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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2010,07:34) Hi GM,
Obedience to the Torah cannot make you perfect or give you eternal life.
The standard now is perfection.
Life is in the Spirit.
Hi brother Nick,
Please read whole psalm 119 you will understand how blessed one who keeps the law of God. Here goes like this..” 1 [a] Blessed are they whose ways are blameless,
who walk according to the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they who keep his statutes
and seek him with all their heart. …..”Only Paul and other Christian writers invented all Christian bogus teachings.
Hi GM,
Indeed they could be made worthy by obedience and some will be raised and blessed with the Spirit.[Jl2]
But the bar has been raised to perfection and you were never among the Jews to who the law was given were you?
What hope do you have of being safe by the jews being given the Law? The law applies to those to whom it has been given [Rom2]Hi GM,
A new way has been made through the body of Jesus.
The temple curtain is torn and choice is gone.
Stop looking back to what was never yoursGollamundi wrote:
Quote If you stop sinning God will forgive sins.
True.
Gollamundi wrote:
Quote This is what you quoted above if so where is the question of Jesus mediatorship in forgiving sins?
His self-sacrifice sealed the new covenant and put it into effect. The gift of the new covenant is the spirit of righteousness and if you choose to walk by that spirit you stop sinning; but not of yourself but rather through God doing his works in your flesh. This act of grace from God is done through your faith and if you believe God will do as he promised it is credited to you as righteousness even before God has completed his work.
Gollamundi wrote:
Quote All verses you quoted are Hebrew scriptures not Christian
I did not check if those passages varied significantly between the English and Hebrew translations nor do I care since the same ideas are expressed in the New International Version of Scripture which I use.
Gollamundi wrote:
Quote God does not demand sacrifice but obedience if so where is the question of accepting Jesus' human sacrifice?
Why did God accept the “human sacrifice” of Samson when he killed himself in Judges? In short I am hoping you can figure this one out yourself instead of being deceived by euphemisms.
Gollamundi wrote:
Quote God's giving of new heart and new spirit nothing to do with Christianity is available for all Jews according to their scriptures. So what Christianity claim is nothing but bogus.
Have you read all of scripture to find that out? If so you must be missing Jeremiah 31:31 that explicitly mentions a new covenant. Or are you forgetting the so called Jews live under the old covenant and do not acknowledge the new that Jesus sealed with his own blood.
New heart and new spirit is something to do with God's action on human beings it doesn't require any mediatorship. Your repeated quoting of Samson for sin atonement is nothing but your speculation on human sacrifice. It can be considered as suicide but not any sacrifice for sin.
Quote (gollamudi @ April 20 2010,04:33) New heart and new spirit is something to do with God's action on human beings it doesn't require any mediatorship. Your repeated quoting of Samson for sin atonement is nothing but your speculation on human sacrifice. It can be considered as suicide but not any sacrifice for sin.
Hi Gollamudi,Do you consider Jesus' sacrifice also a suicide?
Hi GM,
You should seek the wisdom of God – it is of scripture[Lk11].
Your preference for you own understanding means you seriously lack.
You will not learn much that is useful from those who missed the Christ.all
the Jews and the gentiles are all facing the same faith;
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”Gollamundi wrote:
Quote New heart and new spirit is something to do with God's action on human beings it doesn't require any mediatorship.
You seem to be contradicting yourself since you know the Jews of today link the Messiah to the Messianic age and yet when I point out that Jesus initialized the Messianic age by becoming a mediator of the new covenant you state that the new covenant does not require a mediatorship. I am curious how you reached that conclusion as I do not remember it being mentioned in scripture.
I do remember that Moses was the mediator of the old covenant even though you state a mediator is not needed and part of the old covenant states that God will raise up a prophet like Moses from among the people and that they are to listen to him as the people did not want to directly hear the voice of the Lord any more or see the great fire, Deuteronomy 18:15-16. The Lord did as the people asked and yet you state it was not required.
Gollamundi wrote:
Quote Your repeated quoting of Samson for sin atonement is nothing but your speculation on human sacrifice. It can be considered as suicide but not any sacrifice for sin.
I point at it because it is self-sacrifice. Samson chose to give his life in order to defeat the enemies of God. He would have had no means to do that but the Lord granted his prayer for that purpose. Samson had faith that if God desired then Samson would have not perished on that day or simply would not have been granted the power to collapse the building. Samson’s act in giving his life for God was an act of mercy in defending the people and doctrine of the one true God.
Self-sacrifice is “to sacrifice of oneself or one's own interests for the benefit, or the supposed benefit, of others” according to yourdictionary.com.
No one sacrificed Jesus as you keep stating, i.e. human sacrifice, but instead he gave his own life, i.e. self-sacrifice. He like Samson gave his own life in order to defeat the enemies of God. Samson’s sacrifice killed a number of Philistines who threatened the Hebrew people and thus their doctrine while Jesus’ sacrifice shattered the chains of sin on the human soul by bringing into effect the new covenant.
1 John 3:16(NIV) reads:
Quote This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2010,16:47) Self-sacrifice is “to sacrifice of oneself or one's own interests for the benefit, or the supposed benefit, of others” according to yourdictionary.com. No one sacrificed Jesus as you keep stating, i.e. human sacrifice, but instead he gave his own life, i.e. self-sacrifice. He like Samson gave his own life in order to defeat the enemies of God. Samson’s sacrifice killed a number of Philistines who threatened the Hebrew people and thus their doctrine while Jesus’ sacrifice shattered the chains of sin on the human soul by bringing into effect the new covenant.
1 John 3:16(NIV) reads:
Quote This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
The above portion I can agree on self sacrifice about Samson but what about Jesus whether we can call it a self sacrifice. We know he was arrested based on his claims as king of Jews and alleged Messiah a political leader.Roman authorities had arrested him based on complaints. He was tried and executed as criminal. Was it a self sacrifice or vicarious atonement for sins of mankind?The mediatorship I was talking is about approaching God through somebody or believing some mediator to achieve eternal life. It is nothing but the invention of Christian writers. In O.T one doesn't need to believe to approach God. He was available to all who call on His name.
Gollamundi wrote:
Quote He was available to all who call on His name.
That is true but he still requires mediators or did you not read in the law where he states the priests are to make atonement for the whole assembly of the people if the people sin intentionally even if they are not aware of their sin and late become aware of it, Leviticus 4:20. The priest also makes atonement for the individual in Leviticus 4:31 even though it is the individual who sacrifices the female goat. He does the same for the leader of the assembly in verse 26 though the sacrifice is a male goat. I believe that the priests served as mediators in other capacities as did Moses.
Acting in the name of Jesus is merely claiming to be subject to him as King. God made Jesus King of everything in heaven and on earth and to reject his rule is to reject God.
In 1 Samuel 8 we are told that the people wanted a king as they did not want to serve God directly and God told gave them a king. God still gives us that King though thankfully he is not the unjust King the Lord warned us of on that day.
Gollamundi wrote:
Quote The above portion I can agree on self sacrifice about Samson but what about Jesus whether we can call it a self sacrifice. We know he was arrested based on his claims as king of Jews and alleged Messiah a political leader. Roman authorities had arrested him based on complaints. He was tried and executed as criminal. Was it a self sacrifice or vicarious atonement for sins of mankind?
I assure you that the Roman authorities are not and never were the priests of my religion and therefore have no power to make a sacrifice for the community.
Jesus is another thing, since he is the promised one of God and thus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, Psalms 110:4.
Jesus had the power to avoid death and even spoke against Peter’s resistance to the authorities who came to arrest him. Even though he had that power he chose not to use it even with full knowledge that not employing it would lead to his own death and suffering. He did this to defeat the hold sin had on his people and so set them free to live according to the spirit of righteousness.
I agree brother Kerwin, but where on earth it was told to call on name of Messiah to achieve salvation or eternal life in O.T. How can you treat Jesus death as sacrifice when he was executed by Roman authorities on criminal offences may be not proved? It is all the misinterpretation of Christian writers to prove Jesus as Messiah or godman.
Quote (gollamudi @ April 20 2010,23:51) I agree brother Kerwin, but where on earth it was told to call on name of Messiah to achieve salvation or eternal life in O.T. How can you treat Jesus death as sacrifice when he was executed by Roman authorities on criminal offences may be not proved? It is all the misinterpretation of Christian writers to prove Jesus as Messiah or godman.
Hi AdamCheck out the following scriptures, and maybe they will help:
Isaiah 53, Psalm 110, Deut. 18:18-19, Daniel 7:13
Love in Christ,
MartyHi GM.
If you are clothed with Christ why would you think you needed to call out for salvation?
He cannot be lost.Quote (gollamudi @ April 20 2010,23:51) I agree brother Kerwin, but where on earth it was told to call on name of Messiah to achieve salvation or eternal life in O.T. How can you treat Jesus death as sacrifice when he was executed by Roman authorities on criminal offences may be not proved? It is all the misinterpretation of Christian writers to prove Jesus as Messiah or godman.
Hi Gollamudi.
May I try and answer this question? If you look at the book of Hebrews, in the new testament, written to the Jews, in Heb.8:8-13… “Lo! the days are coming,” the Lord is saying, “And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant,
9 Not in accord with the covenant which I make with their fathers In the day of My taking hold of their hand To be leading them out of the land of Egypt, Seeing that they do not remain in My covenant, And I neglect them,” the Lord is saying,
10 “For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days,” the Lord is saying: “Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.
11 And by no means should each be teaching his fellow citizen, And each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord!' For all shall be acquainted with Me, From their little to their great,
12 For I shall be propitious to their injustices, And of their sins and their lawlessnesses should I under no circumstances still be reminded.”
13 In saying “new,” He has made the former old. Now that which is growing old and decrepit is near its disappearance.Now this scripture was prophesied exactly the same in Jeremiah 31:31. Please look it up.
My understanding of Gods plan, was to make the Jews, Gods chosen people, a nation of kings and priests, they rejected the promised Messiah, and God divorced them, and turned to the 'nations'. When Christ returns, He will make the “New Covenant with them again, (the scriptures I have just given, Heb.8:8-13) and this promise wil be done.
Then Jesus, as their “King”, will with the Jews as the 'nation of priests' rule in the millenium for the thousnad years, teaching the gentile nations.Of course, all this was predestined, scripture says “all is of God, all is by Him, through Him, and for Him.
Now I and not infallible, prone to error as anyone, and I'm not exactly sure if I understand this correctly. But let me know if this helps, I admire you for stating your beliefs, we all stuggle to know the truth.
Our God is a loving God, and He will save all mankind. His ways are not our ways, and only He gives us our understanding as He wants, and as to what as He desires at the time.God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (gollamudi @ April 20 2010,18:51) I agree brother Kerwin, but where on earth it was told to call on name of Messiah to achieve salvation or eternal life in O.T. How can you treat Jesus death as sacrifice when he was executed by Roman authorities on criminal offences may be not proved? It is all the misinterpretation of Christian writers to prove Jesus as Messiah or godman.
You are showing bias with the words “misinterpretation of Christian writers”.God stated that he desires mercy and not sacrifice. Paul teaches us that even if you sacrifice yourself and have not love then it profits your nothing. Jesus sacrificed himself to put the new covenant into effect. He sealed it with his blood but that blood was willingly shed in an act of love.
Moses also sealed the first contract with blood but that blood was the blood of an animal and not the blood that resulted from an act of mercy.
I find it contradictory that you choose to believe Moses' action and not Jesus' even though they are both similar and Jesus' was foretold.
You also level more false accusations agaiinst the writers of scripture by accusing them of attempting to prove Jesus is a godman.
As for Jesus being the Anointed One that is plane to those who hunger and thirst for righteousness while it is hidden from those who love the deeds of darkness.
Reasonably the writers of New Testiment Scripture were not trying to prove Jesus is the Anointed One since they were writting to those who believed Jesus is the Anointed One. At most they strove to reinforce that belief. The gospels are biographies of Jesus and his ministry and probably wrote for the same reason other biographies are written.
Hi brothers Chosen One, Nick, 942767 and Kerwin,
I appreciate your concern on me to understand N.T. Infact I ask these questions to satisfy my inner struggle to put together what is written in the whole Bible. But I find more queries than the earlier ones. I find our scriptures are human words about God but not literal words of God. Therefore there are discrepencies and contradictions. They may be inspired to some extent but not all.Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2010,16:39) Quote (gollamudi @ April 20 2010,18:51) I agree brother Kerwin, but where on earth it was told to call on name of Messiah to achieve salvation or eternal life in O.T. How can you treat Jesus death as sacrifice when he was executed by Roman authorities on criminal offences may be not proved? It is all the misinterpretation of Christian writers to prove Jesus as Messiah or godman.
You are showing bias with the words “misinterpretation of Christian writers”.God stated that he desires mercy and not sacrifice. Paul teaches us that even if you sacrifice yourself and have not love then it profits your nothing. Jesus sacrificed himself to put the new covenant into effect. He sealed it with his blood but that blood was willingly shed in an act of love.
Moses also sealed the first contract with blood but that blood was the blood of an animal and not the blood that resulted from an act of mercy.
I find it contradictory that you choose to believe Moses' action and not Jesus' even though they are both similar and Jesus' was foretold.
You also level more false accusations agaiinst the writers of scripture by accusing them of attempting to prove Jesus is a godman.
As for Jesus being the Anointed One that is plane to those who hunger and thirst for righteousness while it is hidden from those who love the deeds of darkness.
Reasonably the writers of New Testiment Scripture were not trying to prove Jesus is the Anointed One since they were writting to those who believed Jesus is the Anointed One. At most they strove to reinforce that belief. The gospels are biographies of Jesus and his ministry and probably wrote for the same reason other biographies are written.
How about this verse in Fourth Gospel ?Jn 20:31
“But these are written that you may (come to) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name. “
Where from such ideas have come to this writer?
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