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Adam
you got all wrong i mean your reasoning, if you look at the scriptures not through your own eyes but the eyes of the truth of God you will see and not be blind,
The problem with our Christianity is it doesn't reply the queries of Jewish views which are strongly supported by their scriptures.
There is more than one form of Judeo-Christianity. If you cherry pick the forms then you can certainly find what you want but it most likely will not be the truth.
God promised the Holy Spirit and that spirit has now come. If you choose not to believe that then no matter if you may call yourself a person of God you are not.
Anonymous source at being Jewish.com reads:
Quote We do not believe that the Messiah will be the son of G-d.
This is a foolish statement coming from a so called Jew considering all Jews are children of God according to the Law of Mosses. Jesus is the one and only Tsaddik(Zaddick) who is gamur tzaddik. All other human beings must acknowledge he is King and obey his teachings to become Tzaddikim(Tsaddikim, Zaddikim) and so gamur tzaddik like he is.
The Jews also teach this gives is special privileges and special obligations. One of the obligations is that they are at least partially responsible for the sins of their generation. Hasidism Jews of the 18th century saw them as a mediator between God and man.
The link defines the non-English words I included in my response.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2010,23:41) Anonymous source at being Jewish.com reads: Quote We do not believe that the Messiah will be the son of G-d.
This is about the literal sonship what many christians believe but not the adoptation of people of Israel or kings of Israel by God.Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2010,11:32) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2010,23:41) Anonymous source at being Jewish.com reads: Quote We do not believe that the Messiah will be the son of G-d.
This is about the literal sonship what many Christians believe but not the adoption of people of Israel or kings of Israel by God.
That would make that a red herring falacy as it really has nothing to do with Jesus being the Anointed but rather with the false teachings put forth by certain of those who call themselves Christian.I agree with your source that those Christians are teaching a false teaching at least about this point.
Now I get from scripture a teaching that is taught in the Jewish scripture while these so called Christians get one that is not taught. Why is that? Could it be that they are deceived by the evil one?
Thanks for such understanding brother kerwin. I was also like many such christians who believed those dogmas but I now started unlearning every thing and learning afresh what the Hebrew Bible says about Messiah.
Peace to you
adamLetter from an American Christian and the Rabbi's Response
From The Restoration Newsletter, Sept/Oct. 1995.
Link: http://ldolphin.org/messiah.htmlLetters to the Editor…
(The following is the relevant excerpt of a letter which was received in Jerusalem from a reader in Maryland. We are including it here because we understand that the questions which this reader asks, and the answer which he received, are of great interest to many readers, and we hope that this will provide an instructive opportunity to discuss the Jewish view of the messiah. )
To Rabbi Chaim Richman,
Greetings from a Christian living in Washington, DC. Do you think that Jesus may have been the messiah? Why or why not? Have you ever considered to look at the life of Jesus in that role? Thank you for being patient with my questions. May I state one last thing however, in the New Testament it is written that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies of the prophets and the law. Please let me share some with you concerning what is known as the second coming of Christ… I don't want to offend you in any way, however I feel that the L-rd wants me to tell you this in this manner…
I am including a list of biblical verses that I would like you to look at, please also see Matthew chapter 24. Also the Psalms speak of many prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. I have a book with a better list – I will send it with this letter. Please take a look and see if Jesus was the Messiah I would love to hear from you! Please feel free to write. Again I say that I hope that this letter did not offend you, however I must do what G-d requires of me. Thank you very much. (Signed).
——————————————————————————–
Rabbi Richman replies:My dear friend,
Thank you very much for your sincere letter.
I appreciate your expressed desire not to offend, so let me start off by stating that for me as well, to be offensive in any way is absolutely the furthest thing from my mind. Of course, we both understand that if we are truly to communicate in sincerity, with a goal of clarifying the truth of G-d and how we are to serve Him in this world, then the cornerstone of our dialog must be – and always remain mutual respect, concern for learning the truth, and care for each other. We must remember at all times that we are all created by the same Master and we are all connected.
Just as I hope that your intention is not to try to change me, but to inform me of your convictions, so too, my intention is not to try to change you, but to answer your questions with as much consideration as possible, and to provide you with information about the One G-d of Israel and His faith. Please be aware that I will not be offended by anything you say (as long as your intention is not to offend) and I would also never want to offend you either. I can only tell you the truth of the Bible as revealed to Moses and passed on to every subsequent generation until this very day.
Many Christians pose the question, “why don't you accept Jesus as the messiah?” But to us it is not a simple question of 'accepting' or not. Now first of all, before we even get off the ground with our discussion, we must realize that the concept 'messiah' seems to mean different things to us. Jews do not believe that the Messiah is a part of G-d, or Divine in any way, more than any other person. No indication of this can be found in the Old Testament, since this is not a Jewish concept. We look only to G-d for our salvation, and when the time comes for Him to bring the anointed king, then it shall happen. But we do not concern ourselves with the Messiah's identity – for he is a person (as we have written, and continue to expound, in the “Countdown to Redemption” column in this publication) and his coming does not change the essence of our relationship with G-d – the most important fact of life there is. We do not accept the notion that Scripture “foretells” that G-d would robe Himself in flesh. We believe that this idea is the very embodiment of idolatry, and we must give our very lives to make a stand against it…as indeed we Jews have always done throughout the ages.
The reason why Jews like myself do not accept Jesus as the messiah is a very basic one – we do not see that he fulfilled any of the requirements for the job. If he never qualified, it is not even a question of rejection. G-d outlined these requirements in the Bible. The identity of the messiah is not up to you or me; it is up to his performance to prove. You have said that I should “take a look at the book (you enclosed) and see if Jesus was the messiah” These are not lists of prophecies that have been fulfilled, but an attempt at working out New Testament passages to reflect Old Testament prophecies. Can a little booklet one receives in the mail prove that the messiah has come? Is that all it takes? The state of the world must prove that the messiah has come; not a tract. Don't you think that when the messiah arrives, it should not be necessary for his identity to be subject to debate – for the world should be so drastically changed for the better that it should be absolutely incontestable! Why should it be necessary to prove' him at all? If the messiah has come, why should anyone have any doubt?
What requirements did he fulfill?
According to the prophets of the Bible, amongst the most basic missions of the messiah are:
to cause all the world to return to G-d and His teachings,
to restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David,
to oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt;
to gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel,
and to reestablish the Sanhedrin,
restore the sacrificial system,
as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee.
You have stated that in the New Testament it is written that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies of the prophets and the law. But which of these above requirements did Jesus fulfill? And if he is going to fulfill them the second time, why did he not attend to them the first time? This in itself is one concept which no amount of Biblical sleuthing can find a prophetic basis for – FOR THE NOTION THAT THE MESSIAH DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH THESE THINGS UPON HIS APPEARANCE, AND THEREFORE MUST RETURN A SECOND TIME, DOES NOT EXIST IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. WHEREVER THESE THINGS ARE FORETOLD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE MESSIAH COMES AND DOES THESE THINGS ONCE. Where in the Old Testament is there even the faintest allusion to such a concept, that the messiah does not complete the job, and therefore returns a second time? Every prophecy about the messiah makes it clear that he comes once and does the job. He will influence all men to serve G-d with a pure heart. And since the booklets which you have sent me are completely occupied with “corroborating” Old Testament prophecies with New Testament verses – as if to acknowledge that the contents of those Old Testament prophecies is indeed of paramount importance – THEN WHY IS THIS FACT IGNORED? But because this did not happen – it was necessary for Christianity to redefine the role of the messiah, complete with Biblical interpolation, in order to fit this man's career. First of all, Jesus was said to have been resurrected. Secondly, the Bible was examined with the purpose of finding what no one had ever seen there before – evidence that the messiah would be killed without bringing peace to the world or redemption to Israel (hence the importance to Christians of Isaiah 53, which they say refers to Jesus). Thirdly, there was the expectation of a second coming, at which time Jesus would carry out the task expected of the messiah. And finally, there had to be an explanation for the first coming and its catastrophic end. The basic structure of this explanation
was to shift the function of the messiah from a visible level (the only level emphasized by the Bible) – where it could be tested – to an invisible level – where it could not. The Messiah's goal, at least the first time around, was now not said to be the redemption of Israel (which had clearly not taken place) but the atonement for original sin. A reworking of Biblical themes. But for Jews, if the Bible's description of the messiah has not been fulfilled, then for authentic Jews there can only be one explanation: he has not yet come. To Jews, who were often subjected to mockery and contempt when asked where their messiah was, this conclusion was painful. But an honest facing of the facts makes it inescapable. In adversity and joy, through holocaust and statehood, Jews who are truly faithful to the Torah and prophets can only repeat the words of their forefathers: “I believe with complete faith in the coming of the messiah; and though he may tarry I shall wait for him every day.”We have already written in these pages that we believe that the messiah, sent by G-d Al-mighty, is not G-d, but a human being – but the greatest leader and wisest teacher who ever lived. He will put his extraordinary talents to use to precipitate a worldwide revolution which will bring perfect justice and harmony to humanity. Please understand that several rabbis state that the historical Jesus – not the man-god Christianity made him into – did accomplish a great deal in turning people away from idolatry and towards a more authentic knowledge of G-d. But he did not claim the role which was given him by the early church fathers, nor do these rabbis ascribe any role to him. He has no connection with authentic Jewish thought. For reasons of space, this is not the proper format to enter into a lengthy debate or disputation on every possible Biblical verse – BUT I AM PREPARED TO DO SO – although at Light to the Nations, we prefer to stress that which we share, and unite around what should be our common goal: Greater knowledge of G-d and hastening the Redemption. Nor is this the proper time for me to put forth every aspect of this discussion.
We all want G-d in our lives, and we all want to do the right thing. But we are now living in very special times indeed. G-d is moving the hearts of men – foretold by the prophet Haggai as the time when the very heavens and earth will be shaken and now men are coming forward, unabashedly, to learn the truth of G-d. I have had no intention, Heaven forbid, to offend you. But just as you feel that you must do what G-d requires of you, so have I done as well. If you, or any of our readers, wish to correspond with me and truly establish a dialog, I am at your service. You may circulate this to whomever you like and I will be happy to respond to anyone.
Adam! Did Jesus not come from Heaven to do the will of the Father? Did the father not say :” This is my begotten Son in whom I am well pleased. Do we not have eye Witnesses that seen Jesus being crucified and died for us. And on the third day they seen Him alive again, He rose from the dead. Did the Apostles not see Jesus ascended to Heaven? Did an Angel not say to them…they way you seen Him ascend to Heaven in like manner He will return?
He performed Miracles, did anyone else do so? The Jewish People are still doing all t he things that they did when Jesus walked the earth. What you or they are saying that they keep the Torah by Faith, is a bunch of nonsenses. You either go by Faith or by Law. And I know as a fact that they do go by all of the Law. I made another post about this, and I will find it and will copy it here. Why would they not want to believe that He is the Messiah, they killed Him.
IreneHello and Welcome! I happened to know some Jew's also and they do keep the Law and all the washings and rituals. They are the some Jew's of yesterday when Jesus walked this earth. How do I know? Because our Son owned a Jewish Bakery and the Rabbi came and inspected everything. You could not even turn on an Oven with out Him doing it. I could not use a S.O.S. Pad to clean because it is not Kosher. I told Him I don't want to eat the Pad. Needless to say our Son did not make it there. So you are wrong, they are still very, very strict in the their Law and very Kosher. When I wanted to go take the Lady that owned it before our Son out to eat to a Restaurant, we had to go to one that had only Kosher foods. No Mc. Donald's. They are very strict as far as the Torah is concerned. I have no idea where you get that information from that they are Christians, they are not. Unless they convert. Not to many do, here were we live. There is a difference of keeping the Law of the Old Testament then what we are under. We are under the New Covenant in Luke 22:20
Math. 22:37-40 is the great commandment. We don't have to keep the Sabbath it was a sign between God and the Children of Israel.
Exodus 31:16-17
That is the difference between us and the Jewish People. Also Jesus magnified the Law on the Sermon on the Mount. We keep the Law by Faith and not the letter of the Law, like the Jewish People do…
Peace and Love Irenehi
it is because of the blindness of the Jews that we gentiles are given access to the kingdom of God,
and that at the end of it all they will see and beleive,and i beleive it will be at his return.
gollamudi,
Rabbi Richman wrote:
Quote Where in the Old Testament is there even the faintest allusion to such a concept, that the messiah does not complete the job, and therefore returns a second time?
Where does it state that the Anointed One completes the Job in a day or even three or so short years?
Jesus set things in motion over two thousand years ago and then like a cook put it on to bake until the dish is done.
He is still working on the dish though the workings of the Holy Spirit even though he no longer is walking on this earth.
It does state the word of God will go out from Jerusalem in at least two places and that has happened. In fact it only happened after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension.
That is what Christianity believes. But for an orthodox Jew coming of Messiah is still not yet happened. How can you say their Messiah has come without the fulfillment of major requirement for their Messiah?
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 10 2010,20:45) That is what Christianity believes. But for an orthodox Jew coming of Messiah is still not yet happened. How can you say their Messiah has come without the fulfillment of major requirement for their Messiah?
It is very simple. The Orthodox Jews believe in a lie constructed by man. In the United States we have the United States Constitution which states one thing. It is then interpreted by a group of judges who sometimes use what the legal fictions. The Orthodox Jews work in the same way with scriptures.Do not be fooled as they are certainly not the only ones to do so. The question is why. In the United States the judges do so in order to fulfill their political agenda. The false teachers of law must have similar reasons for their choices.
Peter addressed this very point in the second letter of his we have available when he stated corrupt and ignorant individuals misinterpret scripture to their own destruction.
As for my point regard Rabbi Richman's teaching, I turned his argument around to point to the fact his interpretation has no support. God simply does not tell us in scripture how long his promised one will take to complete all the tasks he is assigned to do.
Let us look at the History of the Hebrew people. How long did it take the Hebrew people to occupy all the land God promised to Abraham? If I remember correctly it was not even accomplished by the end of Joshua's lifetime.
Judges 1:1(NIV) reads:
Quote After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, “Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?”
God accomplishes his purpose in his time and not ours.
Jesus foreknew his death and I believe he a Jew obtained that understanding from the prophets. You are correct that not all Jews properly interpreted scripture to get that understanding. In the end God reveals the truth to those he chooses.
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 04 2010,21:15) Hi brother Terraricca,
Can you prove this so called three days and three nights from N.T? It is again a mess how the writers of Gospels made it.
Hi Adam,Are you really that unfamiliar with Scripture?
Mt:12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 11 2010,11:56) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 04 2010,21:15) Hi brother Terraricca,
Can you prove this so called three days and three nights from N.T? It is again a mess how the writers of Gospels made it.
Hi Adam,Are you really that unfamiliar with Scripture?
Mt:12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
I believe you are missing Adam's point as Jesus was in the Grave merely two nights i.e. Friday and Saturday.The solution is simple when we learn that according to Jewish custom any part of a day, however small, is included as part of a full day.1 “Since the Jews reckoned part of a day as a full day, the 'three days and three nights' could permit a Friday crucifixion.”2 This phenomena is exemplified in scripture in the book of Esther. “Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way,” (Esther 4:16 ). Then, in Esther 5:1 it says, “Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace in front of the king’s rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace.” We can see that even though the three days and nights had not been completed, Esther went in to see the King on the third day even though she said to fast for three days and nights. We see that “on the third day” is equivalent to “after three days.”
http://www.carm.org/bible-d….ad-tombQuote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2010,17:19) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 11 2010,11:56) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 04 2010,21:15) Hi brother Terraricca,
Can you prove this so called three days and three nights from N.T? It is again a mess how the writers of Gospels made it.
Hi Adam,Are you really that unfamiliar with Scripture?
Mt:12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
I believe you are missing Adam's point as Jesus was in the Grave merely two nights i.e. Friday and Saturday.
You are right brother Kerwin.
Thanks for such understading.
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 11 2010,13:41) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2010,17:19) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 11 2010,11:56) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 04 2010,21:15) Hi brother Terraricca,
Can you prove this so called three days and three nights from N.T? It is again a mess how the writers of Gospels made it.
Hi Adam,Are you really that unfamiliar with Scripture?
Mt:12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
I believe you are missing Adam's point as Jesus was in the Grave merely two nights i.e. Friday and Saturday.
You are right brother Kerwin.
Thanks for such understading.
Adam
Thank you but David does have a point as Esther did eat on the third day after stating she and he maids would fast for three days and three nights.I do know that the Jews considered a night and a day a full day. It may be we just have trouble looking at things from the perspective of the Jews of that day and thus we take things too literally in some cases.
The question here is not that Esther wanted to go to king after three days and three nights but she wanted them to keep fast on her behalf for three days and three nights irrespective of the day she was going to meet the king. Please see for your self.
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 11 2010,14:23) The question here is not that Esther wanted to go to king after three days and three nights but she wanted them to keep fast on her behalf for three days and three nights irrespective of the day she was going to meet the king. Please see for your self.
Esther stated that she and her maids would fast for the same period of time and yet she sat down to banquet with the king that day in Esther 5:4-6. It only mentions that she drank wine and the pledge was not to eat and drink for three days and three nights.Of course she may have violated her pledge so perhaps you want a second supporting scripture as witness. If that is the case then ask David if he has any other witnesses to back up his conclusion.
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