The jewish messiah

[gollamudi]

WHAT IS A MESSIANIC PROPHECY?
Shmuel Silberman

Both Jews and missionaries profess belief in the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible. It is surprising, then, that the term “the Messiah” does not appear in Jewish Scripture. “The Messiah” is a post-Biblical term for a Biblical concept. From where do billions of people get such an idea? When we look at what the Messiah is actually called, and what is his setting and function, we will see that missionaries have it wrong.

The word messiah means “anointed.” Both kings and priests are anointed in the Hebrew Bible (I Samuel 10:1, Leviticus 4:3). Literally speaking, the Jewish people have had many messiahs. In the future too, Israel will have more than one messiah. The prophets speak of priests, not only a king, who will serve in the Messianic era (Ezekiel 48, Jeremiah 33).

However, Jews have historically used the term “the Messiah” to refer specifically to King Messiah son of David.

If the Messiah is never called “the Messiah” in Jewish Scripture, how does one determine which passages are about him? Since Jews and missionaries disagree on so many points, one would expect that each side would dispute the selections of the other. This is not the case. In fact, there is a striking asymmetry. Where Jews identify verses as speaking about the Messiah, missionaries agree. However, verses that missionaries identify as messianic, Jews often do not. Why is this so?

The simple reason is that the traditional Jewish messianism is solidly based in Scripture whereas missionary messianism is not. There is no reason to reject the Jewish messianic passages as messianic, so missionaries agree. There is very good reason to reject missionary citations as messianic, because they are not.

How does Judaism decide which verses are about the Messiah?

In almost all cases, Jewish Scripture refers to the Messiah as

(1) King, or synonym for king
(2) David, or descendent of David

Both of these terms sometimes refer to individuals other than the Messiah. Obviously there are other kings. Of course “David” may refer to the actual King David rather than the Messiah. Naturally there are descendants of David besides the Messiah.

Whether or not “King” or “David” refers to the Messiah depends on context.

To understand why the Messiah is called “David”, it is necessary to explain the status of the Davidic dynasty in the Bible. Genesis 49:10 reads, “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from amonghis descendents until Shiloh comes.” Royalty properly belongs to the tribe of Judah. Without discussing the etymology of “Shiloh”, it is clear that Shiloh is the culmination of Judah’s kingship. In other words, Shiloh is the Messiah.

David is from the tribe of Judah. The royal seat belongs specifically to David and his paternal descendents (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalms 89:36-39). G-d promised that the throne belongs to David and his descendents forever (II Samuel 7, Jeremiah 33). This does not mean David’s throne will always be functional- during the Babylonian exile the Jews had no king at all- but David’s line always retains the right to the throne. When the Messiah son of David comes, the royalty of David will be fully and permanently established.

An additional specification is that David’s throne is inherited exclusively by Solomon and his descendents (I Chronicles 22:10).

Solomon’s brothers (David’s other sons) are not eligible (28:5-7).

There are rules for Messianic eligibility. He must (a) belong to the tribe of Judah (b) descend paternally from David and Solomon © be a reigning King.

Jesus fails every single criterion bar none. He does not belong to the tribe of Judah, is not descended paternally from David or Solomon, and was never a King.

Tribal affiliation is based solely on the father (Numbers 1, Ezra 2). Since Jesus is supposedly born of a virgin, he has no father; hence no tribal affiliation. He cannot be a paternal descendent from David. The genealogy in Luke, which missionaries claim is Jesus' “natural” genealogy, traces Joseph back to Nathan. Nathan is Solomon's brother, but he is not Solomon.

Jesus was never a reigning king of Judah. Although Jesus claimed that his kingdom was “not of this world”, and Pilate is depicted as labeling Jesus as “king of the Jews” at the crucifixion, that is not kingship in the Biblical sense. In the Hebrew Bible Jewish kings are anointed by prophets, are accepted as kings by their subjects, and rule politically. It is circular reasoning to reinvent a definition of king and then claim Jesus fits the bill.

The Messiah defined by Ezekiel 37

37:21 And say unto them, Thus says the L-rd G-d; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them all around, and bring them to their own land: 37:22 AndI will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;and one king shall be to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more: 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, norwith their detestable things and their transgressions: butI will save them in all their dwelling places, where they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will betheir G-d. 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also follow My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them. 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, where their fathers have lived; and they shall live there forever, they, and their children, and their children’s children forever: and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My Sanctuary in the midst of them forever. 37:27 My Tabernacle also shall be with them: I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people. 37:28 And the nations shall know that I the L-rd do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shallbe in their midst forever.

Jews and missionaries accept, and Scripture clarifies (Jeremiah 33, Isaiah 11) that “David” does not mean David himself but his descendent.

From this passage, we get a definitive view of the Messiah:
A Davidic king will reign in a world of (a) universal peace (b) universal knowledge of G-d © the Temple rebuilt (d) the Jewish exiles gathered to the land of Israel.

Missionaries do not dispute this. They differ from Jews in maintaining that Jesus is positively the one who will do so in the future. This prompts the question how missionaries can possibly grant the Messianic title to one who has not accomplished what he is required to do.

Messiah called David or King

Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause a righteous branch to sprout for David; and he shall do justice and righteousness in the land.33:16 In those days, at that time, shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely: and she will be called, The L-rd Our Righteousness. 33:17 For so says the L-rd; there shall not be cut off for David a man to sit upon the throne over the house of Israel; 33:18 There shall not be cut off for the priests, the Levites a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, and tokindle meal offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. …33:25 So says the L-rd; If my covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not established the ordinances of heaven and earth; 33:26 Only then will I reject the children of Jacob, and David My servant, so that I will not take of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Jeremiah 33 is clear that a descendent of David will reign with the Temple service re-established and the Jews ingathered. The secu
rity of Jerusalem and saving of Judah suggest a situation of peace.

Isaiah
11:1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots: 11:2 And the spirit of the L-rd shall rest upon him, a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and might, a spirit of knowledge and fear of the L-rd; 11:3 He shall be filled with fear of the L-rd: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, or rebuke based on the hearing of his ears: 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and rebuke with equity for the humble of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his waste. 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the goat; and the calf and the young lion and the fattened ox together; and a young boy shall lead them. 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall graze together; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 11:8 And the baby shall play on the hole of the viper, and the infant shall put his hand on an adder’s den. 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the L-rd, as the waters cover the sea. 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, standing for an banner for the nations; it will be sought out, and his rest shall be glorious. 11:11 On that day the L-rd shall show His might again to redeem the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, and Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 11:12 And he shall set up a signal for thenations, and shall assemble the exiles of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Jesse is David’s father. Isaiah 11 speaks of a descendent of Jesse/David as political leader during the ingathering of the Jewish exiles. Wolf dwelling with lamb suggests a world at peace. Universal knowledge of G-d is predicted.

Hosea
3:4 For the children of Israel shall remain many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillars, without ephod, or teraphim: 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the L-rd their G-d, and David their king; and shall fear the L-rd and His goodness in the end of days.

Hosea is clear when the Davidic king rules: after the exile of “many days” and after the Jewish return to G-d. The Jewish return to G-d brings the Messianic era (Isaiah 59:20, Deuteronomy 30:1-10). “Fear of the L-rd” suggests widespread knowledge of G-d.

Zechariah
9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, your King comes to you: he is just, and redeemed; lowly, and riding upon an donkey, and upon a colt the foal of an donkey. 9:10 AndI will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the river [even] to the ends of the earth

Zechariah 9 teaches us that King Messiah’s worldwide reign coincides with war ending and peace established.

Missionaries incorrectly credit Jesus with fulfilling Zechariah 9:9, because the New Testament says Jesus rode into a Jerusalem on a donkey. Besides being an extremely unimpressive achievement in ancient Jerusalem, Jesus’ ride failed to fulfill 9:10 which promises peace on earth.

Other passages referring to the Messiah as King and/or David are: Numbers 24, Isaiah 55, Jeremiah 23, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 34. Micah 4:8, Micah 5, Amos 9 and Daniel 7.

The Messiah as Tzemach (sprout):

Jeremiah 33:15 says, “In those days, and at that time, will I cause a righteous branch to sprout (tzemach) for David; and he shall do justice and righteousness inthe land.”

Jeremiah above refers to the Messiah as a tzemach of David. This sets a precedent for calling the Messiah tzemach. The question is whether tzemach ever means the Messiah when David is not mentioned.

One instance where tzemach may refer to the Messiah is 4:2. “On that day, the sprout of the Lord shall be for beauty and for honor, and the fruit of the land for greatness and for glory for the survivors of Israel”. This is not conclusive, however. Although this passage is about the Messianic era, in context tzemach may mean the flourishing of the Land of Israel.

Tzemach appears two times in Zechariah. Zechariah 3:6-8 reads, “G-d’s angel bore witness for Joshua, saying: ‘This is what the G-d of Hosts said: If you walk in My paths and keep My charge, then you will take charge of My house and guard My courtyard, and I will permit you to stroll among those standing [angels]. Listen, now, Joshua the High Priest- you and your companions who sit before you, for they are men worthy of a miracle. Behold I bring My servant Tzemach.”

Joshua the High Priest served in the early days of the Second Temple. In this passage he is promised some sort of redemption. Tzemach can be either the Messiah or Zerubabel, the political leader of the Jews contemporary to Joshua. If Zerubabel, that man will rise in stature and succeed in his request to rebuild the Second Temple. If the Messiah, it means the events in the Messianic era will overshadow the partial deliverance represented by the Second Temple.

Reference to Tzemach is repeated in Zechariah 6:12-13: “And you shall speak to him saying, 'So says the L-rd of Hosts, saying: Behold a man whose name is Tzemach, and from his descendents will sprout the one who will buildthe Temple of the L-rd.”

Here Tzemach is arguably not the Messiah, as Tzemach’s descendents, not himself, will build the Temple. The opinion that Tzemach is the Messiah would translate tachtav (literally: underneath him) as “his place” rather than “his descendents.”

Whether Tzemach is the Messiah or Zerubabel, there is no evidence for the view that the Messiah will die sacrificially during the Second Temple period. Also, Jesus did not “build G-d’s Temple (verse 13).”

In some instances the Messiah is called by an alternate title. In such cases, it makes sense to identify that person as the Messiah because his function, time and place are identical to the person called by the common Messianic titles.

Messiah called Redeemer

The word “redeemer” is certainly appropriate for the Messiah. The question is, what does the redeemer do, and when?

Isaiah 59:
17. And He donned righteousness like a coat of armor and a helmet of salvation is upon His head, and He donned garments of vengeance as His attire, and He was clad with zeal as a cloak.18. According to their deeds, He shall repay, fury to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; to the islands He shall pay recompense.19. And from the west they shall fear the name of the L-rd, and from the rising of the sun, His glory, when distress shall come like a river; the spirit of the L-rd drives it away.20. And a redeemer shall come to Zion, to those who repent of transgression in Jacob, says the L-rd.21. “As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the L-rd. “My spirit, which is upon you and My words that I have placed in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth or from the mouth of your seed and from the mouth of your seed's seed,” said the L-rd, “from now and to eternity.”

The context is clear: the redeemer comes when G-d judges nations from east to west and rescues Israel. This did not happen at the time of Jesus. It will happen at the end of history.

Notice how the New Testament misquotes Isaiah: “The deliverer will come from Zion, he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sin (Romans 11:26-27).”

The difference is profound. Isaiah says the redeemer comes to those who themselves turn away from transgression. As the Talmud says, “Great is repe
ntance, for it brings redemption (Yoma 86b).’ The misquote in Romans “he will turn godlessness away from Jacob” creates the false impression that the Messiah comes to personally atone for Israel.

The covenant “My words that I have placed in your mouth” tells us that the Jews will forever study the Law of Moses. It is silly to suggest that G-d made a covenant that the Jews will eternally study the same Law that the New Testament declares “obsolete” (Hebrews 8:13). That is hardly a meaningful covenant. Clearly the Law is not obsolete.

Notice also that Romans deletes the real content of the covenant and replaces it with a Christian message: “when I take away their sin.” This is a blatant misquote of Isaiah 59:21.

The Messiah called by pronoun
The pronoun (He) may refer to the Messiah or G-d Himself (Isaiah 2:2-4, Micah 4:3). Either interpretation is acceptable, because (a) the Messiah is G-d’s instrument for transforming the world and (b) Scripture alternates between explicit references to G-d and to the Messiah as the one who ushers in the new world. These passage fits perfectly with other Messianic passages and certainly do not suggest a different role for the Messiah.

Isaiah 2:
2. And it shall be at the end of the days, the mountain of the L-rd'sHouse shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.3. And many peoples shall go, and say, “Come, let us go up to the L-rd's mount, to the House of the G-d of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths,” for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the L-rd from Jerusalem. 4. And he [G-d or the Messiah] shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation,neither shall they learn war anymore.

Isaiah 2 teaches the Temple will be rebuilt in an age of peace and universal knowledge of G-d.

Some Biblical books describe the Messianic era without referring to the Messiah (Deuteronomy 30, Zephaniah 3, Joel 3). The descriptions are totally consistent with passages that do reference the Messiah.

The Hebrew Bible gives us a clear and consistent view of the Messiah: what he does and when he does it. The Biblical passages indicate he will accomplish his mission at the end of history and in a short time. Since Jesus accomplished none of the Messiah’s tasks, missionaries must dogmatically insist that Jesus will do so when given a second chance. To this end they must revise the meaning and function of the Messiah to include what Jesus allegedly did already. The validity of this claim is assessed in part II of this essay.

Summary: Jesus is not eligible to be the Messiah because he is not descended paternally from David and Solomon and was not a reigning king. The Messiah comes at the end of history to reign during a rebuilt Temple, universal peace and knowledge of G-d, and ingathering of the Jewish exiles. He will accomplish his mission in a short time. Prophecies which are Messianic can be identified when describing an individual accomplishing such a mission. Jesus fulfilled no Messianic prophecies.

Source: http://anti-missionary.com/files/MessianicProphecy.html

[kerwin]

Gollamundi's source reads:

Quote

The simple reason is that the traditional Jewish messianism is solidly based in Scripture …

I already proved this claim as false.  

Where is it stated that the Messiah will accomplish all he has to do in a short time?  It does not and yet the Jews claim he does.  That is an extra-Scriptural belief of the so called Jews.

Where is it stated that the Messiah will come from Solomon's line of David?  It doesn't, which shows that belief to be another extra-Scriptural belief.

At that best this means your source is thus a combination of truths and untruths.  

But let's ignore the promise of the Messiah and see if the so called Jews believe in the promise of the Holy Spirit.  

I ask because that promise is the fulfillment of the Messianic Age.

So if they believe in the results of the promise then why do they not believe it when God states through the Holy One “Blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled”?  The only reason I can come up with is because they love to sin and so refuse to believe.  The question then becomes “do you believe”?

[gollamudi]

Hi borther Kerwin,
The promose of pouring of spirit of God(not Holy Spirit) is still a promise to Israelites in the end days when Messiah comes. As I have shown it is a mere misapplication of Joel 2 by Christians. They forget the context and take parts and bits to suit their dogma. This how our N.T had came into our hands.

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 06 2009,15:23)

Here is another argument of a Jew Jesus' genealogy, as we have it in the Christian Scriptures, does not allow him to be the Messiah: 1) If the virgin birth is true (which is highly unlikely since it goes against the grain of supporting Jesus’ messianic claim) then Jesus cannot be the Messiah. 2) If you trace Jesus' line through Joseph (by which you claim Jesus inherits the throne by adoption) in Matthew's genealogy, then you run into the curse of Jeconiah, and Jesus cannot be the Messiah. 3) If you trace Jesus’ line through Luke's genealogy (regardless of whether you attribute it to Joseph or Mary) Jesus cannot be the Messiah because it doesn't include King Solomon; it includes his brother, Nathan, eliminating any legitimate claim to the throne. Please comment Adam

Where in scripture does it state that the Anointed One's line includes Solomon?

If anything it specifically omits Solomon because of his sins and sins of his line.

I agree with the argument about the curse of Jeconiah.

[gollamudi]

You fail to see the evidence for Solomon being included in the Messianic genealogy. Nathan and his children never seated on David's throne. it is purely your speculation.

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 15 2010,12:03)

You fail to see the evidence for Solomon being included in the Messianic genealogy. Nathan and his children never seated on David's throne. it is purely your speculation.

He is not mentioned.   The Messiah is always called the son of David and never the son of Solomon.  

The only support for your argument has is that Solomon took David's throne after him and if you stick with that you would have to have an unbroken line of father to son transference to the throne and I do not believe that is the case especially sin God told one one the kings in Solomon's line that he would never have a child sit on the throne of David.  

You cannot reasonably expect anyone to believe the argument that God meant what he said to David and then not what he stated later to Solomon when he removed 10 tribes from his son's kingdom.   You contradict yourself again when you support the idea God was not sincere with his judgment against that later king.

I assure you that is a deeply flawed argument you are trying to convince people is true as God is consistent and means just what he states.

[gollamudi]

Your answer is a twist from the point I raised. I asked about Nathan or his sons sat on davidic throne. You didn't answer. Here is another argument on Jesus did not fulfill Messianic requirements;

“Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term “messianic age” to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.

Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people. (Isaiah 2:4) Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.”

Obviously the Jesus of Christianity did not fulfill these requirements, contrary to what the church teaches. Instead, what the Christians do is take the prophecies that Jesus didn’t fulfill and try to claim that he will fulfill them in his future Second Coming. Nice try, but no cigar. The Judaism site addresses Jesus:

“What About Jesus?
Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the moshiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.”

Source: http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Christian_Arguments/Page26.htm

[kerwin]

Gollamundi wrote:

Quote

Your answer is a twist from the point I raised. I asked about Nathan or his sons sat on davidic throne. You didn't answer.

I admit I understand you were asking that question.   We will have to look as scripture.  We know King Saul was sitting on the throne when David was anointed instead of someone from the royal household.   God chose to do this because of Saul's sins.  

Solomon and some in his line also sinned and God had the option to chose someone else to sit on David's throne just like he did when he chose David.   Never the less his choice was to remain with David's descendants as David was not the one that sinned.

Another case when this happen is when the line of Jehoahaz was replaced by the line of his brother Jehoiakim by the pharaoh Necho II.  Even though a pharaoh placed him on the throne God was the one who used the pharaoh's actions for his purpose.

In short God could place anyone on the throne from the line of David he chose to and still keep his promise to David.

Gollamundi wrote:

Quote

Here is another argument on Jesus did not fulfill Messianic requirements;

I detest repeating the obvious.

When one lives by the Holy spirit one does not sin.   When everyone lives by the Holy Spirit “There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13).”

God accomplishes this by getting rid of those who chose not to live by the spirit.

When speaking of the new earth “Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity. “

As far as I know Christians and Jews agree on the Messianic Age.   I am ignorant of the teachings of the so call mainstream sects of both so I could be wrong. It is irrelevant since I do believe in the Messianic Age.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Kerwin,
I wonder how you are negating the biblical proofs for Solomon being included in the lineage of Messiah. God had never wiped away his descendents completely because of his sin. He still kept two tribes for the sake of david. Solomon's son Rehoboam was the immediate descendent of Solomon and further his sons continued to sit on the throne of David. Please be frank in your approach regarding the revelation of Jewish Messiah and the requirements to be fulfilled. I am also neutral in my approach towards this goal. Let us hope for proper understanding of scriptures.

peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 22 2010,12:55)

Hi brother Kerwin, I wonder how you are negating the biblical proofs for Solomon being included in the lineage of Messiah. God had never wiped away his descendents completely because of his sin. He still kept two tribes for the sake of david. Solomon's son Rehoboam was the immediate descendent of Solomon and further his sons continued sit on the throne of David. Please be frank in your approach regarding the revelation of Jewish Messiah and the requirements to be fulfilled. I am also neutral in my approach towards this goal. Let us hope for proper understanding of scriptures. peace to you Adam

There are no bible proofs that Solomon is in the line of the Anointed One.  He is not mentioned in relation to that idea except for when David mentioned the prophecy and then David mentioned it with a warning.  Scripture states Solomon showed contempt for that warning.  

Why do you do you think that God changed his mind and stated he did not mean what he stated?

No Jew would suggest that God changes his mind.

[gollamudi]

Why do Jews not accept Jesus as a god or a messiah?

Answer: Almost since the inception of Christianity, some Christians have made it their life's work to convert others, including Jews. At times, these missionaries have used torture and other coercions to gain their goal, such as during the Spanish Inquisition. More recently, Christian missionaries have employed different techniques-using friendly arguments and slick propaganda-for the same purpose. Missionaries have aggressively confronted Jews with misleading arguments and incorrect Biblical quotes. Lately, they have even resorted to using Jewish names and Hebrew songs to mislead Jews into thinking that they, too, are Jewish. Thus, we have the rise of the “Jewish Christians” who claim that the only “fulfilled” Jew is the one who believes in JC (called by them, “Yeshua”).

Judaism respects the right of Christians to worship as they please. It, however, condemns those who try to impose Christianity on Jews through deceit or any other way. The missionaries show a dangerous degree of intolerance towards Judaism, implying that it is a false religion. Jews should therefore be ready to defend their religious beliefs, and to counteract missionary propaganda. Jews must know that missionary arguments can readily be answered, for they are misleading and based on false premises. Jews cannot sit idly by watching missionaries misleading their fellow religionists. There are too few Jews in the world today for us to afford defections to Christianity.

Missionaries say that JC is both the son of G-d and the long­-awaited Messiah. Jews reject both claims, for the following reasons:

a) No Man Can Be a G-d. The Torah makes it clear that there is only one omnipotent, indivisible G-d: “The L-rd He is G-d; there is none else besides him” (Deuteronomy 4:35).” G-d is unique unto Himself, and does not consist of a trinity: “The L-rd He is G-d in heaven above and upon the earth below; there is none else” (Deuteronomy 4:39). JC himself accepted G-d's uniqueness: “And he (JC) said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, G-d.” (Matthew 19:17). How, then, could a mortal man-one who was born and who died on a cross-be a segment of an immortal, indivisible G-d? There is no concept of infinity possible if G-d is a man or a Trinity. The Torah states clearly: “G-d is not a man” (Numbers 23:19).

b) JC did not accomplish the tasks of the Messiah. If JC had indeed been the Messiah, he would have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies mentioned in Tanach. For instance, the Moshiach (Messiah) will bring about universal peace and tran­quility: “And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation; neither shall they learn war any more” (Isaiah 2:4). The Moshiach will bring about universal respect for G-d, and lead all people to follow His ways: “The knowledge of G-d will fill the earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the water covers the sea” (Isaiah 11:9). He will cause an ingathering of the Jewish exiles: “Then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel” (Micha 5:2) and will bring about the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh:. “In that day will I raise up the Tabernacles of David that is fallen” (Amos 9:11). He will also bring physical cure to all who are sick: “Then the eye of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame man will leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb will sing” (Isaiah 35:5-6). Furthermore, he will accomplish these tasks within his own lifetime: “He shall not fail or be crushed until he has set the right in the earth” (Isaiah 42:4).

The clear-cut fact is that JC did not fulfill any of these tasks. The Beis Hamikdosh has not been rebuilt, and the Jews are still in exile. (Incidentally, it is hard to see how JC could rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh or return the Jews to Israel when the Beis Hamikdosh was still in existence and the Jews were still in Israel during his lifetime.) Suffering and pain still abound, and the world is certainly less religiously-inc lined today than it was during JC's day. Immorality, corruption, and crime are definitely in evidence to this very day, and the past 2,000 years have seen one war after another.

If the Messiah has already come, why is the world in such a sad state?

Christian theology has come up with the explanation that JC will reappear during a Second Coming, when he will finally fulfill the Messianic prophecies. But there is no reference to such a delayed second coming of the same Messiah anywhere in the Torah. JC himself promised his followers that he would succeed in his own era: “Verily I say to you that there be some of them who stand here, which shall not taste of death until they have seen the kingdom of G-d come with power” (Mark 9:1); “Verily I say to you that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done” (Mark 13:30). But the things were not done, and JC was instead killed.

c) JC did not keep Jewish law. The Moshiach is expected to keep all the laws of the Torah, and to inspire others to do likewise. (See Deuteronomy 13). However, at times JC considered himself to be above the law: “For the Son of Man is master even of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8). He broke the laws of the Sabbath ­part of the Ten Commandments-and reviled the Rabbis, who are accorded great respect by the Torah. JC did not even always espouse peace: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Can one who denies G-d's sacred law be His Messiah?

d) Lack of Jewish support. JC lived at the time of Roman suppression of the Jews. The Jewish people eagerly looked forward to the arrival of the Moshiach. They were certainly well-versed in the requirements to be filled by the true Moshiach, and would definitely have accepted the Moshiach if it was clear that he had appeared. Yet the Jews of that time—and especially the learned Sages—rejected JC' claims to be the Messiah. They knew and saw JC in the flesh, and found him wanting; on the other hand, Paul of Tarsus, who established the Christian religion, never knew JC personally. If JC were indeed the Messiah, why did his fellow Jews, who had every reason to want a Messiah, almost unanimously reject him?

Missionaries often say that they have Biblical proof of JC' divinity or Messianic role. However, these arguments often rely on misquotes and faulty reasoning.

One such “proof” comes from Isaiah 7:14, which they translate as follows: “Behold the virgin is with child, and she will bear a son, and his name will be called Immanuel.” The unsus­pecting individual might think that this is a prophecy of the New Testament's account of JC' birth. However, one who studies the verse in its original Hebrew will note that the term used is “almah”, which means “young woman”, not “virgin”. (The Hebrew word for virgin is “besulah”, as mentioned in Leviticus 21:3). In any case, the verse refers to the birth of King Chezkiah, and has nothing at all to do with the Moshiach.

Another supposed “proof” is the verse in Micha 5:1: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrasah, which are little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth ' onto Me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose going forth are from old, from ancient days.”

Missionaries claim that this refers to JC, who they say was born in Bethlehem. But the verse really refers to the fact that the Moshiach will come from the lineage of King David, who was born in Bethlehem. And Christians cannot claim that JC came from King David, for the lineage follows the father, and they say that JC had no earthly father.

Finally, there is the so-called “proof” from Isaiah 53, which refers to a “Suffering Servant”. Missionaries will say that this means JC, who suffered on the cross. But the term “servant”, when used elsewhere in Isaiah, refers to the Jew
ish nation, whose members are G-d's dedicated servants. They have certainly suffered throughout the years-yet they have survived for a long time, unlike JC, who died childless at the age of 33, and the verse refers to the servant's prolonged days and “seed” (children).

There are other such arguments, with accurate and concise Jewish responses to each. All Jews must be aware that missionary claims should not be taken at face value, and that the Jewish rejection of the Messiahship of JC has a sound Biblical basis.

Please think over
Adam

[kerwin]

Gollamundi’ source reads:

Quote

Why do Jews not accept Jesus as a god or a messiah?

Is there an implied “all” in that question? If so then it is an unsound premise as not all Jews reject Jesus as a god or messiah. They should reject him as a deity as there is only one deity and that is the one Jesus called God.

No one Jew or Gentile should reject Jesus as the Anointed One. Sadly some do reject him and those that do reject him, reject him because they love to sin and so will not come out of the darkness into the light. All the talk is just a way to cover up their evil choice but God knows the truth.

The question then becomes what is your choice. Is your hunger and thirst for righteousness the stronger or is your love up the sinful deeds? The proof is in the pudding.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Kerwin, you talk like an old high school teacher. Ask a Jew about sin he will tell you the true meaning of sin. We Christians are students to learn about sin and its confession before God. Do you blame a Jew who was taught of God about sin and its consequences. Christianity has coloured its doctrines on original sin and the so called fall of man. Therefore the necessity of a human sacrifice. I feel every thing is myth in our N.T. They misinterpreted Jewish scriptures to prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah. But truth prevails. The day will reveal that Messiah is still awaited by a faithful Jew who looks for world peace and the monotheism of God Yahweh.

Peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ April 13 2010,17:07)

Hi brother Kerwin, you talk like an old high school teacher. Ask a Jew about sin he will tell you the true meaning of sin. We Christians are students to learn about sin and its confession before God. Do you blame a Jew who was taught of God about sin and its consequences. Christianity has coloured its doctrines on original sin and the so called fall of man. Therefore the necessity of a human sacrifice. I feel every thing is myth in our N.T. They misinterpreted Jewish scriptures to prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah. But truth prevails. The day will reveal that Messiah is still awaited by a faithful Jew who looks for world peace and the monotheism of God Yahweh. Peace to you Adam

Why should I ask a Jew about sin when I have the testimony of many Jews I trust about what sin is in the scriptures I read.  If that hypothetical Jew I am to asks knows anything then he will agree with those teachers.

Jesus himself is one of those Jews and he agreed with a teacher of scripture of his time who stated:

Luke 10:27(NIV) reads

Quote

He answered: ” 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.

The two commands are the same since love is obedience to God.

If you would rather listen to a so called Jew who agrees with Jesus and that teacher of law of old then here is one that teaches the same.

As for the tenet of origional sin and the so called fall of man I have not seen what the various traditions, i.e. sects, of modern Jews teach.  I am not sure if that what they teach is relevant since they left the true path a long time ago and their false doctrines have been evolving since.

Still, I will do some research if I can remember to and have the time for it at the same time.

[gollamudi]

Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2010,21:21)

No one Jew or Gentile should reject Jesus as the Anointed One.  Sadly some do reject him and those that do reject him, reject him because they love to sin and so will not come out of the darkness into the light.  All the talk is just a way to cover up their evil choice but God knows the truth. The question then becomes what is your choice.  Is your hunger and thirst for righteousness the stronger or is your love up the sinful deeds?  The proof is in the pudding.

I quoted example of a Jew because of your repeated posts on loving sin is equal to not believing Jesus. That is too much on your part. God is the one who forgives our sins as per O.T. Jews don't require Jesus or human Messiah to forgive sins. It is purely the invention of Christianity stating that we have to believe Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
You really should believe God in Jesus.
Repentance and baptism in his name brings the forgiveness of God for our sin.
We are thus made suitable to house the eternal and living Spirit of God just as our Master shares with God.

Have you climbed in some other way?

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ April 16 2010,14:33)

Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2010,21:21) No one Jew or Gentile should reject Jesus as the Anointed One.  Sadly some do reject him and those that do reject him, reject him because they love to sin and so will not come out of the darkness into the light.  All the talk is just a way to cover up their evil choice but God knows the truth. The question then becomes what is your choice.  Is your hunger and thirst for righteousness the stronger or is your love up the sinful deeds?  The proof is in the pudding. I quoted example of a Jew because of your repeated posts on loving sin is equal to not believing Jesus. That is too much on your part. God is the one who forgives our sins as per O.T. Jews don't require Jesus or human Messiah to forgive sins. It is purely the invention of Christianity stating that we have to believe Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

It is not too much since I am not speaking of the forgiveness of sins but rather I am speaking of stop sinning.   It is true if you stop sinning then God will forgive all the sins that occurred before just as the prophet Ezekiel stated.  In other words it is through obedience to all Jesus' teachings that the World to Come will occur and true Christians are its first fruits and aliens in this world, 1 Peter 2:11.

Don't you listen to God instead of the servants of the evil one who state they speak in God's name?  It is written in Ezekiel 36:26 that God will give his people a new spirit and a new heart.  He has done just that by making a new covenant with them, not of the letter but of the spirit.  That covenant is sealed by the blood of Jesus the Anointed who know what it means when God states “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”.

He thus fulfilled his promise of the Holy Spirit that he made through the prophet Jeremiah in chapter 31 verse 31 of the book named that prophet.

Judaism 101 reads:

Quote

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

Please note that I have not checked the scriptures and am not sure of the claim about Sacrifices since I am not sure what “expiatory” means or “thanksgiving” mean in the context.  Otherwise I agree with the Jewish teaching mentioned.

If you had followed the discussions that go on you would find those who believe in a non-physical World to Come debating with those who believe in a physical but non-perishable World to Come.  I am on the latter side of that debate.

Here is the rest of the Jewish source I quoted from.

As you can see the doctrine I believe happens to share quite a lot with what even the Jews today say they believe even though they have stayed off the path thousands of years ago.

[942767]

Quote (gollamudi @ April 16 2010,19:33)

Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2010,21:21) No one Jew or Gentile should reject Jesus as the Anointed One.  Sadly some do reject him and those that do reject him, reject him because they love to sin and so will not come out of the darkness into the light.  All the talk is just a way to cover up their evil choice but God knows the truth. The question then becomes what is your choice.  Is your hunger and thirst for righteousness the stronger or is your love up the sinful deeds?  The proof is in the pudding. I quoted example of a Jew because of your repeated posts on loving sin is equal to not believing Jesus. That is too much on your part. God is the one who forgives our sins as per O.T. Jews don't require Jesus or human Messiah to forgive sins. It is purely the invention of Christianity stating that we have to believe Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

Hi Adam:

What do you and your fellow Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah make of the following scripture:

Quote

Jeremiah 31:31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Obedience to the Torah cannot make you perfect or give you eternal life.
The standard now is perfection.
Life is in the Spirit.

[gollamudi]

Quote (kerwin @ April 16 2010,21:20)

Quote (gollamudi @ April 16 2010,14:33) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2010,21:21) No one Jew or Gentile should reject Jesus as the Anointed One.  Sadly some do reject him and those that do reject him, reject him because they love to sin and so will not come out of the darkness into the light.  All the talk is just a way to cover up their evil choice but God knows the truth. The question then becomes what is your choice.  Is your hunger and thirst for righteousness the stronger or is your love up the sinful deeds?  The proof is in the pudding. I quoted example of a Jew because of your repeated posts on loving sin is equal to not believing Jesus. That is too much on your part. God is the one who forgives our sins as per O.T. Jews don't require Jesus or human Messiah to forgive sins. It is purely the invention of Christianity stating that we have to believe Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. It is not too much since I am not speaking of the forgiveness of sins but rather I am speaking of stop sinning.   It is true if you stop sinning then God will forgive all the sins that occurred before just as the prophet Ezekiel stated.  In other words it is through obedience to all Jesus' teachings that the World to Come will occur and true Christians are its first fruits and aliens in this world, 1 Peter 2:11. Don't you listen to God instead of the servants of the evil one who state they speak in God's name?  It is written in Ezekiel 36:26 that God will give his people a new spirit and a new heart.  He has done just that by making a new covenant with them, not of the letter but of the spirit.  That covenant is sealed by the blood of Jesus the Anointed who know what it means when God states “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”. He thus fulfilled his promise of the Holy Spirit that he made through the prophet Jeremiah in chapter 31 verse 31 of the book named that prophet. Judaism 101 reads: Quote In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings. Please note that I have not checked the scriptures and am not sure of the claim about Sacrifices since I am not sure what “expiatory” means or “thanksgiving” mean in the context.  Otherwise I agree with the Jewish teaching mentioned. If you had followed the discussions that go on you would find those who believe in a non-physical World to Come debating with those who believe in a physical but non-perishable World to Come.  I am on the latter side of that debate. Here is the rest of the Jewish source I quoted from. As you can see the doctrine I believe happens to share quite a lot with what even the Jews today say they believe even though they have stayed off the path thousands of years ago.

Hi brother Kerwin,
If you stop sinning God will forgive sins. This is what you quoted above if so where is the question of Jesus mediatorship in forgiving sins? All verses you quoted are Hebrew scriptures not Christian. God does not demand sacrifice but obedience if so where is the question of accepting Jesus' human sacrifice?

God's giving of new heart and new spirit nothing to do with Christianity is available for all Jews according to their scriptures. So what Christianity claim is nothing but bogus.

peace to you
Adam

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