The jewish messiah

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 30 2010,09:24)

Greetings Laurel:
Unless one be born again, he cannot see/perceive the Kingdom of God. In the new covenant there is no Jew or Gentile or male or female or circumcised or uncircumcised. In spirit all are ONE. The Jews of old had Jesus killed. They couldn't even do it themselves because of their law, so they threatned insurrection in the city and forced Pilot to have him killed. The blood of the death of Jesus was on the hands of the Jews. We may not want to admit that but it is the truth.

Jesus is the messiah of God and his words are the foundation of the new city, the new Jerusalem. Jesus is the capstone, the stones of the building, the rock of foundation, the new living temple of God. Made without hands.
If the master Jesus had wanted anyone to live by the torah he would have said so, it was avaliable. If he didn't use all the various old testament names for God then they are unnecessary for our learning.

Jesus clearly cursed the fig tree and commanded that no one eat her fruit ever again!!

Had the old covenant with the law been able to cleanse the worshipers of sin permantly there would have been no reason for another. The law led us to Christ. The law was a schoolmaster to teach us. Yet it was powerless over sin.
Jesus wasn't the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The Jews were predominatly in darkness and sin. They were vipers, and like snakes with venom/poison in their mouths, they ordered people around and never lifted a finger to help. The Jews of the old testament were blind guides of the blind. TK

Sorry Mr. Kraft, you are living in a world of false doctrines, i hope you conscience isn't seered yet, there isn't much time left to repent. The Lost Sheep/Ephrayim is coming out of Babylon as i write this. You really do not want to be left behind, do you?

November 30, 2010 at 9:17 am#227108

Participant

By the way the gentiles killed the Messiah.
Mar 10:33 “See, we are going up to Yerushalayim, and the Son of Aḏam shall be delivered to the chief priests and to the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death and shall deliver Him to the gentiles,
Mar 10:34 and they shall mock Him, and flog Him, and spit on Him, and kill Him. And the third day He shall rise again.”

November 30, 2010 at 9:33 am#227110

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 30 2010,14:47)

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 30 2010,02:33)

Perfect. We now have the two opposing views which is the culmination of the division of Yisra'el and Yehudah under Reoboam and Jeroboam.

Look closely at the division, the differences. The truth is that Reoboam “made the yoke of the people heavy.”

While Jeorboam on the other hand, “removed the yolk completely and invented new holy days, and appointed anyone person he wished, to be priest.” This is against Torah.

The exact same thing is true today. Jews add to the Torah with their takanot and ma'asim, the traditions and laws or men. This against Torah.

You all must agree, at least those of us who study the Word, that Judah and Isra'el are still divided.

According to Prophecy these two will be made one again in the future. They will have one Torah, and one King, and they will keep the original Sabbaths.

The New Covenant is a perfect example of what happened to Yisra'el because of Reoboam and Jeroboam.

Please let me explain the true New Covenant from the proper perspective.

There is only one covenant of “the promise” as given to the Son's of ELohim from Abraham through the Messiah. I am speaking knowing that Yahushua is the Messiah, and i also follow Torah.

It is true that the New Covenant is not brand new. The New Covenant as prophecied even unto Mosheh (Moses) means that the Torah which was once written on two tablets of stone (Old Covenant) is now written in the hearts of men to walk in it with joy and love (New Covenant).

The Hebrew word for new when speaking of the covenant, and the moon, is CHODESH which means to shoot forth. Picture an old olive tree where new shoots spring up a ways away from the original, but never the less are of the same root.

These new shoots are the original tree living on and on and on.

So the New Covenant is the same covenant YHWH ELohim gave to Abraham in a new cycle, like the moon.

Joshua the son of Nun is a good example of how the new covenant works. The next generation renews their vows to our heavenly Father, before arriving in the promised land, and this goes on from generation to generation.

But there is more to this than meets the eye.

There was a time when YHWH ELohim “divorced Isra'el” because He saw her as a whore who bowed to other foreign might ones. This event occured AFTER the division of the 12 tribes between Reoboam and Jeroboam. Yisra'el today is also called Ephrayim, and Ephrayim are the inheritors of the covenant promise given to Abaham. YHWH told Abraham that he would become the father of many Gentiles! (translated poorly as nations)

YHWH ELohim did not divorce Judah at that time, because the Messiah had to come through the lineage of Judah and this had not happen yet. YHWH keeps His promises always, even to Isra'el whom He divorced.

Now moving forward to the death of Yahushua the Messiah. It dosen't take much studying to see that all the curses written in Torah against an “adulterous bride” came upon Him as He was nailed to the stake.

Yahushua Messiah came from the loins of David. He took the curse of the adulterous Bride, also called “The Lost Sheep of the House of Yisra'el.”

Physical baptisim teaches that we must die to self, in order to live. We must be immersed in the Name Yahushua. Wehen we do this, we are professing the belief that He died because we transgresse the original covenant. We profess that we will from now on walk in Torah which is what Yahushua did. We make Yahushua our Master and our Teacher.

We must be graffed back into the original Olive Tree, the Tree of Life. We repent and we return to the One true ELohim, YHWH of Hosts.

This change means that we have left the false religions of this world, wordhipping false might ones like the Gentiles that we had become. We will no longer worship their false elohim in keeping false holy days, and man-made sabbaths. We now walk in Torak, we walk in the light. We embrace all the Good things our ABBA first gave us at Mt. Siani.

This renewing of the covenant is only possible because we believe and be obey. We walk as a new person, completely forgiven of our sin debts, and may return to the covenant, this time out of love, a personal choice we all must make in order to live in YAH's kingdom.
Oh the grace and mercy of our Father is a wonderous thing to behold!

Yisra'el inheritance was given to each son individually by Jacob who is called Israel by YHWH ELohim. Read each carefully and you will see that to Judah the Prince of Shalom would come, and to Joseph and his offspring, namely Ephrayim, the inheritance of the promise of the covenant.

Remember these words, “When the fullness of the Gentiles (Ephrayim) comes in, then the Messiah will return.

The Lost Sheep must return and follow Yahushua Messiah back to true worship of YHWH ELohim as written in the covenant, the Torah.

Love to you all in the Messiah Yahushua and YHWH our Elohim.
Laurel
Now you know the truth.

Hi Laurel,
Greetings. Good post it is as per Christianity is concerned. But you have already assumed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah which is debatable here in this thread. I have brought out much argument on how Jews view that Jesus can not be their true Messiah since he had not fulfilled any major prophecies of Messiah. Jewish New Covenant is nothing to do with Christian alleged New Covenant. It is purely Christian writers took Hebrew scriptures in bits and parts to prove their ideas. I am sorry I can't agree with your views.

Peace to you
Adam

Apparently you have no understanding of the christians view of the covenant. My post does not agree with the christian view, because the view i posted is soley based on Torah.

There is nothing to debate as to whether or not Yahushua is the Messiah. Christains for the most part do not follow the Jewish Messiah, they follow a greek je_us, a pagan sabbath, and pagan holy days, none of which paint a true picture of Who the Messiah really is, or why He came, or even who He came for, or where He came from! They are clueless, and think they know it all.

I do not blame Jews for saying that this je_us is not the Messiah.

But the Messiah i know IS, and i know some things that neither Jew nor Gentile can ever learn until their eyes are opened like mine are.

I spent thousands of hours “prooving Scripture” for myself, and most ppl could care less to spend that kind of dedication to learning truth.

Once i came out of Babylon, everything came into perspective. I actually had to do something, which is against any christian thought. and i had to learn the Scripture all over again from what the church taught me growing up.

The Jews think they are rich, but they are poor. More does not always mean enough, and sometimes less is greatest.

Studying Judaisim does not bring one closer to our ABBA, and studying from christian pastors, pope, bishops, minister, decons, etc. is like the blind leading the blind.

None of you want to admit your wrong, and that is exactly what you must do to get to the truth. Jews and Christians alike must come out of the false doctrine that their perspective religions have taught for generations!

I think you read my post on the covenants and it went in one eye, bypassing your heart, then down the drain!
Hopefully a word or two will stick and cause you to have nightma
res and make you want to learn why i could say the things i did with such confidence. Believe me, what i wrote is not taught in ANY christian churches anywhere.

November 30, 2010 at 12:20 pm#227121

Participant

Adam,

The Jews are rather confused on the issue of the new covenant as they have different teachings about it. Christians also disagree with one another about it. To make a general statement and say Jews and Christians disagree is true as you can always find disagreement between two groups that have various interpretations in them.

Jesus taught the new covenant, as well as interpreted the Law of Moses while he lived in this world. He stated that he was only sent to the lost Hebrew people which explains why he only conducted his teachings in Samaria, Judah, and Galilee. The 11 and other Christians did not reach out to the other nations until they were called to by God and that was after the new covenant was established by the Jesus act of mercy in which he sacrificed his own life in opposition to God’s real enemies, a very Jewish action.

I mention this to point out that Jesus preached the message of the new covenant just like the angels preached the message of the old covenant to the 12 tribes as Mt. Sinai. He thus preached to the nations of Judah and Israel, though the covenant applied to individuals, just like the old covenant. The old covenant was set in motion in the presence of the Hebrew people that were there when Moses sprinkles the blood of bulls and binds even those that were not present on that day. The new covenant was also sent in presence of the Hebrew and even those not present are judged by whether they accepted or rejected it. When the power of the new covenant came, a power the old covenant lacks, it came to a gathering of Jews and converts to Judaism and not to the Gentiles or even to Gentiles mixed with the Jews. This is consistent with the modern Jewish interpretation of Jeremiah’s words in chapter 31 you wrote of earlier.

As for fulfilled prophecies, Jesus’ childhood and ministry of the new covenant are foretold in Isaiah 9 as God speaks of the joy of the Anointed’s birth and of the blessing that brings Galilee of the Gentiles even though we also know he would be born in Bethlehem. The inhabitants of Samaria are also mentioned though the land they inhabit was formerly known as Israel. It is mentioned even though the age it is mentioned is not the age of the Messiah’s childhood spoken of earlier in the same chapter by Isaiah but an age of Israel suffering the anger of God that occurred long before the Anointed is conceived. The transition between these two eras covered in prophecy is at the end of verse 7. Isaiah speaks of the Messiah even before verse 1.

You have not you addressed Isaiah 42 which speaks of God’s servant who God states he will make a light to the Gentiles, just as the Messiah is a light to the people of Galilee of the Gentiles. He is also a servant whom God will also make a covenant for the people. Jesus was made a covenant in that he taught the terms of the new covenant and then sealed them with his blood and act of mercy through self sacrifice. He is also made King of everything in heaven and on earth in fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 42:3-4. If you read I Isaiah 42 then you will see that a flawed interpretation of scriptures has given some Jews a faulty description of the Anointed as verse 4 makes it clear that the Messiah must struggle and persist in the effort to establish justice on earth, i.e. the Messianic age. These fallen Jews seem to teach that no such struggle will take place even as it takes place to this day as Jesus strives to bring people of all nations into his law; the new covenant. In him the righteous put their hope, Isaiah 42:4.

So those three prophecies are fulfilled or are being fulfilled just as God stated beforehand. That all three speak of the Messiah is clear since they are obviously all three linked by the Jewish Messiah being made a covenant for the people and a light to both the Children of Israel and the Aliens, i.e. Gentiles.

I pointed out that at least one of the so called major prophecies that the so called Jews of today claim to be in regards to the Anointed contradicts what God actually stated as God did not state all would be accomplished immediately, or even during the Messiah’s time on earth, but instead claimed that the Anointed would not stop striving until the deed was accomplished and we know Jesus is still striving. Another place that these heretic Jews have added to prophecy as regard the Messiah is they state that the Anointed must be a Son of Solomon. You will not find scripture that states that such is the case just as you will not find scripture that states the Anointed will accomplish all that God promises immediately or even in his time on earth. That makes the teaching you choose to compare the writings of the New Testament with incredible as their spirit does not test true to God.
I already pointed out that the aggadic midrashim method of interpretation is a legitimate interpretation method. This method of interpretation is used for the purpose of expressing historic incidents, folklore, moral exhortations, and practical advice. From reading the contexts I would say Matthew was using it to express interesting historic incidents in the life of Jesus; and in those cases we have previously discussed. That is probably not actually considered evidence to support Jesus being the Anointed and Matthew and his hearers at the time knew that being familiar with the teaching method being used. In addition God often spoke of certain future events in “bits and parts” of what you choose to call Hebrew scripture even though both New and Old Testaments fit that description. Are you complaining about his methods?

I could not see how to make this post shorter while covering everything I felt needed to be covered. Please except my apologies for such a long post. Please read it all as I believe it is necessary for our conversation.

December 1, 2010 at 5:19 am#227222

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2010,22:20)

Adam,

The question that they disagree is not the issue though. The real issue is what God’s interpretation is. A number of modern Jews agree with the new covenant that the new covenant will be active in the Messianic Age; an age that is ushered in by the Jewish Messiah. According to the New Testament the Messiah ushered in the new covenant by sacrificing himself to seal it just like the old was sealed with the blood of bulls. The instruction to those that have undergone a circumcism of the heart is to live by the spirit so they will not sin. If everyone lives by the new
covenant then the Messianic Age will be upon us.
Jesus taught the new covenant, as well as interpreted the Law of Moses while he lived in this world. He stated that he was only sent to the lost Hebrew people which explains why he only conducted his teachings in Samaria, Judah, and Galilee. The 11 and other Christians did not reach out to the other nations until they were called to by God and that was after the new covenant was established by the Jesus act of mercy in which he sacrificed his own life in opposition to God’s real enemies, a very Jewish action.

Hi brother Kerwin,
I appreciate your long thought provoking post above. In fact I believed and accepted all of that in my heart till yesterday as a born again believer in Christ. I still hope them to be true. But as I have done much study on Biblical doctrines and various Christian concepts I found them to be doubtful at first impression and false at worst. I have already shown how the writers of Gospels and even Epistle writers were not honest in applying Hebrew scriptures since they wanted to prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah. I have read number of Jewish books on Messiah and Messianic traditions right from Maimonides. Jews refuted Christian Messiah right from first century of Christianity. Christianity had borrowed much from Hellenism and Gnosticism. That is the reason why all those mythological doctrines like Trinity, Preexistence, divinity of Messiah, human blood for sin atonement, bodily resurrection etc.

You have stated that

“According to the New Testament the Messiah ushered in the new covenant by sacrificing himself to seal it just like the old was sealed with the blood of bulls. The instruction to those that have undergone a circumcism of the heart is to live by the spirit so they
will not sin. If everyone lives by the new
covenant then the Messianic Age will be upon us.

I ask you wherein of Hebrew scriptures it is written that Messiah's death required for inauguration of New Covenant?

I will give you one example to prove Christianity is a Pagan religion; I quote this from John 6 which also a full blown preexistence proof Chapter. John 6:

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Do you think this is supported by Hebrew scriptures which forbid eating even the blood of animals?

I have shown how foolish was the writer of Matthew to claim Jesus sat on two donkeys. Do you think he was honest quoting Hosea 11?

1 When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 The more they were called,
the more they went away;
they kept sacrificing to the Baals
and burning offerings to idols.

Why he has not taken into consideration of next verse do you think that was the prophecy of Messiah?

You claim some so called midrashim to support your views. But I can't agree with your logics. Please read authorized Jewish opinion but not some Christian biased Jewish approach. I know there are some so called Messianic Jews who incorporated even Trinitarian Christianity. You want to go in that trap too.

N.T is fully mythological you can not prove your unitarian beliefs because they don't support your views. You can see how brothers Mike, T8 and others refuted you with N.T scriptures.

How can you accept this blunder of Jesus being involved in God's creation as claimed by N.T writers as given below?

Jesus Christ was the Creator of all things:

“In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made
.… He was in the world, and the world was made through Him” (John 1:1-10)

“… one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things” (1 Corinthians 8:6)

“… God who created all things through Jesus Christ” (Ephesians Ch. 3:9)

“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Colossians 1:16)

“… His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds” (Hebrews 1:2)

“But to the Son He says: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain” ” (Hebrews 1:8-11)

Jesus Christ is now the Sustainer of all things

“And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist (hold together).” (Colossian 1:17)

“… upholding (sustaining) all things by the word of His power” (Hebrews 1:3)

Do you still deny so called preexistence of Jesus as claimed in these clear verses?

Here are some of the scripture database given by brother Mike;
John 1:1-3 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

John 1:9-12 NIV
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 1:14 NIV
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:15 NWT
15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)

John 3:13 NIV
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

John 3:16-19 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

John 5:19-20 NIV
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.

John 6:32-33 NIV
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

John 6:35 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:38 NIV
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

John 6:41-42 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

John 6:46 NIV
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 6:48-51 NIV
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 6:62 NIV
62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

John 8:23 NIV
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:38 NIV
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

John 8:42 NET
Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.”

John 8:58 NWT
58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

John 16:28 NIV
“I came from the Father and entered the
world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

Romans 1:3 NIV
regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

Romans 8:3 NIV
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.

Romans 9:5 NASB
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 10:3-4 NIV
3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:3 NIV
3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15:47 NIV
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Galatians 4:4-5 NIV
4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Philippians 2:6-8 NIV
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

1 Timothy 3:16 NWT
16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’

Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Hebrews 1:10 NIV
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Hebrews 2:14 NIV
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

Hebrews 10:5 NIV
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;

1 John 2:12-13 NIV
12I write to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13I write to you, fathers,
because you have known him who is from the beginning.

Jude 1:25 NIV
25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Revelation 3:14 NWT
14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

Revelation 22:16 NIV
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So far you could not prove yourself right in denying preexistence in this forum how can I believe your doctrines are right?

I am sorry for that.
Peace to you
Adam

December 1, 2010 at 5:50 am#227223

Participant

Laurel,

You battle against those who claim to be Christian but strive to make a Jew a Gentile while yourself striving to make a Gentile a Jew. That is not the way of Christ.

The sum of the Law is Love and though the Sabbath holiday is based on love it is not in is specifics a righteous requirement of the law.

Never the less a Jew has pledghed to God to uphold the Law of Mosses by being being born or adopted a Jew. In addition the Sabbath is the Law of the Land in both Judah and Israel.

December 1, 2010 at 10:16 am#227236

Participant

Adam,

You assume that God has to tell us in detail what will happen in the future, at least in regards to the Messiah. I assure you he does not. The Jews will affirm this as they believe God keeps some things to himself.

So even if it does not state that the Messiah must die to bring in the Messianic Age does not mean it will not happen.

As a start read Isaiah 42 which pointed out is linked to another Messianic prophecy and also is linked to a prophecy of the new covenant. In verses 3 he is called a bruised read that will not break and a smoldering wick that will not snuff out. That shows that he will go through both trials and tribulations. In order to understand more you must believe certain scripture is Messianic in nature. Whether you do or not is up to you though asking God to give you a believing heard and knowing for certain that he will enable you to understand them as he intends you to and not as those that are not so enabled.

Jesus is obvious speaking in spiritual terms in John 6:53-56 and not in literal terms as you choose to understand them. His point being that If you hunger and thirst for righteousness then you will believe in him and obey all his teachings. He states that when he is speaking more clearly as well. He just chose to speak in mysticism, i.e. religious allegory terms, in this case. He has his reasons and they are from God. In addition it is similar to the Jewish practice of using parables to teach.

You do not properly understand the Madrash method of interpretation when applied to Jesus’ biography. Matthew was not attempting to use it to prove that Jesus is the Son of God but he was using it instead to stress a point in his life Matthew thought was important by comparing a particular time in Jesus’ life to Hosea 11:1. Jew of the time who would have understood him though not in these so called more rational times.

I tend to use various sources as the modern Jews cannot be trusted just like any other human being that is not led by the Spirit of God. I doubt they will deny their own history though since it is clear from their various Holy books. The various Midrash Rabbag dated 6th to 10 century as far as their current text is concerned.

I see how I frustrate Mike Boll, T8, Irene, Pierre, and others by pointing out the spiritual meaning of scriptures they are convinced have worldly meanings. There is a reason Jesus spoke in parables and symbolic languages and he tells us that reason in the gospels. His students were also known the use symbolic language as well. You were using a worldly interpretation of John 6:53-56 I addressed above.

I simply do not add to scripture but find another scripture that will render the one that is hard to understand true instead of reaching a conclusion based on conjecture. I know that Colossians 1:16 is true if it is speaking of the new creation.

Hebrews 1:8-11 is another use of Madrash but this time to teach a moral point that preexistences do not catch, i.e. Jesus is not, and was not, a spiritual being, aka angel. This particular scripture itself, ignoring the argument it is a piece of, seems to support preexistence. Looks are deceiving.

The situations with the Preexistent database as those that believe in preexistence interpret those verses in their own way and I interpret them differently. Just reading the scriptures therefore only convinces me they mean just what I believe they do.

Preexistence is proven wrong because it causes scripture to be broken. A child cannot exist before its parents. At present the preexistences are denying Jesus is the Son of David. The closest the come to admitting it is to say Jesus’ body is the son of David. They seem to believe a unique spiritual being put on the body of Jesus and walked on earth. How does that make such a hypothetical creature a human being? From my experience many human being choose to internalize contradiction rather than admitting a dearly held belief is flawed. It is irrelevant since my purpose is to get them to look at scripture from God’s point of view. They will or they will not and that is their choice.

December 9, 2010 at 5:11 am#228153

Participant

Hi brother Kerwin,
Here is another allegation on Christianity;

J.L. Hinman wrote:
-“Zak 4 indicates that the Messiah's name would be Jesus. It says “this is the name of the man who brings the branch.” The phrase “brings the branch” is well known to be a euphanism for Messiah. the name of the man to whom they refer is, the highpreist of the era in which Zerubabel was to rebuild the temple, his name was Joshua. Of course you know that's anglicized version of Yeshua , which is Jesus.”

It has been proposed by some Bible Scholars that the name 'Jesus' refers to a title rather than a real name. The name “Yehoshua”, and it's hellenised form Jesus, means “Yahweh saves”, or “Savior” in it's shortened form.

This hypothesis is supported by the New Testament itself. Philippians 2 states that Jesus didn't recieve his name / title until after his resurrection and ascension into Heaven.

Philippians 2
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
[9] Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
[10] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[11] and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What Paul or some other early Christian writer had done was to bastardize a passage in Isaiah , in an attempt to turn Jesus into a god.

Here is the original passage in Isaiah.
“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.’” Isaiah 45:22-23

Yahweh swears that all will bow the knee to him, whereas Paul says that all will bow their knee to the Lord Jesus!
This isn’t the only place where Paul wrote that Christ was exalted by Yahweh to the highest level and realm of authority.

“and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.” Ephesians 1:19-23

Notice that the original passage is strictly monotheistic. Yet the author of these Pauline passages selectively quotes only part of it in an attempt to deify Jesus. This is simply one more example of early Christians twisting Old Testament scripture in their agenda of a newly created god-man.

These were not prophecies, but were deliberate distortions of the Jewish scriptures perpetrated by early Christian cultists in order to give their new religion a false appearance of authenticity. No educated Jew in early Christian times would have fallen for this sort of sophistry, and history shows us that the vast majority of them didn't.

Zechariah 3:8 was a self fullfilling prophecy. The Early Christian cultists intentionally named themselves the 'Branchites' in response to this and other pasages.

'Nazarenes (Branchites) and Ebionites'

Source: http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008….ty.html

December 9, 2010 at 10:47 am#228187

Participant

Adam,

Scripture is written so that it is only understood by those that share God’s point of view. Even during the days of Jesus there were those that disagreed over what it stated. For instance the Sadducees believed there was no resurrection of the dead while the Pharisees believed the dead would be resurrected. Since the misinterpretation of scripture by those who do not share God’s point of view is common there are many erroneous interpretations of scripture. To say that a scripture is in error when the accuser misinterprets it proves nothing as the accuser themselves is not creditable. In this case those claiming to debunk Christianity have no standing due to their lack of understanding.

One example of this is that Philippians 2:5-11where the definition of “name” is implied. It is not speaking of being God as the false accuser assume but rather of Jesus being made King of everything in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. The same point is made in Ephesians 19:23.

Your belief is what is necessary. It is obvious that the interpretation of unbelievers is flawed in the case of the interpretation of Ephesians 1:19-23 which is not a bastardization of Isaiah 45:22-23. Paul being a Jew would have seen the interpretation of these false accusers as of deceptively accusing him of blaspheme as he simply would not be thinking along their corrupt lines. Since that is so, how can the passage be interpreted so it agrees with Isaiah 45:22-23? In addition who is it that puts all things under Jesus’ feet and is that individual putting himself under Jesus as well? Paul answers that in Hebrews 1 for those that are not wise enough to figure it out by what is wrote. In addition Paul is referencing Psalms 110:1 which also makes his point clear.

From what I have heard the Nazarenes and Ebionites were Jewish Christians and so were Jewish converts to Christianity. Groundlessly accusing them of being non-educated because they choose to interpret scriptures differently is questionable behavior as correctly understanding scripture is not a matter of education but it is a matter of point of view. If they did name themselves Branchites after the Branch mentioned in Zechariah 3:8, i.e. Jesus, it is not self fulfilled prophecy but rather the same thing as one calling themselves a Christian.

Unbelievers can twist scripture and other things for infinity in order to continue to throw mud at God and his people. Answering such ignorant and/or corrupt individuals becomes a waste of time for fault finders can always find ways to either create a mountain out of a molehill or make up flaws that do not exist.

December 9, 2010 at 4:15 pm#228209

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 09 2010,15:11)

Hi brother Kerwin,
Here is another allegation on Christianity;

This hypothesis is supported by the New Testament itself. Philippians 2 states that Jesus didn't recieve his name / title until after his resurrection and ascension into Heaven.

What Paul or some other early Christian writer had done was to bastardize a passage in Isaiah , in an attempt to turn Jesus into a god.

Zechariah 3:8 was a self fullfilling prophecy. The Early Christian cultists intentionally named themselves the 'Branchites' in response to this and other pasages.

'Nazarenes (Branchites) and Ebionites'

Source: http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008….ty.html

I believe Shaul (Paul) knew exactly to Whom he was writing about when he wrote his words. Even Shimon Kepha (Peter) said that “men would twist Shaul's words to their own destruction.”

So i say do not follow the interpretation of them who twist Shaul's words. Knowing that YHWH is salvation, and Yahushua a man, re read Shaul's word and see what i see. We are to bow to YHWH ELohim, and know that Yahushua is YHWH's “sent one.”

And of course we shall remember the word's of Yahushua Messiah when He said, “Woe to the scribes.”
It was inevitable that selfish men would translate the Word according to their own doctrines as was prophecied, and was written in the book of Macabees.

ISA 30:1 “Woe to the stubborn children,” declares יהוה, “to make counsel, but not from Me, and to devise plans, but not of My Spirit, in order to add sin to sin; 2 who are setting out to go down to Mitsrayim, and have not asked My mouth, to be strengthened in the strength of Pharaoh, and to seek refuge in the shadow of Mitsrayim! 3 “And the strength of Pharaoh shall become your shame, and the refuge in the shadow of Mitsrayim your confusion. 4 “For his princes were at Tso῾an, and his messengers came to Ḥanes. 5 “They were all ashamed of a people who do not profit them, not for help or profit, but a shame and also a reproach.”
6 The message concerning the beasts of the South. Through a land of trouble and distress, from which came the lioness and lion, the adder and fiery flying serpent, they convey their riches on the backs of young donkeys, and their treasures on the humps of camels, to an unprofitable people, 7 even Mitsrayim, whose help is vain and empty. Therefore I have called her Rahaḇ-Hĕm-Sheḇeth.
8 And go, write it before them on a tablet, and inscribe it on a scroll, that it is for a latter day, a witness forever: 9 that this is a rebellious people, lying children, children who refuse to hear the Torah of יהוה, 10 who say to the seers, “Do not see,” and to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us what is right. Speak to us what is smooth, prophesy deceits. 11 “Turn aside from the way, swerve from the path, cause the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl to cease from before us.”
12 Therefore thus said the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl, “Because you despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and rely on them, 13 therefore this crookedness is to you like a breach ready to fall, a bulge in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly, swiftly.” 14 And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter’s vessel, which is broken in pieces, without sparing, so that there is not found among its fragments a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water from the cistern.

1Maccabee's 1:38 Insomuch that the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled because of them: whereupon the city was made an habitation of strangers, and became strange to those that were born in her; and her own children left her.
1Ma 1:39 Her sanctuary was laid waste like a wilderness, her feasts were turned into mourning, her sabbaths into reproach her honour into contempt.
1Ma 1:40 As had been her glory, so was her dishonour increased, and her excellency was turned into mourning.
1Ma 1:41 Moreover king Antiochus wrote to his whole kingdom, that all should be one people,
1Ma 1:42 And every one should leave his laws: so all the heathen agreed according to the commandment of the king.
1Ma 1:43 Yea, many also of the Israelites consented to his religion, and sacrificed unto idols, and profaned the sabbath.
1Ma 1:44 For the king had sent letters by messengers unto Jerusalem and the cities of Juda that they should f
ollow the strange laws of the land,
1Ma 1:45 And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the sabbaths and festival days:
1Ma 1:46 And pollute the sanctuary and holy people:
1Ma 1:47 Set up altars, and groves, and chapels of idols, and sacrifice swine's flesh, and unclean beasts:
1Ma 1:48 That they should also leave their children uncircumcised, and make their souls abominable with all manner of uncleanness and profanation:
1Ma 1:49 To the end they might forget the law, and change all the ordinances.
1Ma 1:50 And whosoever would not do according to the commandment of the king, he said, he should die.

1Ma 1:57 And whosoever was found with any the book of the testament (TORAH), or if any committed to the law (TORAH), the king's (of Greece/Rome/Babylon/Eqypt “beast”)commandment was, that they should put him to death.
1Ma 1:58 Thus did they by their authority unto the Israelites every month, to as many as were found in the cities.
1Ma 1:59 Now the five and twentieth day of the month they did sacrifice upon the idol altar, which was upon the altar of God (Elohim).
1Ma 1:60 At which time according to the commandment (of the king Antiochus) they put to death certain women, that had caused their children to be circumcised.
1Ma 1:61 And they hanged the infants about their necks, and rifled their houses, and slew them that had circumcised them.
1Ma 1:62 Howbeit many in Israel were fully resolved and confirmed in themselves not to eat any unclean thing.
1Ma 1:63 Wherefore the rather to die, that they might not be defiled with meats, and that they might not profane the holy covenant: so then they died.
1Ma 1:64 And there was very great wrath upon Israel.

1Ma 2:10 What nation hath not had a part in her (Jerusalem's) kingdom and gotten of her spoils?
1Ma 2:11 All her ornaments are taken away; of a free woman she is become a bondslave.
1Ma 2:12 And, behold, our sanctuary, even our beauty and our glory, is laid waste, and the Gentiles have profaned it.

1Ma 3:45 Now Jerusalem lay void as a wilderness, there was none of her children that went in or out: the sanctuary also was trodden down, and aliens kept the strong hold; the heathen had their habitation in that place; and joy was taken from Jacob, and the pipe with the harp ceased.
1Ma 3:46 Wherefore the Israelites assembled themselves together, and came to Maspha, over against Jerusalem; for in Maspha was the place where they prayed aforetime in Israel.
1Ma 3:47 Then they fasted that day, and put on sackcloth, and cast ashes upon their heads, and rent their clothes,
1Ma 3:48 And laid open the book of the law, wherein the heathen had sought to paint the likeness of their images.

***Note the last verse i posted from Maccabee's where THE HEATHEN sought to paint their “images” in the book of the TORAH, and the “churches are still doing this unto this very day!

So they replaced the Holy Name of Yahuweh with a generic title LORD, and they changed the Name of the Messiah Yahushua which means “Yahuweh is salvation” giving His esteem to a man, and to themselves!

And there are more abominations which the Gentiles/heathen/nations have done.

They changed the 7th Day Sabbath to the First Day of the week, and they forsook Yahuweh Elohim's Feasts and like Jeroboam and Antiochus, and Constantine they made themselves feasts on different days and appointed themselves priests who are not Levites according to Torah.

Wake up people! Come out of Babel and live!

In the Name of YAHshua every knee shall bow means that in the Messiah's Name is the Name Yahuweh to Whom we shall bow! Yahushua said, “I came in My Father's Name.”

December 9, 2010 at 4:32 pm#228211

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2010,20:47)

Adam,

You need to know that in the time Yahushua Messiah was on the earth that those who controlled Jerusalem were Romans and the Jews who were under authority of Rome, holding Rome's hand so to speak.

The LAST righteous Levite durring the Messiah's time was Zachariah, father of John the Baptiser, and they killed Zachariah between the porch and the altar, and they beheaded John his son (the cousin of Yahushua) in prision. Read about it in the Brit Chodesh,

It was not until the death of John that the Messiah began His ministry. Yahushua Messiah being the High Priest in the Order of the Malek Tzedek (Rein of Rightousness).

The Messiah said,
Mat 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in the blood of the prophets.ʼ
Mat 23:31 “Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who did murder the prophets –
Mat 23:32 and you fill up the measure of your fathers!
Mat 23:33 “Serpents, brood of adders! How would you escape the judgment of Gehenna?
Mat 23:34 “Because of this, see, I send you prophets, and wise men, and scholars of Scripture.1 Some of them you shall kill and impale, and some of them you shall flog in your congregations and persecute from city to city, Footnote:1See 13:52.
Mat 23:35 so that on you should come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Heḇel to the blood of Zeḵaryah, son of Bereḵyah, whom you murdered between the Dwelling Place and the altar.
Mat 23:36 “Truly, I say to you, all this shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 “Yerushalayim, Yerushalayim, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her! How often I wished to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you would not!
Mat 23:38 “See! Your house is left to you laid waste,
Mat 23:39 for I say to you, from now on you shall by no means see Me, until you say, ‘Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of יהוה!

Thus fulfilling this prophecy.
Eze 8:15 Then He said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? You are to see still greater abominations than these.”
Eze 8:16 And He brought me into the inner court of the House of יהוה. And there, at the door of the Hĕḵal of יהוה, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the Hĕḵal of יהוה and their faces toward the east, and they were bowing themselves eastward to the sun.
Eze 8:17 And He said to me, “Have you seen, O son of man? Is it a small matter to the house of Yehuḏah to do the abominations which they have done here? For they have filled the land with violence, and turn back to provoke Me. And see, they are putting the branch to My nose.
Eze 8:18 “Therefore I shall indeed deal in wrath. My eye shall not pardon nor would I spare. And they shall cry in My ears with a loud voice, but I shall not hear them.”

And i know that Christian today worship the “sun” which is why they changed the Sabbath to their sun-day!!!!!

Look:
Eze 23:8 “And she did not forsake her whorings from Mitsrayim, for in her youth they had lain with her, and they squeezed her maiden nipples, and poured out their whorings on her.
Eze 23:9 “Therefore I have given her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Ashshurians, for whom she lusted.
Eze 23:10 “They uncovered her nakedness, they took away her sons and daughters, and slew her with the sword. And she became a byword among women, and they executed judgments on her.
Eze 23:11 “And her sister Oholiḇah saw this, yet she became more corrupt in her lust than she, and in her whorings more corrupt than her sisterʼs whorings.
Eze 23:12 “She lusted for the sons of Ashshur, officers and rulers, the ones near, perfectly dressed, horsemen riding on horses, all of them desirable young men.
Eze 23:13 “And I saw that she was defiled, they both took the same way.
Eze 23:14 “But she increased her whorings, and she looked at men carved on the wall, images of Chaldeans portrayed in red,
(santa claws)

December 10, 2010 at 4:44 am#228307

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Dec. 10 2010,02:32)

Hi Laurel,
Again your N.T has misquoted Hebrew scriptures on Zechariah son of Jehoiada as quoted in Matt 23:35

“And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.”

But the reality is here in 2 Chr 24:

“20But they plotted against him, and by order of the king they stoned him to death in the courtyard of the LORD’s temple. 22King Joash did not remember the kindness Zechariah’s father Jehoiada had shown him but killed his son, who said as he lay dying, “May the LORD see this and call you to account.”

23At the turn of the year,a the army of Aram marched against Joash; it invaded Judah and Jerusalem and killed all the leaders of the people. They sent all the plunder to their king in Damascus. 24Although the Aramean army had come with only a few men, the LORD delivered into their hands a much larger army. Because Judah had forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers, judgment was executed on Joash. 25When the Arameans withdrew, they left Joash severely wounded. His officials conspired against him for murdering the son of Jehoiada the priest, and they killed him in his bed. So he died and was buried in the City of David, but not in the tombs of the kings.”

So one more evidence for these fabricated scriptures of Christianity.

December 10, 2010 at 5:19 am#228312

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 10 2010,14:44)

Quote (Laurel @ Dec. 10 2010,02:32)

Hi Laurel,
Again your N.T has misquoted Hebrew scriptures on Zechariah son of Jehoiada as quoted in Matt 23:35

But the reality is here in 2 Chr 24:

So one more evidence for these fabricated scriptures of Christianity.

Yes, too many times we find that the tanslators changed words in order to hide Scriptural truths, many probably not on purpose, but just out of ignorance, and teaching their own doctrines based on what they were taught; but YHWH ELohim makes the dark places light, and their efforts at hiding truth are in vain.

They seek to change His Appointed Times, and even His Set-apart Name by changing it to LORD. Woe to the scribes!

December 10, 2010 at 5:21 am#228313

Participant

Going to bed soon, gotta go feed my goats! Layla Tob. Good Night.

December 10, 2010 at 10:24 am#228336

Participant

Laurel,

It appears you are holding to the letter of the law and not the spirit. I have no idea why it is so hard for people to understand that God will fill them with his love if they have faith in his Son and so in him. The sum of the law is love your neighbor as yourself and the Sabbath day is not so much about love as it is a gift of love from God to the Hebrews and residents of the land of Israel. It is not a duty beyond the fact showing contempt for God’s gifts is evil.

A person who lives according to the Spirit will not overwork or overwork others except for a noble cause. If you celebrate a day to the Lord then who has the right to condemn you for so honoring him but do not condemn those who choose to celebrate another day to the Lord.

So what did Yahushua mean when he stated God desires mercy and not sacrifice?

We should start a new thread to discuss these issues.

Hope your goats enjoy the service you provide them.

December 10, 2010 at 11:06 am#228340

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2010,20:24)

I have no idea why it is so hard for people to understand that God will fill them with his love if they have faith in his Son and so in him.

Hi brother Kerwin,
Where from Christianity got this new idea of having faith in Messiah to have faith in God. They replaced God with Jesus. You are indirectly supporting Hellenistic Trinity which made Jesus God.

December 10, 2010 at 11:18 am#228341

Participant

Adam,

Do you even bother testing your sources that launch derogatory attacks on those who write the New Testament? If you had then you would have realized that x has already proposed one solution to the dilemma of which Zacharias Jesus was speaking of. I tend do not put much stock in her solution as it is a tenuous solution that cannot be connected except for the name. A better solution is Zacharias the prophet who wrote a book of the same name and is actually the son of a man named Berekiah, Zacharias 1:1. The father of the man killed mentioned in 2 Chronicles is Jehoiada. The Jewish Targum Yonatan indicates the prophet I believe it to be was killed in the temple.

There is a difference of interpretation involved as some think Zacharius son of Iddo mentioned in the Targum Yonatan is the same as mentioned in 2 Chronicles and that hypothetically his great-grandfather is Iddo, his grandfather is Jehoiada, and his father is Berekiah. Scripture declares Zacharius the prophet’s grandfather is Iddo.

This took me a few minutes to test. In addition I asked you about the correct interpretation a scripture you formerly submitted from a less than creditable source. And have yet to receive an answer.

By the way, the clause “having faith in Jesus” means having faith that Jesus is the Anointed One of God. It is God living in Jesus that does his good works. You should both of these things already.

December 10, 2010 at 11:49 am#228345

Participant

Hi brother Kerwin,
I know you are biased towards Christianity that's why you don't find fault with N.T scriptures. You also bring some material which supports your views. There is no difference here. But you ignore that prophet Zechariah is entirely different from priest Zechariah which I quoted from 2 Chr 24. The Zechariah you quoted to support your views is from the time of post-exile than what I quoted from pre-exile. You are only closing your eyes to the truth what I bring out here. Historians and critics have already proved N.T to be a forged and fabricated scripture.

I am sorry to say that.

December 10, 2010 at 6:58 pm#228365

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2010,20:24)

Laurel,

So what did Yahushua mean when he stated God desires mercy and not sacrifice?

We should start a new thread to discuss these issues.

Hope your goats enjoy the service you provide them.

20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes1 , and clever in their own sight!
22 Woe to the mighty to drink wine, and brave men to mix strong drink,
23 who declare right the wrong for a bribe, and the righteousness of the righteous they turn aside from him!
24 Therefore, as a tongue of fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, their root is as rottenness, and their blossom goes up like dust – because they have rejected the Torah of יהוה of hosts, and despised the Word of the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl. Isa 5

3 Let no one deceive you in any way, because the falling away is to come first, and the man of lawlessness is to be revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called Elohim or that is worshipped, so that he sits as Elohim in the Dwelling Place of Elohim, showing himself that he is Elohim. 5 Do you not remember that I told you this while I was still with you? 6 And now you know what restrains, for him to be revealed in his time. 7 For the secret of lawlessness is already at work – only until he who now restrains comes out of the midst. 8 And then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Master shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth and bring to naught with the manifestation of His coming. 9 The coming of the [lawless one] is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, 10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, in order for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,2 12 in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but have delighted in the unrighteousness. 2 Thes. 2

97 O how I love Your Torah2 ! It is my study all day long.
98 Your commands make me wiser than my enemies; For it is ever before me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers, For Your witnesses are my study. Psalm 119

105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.
106 I have sworn, and I confirm, To guard Your righteous right-rulings.
107 I have been afflicted very much; O יהוה, revive me according to Your word.
108 Please accept the voluntary offerings Of my mouth, O יהוה, And teach me Your right-rulings.
109 My life is in my hand continually, And Your Torah I have not forgotten.
110 The wrong have laid a snare for me, But I have not strayed from Your orders.
111 Your witnesses are my inheritance forever, For they are the joy of my heart.
112 I have inclined my heart to do Your laws Forever, to the end.
113 I have hated doubting thoughts, But I have loved Your Torah.
114 You are my hiding place and my shield; I have waited for Your word.
115 Turn away from me, you evil-doers, For I observe the commands of my Elohim! Psalm 119

8 Owe no one any [matter] except to love one another, for he who loves another has filled the Torah. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other command, is summed up in this word, “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” 10 Love does no evil to a neighbour. Therefore, love is completion of the Torah.
Romayim 13:7

5 “Only, diligently guard to do the command and the Torah which Mosheh the servant of יהוה commanded you, to love יהוה your Elohim, and to walk in all His ways, and to guard His commands, and to cling to Him, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your being.”
6 And Yehoshua blessed them and sent them away, and they went to their tents.
Yahushua 22:5

2 By this we know that we love the children of Elohim, when we love Elohim and guard His commands. 3 For this is the love for Elohim, that we guard His commands,1 and His commands are not heavy,
4 because everyone having been born of Elohim overcomes the world. And this is the overcoming that has overcome the world: our belief. 5 Who is the one who overcomes the world but he who believes that יהושע is the Son of Elohim. 1 John 5

7 Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning. 1 John 2

15 “If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.1 16 “And I shall ask the Father, and He shall give you another Helper, to stay with you forever – 17 the Spirit of the Truth, whom the world is unable to receive, because it does not see Him or know Him. But you know Him, for He stays with you and shall be in you. 18 “I shall not leave you orphans – I am coming to you. John 14

December 10, 2010 at 6:59 pm#228366