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Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 06 2009,15:23) Here is another argument of a Jew Jesus' genealogy, as we have it in the Christian Scriptures, does not allow him to be the Messiah:
1) If the virgin birth is true (which is highly unlikely since it goes against the grain of supporting Jesus’ messianic claim) then Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
2) If you trace Jesus' line through Joseph (by which you claim Jesus inherits the throne by adoption) in Matthew's genealogy, then you run into the curse of Jeconiah, and Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
3) If you trace Jesus’ line through Luke's genealogy (regardless of whether you attribute it to Joseph or Mary) Jesus cannot be the Messiah because it doesn't include King Solomon; it includes his brother, Nathan, eliminating any legitimate claim to the throne.
Please comment
Adam
I would say that God took the promise away from King Solomon because of his disobedience and gave it to Nathan thus ensuring that a descendant of David sat on the throne forever.Hi brother Kerwin,
I appreciate your response. Can you please tell me which O.T scripture back the view of Luke that (Christ)Messiah would come through Nathan son of David?GM: When you see(understand) the Spirit(God) of the Truth that Jesus taught you will find all the requirments fulfilled. Jesus said my word are spirit and life..!(John 6:63) Jesus said God is Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit of truth. Jesus said when the spirit comes he will teach you all things. If we are born of spirit and recreating our former physical belief systems with the New Spirit Truth we will see and understand all God Truth. The New Covenant of Spirit Truth is come. Old covenand physical beliefs must now be interpreted spiritually to understand the New covenant way of God. The old temple(physical building) is now each individual human body. Jesus rebuilt(his body) the New Temple in three days. The old law of physical works trying to get to God was until John the Baptist, since then the(Spirit) Kingdom(within)is taught. The old physical church buildings are now individual human bodies. Any rituals,holy days,offerings,sacrifices, of the old attempted way to God are completed fully in Jesus and offered pre-paid to all who will accept and believe. Spiritually speaking, a jew is not a jew that is outward(or bloodline), but inward by circumcision of the heart(believing). There is no jew or gentile or bond or free or male or female, all are ONE in the New Kingdom, by faith. Wars(lies,deceptions) against spiritual truth will come into the mind to defeat this Truth but he who holds fast overcomes. Spirit of God is the New Covenant way of salvation,healing and peace with God, for whosoever will come by believing in Jesus. Can you name any Jew that did the works of Jesus and can you show me where God chose any bloodline as his people. All Gods people were by faith. Jesus did many powerful supernatural works among the people, a definite seal of approval from God. To each his own, I choose Jesus as my lord. God Bless you, TK
gollamudi wrote:
Quote I appreciate your response. Can you please tell me which O.T scripture back the view of Luke that (Christ)Messiah would come through Nathan son of David?
David had four sons of whom Nathan was one. When David told Solomon of the promise his words were if you are careful to obey the Lord. Solomon clearly was not careful and so forfeited the promise through his bloodline as I pointed out. That leaves 3 other sons that could have been chosen. I have not checked the two other sons but Nathan does fit the criteria though Solomon had the edge until his fall from grace.
2 Chronicles 6:14-17(NIV) reads:
Quote He said:
“O LORD, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth—you who keep your covenant of love with your servants who continue wholeheartedly in your way. You have kept your promise to your servant David my father; with your mouth you have promised and with your hand you have fulfilled it—as it is today. “Now LORD, God of Israel, keep for your servant David my father the promises you made to him when you said, 'You shall never fail to have a man to sit before me on the throne of Israel, if only your sons are careful in all they do to walk before me according to my law, as you have done.' And now, O LORD, God of Israel, let your word that you promised your servant David come true.If you wish we can discuss Solomon’s brazen disobedience of the Law from going down to Egypt to get horses to marrying to many foreign women and pandering to their false gods. For being a wise man he sure did some mighty foolish things. I believe his son even did worse than him by oppressing his fellow Hebrews the Israelites after listening to the bad advice of his councilors.
I do not believe there is any more support for Nathan being the one through who the promise was fulfilled but I do know Solomon had the throne of David taken from his descendants though God showed some mercy in letting them retain a hold on Judea.
Do you know of a descendant of Solomon who currently sits on the throne of David because I know that a descendant of Nathan does?
To all,
God chose to lead me to some of Jeremiah's prophecy in Chapters 22 and 23 where he specifically told Jeconiah that none of his son's would sit on David's throne. They were in fact exiled to Babylon and Zedekiah(Mattaniah) his uncle became king though Jaconiah is still referred to as king. Zedekiah rebelled and was also dragged off to Babylon as well as having his sons killed, As I can tell he is the last son of Solomon to sit on the throne of Judah.
Chapter 23 of Jeremiah is about the Righteous Branch, who to me sounds like the Anointed One.
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 07 2009,22:45) GM: When you see(understand) the Spirit(God) of the Truth that Jesus taught you will find all the requirments fulfilled. Jesus said my word are spirit and life..!(John 6:63) Jesus said God is Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit of truth. Jesus said when the spirit comes he will teach you all things. If we are born of spirit and recreating our former physical belief systems with the New Spirit Truth we will see and understand all God Truth. The New Covenant of Spirit Truth is come. Old covenand physical beliefs must now be interpreted spiritually to understand the New covenant way of God. The old temple(physical building) is now each individual human body. Jesus rebuilt(his body) the New Temple in three days. The old law of physical works trying to get to God was until John the Baptist, since then the(Spirit) Kingdom(within)is taught. The old physical church buildings are now individual human bodies. Any rituals,holy days,offerings,sacrifices, of the old attempted way to God are completed fully in Jesus and offered pre-paid to all who will accept and believe. Spiritually speaking, a jew is not a jew that is outward(or bloodline), but inward by circumcision of the heart(believing). There is no jew or gentile or bond or free or male or female, all are ONE in the New Kingdom, by faith. Wars(lies,deceptions) against spiritual truth will come into the mind to defeat this Truth but he who holds fast overcomes. Spirit of God is the New Covenant way of salvation,healing and peace with God, for whosoever will come by believing in Jesus. Can you name any Jew that did the works of Jesus and can you show me where God chose any bloodline as his people. All Gods people were by faith. Jesus did many powerful supernatural works among the people, a definite seal of approval from God. To each his own, I choose Jesus as my lord. God Bless you, TK
You seem to choose Jesus as your God, is this true?Quote (Gene @ Oct. 07 2009,03:20) CT………..Very well put, I believed you have Nailed it, as Jodi would say. Good in depth post, Sounds solid and accurate. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
I agree. Good job.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2009,01:07) Hi BD,
Kind of you to share your deceptions.
But we hope to follow Jesus through death and resurrection while your hope seems to be in your own righteousness.
I believe mixed in with those deceptions is some glimmer of the truth. The teaching that Jesus accomplishes everything in one lifetime has the seeming of truth if you look at his brief death as being part of that lifetime.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2009,22:48) Do you know of a descendant of Solomon who currently sits on the throne of David because I know that a descendant of Nathan does?
Hi brother Kerwin,
What is this statement ?
You seem to claim more than what our Bible doesn't claim. Here is how a Jew negates the Christian's explanation on Solomon being cut off fom the Genealogy of Messiah.Promises to David's successors were conditional ?
In order to protect the sanctity and necessity of the “Virgin Birth” in Christian theology, Christian missionaries claim that the successors of King David are ineligible progenitors of מָשִׁיחַ(Mashi'ah). They argue that, although the promise G-d made to David was eternal, the promise that He made to David's sons, i.e., to the successors to his throne, was conditional and depended on stipulations and contingencies that had to be met. Since Solomon in particular, as well as many of the other kings of Judah, “did that which was evil before the L-rd”, the Messiah of Christianity, who has to be “perfect”, i.e., without the “blemish of sin”, cannot have an earthly father out of this “tainted” lineage. According to the claim, this unacceptable lineage had to be cutoff or terminated at some
point, and this problem was solved through the miracle of a “Virgin Birth”. Two verses are often cited to support the allegation about the different promises.The first of these is the unconditional promise to David:
Psalms 132:11 The L-rd has sworn in truth to David, from which He will not turn back, “Of the fruit of your body I shall seat upon your throne.”
This is followed by the alleged conditional promise regarding David's descendants:
Psalms 132:12 “
IF your sons will keep My covenant, and this, My testimony, that I shall teach them, THEN also their sons will forever sit upon your throne.”However, there is a problem here – the consequences are for violating the stipulations in Psalms 132:12 are missing. Is this an openended set of conditions, the violation of which will result in unspecified consequences? As is often the case, Christian missionaries convey only part of the full story –
the portion that suits their claim. Surely, the Hebrew Bible should be more specific here, as it is elsewhere, such as the prophetic passage quoted in 2 Samuel 7:12-16, in which both the promise and consequences of disobedience are specified; other passages in the Hebrew Bible do the
same. For instance, regarding the promise to David:Psalms 89:29-30
– (29) “I will forever keep My kindness to him [David], and My
covenant will remain true to him. (30) And I shall make his seed endure forever, and his throne like the days of heaven.”The consequences for not obeying follow the promise:
Psalms 89:31-33
– (31) “If his sons will forsake My Torah, and will not walk in My judgments, (32) If they profane My statutes, and do not keep My commandments, (33) Then I shall punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with plagues.”Note the similarity between Psalms 89:33 and 2 Samuel 7:14. But wait!
There is more here. G-d abounds with kindness, love, and mercy:
Psalms 89:34-38
– (34) “And I shall not completely remove My loving kindness
from him, and I shall not betray My faithfulness. (35) I shall not profane My covenant, nor shall I alter the utterances of my lips. (36) One thing have I sworn by My holiness that
I would not be deceitful to David. (37) His seed will be forever, and his throne like the sun before Me. (38) Like the moon, which is established forever, and witness in the sky, eternally true.”Do these proclamations convey the message that the Davidic lineage will be cutoff when David's successors transgress, and that it will resume in the future with a sinless being who is born of a virgin?
No, there is no need to speculate about the consequences that accrue for the disobedience that was spoken of in Psalms 132:12; these were already described earlier.Conclusion: Those Kings of Judah who followed King David and
transgressed G-d's Law were punished as promised. However, the Hebrew Bible reiterates that the Davidic dynasty, from which מָשִׁיחַ will eventually emerge, will not be eliminated. King David was promised that his seed and throne would endure forever. G-d doesn’t lie.Issues concerning Solomon and Rehoboam:
a. Has Solomon been disqualified as the progenitor to ?מָשִׁיחַ
Christian missionaries claim that, because he was expected to obey G-d's Law and failed to do so, Solomon was disqualified from being the forefather of מָשִׁיחַ . Is this claim a Scriptural fact, or is it fiction?After relating Solomon's grandeur and successful accomplishments during his early years as King of Israel (1 Kgs 1:3810: 25), the Hebrew Bible tells
of his failures (1 Kgs 11:110).The account starts with his acquiring many
horses – a violation of the prohibition the Torah placed on kings of Israel (Deut 17:16), it continues with his marrying many women, likewise a violation of the Biblical prohibition placed upon the kings (Deut 17:17). many, if not most, of whom were foreign women, yet another violation of a
prohibition in the Torah (Deut 7:3). This is followed by an account of G-d's anger with Solomon and the consequences:1 Kings 11:11-13
– (11) And the L-rd said to Solomon, “For as this has been
with you and you have not observed My covenant and My statutes which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and shall give it to your servant. (12) However, in your days I will not do this, for the sake of David
your father; from the hand of your son I shall tear it. (13) But I shall not tear the entire kingdom away from you; one tribe I shall grant to your son for the sake of David My servant, and for the sake of Jerusalem, [the city] which I have chosen.This is a severe punishment, indeed, but there is no mention anywhere in the Hebrew Bible of any forfeiting of the right to kingship or disqualification from being the progenitor to מָשִׁיחַ . Even the righteous King David sinned, although not on as grand a scale as did his son Solomon and many of his successors, yet he was promised to be the ancestor of .מָשִׁיחַ
Conclusion: This claim is a bogus issue. According to the Hebrew Bible, the iniquity of Solomon and some of his legitimate successors did not disqualify any of them from being the progenitor to .מָשִׁיחַ
Please think over
AdamHi brother Nick,
Yes Jesus is the son of david. But we have to explain to a Jew how he is ? Our N.T doesn't give proper explanation and often self controdictory. Even as a Christian I am often fed up with reconcilling these inconsistent N.T claims.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2009,01:28) gollamudi's source wrote: Quote Be the seed (a direct descendant) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., 2 Sam 7:12-16)
Your source is ignorant of what scripture actually states or he is conveniently forgetting that the promise through King Solomon was negated by King Salomon's own actions.
1 King 11:31-39(NIV) reads:
Quote Then he said to Jeroboam, “Take ten pieces for yourself, for this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'See, I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon's hand and give you ten tribes. But for the sake of my servant David and the city of Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, he will have one tribe. I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon's father, did.
” 'But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon's hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who observed my commands and statutes. I will take the kingdom from his son's hands and give you ten tribes. I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name. However, as for you, I will take you, and you will rule over all that your heart desires; you will be king over Israel. If you do whatever I command you and walk in my ways and do what is right in my eyes by keeping my statutes and commands, as David my servant did, I will be with you. I will build you a dynasty as enduring as the one I built for David and will give Israel to you. I will humble David's descendants because of this, but not forever.' ”
In addition your source did not say what scriptures backed up his claim that the promise must be through Solomon. The Messiah is a descendant of David but not necessary a descendant of Solomon who lost the kingdom for his descendants because of his rebellious behavior.
John in his Revelations refers to certain Jews as the synagogue of Satan and for good reason.
Articulate and Abmirable.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 07 2009,23:49) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2009,01:28) gollamudi's source wrote: Quote Be the seed (a direct descendant) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., 2 Sam 7:12-16)
Your source is ignorant of what scripture actually states or he is conveniently forgetting that the promise through King Solomon was negated by King Salomon's own actions.
1 King 11:31-39(NIV) reads:
Quote Then he said to Jeroboam, “Take ten pieces for yourself, for this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'See, I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon's hand and give you ten tribes. But for the sake of my servant David and the city of Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, he will have one tribe. I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon's father, did.
” 'But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon's hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who observed my commands and statutes. I will take the kingdom from his son's hands and give you ten tribes. I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name. However, as for you, I will take you, and you will rule over all that your heart desires; you will be king over Israel. If you do whatever I command you and walk in my ways and do what is right in my eyes by keeping my statutes and commands, as David my servant did, I will be with you. I will build you a dynasty as enduring as the one I built for David and will give Israel to you. I will humble David's descendants because of this, but not forever.' ”
In addition your source did not say what scriptures backed up his claim that the promise must be through Solomon. The Messiah is a descendant of David but not necessary a descendant of Solomon who lost the kingdom for his descendants because of his rebellious behavior.
John in his Revelations refers to certain Jews as the synagogue of Satan and for good reason.
Articulate and Abmirable.
Sorry for the typo (admirable).
Hi GM,
How causes many to stumble about many things.
Unless the grace of God accompanies the message the sowers work in vain.We do not have to answer all questions as God does the work, not us
gollamudi wrote:
Quote This claim is a bogus issue. According to the Hebrew Bible, the iniquity of Solomon and some of his legitimate successors did not disqualify any of them from being the progenitor to מָשִׁיח
.That is an interesting argument but it ignores what King Solomon himself stated that the promise was conditional with these words “'You shall never fail to have a man to sit before me on the throne of Israel, if only your sons are careful in all they do to walk before me according to my law, as you have done.'”. “If” is a conditional phrase.
So according to the Jewish argument you advanced, God lied. That does not fly with me.
In addition Jeremiah prophesied.
Jeremiah 22:28-30(NIV) reads:
Quote
Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot,
an object no one wants?
Why will he and his children be hurled out,
cast into a land they do not know?
O land, land, land,
hear the word of the LORD!
This is what the LORD says:
“Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah.”Since God does not lie that knocks out the line of kings of Judah as an option unless you go to another line that does not have “Jehoiachin” in it. If you can do that then you can go to “Nathan” as a son of David.
As I stated earlier I believe that, other than Jesus, Zedekiah(Mattaniah) is the last son of David that sat on David’s throne. My knowledge is incomplete, so do you know any others?
Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 07 2009,23:37) Hi brother Nick,
Yes Jesus is the son of david. But we have to explain to a Jew how he is ? Our N.T doesn't give proper explanation and often self controdictory. Even as a Christian I am often fed up with reconcilling these inconsistent N.T claims.
Well actually, no offense, but I do not see anywhere I need to explain anywhere or anything to a Jew or anyone else for the matter.If a Jew is Anti-Messianic then that is what he is. I am not on this earth to argue genealogy with anyone.
Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, [are] they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And [there were] wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually. 2Chronicles 12:15
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Matthew 3:9
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do]. 1Timothy 1:4
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:9
Let the Anti-Messianics argue his lineage on the day of his return. I am sure his word will be final.
Also he was the only one resurrected and taken up with many witnesses, lineage or not thats enough proof for me that he is the Messiah!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 08 2009,13:49) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2009,01:28) gollamudi's source wrote: Quote Be the seed (a direct descendant) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., 2 Sam 7:12-16)
Your source is ignorant of what scripture actually states or he is conveniently forgetting that the promise through King Solomon was negated by King Salomon's own actions.
1 King 11:31-39(NIV) reads:
Quote Then he said to Jeroboam, “Take ten pieces for yourself, for this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'See, I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon's hand and give you ten tribes. But for the sake of my servant David and the city of Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, he will have one tribe. I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon's father, did.
” 'But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon's hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who observed my commands and statutes. I will take the kingdom from his son's hands and give you ten tribes. I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name. However, as for you, I will take you, and you will rule over all that your heart desires; you will be king over Israel. If you do whatever I command you and walk in my ways and do what is right in my eyes by keeping my statutes and commands, as David my servant did, I will be with you. I will build you a dynasty as enduring as the one I built for David and will give Israel to you. I will humble David's descendants because of this, but not forever.' ”
In addition your source did not say what scriptures backed up his claim that the promise must be through Solomon. The Messiah is a descendant of David but not necessary a descendant of Solomon who lost the kingdom for his descendants because of his rebellious behavior.
John in his Revelations refers to certain Jews as the synagogue of Satan and for good reason.
Articulate and Abmirable.
Thank you. I thought your earlier post on the same subject was wonderful.The spelling error is irrelevant in my point of view as long as I can understand what you mean. I have sadly, made larger errors. It is humble of you to apologize for your small offense.
Hi GM,
Faith fills in the gaps.Jesus explained to the men on the way to Emmaeus where he was spoken of in the OT and they believed him.
They did so not because he ticked every box and proved every point in triplicate but because God was at work in the words he spoke and they warmed their hearts.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 08 2009,19:25) Well actually, no offense, but I do not see anywhere I need to explain anywhere or anything to a Jew or anyone else for the matter.
Hi brother Const.,
That is a suicide on the part of any religious person. That proves the words of Karl Marx on religion being the Opium.
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