The injustice of the koran

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 03 2010,05:57)

I've no intention to bring BD down at all.

Love the christian, hate the christianity that makes them believe silly things; love the muslim, but reject the nasty ideology that turns an otherwise decent human being into an automaton unthinkingly spouting ideology.

It is not the religious person at fault generally. They need to be forgiven for they know not what they do. I just hope to try and make them aware of what they do, even if it is just sharing a belief system with those who really do the harm.

Stuart

You forgot to add, love the atheist and hate atheism.

Many an evil has been done on the belief that there is no God and so if you can get away with it, why not.

February 3, 2010 at 3:43 am#175285

kejonn

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2010,16:39)

Many an evil has been done on the belief that there is no God and so if you can get away with it, why not.

Can you definitively show that these people have carried out heinous acts solely based on the lack of unbelief?

February 3, 2010 at 5:01 am#175299

Participant

Imagine if you removed the law of the USA and said there are no laws and no prosecutions. Do you think that crime would increase? If so, then this answers your question.

If there is no God and no consequence for sin after your life ends, then some people will do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do if they believed that there is an eternal consequence to your sin.

Anyway for the sake of your question, I offer myself as proof of this. When I didn't believe in God I lived a life of crime. When I did believe, I repented of my old life. Now those ways have been buried. I have been a believer for more than 25 years now, and I have no desire to the old things I did. Even my old friends couldn't believe the change in me. Even better than that, was my understanding of my own weakness and knowing that God truly gave me strength to be able to change so much.

February 3, 2010 at 6:06 am#175318

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 03 2010,16:01)

Imagine if you removed the law of the USA and said there are no laws and no prosecutions. Do you think that crime would increase? If so, then this answers your question.

If there is no God and no consequence for sin after your life ends, then some people will do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do if they believed that there is an eternal consequence to your sin.

Amen Brother! God bless you and Peace be upon you.

February 3, 2010 at 7:27 am#175350

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 03 2010,09:35)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 03 2010,05:57)

Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 02 2010,21:07)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 02 2010,19:57)

Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 02 2010,19:38)

You thought I said wrong instead of strong haha.

It is in my heart, I believe it is right, but I keep fighting against it because of my ideas of who Jesus is. I will work it out, in time.

Yea, I had just finished responding to someone being negative and I guess I simply misread it because every post around it was negative. I truly apologize(May God forgive me)

I believe that Jesus did what was commanded of him by God and he is the door, on the other side of that door is ALLAH. Your love of Jesus will actually grow, I know I love Jesus more not less because his display of obedience and submission is unmatched. The fact is to Love ALLAH with all your heart, soul and mind and when that happens you will love everyone more including Jesus, Jesus could have never loved us had his love of God not been with his Whole Being.

If we do not love God as much as Jesus loved God, how can we love Jesus?

Bod, dont let anything they say bring you down. I KNOW you love God, you are loved by God, dont forget that.

I've no intention to bring BD down at all.

Stuart

STU,

All belief systems including yours are shared with someone somewhere doing harm.

Jeffrey Dahmer the famous American serial killer who ate his victims said it was attributed to his atheism, his father said he had become an atheist and didn't teach Ted Bundy about God, Ted Bundy said it was his lack of guilt or feeling of later judgement that helped him commit one of the most famous and bizarre spree of murders in history, he had confessed this after becoming a Christian

Jeffrey Dahmer:

Jeffrey Dahmer searched for his perfect fantasy lover — beautiful, submissive and eternal. As his desire increased, he experimented with drugs, alcohol and exotic sex. His increasing need for stimulation was demonstrated by the dismemberment of victims, whose heads and genitals he preserved. He experimented with cannibalism to “ensure his victims would always be a part of him”.

(From the Holy Wikipedia)

When young, impaled the heads of animals he killed on stakes in his yard. He collected dead animals and had necrophilia desires. His stepmother Shari Dahmer said, “When he was young, he liked to use acid to scrape the meat off dead animals.” She recalled during the late 1980s, an odor emanated from the basement and garage prompting Lionel, Jeffrey's father, a chemist, to investigate. He found “bones and the residue in the containers.” Jeffrey told him he stripped flesh from an animal he found. “

As a teen, he had fantasies of killing and mutilating men. After graduating from high school at age 17 he was left alone at home, without money, or food and a broken refrigerator. It is believed by some that this experience, abandonment, and mental illness, gave him the justification he needed to commit crimes.

No mention of atheism there. Was that what his evangelical lying creationist father put it down to? Despite being found sane at his trial he clearly wasn't. Do you have a link to support your religious claim?

Ted Bundy:

The night before he was executed, Bundy granted a taped interview to James Dobson, psychologist and founder of the Christian evangelical organization Focus on the Family. During the interview, Bundy made repeated, previously unclaimed statements regarding pornographic “root” of his crimes. Bundy stated that while pornography did not cause him to commit murder, the consumption of violent pornography helped “shape and mold” his violence into “behavior too terrible to describe.” He alleged that he felt that violence in the media, “particularly sexualized violence,” sent boys “down the road to being Ted Bundys.” In the same interview, Bundy stated:

“You are going to kill me, and that will protect society from me. But out there are many, many more people who are addicted to pornography, and you are doing nothing about that.”

(Also the Holy Wikipedia)

Where's the bit about “lack of later judgment”?

What an absurd thing to try and claim. If he was atheist he would not think the concept of 'later judgment' to be relevant at all. He was mentally unwell and showed disturbing behaviour from a very young age. Do you take his own self-analysis as being a reliable one? His pornography story is just as desperate.

Is this all you have? A pathetic argument based on two pathetic men.

Stuart

February 3, 2010 at 7:45 am#175351

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 03 2010,16:01)

Imagine if you removed the law of the USA and said there are no laws and no prosecutions. Do you think that crime would increase? If so, then this answers your question.

If there is no God and no consequence for sin after your life ends, then some people will do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do if they believed that there is an eternal consequence to your sin.

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I don't really have to. It is common sense that some people will do evil if they think that they will get away with it. If they think that they will be punished for it, then they will be less likely to do it. Imagine if you removed the law of the USA and said there are no laws and no prosecutions. Do you think that crime would increase? If so, then this answers your question.

If you mean that people will fear supernatural judgment then can you explain why only 0.23% of the US prison population is atheist, while the atheist population roaming freely is at least 12% and probably more like 20%? On those stats if everyone abandoned religious belief the crime rate would drop markedly.

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If there is no God and no consequence for sin after your life ends, then some people will do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do if they believed that there is an eternal consequence to your sin.

To be a christian you have to think like a child, you wrote once. This is the thinking of the 4 year old, according to Kohlberg.

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Good for you. If I stopped being an atheist and joined a religious group I might go from being a person who cares about the rights and wellbeing of others to someone who stands staunchly by a man who causes the deaths of Africans by insisting African men not wear condoms, or by imams who in the name of my religion would like Israel bulldozed into the Mediterranian Sea, or hold the hand of a loved one as she died because my insane beliefs would not allow a blood transfusion, or chop off the foreskin of my newborn son without his consent for no intelligent reason, or be complicit in causing unnecessary suffering to animals because I was stuck with a Dark Age belief about how abattoirs should do their work.

And I didn’t even mention suicide bombings, abortion clinic murders and systematically lying to children about natural history!

If I were to convert to christianity I would at the very minimum be rejoicing in the selfish rewards of a human sacrifice.

Perhaps you are better off than you were. Are you suggesting someone like me would be better off with religion?

Stuart

February 3, 2010 at 12:11 pm#175388

Participant

What you fail to realise Stu, is that I am not saying that all believers are perfect and non-believers are engaging in acts of evil. You need to stop reacting in the extreme to everything you dislike. It is obvious immature behaviour for all to see.

I am saying that if men do not have consequences for their actions, then they will do those actions more often. If there is no speeding limit, then more people will go faster in 50K zones. If you do not believe this logic, then go around espousing that in New Zealand we do not need laws any more because it won't make an ounce of difference to men's behaviour. I am sure that most will think you are probably insane if you did that. If you don't believe me, then try it out.

:laugh:

And yes we are all better off when we realise that there is a God and that we do not know him because we are in sin.
When you realise that, then you can take steps to know God. To some there may not be a noticeable improvement (as it depends on how you lived your life before) but it makes all the difference when you look at eternity. Why? Because the righteous inherit eternal life and the unrighteous will lose their lives/souls.

And your following comment is ironic “To be a christian you have to think like a child, you wrote once.” I wrote that we need to be like children in that they are innocent, I also wrote that we are not to be childish. So there is a difference between child-like and childish Stu. e.g., your comment is actually childish and to be child-like is to be innocent. For it is the latter that God reveals his truths to and he obviously hasn't revealed anything to you judging by your unbelief and lack of clues, or maybe he has, but you are too stubborn to listen or see.

One of the biggest stumbling blocks for hearing God is pride. That is ones opinion of himself is higher than he really is. God resists the proud but is graceful to the humble.

February 3, 2010 at 11:02 pm#175539

Participant

As an existentialist, if you do not believe in God then how is it you can blame “God” or a religion for the acts of man? No matter how you look at it, Men are doing the acts.

Don't you yourself remove the responsibility of the person when you attribute the act to something other than the person?

And how is it you say, that doesn't sound like Atheists? What do Atheists sound like? Do you assume that someone who calls themselves Christian or Muslim cannot be Atheists? Can a priest that molests little children be any less than an atheist?

What i mean is if you really believed that doing an act that would result in severe punishment that never ended and did the act anyway wouldn't that be an act of hypocrisy and wouldn't that show and prove you do not believe in any such punishment or punisher.

On the other hand do you assume that violence is unacceptable in all cases? Should America not have went to war with Germany when Hitler was killing Jews? Are you the sort that says that when your country invades a country it's because of good reasons but when the country defends itself is doing so because they are evil? Have you no sense? For every single public beheading that you show on your site by “terrorist” how many Men, women and children are killed of those you call terrorist? have you no sense?

Why don't you put on your site all the dead bodies that a single “Daisy Cutter” will produce?

I am just saying you are griping dishonestly why don't you gripe about all injustice and not just the kind you dislike?

February 4, 2010 at 8:56 am#175633

Participant

It is not me taking things to extremes. My reference to Kohlberg is becoming more and more relevant: are you saying that if there was no speed limit then there would be no consequences of driving too fast? That is not true, is it: there are plenty of consequences. That is why we put in place a law, to protect others from being damaged in the process of those consequences arising.

This is the point your analogy begins to really break down. There is a good line of reasoning, supported by evidence and endorsed by universally accepted ethical principles that suggests a speed limit is a good idea. There is no evidence whatever that proclaiming homosexuals as worthy of the punishment of death is a good idea for anyone.

When you read the NT it does not actually say what is ungodly (it just says fatuous things like listing particular people as worthy of the punishment of death), but there is no actual stated moral equivalent of the speed limit. Actually 'ungodly' is undefined. It is a bluff.

“Follow the spirit”

“Oh, so you mean I can't do X?”

“What did Jesus tell you?”

“Don't know, can't hear him for all the shouting of Paul and one of the Johns.”

Stuart

February 11, 2010 at 5:21 pm#177175

Participant

If a person cherry picks out verses they will have no more understanding than if they had never read anything at all. Imagine you modernizing your statements and seeing an American document and you cherry pick out of that document “Kill the Taliban wherever you find them and slay them” would that statement really show the fact that the U.S. Military is trying to end oppression by the Taliban on the Afghan people? Of course not!

So what we find often is that oppression and mischief is worse than slaughter. When the U.S. military invaded Iraq a country where Sadaam use to gas and torture his own people if we cherry pick we could say “America attacked an innocent country and started an illegal war” The fact is on a much larger picture Sadaam Huseein was causing great mischief and Oppression. We don't need to wait for someone to actually BE another hitler before they are stopped and the Quran is saying the same thing I'm saying.

Don't you remember The atheist USSR/Russia and other Atheist countries that has killed more and ruined more human life in the history of the world than anything else including Natural catastrophies. The Khmer rouge and the killing fields, Chin's human rights violations. But guess what when Russia invaded Afghanistan it was the U.S. military who assisted and supplied them(The taliban, when they were new) with weapons and training and at that time Americans were rooting for guess who? Afghanistan and they wanted those Muslims to Slay the Russian infidels wherever they would find them. So context is everything.

Don't you think if the KKK was running around killing black people that the black people at some point would say “Slay them wherever you find them”? So context, information provided out of context is misleading and you should be better than that.

God Bless You and I hope you see my view as helpful to you(God Willing)

February 12, 2010 at 4:26 am#177346

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world….see-red

Participant

Quote

If a person cherry picks out verses they will have no more understanding than if they had never read anything at all.

You have cherry-picked a large number of verses in your various posts here. Do we have no more understanding that if we had not read them?

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Imagine you modernizing your statements and seeing an American document and you cherry pick out of that document “Kill the Taliban wherever you find them and slay them” would that statement really show the fact that the U.S. Military is trying to end oppression by the Taliban on the Afghan people? Of course not! So what we find often is that oppression and mischief is worse than slaughter. When the U.S. military invaded Iraq a country where Sadaam use to gas and torture his own people if we cherry pick we could say “America attacked an innocent country and started an illegal war” The fact is on a much larger picture Sadaam Huseein was causing great mischief and Oppression. We don't need to wait for someone to actually BE another hitler before they are stopped and the Quran is saying the same thing I'm saying.

But the difference is that the US makes no hypocritical pretensions by calling itself ‘the nation of peace’, does it. Islam DOES claim itself to be the religion of peace, so what is it doing proclaiming ANYTHING LIKE “slay them where you find them”?

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Whereas the ‘atheist’ nation of New Zealand only perpetrated human rights violations on its indigenous population under a flag with a cross on it, in the 19th Century. Modern, secular New Zealand has looked after its citizenry far better than any islamic republic you care to name.

To wit:

Anyway this is not a fundamental principle, and in fact fails to spot correct causation, ie: communist dictators have been the perpetrators, not just any old atheists, and atheism is only the convenient position for promoting the ideology. Actually it is a pretty short-sighted strategy because the atheist is also the secularist, someone who does not feel bound by ideology. Maybe that is why communism failed. If only they had threatened the people with god.

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Don't you think if the KKK was running around killing black people that the black people at some point would say “Slay them wherever you find them”?

No, I personally think that would invalidate any appeal made by black people on the grounds of human rights. Let’s all just abuse one another’s rights until someone wins, is what you are advocating. That was the dark age philosophy of mohammad, but at least he was living in the dark ages.

Why anyone would consciously volunteer to think in this backward way today is beyond me.

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So context, information provided out of context is misleading and you should be better than that.

And the problem is that we have explored the context of the sura you mentioned above, and it turns out to be completely open to interpretation by the suicide bomber.

Islam: the religion of equivocation on the subject of the dignity and basic rights of humanity.

Stuart

February 12, 2010 at 7:02 am#177364

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world….see-red

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 12 2010,15:26)

Quote

If a person cherry picks out verses they will have no more understanding than if they had never read anything at all.

You have cherry-picked a large number of verses in your various posts here. Do we have no more understanding that if we had not read them?

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To wit:

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Don't you think if the KKK was running around killing black people that the black people at some point would say “Slay them wherever you find them”?

Why anyone would consciously volunteer to think in this backward way today is beyond me.

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So context, information provided out of context is misleading and you should be better than that.

And the problem is that we have explored the context of the sura you mentioned above, and it turns out to be completely open to interpretation by the suicide bomber.

Islam: the religion of equivocation on the subject of the dignity and basic rights of humanity.

Stuart

So it is your opinion that no one should ever fight against oppression and tyranny?

You are sorely confused(Yes, I did mean Sorely)

February 12, 2010 at 10:40 am#177389

Participant

Quote

So it is your opinion that no one should ever fight against oppression and tyranny?

No, that would be a misrepresentation of what I wrote, your usual dishonest tactic as identified by others who entertain your tedious nonsense in other fora the world around.

I am just saying you should not be hypocritical about it. Don't call your belief system the religion of peace when its book of mythology tells you when you should go to war.

Call it the religion of needing to go to war sometimes.

Of course while you can reasonably try to make a case for war in some circumstances, when would it ever be just to fight someone just because he rejected your invitation to believe in Imaginary Sky Friends (exactly what the leader of the hypocritically named “religion of peace” did)?

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You are sorely confused(Yes, I did mean Sorely)

Answering without waiting for my reply indicates you must be deeply prejudiced.

Stuart

February 20, 2010 at 4:58 am#179381

Participant

February 21, 2010 at 2:53 am#179549

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 20 2010,15:58)

Killing is forbidden in the koran…

…except for all the exceptions.

All those islamic suicide bombers must be following one of the exceptions, otherwise they would not be real muslims.

Stuart

February 21, 2010 at 3:23 am#179552

kejonn

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2010,23:01)

So a person who refrains from murder because they fear an imaginary god is better than a person who does so because they value life?

It has been shown time and time again that positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative.

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Imagine if you removed the law of the USA and said there are no laws and no prosecutions. Do you think that crime would increase? If so, then this answers your question.

Laws are there for a reason, and the punishment is supposed to be real. No imaginary punishment.

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If there is no God and no consequence for sin after your life ends, then some people will do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do if they believed that there is an eternal consequence to your sin.

Then those people are sick. Its a shame some need imaginary fear to keep in line. Too bad they don't value life more.

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Anyway for the sake of your question, I offer myself as proof of this. When I didn't believe in God I lived a life of crime.

Then you are a selfish person who only cares about himself. Even now, you prove that to be true. If you changed because of fear of some god, you did so to avoid personal punishment. It's all about you regardless of what you say.

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When I did believe, I repented of my old life. Now those ways have been buried. I have been a believer for more than 25 years now, and I have no desire to the old things I did. Even my old friends couldn't believe the change in me. Even better than that, was my understanding of my own weakness and knowing that God truly gave me strength to be able to change so much.

Its a true shame that it takes the fear of the imaginary to keep you in line as opposed to the betterment of your society.

February 21, 2010 at 5:19 am#179569

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 21 2010,14:23)

So a person who refrains from murder because they fear an imaginary god is better than a person who does so because they value life?

A person who doesn't believe in the truth that there is a judgement is more likely to do things that are unlawful.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

Not all fear is bad. Fear of jumping off a 50 foot cliff is a good thing.

February 21, 2010 at 5:39 am#179573

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 21 2010,16:19)

A person who doesn't believe in the truth that there is a judgement is more likely to do things that are unlawful.

Already disproved by the prison stats I quoted for you earlier.

Stuart

July 9, 2010 at 7:57 pm#202742