things: He issued an order that said that a Christian no longer had to observe Jewish laws (Acts 15), and he introduced a few pagan myths into the new Christian religion so that it would appeal to the pagan gentiles. One such myth concerned the god Attis, who was worshiped in Western Asia (where Paul actively preached). According to The Golden Bough, by Frazier, Attis was born from a virgin. He later was mutilated and bled to death. The worship of Attis involved an effigy of him that was hung. Afterwards it would be buried in a cave, and when the tomb was reopened, the god Attis would rise from the dead and softly whisper glad tidings of salvation. In the Roman worship of Attis, an animal's blood, symbolic of the blood of Attis, would be poured on worshipers. They believed that his blood would wash away the worshipers sins. (Like Early Christians, worshipers of Attis also practiced celibacy). The two religions are so close that it cannot be a coincidence. Rather, Paul introduced these ideas into the worship of Jesus. Hence, he had to manufacture in Tanach a prophecy that the Messiah would be immaculately conceived.
Psalms 110:1
In Matthew 22:41-44, there is a reported conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees concerning the genealogy of the Messiah. The Pharisees said that the Messiah will be the son of David, and Jesus reportedly counted: “'How then does David in the spirit call him 'Lord,' saying: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool”? If David then called him Lord, how is he his son?' And no one was able to answer him a word, neither did any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” This conversation could not have happened! Matthew is referring to Psalm 110:1, and is based on a clear mistranslation.
The first “Lord” in the sentence is properly capitalized because it uses the four-letter Hebrew name for G-d, the Yud kay vav kay – … YHWH. We would pronounce that in prayer as “Adonai,” which means Lord and only applies to G-d. The second “Lord” is improperly capitalized because the Hebrew word used at that point is “adoni” which means “my lord” and only refers to a human. So Psalms 110:1 should read: “The Lord said unto my lord, sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” So who is the second and lower-cased “lord”? King David. This psalm begins “LeDavid Mizmor” (A song to David as opposed to by David). Accordingly, the song is written for David and makes him the subject of the first sentence. With that knowledge, the rest of the psalm makes perfect sense, G-d is giving much needed comfort to the King of Israel. Alternatively, it can be understood as a psalm written by David to be sung by the Levite choir praising him after his death.
Certainly any Pharisee would have known the meaning of Psalm 110 and would not have been confused by “Adonai” versus “adoni”. It is not so clear that a Greek-educated story teller with little or no Jewish training, and a Christian axe to grind, would have been so knowledgeable. The story in Matthew then must be made up and judged self-serving.
Yet despite the obvious mistranslation, Psalms 110:1, continues to be misused by missionaries to prove that the Messiah sits at G-d's right hand and is like G-d. Judaism, however, believes that the Messiah is a human being, not a god.
True Redemption
For Jews, if the Tanach's requirements for the messiah have not been fulfilled, then there can only be one explanation: he has not yet come. To Jews, who were often subjected to mockery and contempt when asked where their messiah was, this was a painful stat
ement to make. But it was inescapable. As our forefather's said: Ani M'amin: “I believe with complete faith in the coming of the messiah; and though he may tarry I shall wait for him every day.”Furthermore, Christianity contradicts Jewish theology. In Christianity, the notion of “Trinity” breaks G-d into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). However, the basis of Jewish belief is captured in the Shema: “Hear O Israel, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is ONE” (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the One-ness of G-d every day, writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of G-d's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before he dies. In Jewish law, worship of a three-part G-d is considered idolatry — one of the three cardinal sins which a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.
Furthermore, Christians believe that G-d came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). However, in Judaism, the fundamental idea is that G-d is Incorporial, meaning G-d has no physical form. In Judaism, G-d is Eternal, above time, Infinite, beyond space. G-d cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that G-d assumes human form makes G-d small, diminishing both G-d's Unity and Divinity. The Torah says: “G-d is not a mortal” (Numbers 23:19). Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, with normal physical attributes just like other people. He will not be a demigod, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (Maimonides – Laws of Kings 11:3)
Lastly, in Christianity, the physical world is viewed as an evil to be avoided. Mary is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. Monasteries are in remote, secluded locations. In Judaism, the belief is that G-d created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform. The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World-to-Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.
So what do Jews say about Jesus, if he wasn't the messiah. The historical Jesus (not the mangod Christianity made him into) accomplished a great deal in turning people away from idolatry and towards a more authentic knowledge of G-d. But he has no special role to Judaism, in fact, no role at all.
Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 09 2009,03:25) Yes brother I believe that God raised him from the dead. But I don't believe a lot of things what majority Christians believe like Virgin Birth, bodily(physical body with wounds) resurrection, Trinity, triune God, pre-existence of Jesus, divinity of Jesus etc.
I may not agree with all that you say, but I have no conflict with you, since you believe in the resurrection.My beliefs are not completly Orthodox with most christian views.
I believe in the God of Abraham, and that his begotton son was born, died, and resurrected, and in that he was the atoning sacrifice for me.
Thanks for such agreement. But but my plea is to read the bible with jewish eyes than with helenistic Christian eyes.
Gollamudi source reads:
Quote Jews do not believe that the Messiah is a part of G-d, or Divine in any way, more than any other person. Jews look only to G-d for our salvation, and when the time comes for G-d to bring the anointed king, then it shall happen. Jews do not concern ourselves with the messiah's identity, for the messiah is a person and the messiah's coming does not change our relationship with G-d. Jews do not accept the notion that Scripture “foretells” that G-d would robe Himself in flesh; in fact, to Jews, this idea is idolatry, and we stand against it
I do not see how that differs from what Christians believe.
Gollamudi source reads:
Quote Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple (besides saying that the Messiah will build the Third Temple, this chapter also details the exact dimensions that the Third Temple would have – precluding the Third Temple from simply being an allegory in Christian tradition)
I am going to venture a guess that the Jews are confused since I believe Ezekiel who prophesied before the second temple was built was speaking of the second temple.
Gollamudi,
Have you examined these claims?
Why do you choose to put your trust in those that claim to be Jews?
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,14:10) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 08 2009,17:03) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 08 2009,23:15) If Jesus did not meet the Geneologies, if Jesus did not meet the Prophecies, or if Jesus did not meet any other requirements sent forth by the early writers of the scriptures, then he is not the Messiah, and if he is not the Messiah, then he would not have been resurrected. See the glitch?
He was resurrected, unless you deny that.
Preach the resurrection, you preach the Messiah.
Can you show me one scripture that states that the messiah had to meet any prophecy at all?
Divrei Nevuah – Bear FruitA prophecy refers to the message that has been communicated to a prophet which the prophet then communicates to others. Usually the foreknowledge of future events, though it may sometimes apply to past events of which there is no memory, and to present hidden things which cannot be known by the natural light of reason.
Here is a Prophecy, of all the Prophets who fulfilled this one so far?
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2
Here is another Prophecy, of all the Prophets who fulfilled this one so far?
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Jeremiah 23:5
Here is another Prophecy, of all the Prophets who fulfilled this one so far?
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah Chapter 53
Divrei Nevuah Shalom Bodhitharta
Not trying to be funny and I know that Jesus is the Christ, however Jesus at this point did not fulfill any of the prophecies you mentioned.He did not become ruler in Israel
He has not yet brought judgement or justice to the earth in fact this prophecy could pertain to Hezekiah who did bring peace and justice and was a king.
Also, Jesus was not despised by men in-fact he was very popular with the masses which is why the elect wanted him killed. Also to say he will prolong his days is to say that he will not die which in Islam the Quran states that Jesus did not die and did prolong his days. being raised from the dead does not qualify as prolonging a person's days.
Actually, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah but they are unaware because of what Isaiah said:
Matthew 13:14
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:In other words the Messiah would come and they would not understand and still the process is unfolding and the return of Jesus will be to the Jews like the first coming for them and as I have been saying Islam points out that Jesus will complete all the prophecies in One single lifetime so as the Quran says God saved Jesus from the crucifixion and raised him up to God's presence ALIVE and when Jesus returns he would have aged the entire time as is written in revelations otherwise if he was raised from the dead he would not continue to age would he?
Hi BD,
Your false teachings do not improve on the sacred words.
Jesus died by crucifixion and was raised that we may follow him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 10 2009,00:28) Hi BD,
Your false teachings do not improve on the sacred words.
Jesus died by crucifixion and was raised that we may follow him.
I am going to say that except for what, the Quran states about Jesus aging, what bodhitharta states in the final post sounds correct. What errors did you detect?I have more disagreements with the first post he made today.
Hi K,
Because he has no concept of the living Spirit of God that gives eternal life to all who share the blessing he cannot accept the death of Jesus and resurrection by that Spirit.
Jesus, the firstborn FROM THE DEAD, showed us the way and all we need to do is be reborn of water and the Spirit. [rom6]Hi Adam:
Part of what you quoted regarding the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah states:
Quote The Jewish Messiah will be a man and not a demi-god. He will come once and only once there will be no “second coming”. If that is true, what about the following scripture?
Quote Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 09 2009,18:10) Hi Adam: Part of what you quoted regarding the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah states:
Quote The Jewish Messiah will be a man and not a demi-god. He will come once and only once there will be no “second coming”. If that is true, what about the following scripture?
Quote Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Love in Christ,
Marty
The Second Coming of Christ,I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27
For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth: And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God: 19:25-6
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. Isaiah 24:23
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jude 1:14
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 10 2009,05:41) Hi K,
Because he has no concept of the living Spirit of God that gives eternal life to all who share the blessing he cannot accept the death of Jesus and resurrection by that Spirit.
Jesus, the firstborn FROM THE DEAD, showed us the way and all we need to do is be reborn of water and the Spirit. [rom6]
If you are correct then I misinterpreted what he meant by God saving Jesus from crucifixion.Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 09 2009,21:06) The third, fourth, fifth and sixth criteria have obviously not been fulfilled — neither during Jesus' time nor since. Any Christian claims that these final criteria will be fulfilled in a “Second Coming” are irrelevant because the concept of the Messiah coming twice has no scriptural basis.
THIS HAS ALWAYS TROUBLED ME!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
