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Hi Laurel,
Here is a link on Aramaic version of N.T which cleverly diminishes the apparent contradictions of N.T.http://aramaicnttruth.org/downloads/outside/8_Contradictions.pdf
Adam,
I do not know what you know and what you do not know. It therefore seems wiser to assume you speak from lack of knowledge unless I am certain that you have it. In this case you have demonstrated that you have some knowledge about the new creation but you word also seem to show that knowledge is less or different than mine.
You make a point but leave much unsaid thus requiring me to try to read between the lines. I ask that you provide more details why you have concluded that Jesus being the first born of the new creation does not mean he is the firstborn of all (implied: the new) creation.
Are you sure you have Revelations 3:14 correct as I do not remember it used as support for Jesus’ preexistence. It is simply stating Jesus is King of everything and the fulfillment of God’s plan for humanity.
You also introduce the question of whether Jesus rules just God’s new creation or both the old and the new? That bears some thought.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2010,07:42) Adam, I do not know what you know and what you do not know. It therefore seems wiser to assume you speak from lack of knowledge unless I am certain that you have it. In this case you have demonstrated that you have some knowledge about the new creation but you word also seem to show that knowledge is less or different than mine.
You make a point but leave much unsaid thus requiring me to try to read between the lines. I ask that you provide more details why you have concluded that Jesus being the first born of the new creation does not mean he is the firstborn of all (implied: the new) creation.
Are you sure you have Revelations 3:14 correct as I do not remember it used as support for Jesus’ preexistence. It is simply stating Jesus is King of everything and the fulfillment of God’s plan for humanity.
You also introduce the question of whether Jesus rules just God’s new creation or both the old and the new? That bears some thought.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Please leave personal attacks and discuss the subject. You think I am lacking knowledge and I may think you lack it. So there will be no end for these attacks. N.T says Jesus is Last Adam as stated by Paul. What does that mean? It means Jesus came as human in the likeness of First Adam (Hebrew “Man”) and he became Last Adam (Man) since with his death and resurrection God ended the old creation and began a new creation of (human) race who will be made perfect in the image of God which Adam (the first man) was intended to be made. But he lost due to his disobedience to God and inherited death. But Jesus the Last Adam (Man) became a life-giving Spirit similar to First Adam (Man) who became a animated soul as per Paul's 1 Cor 15:45-49. The spiritual is not first but the natural.Now as per 2 Cor 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!” Means the believers in Christ have spiritually become new creation but they will be literally created when the physical resurrection occurs for them which will be similar to that of Jesus as per 1 John 3:1-3. Paul says as we are of First Man so we will be of Last Man that means First Man was the father of all animated souls so will be the Last Man who also is the First Man in the new creation. We will become living-spirits similar to that of resurrected Jesus who is the life-giving Spirit in resurrection. This is what I understood as a Christian.
But the problem here is the interpretation of Unitarianism on Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14 which indirectly support preexistence of Jesus. They say here we can only take the new creation and not the old. All preexistence believers have objected this interpretation as per the thread “preexistence” and I also objected it in my posts above. I brought contradiction in the N.T but you ignore that. Here is the problem and you give solution. There ends the matter.
Peace to you
AdaQuote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2010,07:42) Adam, I do not know what you know and what you do not know. It therefore seems wiser to assume you speak from lack of knowledge unless I am certain that you have it. In this case you have demonstrated that you have some knowledge about the new creation but you word also seem to show that knowledge is less or different than mine.
You make a point but leave much unsaid thus requiring me to try to read between the lines. I ask that you provide more details why you have concluded that Jesus being the first born of the new creation does not mean he is the firstborn of all (implied: the new) creation.
Are you sure you have Revelations 3:14 correct as I do not remember it used as support for Jesus’ preexistence. It is simply stating Jesus is King of everything and the fulfillment of God’s plan for humanity.
You also introduce the question of whether Jesus rules just God’s new creation or both the old and the new? That bears some thought.
Kerwin
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;This also goes with
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Since Jesus gave us the new covenant I would think that He kept it….I don't know if He did though……
Peace and love IreneIrene,
I use a different translation which goes:
Revelation 3:14(NIV):
Quote “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2010,10:20) Irene, I use a different translation which goes:
Revelation 3:14(NIV):
Quote “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.
Kerwin, I believe that the King James version of the Bible is the closest to the original Greek and Hebrew translation of the Bible. That's why I go by it.
what does your NIV say about col. 1:15
?I also use the Blue letter Bible from the Internet, I copy and paste all my Scriptures from it…..which us the KJV…..
Peace and love Irene
Kerwin, we do have a NIV and i just looked up Col.1:15 and it says the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation…..Go figure…..Irene
Adam,
About personal attacks, God command his people to rebuke their neighbor for sin or be held accountable for doing so. I chose to obey God rather than man. God also commands us not to bear false witness against our neighbor. Bearing false witness is making a derogatory attack. I use the general U.S. legal opinion on what a derogatory attack is.
In the case of one being unbeliever for not understanding scripture correctly Scripture itself is clear. It may well be there is a degree of unbelief as Jesus called his disciples part of an unbelieving generation at times even though they had placed their faith in the fact he is the Anointed.
I understand that the new creation is not of the physical but it is of the spirit. To be born again is the same as saying to be created again. Still that is not the end of the matter as scripture speaks of all of creation being delivered from it bondage to decay through Christ, Roman 8:20-30. I know from reading scripture that it was placed into bondage through Adam.
I am only at the brainstorming phase of handling what scripture states about the First Adam and Last Adam. It may be that I will agree with you when I have gone through the whole process but it seems to me that the Holy Spirit, a life giving spirit, qualifies as the Last Adam more than Jesus does.
I pointed out that the translations of Revelations 3:14 vary which means using it as evidence is the logical fallacy known as a call to authority. To resolve such a dispute among experts pretty much involves assuming Jesus is preexistent or not.
We are striving to understand Colossians 1:15 in regards to the new creation so first we must understand the new creation and how it is different from the old.
I do give solutions by pointing out that God exists and his word is recorded in scripture. If a scripture is correctly interpreted it will not be contradictory and will not contradict scripture as a whole. It also is consistent with the righteous nature of God. Ideas in scripture are often repeated and so you can usually find the same idea put forth in a different manner elsewhere.
Irene,
The King James makes a number of errors as does the NIV and other translations. I happen to know that the Church of England is a heretical sect and thus know its members were not carried along by the spirit when translating. The same is true of the NIV which was composed by members from a number of sects but the vast majority if not all being heretics. We just have to let God speak for himself and show us what he really means.
You are correct about how Colossians 1:15 is worded.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2010,17:49) Adam, About personal attacks, God command his people to rebuke their neighbor for sin or be held accountable for doing so. I chose to obey God rather than man. God also commands us not to bear false witness against our neighbor. Bearing false witness is making a derogatory attack. I use the general U.S. legal opinion on what a derogatory attack is.
In the case of one being unbeliever for not understanding scripture correctly Scripture itself is clear. It may well be there is a degree of unbelief as Jesus called his disciples part of an unbelieving generation at times even though they had placed their faith in the fact he is the Anointed.
I understand that the new creation is not of the physical but it is of the spirit. To be born again is the same as saying to be created again. Still that is not the end of the matter as scripture speaks of all of creation being delivered from it bondage to decay through Christ, Roman 8:20-30. I know from reading scripture that it was placed into bondage through Adam.
I am only at the brainstorming phase of handling what scripture states about the First Adam and Last Adam. It may be that I will agree with you when I have gone through the whole process but it seems to me that the Holy Spirit, a life giving spirit, qualifies as the Last Adam more than Jesus does.
I pointed out that the translations of Revelations 3:14 vary which means using it as evidence is the logical fallacy known as a call to authority. To resolve such a dispute among experts pretty much involves assuming Jesus is preexistent or not.
We are striving to understand Colossians 1:15 in regards to the new creation so first we must understand the new creation and how it is different from the old.
I do give solutions by pointing out that God exists and his word is recorded in scripture. If a scripture is correctly interpreted it will not be contradictory and will not contradict scripture as a whole. It also is consistent with the righteous nature of God. Ideas in scripture are often repeated and so you can usually find the same idea put forth in a different manner elsewhere.
Hi brother Kerwin,
You talk about sin. We are only debating things which are not clear to us. Is that sin in your view?New creation is some thing to do with both spiritual as well as physical (literal) as you have rightly quoted from Rom 8. If Jesus resurrection is to be taken spiritual then you fail to understand New creation basics. Even I have to warn you to open your eyes to see clarity in the scriptures not the way you interpret here. I saw the different translations on Rev 3:14 it says “Jesus is the source and beginning of God's creation”. As usual you are always finding short cuts for nice escape from difficulty in those passages. Even if you leave that you can not escape from Col 1:15 as a twin witness against Unitarianism.
It is not Holy Spirit that is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:45-49 but Jesus himself became that life-giving Spirit. Jesus is the life-giver as per John 5:21
” For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.”
This was not expected by Jewish Messiah. In fact Jesus told that he is the 'Life'
Such words make him equal to Yahweh who alone is the source of Life.
In my view you are going astray in finding the right path of God. I may have to warn you too as you seem to warn me repeatedly. Unless you leave those personal biased advices we can not proceed on the subject.
Hope you will understand.
AdamAdam,
All scripture is tied together and so one idea in scripture leads to another. There is a link between the spiritual and physical events of the new creation but not the one you think there is. Scripture declares that the righteous will live forever and so the result of the spiritual new creation is a physical new creation that is imperishable.
The message of the spiritual recreation is the message of the gospel and the result is eternal life. Jesus teaches the gospel and thus his words are life giving. His teachings instruct us how to be recreated thus receiving and living by the Spirit of God. God speaks through Jesus because the Holy Spirit has made a permanent dwelling in him. His words lead to the 1000 year Messianic age.
Paul teaches the gospel in Colossians 1:15 as well as other places as do the other New Testament teachers.
If you truly believe Jesus is the Anointed then you must believe in God who anointed him. If you truly believe in God then you will believe his words and thus believe Jesus is his Anointed.
I think we should stop this deviation of subject and discuss about Jewish Messiah. I am sorry I am not convinced of your explanation on Jesus being the Jewish Messiah. As I pointed out in my post that Jewish Messiah was not expected of what Christianity complicated with Jesus being the giver of Life and Life-giving Spirit where only God is the Life and giver of life. No support for such strange ideas in Hebrew Bible. No preexistence and divinity of Jewish Messiah as claimed by Christianity in various verses like Col 1:15-16, Rev 3:14, John 6:38, John 3:13, John 1:1-3,14, John 13:1, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:8-12 Eph 3:9, Heb 1:2-3 so on and on.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Oct. 09 2009,20:26) Here are some of the points which demonstrate the blatant discrepancies and inconsistancies in the Missionaries' arguments in favor of Jesus. The Jewish Messiah is to be a mortal human being born to two mortal parents. He is neither to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. There is nothing in the Bible that states that the Messiah would be a god or God-like, or that he would be born to a virgin. The concept of the former contradicts the Jewish concept of God being above and beyond taking human form and limitations. Jews believe that only God should be worshipped, not a being of His creation, not even the Messiah himself. Besides, nowhere in the Bible is there any virgins giving birth. This idea is only found in pagan mythology, where virgins often bare offsping of gods. The only purpose of the concept of virgin birth is to attract pagans to Christianity.
The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews to the Holy Land, but Jesus lived while the Jews were still there before they were exiled by the Romans. How can he return them to their land if they were still living in it?
The Messiah is to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing.
The Bible states that the Messiah will redeem Israel, but 30 years after Jesus died, Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews were exiled by the Roman to suffer 1900 years of persecution, mostly by the followers of Jesus.
The Prophets of the Bible foretold that all the nations of the world will acknowlege and worship the one true God (Isaiah 11.9, 45, and Zephaniah 3), but nothing like this happened after Jesus died; in fact, Islam develpoed and became the religion of many nations while Christianity splintered into many sects which constantly fight each other, and almost two-thirds of the human race worships idols. The world is very far from monotheism even to this day.
The Messiah's influence will extend to all who will worship God in the Jerusalem Temple. As the Prophet states, “My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations. This has clearly not taken place yet; therefore, the Messiah hasn't come yet.
A new spirit will fill the world man will no longer sin or commit crimes, especially the Jews (Deutteronomy 30: 6, Isaiah 60:21, Jeremiah 50:20, and Ezekiel 36:21). Soon after the days of Jesus, ignorance of God, science, and philosophy filled the earth, and the Dark Ages began.
If Jesus was God, why did he pray to and talk to himself?
The true Messiah will reign as King of the Jews. Jesus' carrer as a wandering preacher and “faith healer” lasted only three years until he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal without any official postition or authority whatsoever.
One of the Messiah's main tasks is to bring world peace by ending wars and arms manufacturing (Isaiah 2:4). Yet, Christian nations are very war-like, and wars continue to be fought to this day.
Mark 13:30 and Matthew 4 states that the prophecies about the Messiah would take place during Jesus' generation, but nothing was accomplished after 2,000 years.
Nohwere does the Bible say that the Messiah would come once, die, and return in a “second coming”. Such a concept was a Christian concept meant to rationalize Jesus' failure to function in any way as the Messiah or fulfill the Hebrew Bible's prophecies.
The Bible says that the Messiah would be descened from King David. If Jesus is the “Son of God”, how could he be descened from King David from his father's side?
Missionaries constantly and deliberatly distort the meaning of the prophets' words in order to substantiate their claims; for example, the Hebrew term in Isaiah , “almah” means “young woman”, not “virgin”. Honest Christian scholars now admit this is a “pious fraud”, and they translate the word correctly in the “Reverse Standard Version” of the Bible.
If Jesus' raising from the dead was so important to demonstrate who he was, why did it take place in secret instead of in the presence of his “thousands' of followers?
Jesus claimed that he didn't intend to change the laws of Moses (Matthew 5), but he later abrogated some of the laws, and his followers later abolished or changed nearly all of them; for example, Christians still eat pork and fail to celebrate Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanna despite what the Torah says. The Torah constantly says that its laws are eternal, and they can't be abolished or changed.
Judaism believes that God is eternal, above, and beyond time. He can't be born, die, suffer, “become flesh”, or be divivded into sections (“Father, Son, and Holy Ghost”).
If Jesus was the Messiah, why does the New Testiment admit that not one of the rabbis of the time accept his claim? Why did all the educated men and prominent men reject him?
If Jesus was the Messiah, why did most of his own people, the Jews of that time, reject him, including his own family? Why did his followers consist almost completely of a handful of poorly educated people?
Jesus ordered his followers to preach to the Jews only, not the Gentiles (Matthew 10), but his followers did the exact opposite. He clearly considered himself th Messiah of the Jews only, but he is accepted by foreign nations, and not the Jews.Source: http://www.angelfire.com/ri2/gideonbernstein/
The purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all the Jews will observe the Torah and to teach it to all humankind who will accept its truths. Nowhere in the Torah does it state that the Messiah will abolish it. The Torah is eternal.
Nowhere in the Torah does it state that forgivness of a person's sins can be brought about by someone else's death. Each man isaccountable for his own sins, and each man must repent of his own sins by changing his ways and seeking God's forgiveness.
Matthew 1 and Luke 3 both give different accounts of Jesus being descended from King David through his father Joseph.
If Jesus was the “Son of God”, why did he say on the cross, “My God, my God, why did thou foresake me?” instead of “My Father”?
Spoken like a good religious Jew who follows after the teachings and doctrines of men, and who even rejected that Yahushua died according to Passover, ressurected as the First Fruits, and provided the fulfillment of Shavout when the Set Apart Spirit came down from heaven BRIDGED the language barrier curse of Babel, to annoint those in attendence (at the Feast) with the Spirit of the Holy One of Yisra'el!All these unbelievers are the same ones who didn't believe Him then! They are the same ones who withheld the Spirit to those who listened to them becaue of their own man-made laws and tradition which are contrary to Torah!
So you can disbelieve all day, but the truth is the religious Jews are just as unholy as religious Christians and you will all fall into the ditch together!
The Jews do not believe in Jesus because the Christians say Jesus is God. The truth is there is only one Elohim and His Name is Yahuweh!
The Chritians think there is a brand new covenant, but the BIBLE teaches that the covenant is going to be RENEWED!
So while you are all arguing POINTLESS matters, the truth is passing you by. SO i say keep on keeping on, i hope you like the dark. Has it been so long since you saw light that you would be blinded by it.
Satan has you all right where he wants you, fighting over nothing, and full of selfish pride to look to find your own unrighteousness so that you could repent and return.
Hi Laurel,
To see the truth you should come out of biased doctrines of Christianity. I have shown you how the Trinitarian writer of Hebrews failed to interpret Hebrew Bible on New Covenant. If you still hold such man-made doctrines I can not help. You should read Jewish scholars like Maimonides who outrightly rejected Christian Messiah as Jewish Messiah. It is good that you uphold Torah and TaNaK. Please see the truth in those Hebrew scriptures. I can tell you the Hellenistic writers of N.T fabricated these Christian scriptures by taking bits and parts of Hebrew scriptures to suit their dogma.Open your eyes to see the light of truth.
Love and peace to you
AdamAdam,
Maimonides is a rationalist that has influenced modern Jewish doctrine and thus not a good source on earlier Jewish doctrine such as that written in both the Old and New Testaments. His teachings were disputed in the Jewish community of his time and only post humorously became popular. Since he wrote the Mishneh Torah close to a thousand years after the New and Old Testaments you can hardly expect them to hold to his heresy though they may have some tenets in common.
You call speaking of the correct interpretation of Colossians 1:15 -16 a deviation then bring up a corrupt interpretation as an argument as well as using the known call to authority fallacy Revelations 3:14. That does not speak well of your character. Character is a key component in a witness which you have chosen to be. The other scripture you have chosen to believe a misinterpretation of are irrelevant if you have no wish to actually discuss the gospel of Jesus the Anointed for by it you truly learn he is the Messiah.
One part of the gospel leads to another so the fact Jesus is the Anointed of God leads to the effect of his teachings which is to teach us how to enter and abide by the new covenant. It is when we enter that covenant that we become a new creation. Jesus is the image of the invisible God because even though he was tempted as we are he did not sin. He is the first born over all creation because he is the one God appointed King of everything. It is through being created again in him that we receive the Spirit of God through a miracle of God. This is done for him as he is the Anointed and by him for he is the Mediator of the new covenant. Jesus as we are created again through his act of righteousness so too is creation for in a like manner creation was subjected to its bondage of decay because of the sin of Adam. It is up to the character of your soul to either believe what I just wrote is true or that it is not.
Laurel,
God did make a new covenant. This covenant is with both the Jews and the Gentiles though it was given first to those living in Galatia, Judea, and Sumerian and only later extended to the Gentiles. That is why scripture declares that God will show his love to one he called “Not my loved one”, Hosea 2:23.
The new covenant differs from the old in that the new covenant is the fulfillment of the promise of God to make a righteous people by his power. He does this by giving them the Holy Spirit to dwell within them so that they may choose to live according to its ways through faith. There is not promise of a Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. That is why Jeremiah 31:34 states the new covenant will not be like the old one but instead he will write his commandments on the hearts and minds of believers so each one will know Him.
Adam is not a so called Jew but he has chosen to believe the accusations the mockers of that community have launched against Jesus and his students. I do not even believe he stops to test their words or he would know that nowhere in scripture is it written that the Anointed is a descendant of Solomon as well as other errors they have made and he has repeated.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 16 2010,17:59) Laurel, God did make a new covenant. This covenant is with both the Jews and the Gentiles though it was given first to those living in Galatia, Judea, and Sumerian and only later extended to the Gentiles. That is why scripture declares that God will show his love to one he called “Not my loved one”, Hosea 2:23.
The new covenant differs from the old in that the new covenant is the fulfillment of the promise of God to make a righteous people by his power. He does this by giving them the Holy Spirit to dwell within them so that they may choose to live according to its ways through faith. There is not promise of a Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. That is why Jeremiah 31:34 states the new covenant will not be like the old one but instead he will write his commandments on the hearts and minds of believers so each one will know Him.
Adam is not a so called Jew but he has chosen to believe the accusations the mockers of that community have launched against Jesus and his students. I do not even believe he stops to test their words or he would know that nowhere in scripture is it written that the Anointed is a descendant of Solomon as well as other errors they have made and he has repeated.
Kerwin, good post, and i agree with you…….Peace and Love IreneJESUS' GENEALOGY PROVES HIS ANCESTRY FROM DAVID AND PROVES HIS ABILITY TO BE THE MESSIAH? FULFILLED OR UNFULFILLED?
Psalm 89:3-4
“For I said, “Forever will [Your] kindness be built; the heavens, You establish Your faithfulness in them.” 4 “I made a covenant with My chosen one, I have sworn to David, My servant: For all eternity I will establish your seed; and I will build your throne for generation after generation,” Selah.
35-36 “I shall not profane My covenant, and I shall not alter the utterance of my lips. 36 One thing have I sworn by My holiness-that I would not be decitful to David.”
I will now direct your attention to the following texts from the New Testament [Matthew 1:1-17, Luke 3 :23-38, Acts 2:30]. I will not reproduce them to their length but leave you to inspect them as we go through this article.
Judaism and Christianity agree that the Messiah will be a descendant of King David. Jesus' genealogy is traced back to King David in the New Testament.
Answer for yourself: Does the genealogies within the New Testament testify to the Messiahship of Jesus?
Two different and conflicting genealogies are offered by Matthew and Luke. If a genealogy is given to prove descent from David, then it should be faultless and true. Instead, we find multiple difficulties exist which make both enumerations highly suspect due to inconsistencies and questionable presentations. Such errors testify that the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with such gobbledygook. I have taken the time to outline points of irregularity, each a formidable challenge to Christianity's claim of Jesus being descended from David. Read and see.
Matthew lists 42 generations between Abraham and Jesus, while Luke has over 10 more generations listed between them.
In Matthew, David's son Solomon is the ancestor of Joseph, while Luke has David's son Nathan as Joseph's ancestor.
Matthew places 18 generations from David to Zerubbabel, while Luke has 23 generations between them.
After Solomon and Nathan, the enumerations differ until Shealtiel and his son Zerubbabel.
The most recent ancestors of Joseph, which should be the ones easiest to substantiate by Matthew and Luke, are given as completely different. Matthew lists Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, and then Joseph. Luke, in contrast, lists Melchi, Levi, Matthat, Heli, and then Joseph.
Matthew omits three generations listed after David in I Chronicles 3:11 -12, which are Ahaziah, Joash, and Amaziah.
Luke lists Cainan two times, not found in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Biblically, Luke's genealogy is disqualified because the ancestral line does not include Solomon, but David's son Nathan instead. See I Chronicles 28:5,7, “. . . he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel. Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever. .”
Scripture also disqualifies Matthew's genealogy because any descendant of Jehoiakim cannot be the Messiah. Read Jeremiah 22:30 concerning this, “. . . for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David. . .” Continue with I Chronicles 3:16-17, “And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, . . . And the sons of Jeconiah: Salathiel. . .” This matches Matthew 1:12, and we find Jeconiah belongs in this genealogy.
Some of these errors appear to have been caused by the use of the Greek translation, rather than the original Hebrew, and the New Testament writers copying the listing of the generations from there. But, in any case, the contradictions and faults are beyond any attempt at reconciliation or explanation. In I Timothy 1:4 warning is given against trying to use confusing genealogy tables in, “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions. . .” This probably alludes to this present problem, as Titus 3:9 seems to do also. Nevertheless, the proof of ancestry is given twice in the New Testament and creates a quagmire for Christianity.In desperation, Christianity attempts to resolve these problems with weak and inadequate explanations, such as the following. First, Matthew is alleged to list Joseph's ancestors, while Luke lists Mary's. She presumably is descended from King David also. The trouble with this is that it is not Biblically stated, and the evidence is against it. See in Matthew 1:16 it reads, “And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus,. . .” And in Luke 3:23, “And Jesus the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,” is read. Thus, that explanation is disproved. In addition, in Scripture maternal ancestors are never used for succession to thrones. Only paternal ancestors, using male figures of heritage, are used.
Another explanation Christianity tries to have accepted concerns Joseph as a son-in-law. But, this has no validity as to succession. It has been conceived that Heli was Mary's father, not Joseph's. But, by no stretch of the imagination can a father-in-law be given credibility as a named father in Biblical writing. Yet, even with this twisted reasoning, we still would find the female genealogy lacking in importance. For, Mary as a female is not an heir.
One other idea which has been devised is that Mary had two different husbands called Joseph, both married to her at the time of Jesus' birth.
Answer for yourself: What do you think of that one?
Answer for yourself: How many people can trace their ancestry even one or two hundred years, no less the approximate one thousand years between King David and Jesus? Men in those days had many children from several mates, and no official birth records were kept. How could any genealogy for this number of years in this primitive society be valid?
DOES JESUS DENY THAT THE MESSIAH WILL BE DESCENDED FROM KING DAVID?
And remember the New Testament shocker that Jesus himself even denied that the Messiah would be descended from King David. In Matthew 22:44-45 (Mark 12:3 7) (Luke 20:42-44) he said, “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?”
To properly understand and sort out the confusion connected with the above verses of Matt. 22:45 and Luke 20:44 we must properly understand Psalm 110 verse one. This is the famous “The Lord said to my Lord” passage which most Christians believe is spoken of Jesus.
Answer for yourself: What is the truth of the matter?
Psalm 110:1, “The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
This passage is used by Christianity to show that the Lord G-d and the Lord Jesus are in some close supernatural relationship.
We must never forget that these words are from G-d to the human “lord” of this Psalm, who is none other than David himself. It is necessary to read at the beginning of this Psalm that it says in the Hebrew that it is “concerning or about” David. The translation of the second “lord” is the equivalent of “master.” No capitalization should exist, as it is not a reference to G-d. The reading more properly is, “A psalm concerning David, G-d said to my master (David) . . .” Jesus as Lord is not alluded to here at all.
Through inspirational prophesy, the psalm writer gives King David (himself) the assurance of victory over the enemies of the Jewish people. He is to be protected by G-d's power, as shown in the special phrase “at my right hand.” This special phrase is repeated elsewhere, for instance in Psalm 118:16, “The right hand of the Lord is exalted: the right hand of the Lord doeth valiantly.” The figurative expression denotes a place of importance and special care. The expression “footstool” denotes defeat and completes the picture.
Now, note the past tense of the verb, which reads “said.” It means that G-d already had presented His remarks to this “lord.” Yet, Jesus was to be born much later in history.
Answer for yourself: G-d certainly would not be talking Lord-to-Lord to Himself in the same G-dhead. He could not in any rational manner, could He? It is inconceivable an
d absurd. Any thoughts of Christologic findings in this Psalm must be dismissed.However, an important comment on the New Testament's verses concerning this Psalm is in order. It says in Matthew 22:45 (Mark 12:3 7) (Luke 20:44), that Jesus asked how the Messiah (Christ) can be David's son when David himself called the Messiah “Lord.” So, here we have the origination of the error. Jesus asked a very perplexing question. It is a question, which if taken at face value, would devastate the New Testament's texts on the subject of the Messiah. Pay attention to this. If Jesus did not believe the Messiah is to be a descendant of David, then he denied the necessity for all the validation of the Messiah from Davidic ancestry. This contradicts Christianity's own claim that Jesus, through his ancestry, has Messianic pretensions and is fulfilling Scripture prophesy. It cannot be both ways. We leave the pondering of this dilemma to those it concerns, Christians.
Having studied the New Testament and it's many changes over the years I accept the above problem as scribal error or at least mixed-up oral tradition or mixed-up Gentile theology. If Jesus was a good Jew, and I believe him to be, then he would never have believed such a mess as recorded as coming from his lips. Such a error by one in the first century betrays the writers' complete lack of Messianic understanding and betrays the identity of the writer as a non-Jew who is unfamiliar with Judaism and the intricacies of the Messianic prophecies.
Now, we are interested in the denial that the Messiah will be descended from David. In spite of this, Christianity tries to prove descent from King David for Jesus. Two genealogies are offered in the New Testament, because they know the Bible has requirements of lineage for the Messiah to come.
In conclusion, with all that we have presented, we believe we have disposed of the so-called proof of Jesus being the Messiah through Davidic descent. However, now we must ask the fundamental question of why should we bother to do so when Christianity says Joseph was not the natural father of Jesus? Read Matthew 1:20, “. . . the angel of the Lord appeared. . . saying. . . fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” Whether this actually happened or not is not pertinent to our subject. What is of interest is that in Christianity Jesus is not the natural son of Joseph. Therefore, Joseph's heritage is not Jesus'. Adopted Sons or step-sons do not receive paternal lineage. They are not as Acts 2:30 states the Messiah should be, “. . . the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh .”
Answer for yourself: So, if Jesus was not the physical son of Joseph, why the two genealogies' But, if he was the physical son, he cannot be described as conceived by the Holy Ghost as presented in the New Testament. It cannot work both ways. It is quite a dilemma for Christianity. But, it is Christianity's sticky problem that few believers ever consider. What a Christian has to deal with is that keeping the supernatural conception, as Christianity must, we arrive at the conclusion that Jesus has no claim to Davidic heritage on any grounds whatsoever. Again we cannot have it both ways.
Link: http://messianicprophecy.netfirms.com/false_prophecy_genealogy.htmQuote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2010,14:52) Hi Laurel,
To see the truth you should come out of biased doctrines of Christianity. I have shown you how the Trinitarian writer of Hebrews failed to interpret Hebrew Bible on New Covenant. If you still hold such man-made doctrines I can not help. You should read Jewish scholars like Maimonides who outrightly rejected Christian Messiah as Jewish Messiah. It is good that you uphold Torah and TaNaK. Please see the truth in those Hebrew scriptures. I can tell you the Hellenistic writers of N.T fabricated these Christian scriptures by taking bits and parts of Hebrew scriptures to suit their dogma.Open your eyes to see the light of truth.
Love and peace to you
Adam
Adam,
I do not follow man-made doctrines, rules or teaditions! That is what coming out of Babylon means! I left the church and that was over 4 years ago. When i left her (the Whore) i also threw away all her abominations “like a menstrual cloth.”The problem is Adam, that you are looking at the Hebrew Brit HaChodesh as if it is the new age covenant of the Whore which it is not. When you take the blinders off you will see what i see. There is NOTHING in the Brit HaChodesh writings that is contrary to Torah, EXCEPT a mistranslation here and there because the scribes were people who practiced paganisim mingled with truth, and did their best to translate thinking they were on the right path.
The book of Hebrews was not written for Jews specifically. It was written for people just like me and Abraham who were once involved in paganisim and left! The book of Hebrews is clear that the Sabbath remains for the people of ELohim!
Please PM me on the flaws you think you found and i will try to show you the truth.
SHaul sat at the feet of Gamli'el. He was instructed in Torah since a youth. He was considered a brilliant student. SHaul was killing believers as commanded by the Roman/Jewish political leaders of his day. He was there when Steven was stoned to death. They lay Steven's coat at Shaul's feet, because it was Shaul who ordered Steven be stoned.
Read Steven's testimony. There is nothing in it that is not true. Later SHaul was converted to “believer status” converted meaning he became a Hebrew, one who crossed over. Shaul never quit obeying Torah, and never taught against obedience. His new teaching was to LOVE Yahuweh ELohim, “know that Yahushua is the sent one” and obey Torah not because doing it would save, but because doing it shows others Who we worship.
Being saved by grace is nothing new. The word GRACE is mentioned MORE times in the TeNaK than in the Brit Chodesh.
Shaul taught that even Abraham believed, and followed YHWH's will.
I will also point out that Shaul never taught against physical circumcision. His point was that physical circumcision was obedience to the command, but heart circumcision was what YHWH Elohim looked for in believers. Heart circumcision first, physical circumcision last.
Shaul taught “the renewed Covenant” through a circumcised heart, where the Torah is written on the heart “to walk in it.”
We are saved the minute we repent and commit to obedience through belief that YHWH is Elohim, meaning we no longer follow men or lust after our own fleshy desires, we choose to worship YHWH according to His will as written in Torah and taught by the Prophets. This means we become a student of the Torah, because without it, we will never know what sin is or why we need a Messiah in the first place. How can one repent is one does not know what is right or what is wrong. Only the Torah of ELohim has been preserved so that we can PROOVE ALL THINGS.
Now i agree that there are some things that the Messiah has yet to fulfill, but the Feasts are shadow pictures of how He did fulfill some of the prophecy and how will will return to fulfill the rest.
When the JEWS taught about the twin goat offering THEY WERE SUPPOSED to kill one and let the other go free into the widerness, BUT they killed one and pushed the other over a cliff CHANGING the SHADOW PICTURE.
When Mosheh struck the rock the second time, this unrighteous act also changed the shadow picture for CHristians who think they need to kill the Messiah over and over and over every week at their catholic mass, when Scripture indicates that He would only die ONE TIME.
Yahuweh's Word is not the confusion, it is disobedience to it that leads people astray! The Torah is a lamp unto my feet.
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