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Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,04:09) Quote (Gene @ July 13 2009,04:16) Thinker……….A image is never the real thing, it is the reflection of the real thing, Jesus reflected GOD to US, Because He obeyed Him, “I alway do those things that please the FATHER, not because He was TRUE GOD as ONLY the FATHER is. Even your example of the sun rays , is but a reflection of the sun but not the sun itself. There is Only ONE True GOD and NO More, all else must (IMAGE) Him but never (BE) HIM, including JESUS. Paladin Has correctly stated this in His explanation of IMAGE. With much love and peace to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene,
According to Hebrews 1 Jesus is the radiance of God's glory. Therefore, as the image of God Jesus is the extension of God's glory and NOT a mere reflection as you say. Thus He is the exact representation of God.thinker
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,So Jesus being the EXACT representation of God had to be perfected?
Jesus being the EXACT representation of God had to suffer in order to learn obedience?
Quote (Paladin @ July 15 2009,12:19) Quote (thethinker @ July 15 2009,11:10) Paladin said: Quote You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal. I have already answered this with Psalm 110:5. In verses 1-4 David receives the announcement of Messiah's reign. It is announced that the Messiah will sit at Jehovah's right hand. Verse 5-7 contain David's reply to what had been announced to him. He said,
Quote Adonai is at Your right hand…. The Hebrew Adonai is the proper name for God. Therefore, God is at Jehovah's right hand. Or do you deny that Christ is Representative God? You say that my post is a rehash of old arguments. Yet you force me to rehash on Psalm 110. Come up with something new and original for a change.
thinker
One more time for a brother.Jesus is called many things in scripture, but all have a proper application and a time in which it is applicable.
He is called a man in prophecy; as the seed of woman, seed of Abraham, seed of Isaac, seed of Jacob, seed of David, made of a woman.
He is called Adown in prophecy, as resurrected Lord.
He is called Elohim in prophecy as resurrected man.
He is called with us El in prophecy as a reminder that God has not forgotten his people.
He is called eternal Father in prophecy because God gave his children to Jesus.
He is called a man in his mission, because his mission is as the second Adam; the first also being a man.
He is a man at God's right hand; as a mediator between God and men.
He is a Man at God's right hand as the anointed appointed Judge of mankind.
He is the high priest of God, of the order of Melkizedek, anointed of God and appointed for an eternal length of time.
None of the above makes him God nor equal with God. God does not anoint God. He anoints man above his fellow men.
To say God anoints God because there is a verse that says “God thy God has anointed thee with gladness above thy fellows, fails to understand that “Elohim” does not MEAN “God.” It is TRANSLATED “God,” as well as “angels,” [Psa 8:5] and applied to men.
ABRAHAM IS CALLED ADOWN AND ELOHIM
Gen 23:6 Hear us, my Adown (Lord): thou art a Elohim (mighty) prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are Elohim (Gods); and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Gods?
So it does not make one God just based on scripture calling someone Elohim or Adown. There is always an application involved, which must be considered in understanding WHY man is called Elohim and Adown, or anything else.
Isaiah 26:13 O Jehovah [LORD] our Elohim [God], other Adown'm [Lords] beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
Every king of Israel was an “Adown” but they weren't God.
And I have already shown you that Adonay is God at Messiah's right hand. This is how they appear when facing each other; similar to what is said of logos in John 1, “face to face.”
PD Even though I do agree with some, I do not think that Jesus stayed a man. Also He had a glory with His Father before the World was.
John 17:5 ” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”
Scriptures tell me that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
Yet you say and I quote:He is a man at God's right Hand, as a Mediator between God and man.
Now I have heard everything. You better rethink this.
He was brought forth by our Heavenly Father and was a Spirit Being in the beginning. He is the firstborn of all creation. And through Him by the power of the Father created all. Most trinitarians want to say that it proves the trinity. It doesn't.
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
John 1:1
John 1:14 tells us that the Word became flesh and walked among us.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,13:23) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,04:09) Quote (Gene @ July 13 2009,04:16) Thinker……….A image is never the real thing, it is the reflection of the real thing, Jesus reflected GOD to US, Because He obeyed Him, “I alway do those things that please the FATHER, not because He was TRUE GOD as ONLY the FATHER is. Even your example of the sun rays , is but a reflection of the sun but not the sun itself. There is Only ONE True GOD and NO More, all else must (IMAGE) Him but never (BE) HIM, including JESUS. Paladin Has correctly stated this in His explanation of IMAGE. With much love and peace to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene,
According to Hebrews 1 Jesus is the radiance of God's glory. Therefore, as the image of God Jesus is the extension of God's glory and NOT a mere reflection as you say. Thus He is the exact representation of God.thinker
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,So Jesus being the EXACT representation of God had to be perfected?
Jesus being the EXACT representation of God had to suffer in order to learn obedience?
Jodi Lee,
See what I mean? I have asked all anti-trinitarians here to answer Hebrews 1:8-10 where the Father attributes creation to the Son. You have just joined the list of them who will not answer. You throw something at me for me to answer. Don't you think you should answer my point and then give me something to answer? Fact is anti-trinitarians cannot answer Hebrews 1:8-10.thinker
Hi TT,
Why do you titivate the edges of your doctrine when it has no actual basis in scriptural teaching?Quote (thethinker @ July 15 2009,19:51) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,13:23) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,04:09) Quote (Gene @ July 13 2009,04:16) Thinker……….A image is never the real thing, it is the reflection of the real thing, Jesus reflected GOD to US, Because He obeyed Him, “I always do those things that please the FATHER, not because He was TRUE GOD as ONLY the FATHER is. Even your example of the sun rays , is but a reflection of the sun but not the sun itself. There is Only ONE True GOD and NO More, all else must (IMAGE) Him but never (BE) HIM, including JESUS. Paladin Has correctly stated this in His explanation of IMAGE. With much love and peace to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene,
According to Hebrews 1 Jesus is the radiance of God's glory. Therefore, as the image of God Jesus is the extension of God's glory and NOT a mere reflection as you say. Thus He is the exact representation of God.thinker
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,So Jesus being the EXACT representation of God had to be perfected?
Jesus being the EXACT representation of God had to suffer in order to learn obedience?
Jodi Lee,
See what I mean? I have asked all anti-trinitarians here to answer Hebrews 1:8-10 where the Father attributes creation to the Son. You have just joined the list of them who will not answer. You throw something at me for me to answer. Don't you think you should answer my point and then give me something to answer? Fact is anti-trinitarians cannot answer Hebrews 1:8-10.thinker
I will be glad to answer you question. Yes God our Heavenly Father calls Jesus God. And He is the Mighty God, while our Heavenly Father is called the Almighty God. Many were called Gods, especially in the O.T. times many were called God. Satan is called God of this earth. He is keeping us captive, because of Adam and Eve. In verse 10 He tells us that He laid the foundation of this earth And when you read in Proverb 8:22-30 you will see how much more He did. Don't make the mistake like so many do, that it is Wisdom speaking. Jesus by the power of God created it. That proves not a trinity, if that is what you are replying.
The Father is greater then all it says in Ephesians 4:6
Rev. 3:14 is a very good Scripture also.
Deut. 4:35 ” Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God, there is none else beside Him.Deut. 6:4 ” Hear O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.”
1 Corinth.8:4 That there is none other God but one.”
But what what to me is the biggest prove is that Jesus Himself said that my Father is greater then I.
John 14:28One thing, when you see LORD ub capital lettera ut us always our Heavenly Father.
I rather feel for you, because we were once in the same shoes and believed the trinity doctrine. I don't know if I told you, but I taught it to our 4 Children. To of our Boys went to Catholic Schools. So you see once God opens your eyes to see, there is no return to a false doctrine.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,11:12) Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,12:09) Hi BD,
Where doe it say he had GOD”S GLORY or did you add this bit?He had his own glory as Jn1 tells us.
” The glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN..”
God is not begotten of anyone.
This is the single most ignored issue of the entire bible, when dealing with discussion with trinitarians. NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.NO ONE deals with the meaning of the Greek “gennao” as regards Jesus, the son of Mary. And the reason is just as simple. Because they are confused by reading John 1:1 PRIOR to understanding the logos, as explained in this thread;
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2403Excellent point.
Hi PDBut your long exegesis can't even get past the first 3 verses of John ch 1.
Especially this part…
“And the Word was God” or “God was the Word”!
WJ
All you have said is an admission that you dismissed the entire post in order to hang on to the devil's own gospel of the kingdom.John was NOT written before the books and letters of Paul, and James, and Peter. So there can be NO understanding of logos from John's writings prior to when they were written.
You have decided to hang on to your trinity despite what the scriptures teach, and think it is clever to outright dismiss any response that threatens that stance.
By taking that attitude, you lose. You could be in the position of helping to better understand the real teaching of scriptures, instead of trying so desparately to hang on to a doctrine developed over several centuries of inventing words to make clear what was meant to begin with.
I only pray God will show you how this makes sense, because trinity certainly does NOT.
Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,11:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,11:53) Hi TT, Jesus had glory WITH GOD.
Any child will tell you that is you are with someone you are not the one you are with.
You we will show us a third person apart from God and His Son perhaps with another private throne?
But that would make three gods?
Nick,
Gobbledygook friend. Jesus had God's glory which infers He was God because God doesn't share His glory with anyone else but God. He was WITH God in His bosom which means that He was a part of God.thinker
You are mixing and stirring what does not go together.Jesus is in the bosom of the Father, NOW! He was not in the bosom of the father in some pre-existent state of being.
The glory he had with the father is in the same category as the “eternal life” we had in promise before the world began. Both were had in potential, not in historic reality, before the world was made.
Does having eternal life “infer” we “are God?” It is a silly argument at best, and an insult to intelligence at worst.
Tha tis the main problem with trinity doctrine, it is built over many hundreds of years on inference and definitions new to scripture.
You keep speaking of a proof Jesus is God being that he is in God's bosom, but that did not take place until his resurrection and ascension.
AND you still have not dealt with the Greek “Gennao” – begotten; “caused to be.”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,11:20) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,19:10) Paladin said: Quote You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal. I have already answered this with Psalm 110:5. In verses 1-4 David receives the announcement of Messiah's reign. It is announced that the Messiah will sit at Jehovah's right hand. Verse 5-7 contain David's reply to what had been announced to him. He said,
Quote Adonai is at Your right hand…. The Hebrew Adonai is the proper name for God. Therefore, God is at Jehovah's right hand. Or do you deny that Christ is Representative God? You say that my post is a rehash of old arguments. Yet you force me to rehash on Psalm 110. Come up with something new and original for a change.
thinker
Hi JackTrue!
PD says…
Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.
Yet he himself acts as if he is not rehashing old Unitarian doctrine with a different slant.WJ
“Old but different” is not the same. THAT is what is called “NEW” in almost any language on earth.It is “new” because it returns to the original chronology of how scripture was published by the Holy Spirit. It returns to when scripture was “NEW.”
You really ought to try it sometime. You will be amazed at how many doctrines of men fall by the way.
You will find no “unitarian doctrine” ANYWHERE that teaches what I teach, because I am not a Unitarian, nor a trinitarian, I am a Christian. And Christians are told to “handle aright the word of truth.”
The whole scholar-driven religious experience tries to convince people to do it otherwise, following Satan's aggenda; beginning Christian studies with the “Life of Christ” ergo, John 1:1. It is a grave mistake.
Quote (thethinker @ July 15 2009,11:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,11:20) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,19:10) Paladin said: Quote You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal. I have already answered this with Psalm 110:5. In verses 1-4 David receives the announcement of Messiah's reign. It is announced that the Messiah will sit at Jehovah's right hand. Verse 5-7 contain David's reply to what had been announced to him. He said,
Quote Adonai is at Your right hand…. The Hebrew Adonai is the proper name for God. Therefore, God is at Jehovah's right hand. Or do you deny that Christ is Representative God? You say that my post is a rehash of old arguments. Yet you force me to rehash on Psalm 110. Come up with something new and original for a change.
thinker
Hi JackTrue!
PD says…
Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.
Yet he himself acts as if he is not rehashing old Unitarian doctrine with a different slant.WJ
WJ,
Paladin also gives a funky Greek grammar. I have noticed that he has backed off lately on the Greek. It's a good thing too after that whoopin he got over the aorist indicative.thinker
You wish. You evidently have not been reading the thread.Your little “addition” of “Aorist indicative” to the original argument has not gone unnoticed.
It was YOUR post that began the argument with “The Greek Aorist is past tense.”
Nothing about “indicative” until YOUR butt was thoroughly and resoundingly kicked.
Only THEN did you begin to realize “Greek Aorist” does NOT mean “past tense” and you scrounged around until you found one application where it DOES represent the Englsih past tense. It still is not “past tense” in the Greek.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,12:37) Excellent Post Paladin!! Would you mind if I copied it and add it to a word document I have, so I can use it for future reference?
You are fee to copy and use anything I post just so long as you find some way to give God the glory.Quote (thethinker @ July 15 2009,12:48)
I want to show you something TT.You present as proof that Jesus is God, the fact that he is identified as “adown” and “Adonay.”
I show you how this doesn't prove Jesus is God, and instead of aknowledging that , you immediately jump back into the fray with “God didn't say any OTHER Adown created heaven and earth.
So NOW your argumment has nothing to do with being called Adown, but only has to do with being called creator?
THAT has already been dealt with and typically, IGNORED.
(thinker)
Paladin said:Quote Every king of Israel was an “Adown” but they weren't God. (thinker) When did the Father credit any other king with creating the heavens and the earth?
Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands (Heb. 1:8).
This has not been answered by you.(P) Since it is against the rules of the board to keep publishing the same information time after time, I will refrain from reproving it to you. But it HAS been dealt with.
(thinker)
Paladin said:Quote And I have already shown you that Adonay is God at Messiah's right hand. This is how they appear when facing each other; similar to what is said of logos in John 1, “face to face.” You did not “show it.” You assumed it. In verses 1-4 David received the announcement of Messiah's reign at Jehovah's right hand. Verses 5-7 contain David's reply to Jehovah saying, “My Adonai (God) is at your right hand” (vs. 5). If Christ is on Jehovah's right hand then Jehovah would be on Messiah's left. David was replying to Jehovah concerning the announcement of Messiah's reign. He was speaking to Jehovah saying, “My Adonai (God) is at your right hand.” This is proven by the fact that verses 6-7 say that Messiah (Adonai) will judge the nations.[/quote]
WRONG!
If you and I are on each other's right hand, we are facing each other. As for “assuming” anything, I am simply following the example laid down by your “scholars” who try to establish Jesus as prehistorically sitting “fact to face” with God in the beginning, as regards the meaning of “with” in John 1:1.
What happened to your faith in your “scholars?”
Quote (thethinker @ July 15 2009,12:53) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,12:37) Excellent Post Paladin!! Would you mind if I copied it and add it to a word document I have, so I can use it for future reference?
Jodi lee,
Not so fast. Read my post immediately above. The Father attributed the creation of the heavens and the earth to the Son. To what other king did the Father say this,Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands (Heb. 1:8).
No anti-trinitarian here has answered this including Paladin.thinker
If I answer it again, will you print it out and place it over your computer?I have already answered it and you ignored it.
Do you want the truth? Or do you just want what may in some minor circles, look like a victory?
Quote (Paladin @ July 16 2009,00:33) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,12:37) Excellent Post Paladin!! Would you mind if I copied it and add it to a word document I have, so I can use it for future reference?
You are fee to copy and use anything I post just so long as you find some way to give God the glory.
Thanks Paladin!Could you link me to the thread and maybe the page, of where you discussed Hebrews 1:10? I'd like to read what you wrote, thanks.
Irene said:
Quote Jesus by the power of God created it. That proves not a trinity, if that is what you are replying. Irene,
You disagree with the Father. He said that the Son created by His own hands.Quote You Lord from the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the wotk of Your hands .
So it doesn't say Jesus created by the power of God. It says that He created by His own hands
I will give you credit for trying Irene. Paladin has avoided Hebrews 1:8-10 like the plague. Does someone want to take a number and take another lame shot at contradicting the Father?
thinker
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 16 2009,01:50) Quote (Paladin @ July 16 2009,00:33) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,12:37) Excellent Post Paladin!! Would you mind if I copied it and add it to a word document I have, so I can use it for future reference?
You are fee to copy and use anything I post just so long as you find some way to give God the glory.
Thanks Paladin!Could you link me to the thread and maybe the page, of where you discussed Hebrews 1:10? I'd like to read what you wrote, thanks.
For you:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2453Here is another with perhaps a little more information.
Psa 102:24-27
24: I said, O my (El) God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.25: Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26: They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.Heb 1:10-12 (Quoted from Psa 102:24-27 and applied to Resurrected Christ)
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, ~Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. [~Lord is Grk – vocative]God made all things, and appointed Jesus as overseer, till the end of time.
“God that made the world and all things therein…” -Acts 17:24“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the ages;” -Heb 1:2
Through faith we understand that the aions (ages) were (adjusted) framed by the (rhema) word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. -Hebrews 11:3
In Gen 17:4-5 God makes two amazing statements; Amazing in the sense of the verb tenses involved – 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou SHALT BE a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations HAVE I MADE thee.
Paul explains this by direct quote in his letter to the saints at Rome – Rom 4:17 “As it is written, I HAVE MADE thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.”
Sometimes, God does not wait for things to be historically accurate before he references them as being real.
Is the foundation of the earth, laid by Jehovah in the original creation, the same foundation of the earth, laid by Jesus Christ, in the beginning of the new creation? In Scripture, that there were two creations, requiring two foundations, is borne out by the statements of God as found in Isaiah 51:13 and 16.
God says He has already “stretched” the heavens and “LAID” the foundations of earth [Isa 51:13] “And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?
But God also provides that He “May plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth” yet again: [Isa 51:16] And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
God had already PROPHESIED unto his people through Isaiah, [Isa 42:9] “Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
“BEFORE THEY SPRING FORTH I TELL YOU OF THEM.” That is the definition of prophecy. And Paul the apostle understands this very well, as expressed in [Rom 4:17] “…God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not, as though they were.” “NEW THINGS” of which God speaks, before they happen, are prophecies. And He told them of these “new things” in the law of Moses, in the prophets, and in these Psalms.
Behold a prophetic utterance, messianic in scope: [Isa 42:10] Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. 12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. 13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. 15 I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. 16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight.
These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. (See also Isa 40:4; 45:2; 59:8; and their fulfillment in [Luke 3:5] “Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.” Also references of the blind seeing, and many others, too numerous to count.
God speaks of a “new thing” which the Israelites understood to be a change from what they knew; [Isa 43:19] Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
God spoke of a “new name” by which they would be called: [Isa 62:2] And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. This is fulfilled in [Acts 11:26] “The disciples were called Christians, first in Antioch.”
NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH: [Isa 65:17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
This NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH was to be for ALL FLESH; i.e. Jews and Gentiles coming together as Christians: [Isa 66:22] For as the new heavens an
d the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.God revealed in prophecy, his intent to make a NEW COVENANT: Jer 31:31 –
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
NEW HEART – NEW SPIRIT for the people of God: [Eze 18:31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit… [Eze 36:26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
All the statements made by Jesus about putting NEW WINE into OLD WINESKINS come from this prophesy: [Joel 3:18] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
Many are the “NEW THINGS” presented by Jesus and the apostles, throughout the New Testament.
NEW TESTAMENT: [Mat 26:28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. [Mark 14:24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
[1 Cor 11:25] After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
[Heb 9:15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
NEW CELEBRATION IN THE KINGDOM, FOLLOWING THE RESURRECTION: [Mat 26:29] “But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
NEW DOCTRINE: [Mark 1:27] And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. [Acts 17:19] And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
Speak with NEW TONGUES: [Mark 16:17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
A NEW COMMANDMENT: [John 13:34] A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
[1 John 2:7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[2 John 1:5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
A NEW LUMP, casting out the leaven of the old things: [1 Cor 5:7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
A NEW CREATURE: [2 Cor 5:17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
[Gal 6:15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
A NEW MAN: [Eph 2:15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[Eph 4:24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
THE NEW COVENANT: [Heb 8:8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[Heb 8:13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
[Heb 12:24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
A NEW AND LIVING WAY: [Heb 10:20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH: [2 Pet 3:13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.
It is obvious from reading the old testament, that there was to be a new heaven and a new earth. And it is just as obvious from the New Testament, that Jesus brought about a new heaven and a new earth of the same fashion as the kingdom which he served so thoroughly, the kingdom which is “Not of this world.” [John 18:36]
When Jesus preached his “sermon on the mount” recorded im Mathew chapters 5 through 7, he preached a “new earth” because it gives us a new approach to getting along with our fellows, and when he entered heaven to sit at God's right hand, all principalities and powers and thrones and dominions had to move down one place to accomodate his new position as second in the kingdom. EVERYTHING was in a new situation compare with what it was the day before.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, ~Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: [~Lord is vocative] 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. [A folded vesture is not a melted earth. It is NOT speaking of the same creation as that which will be “melted with a fervent heat.”]
Paladin said:
Quote If you and I are on each other's right hand, we are facing each other. As for “assuming” anything, I am simply following the example laid down by your “scholars” who try to establish Jesus as prehistorically sitting “fact to face” with God in the beginning, as regards the meaning of “with” in John 1:1. What happened to your faith in your “scholars?”
I don't know what you are talking about. You are the first I have come across who says that being on the right hand means face to face. You say that my scholars say this but you don't give an example. I know they say that “with” in John 1:1 means face to face. But I have never heard anyone say that the expression “right hand” means face to face. Verses 5-7 of Psalm 110 contain David's reply to Jehovah of that which was announced in verses 1-4. He said
Quote My Adonai (God) is at Your right hand. Verses 6-7 confirm what I am saying. It says that “He” (Adonai) shall judge the nations. This is Messianic. My “scholars” agree,
Quote 5-7. The victory of the Priest-King. The Lord at thy right hand. The scene changes now to the battlefield, where the Lord at Yahweh's right hand will shatter all his foes. The vivid language and the prophetic perfect tenses are designed to show clearly the completeness of the victory. (Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Moody press, p. 536-537). See there. My “scholars” say that verses 5-7 indicate that the scene changes to the battlefied where the Priest-King at Yahweh's right hand will shatter all his foes. Your view that Messiah and Yahweh are at each other's right hand is nonsense. Your idea that Yahweh is at Messiah's right hand has no basis at all in Scripture.
You have put words into the mouths of trinitarian scholars.
thinker
Quote (Paladin @ July 16 2009,00:18) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,11:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,11:53) Hi TT, Jesus had glory WITH GOD.
Any child will tell you that is you are with someone you are not the one you are with.
You we will show us a third person apart from God and His Son perhaps with another private throne?
But that would make three gods?
Nick,
Gobbledygook friend. Jesus had God's glory which infers He was God because God doesn't share His glory with anyone else but God. He was WITH God in His bosom which means that He was a part of God.thinker
You are mixing and stirring what does not go together.Jesus is in the bosom of the Father, NOW! He was not in the bosom of the father in some pre-existent state of being.
The glory he had with the father is in the same category as the “eternal life” we had in promise before the world began. Both were had in potential, not in historic reality, before the world was made.
Does having eternal life “infer” we “are God?” It is a silly argument at best, and an insult to intelligence at worst.
Tha tis the main problem with trinity doctrine, it is built over many hundreds of years on inference and definitions new to scripture.
You keep speaking of a proof Jesus is God being that he is in God's bosom, but that did not take place until his resurrection and ascension.
AND you still have not dealt with the Greek “Gennao” – begotten; “caused to be.”
Again I disagree with you. There are other Scriptures that prove that Jesus did preexisted before He became a man. If what you are saying about John 27:5 would be the only Scripture I might think that you are right. Rev. 3:14 tells us that He is the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible…….
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist.the next verse is a very importent verse
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the firstborn from the death, THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE THE PREEMENINCE. meaning He WAS FIRST TO BE BORN AS A SPIRIT BEING AND FIRST TO BE RESURRETED FROM DEAD.
Along with all of this goes John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God. I said before that God is a tittle, in the O.T. times many were called God. Satan too is called the God of this world.
Remmeber that all is by the power of the Father.
verse 3 ” All things were made by Him and through Him nothing was made that was made.
verse 14 tells us that the Word became flesh.
You probable know that some think that it was the Fathers intellect. And that intellect became a man? Give me a break, if you think so too.I sure you do take all this in consideration. There are a few members that do believe this too. My hope is that all come to the understanding of the truth. When someone told me about this, I taught He was crazy, but we studied it and it is the truth.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Paladin @ July 15 2009,08:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,11:12) Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,12:09) Hi BD,
Where doe it say he had GOD”S GLORY or did you add this bit?He had his own glory as Jn1 tells us.
” The glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN..”
God is not begotten of anyone.
This is the single most ignored issue of the entire bible, when dealing with discussion with trinitarians. NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.NO ONE deals with the meaning of the Greek “gennao” as regards Jesus, the son of Mary. And the reason is just as simple. Because they are confused by reading John 1:1 PRIOR to understanding the logos, as explained in this thread;
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2403Excellent point.
Hi PDBut your long exegesis can't even get past the first 3 verses of John ch 1.
Especially this part…
“And the Word was God” or “God was the Word”!
WJ
All you have said is an admission that you dismissed the entire post in order to hang on to the devil's own gospel of the kingdom.John was NOT written before the books and letters of Paul, and James, and Peter. So there can be NO understanding of logos from John's writings prior to when they were written.
You have decided to hang on to your trinity despite what the scriptures teach, and think it is clever to outright dismiss any response that threatens that stance.
By taking that attitude, you lose. You could be in the position of helping to better understand the real teaching of scriptures, instead of trying so desparately to hang on to a doctrine developed over several centuries of inventing words to make clear what was meant to begin with.
I only pray God will show you how this makes sense, because trinity certainly does NOT.
Hi PDIt doesnt matter when John wrote John 1 because the scripture says “The Word was God” or “God was the Word” and according to John 1:14 that Word/God became flesh which confirms many other scriptures!
What part of “the Word was God” is not clear to you?
WJ
Quote (Paladin @ July 15 2009,08:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,11:20) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,19:10) Paladin said: Quote You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal. I have already answered this with Psalm 110:5. In verses 1-4 David receives the announcement of Messiah's reign. It is announced that the Messiah will sit at Jehovah's right hand. Verse 5-7 contain David's reply to what had been announced to him. He said,
Quote Adonai is at Your right hand…. The Hebrew Adonai is the proper name for God. Therefore, God is at Jehovah's right hand. Or do you deny that Christ is Representative God? You say that my post is a rehash of old arguments. Yet you force me to rehash on Psalm 110. Come up with something new and original for a change.
thinker
Hi JackTrue!
PD says…
Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.
Yet he himself acts as if he is not rehashing old Unitarian doctrine with a different slant.WJ
“Old but different” is not the same. THAT is what is called “NEW” in almost any language on earth.It is “new” because it returns to the original chronology of how scripture was published by the Holy Spirit. It returns to when scripture was “NEW.”
You really ought to try it sometime. You will be amazed at how many doctrines of men fall by the way.
You will find no “unitarian doctrine” ANYWHERE that teaches what I teach, because I am not a Unitarian, nor a trinitarian, I am a Christian. And Christians are told to “handle aright the word of truth.”
The whole scholar-driven religious experience tries to convince people to do it otherwise, following Satan's aggenda; beginning Christian studies with the “Life of Christ” ergo, John 1:1. It is a grave mistake.
Quote (Paladin @ July 15 2009,08:26) “Old but different” is not the same. THAT is what is called “NEW” in almost any language on earth. Not so, because the end result is still the same, “Jesus had no preexistense and is not God”, even though the scriptures declare that he was and is.
Still Unitarian, still Old!
WJ
Quote (Cindy @ July 16 2009,03:29) [/quote] Quote (Paladin @ July 16 2009,00:18) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,11:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,11:53) Hi TT, Jesus had glory WITH GOD.
Any child will tell you that is you are with someone you are not the one you are with.
You we will show us a third person apart from God and His Son perhaps with another private throne?
But that would make three gods?
Nick,
Gobbledygook friend. Jesus had God's glory which infers He was God because God doesn't share His glory with anyone else but God. He was WITH God in His bosom which means that He was a part of God.thinker
You are mixing and stirring what does not go together.
Jesus is in the bosom of the Father, NOW! He was not in the bosom of the father in some pre-existent state of being.
The glory he had with the father is in the same category as the “eternal life” we had in promise before the world began. Both were had in potential, not in historic reality, before the world was made.
Does having eternal life “infer” we “are God?” It is a silly argument at best, and an insult to intelligence at worst.
That is the main problem with trinity doctrine, it is built over many hundreds of years on inference and definitions new to scripture.
You keep speaking of a proof Jesus is God being that he is in God's bosom, but that did not take place until his resurrection and ascension.
AND you still have not dealt with the Greek “Gennao” – begotten; “caused to be.”
(Cindy)
Quote Again I disagree with you. There are other Scriptures that prove that Jesus did preexisted before He became a man. If what you are saying about John 27:5 would be the only Scripture I might think that you are right. Rev. 3:14 tells us that He is the firstborn of all creation.
True. But Rev 3:14 was written in 69 a.d., well after Jesus ascended to the right hand of God, where he is established as the firstborn of a new type of creation.
If the term meant firstborn of all that was created, then Romans 8:29 would not make sense. He would already be the firstborn among many brethren. No, it is speaking of the new type of being, resurrected one, born from the dead. “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” [Rom 8:29]
Quote
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.Again, this does not require his preexistence. It requires that he be firstborn of the dead, the new creatures. Trinitarians can never deal with the issue this raises if it IS the firstborn of creation; “born” Means “caused to be.” We know how he is “caused to be” firstborn from the dead. How is he “caused to be” firstborn of creation?
Quote
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible…….
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist.Already covered in another thread.
Quote the next verse is a very importent verse
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the firstborn from the death, THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE THE PREEMENINCE. meaning He WAS FIRST TO BE BORN AS A SPIRIT BEING AND FIRST TO BE RESURRETED FROM DEAD.Now you are putting in words that are not in the verse. Nothing is said about Jesus being born as a spirit being, other than Mat 1:20 and John 3:6. “He is Gennao of the spirit, and what is gennao of the spirit is spirit.”
[quot]
Along with all of this goes John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God. I said before that God is a title, in the O.T. times many were called God. Satan too is called the God of this world.Already covered in another thread.
Quote Remember that all is by the power of the Father.
verse 3 ” All things were made by Him and through Him nothing was made that was made.
verse 14 tells us that the Word became flesh.
You probable know that some think that it was the Fathers intellect. And that intellect became a man? Give me a break, if you think so too.I am not one of “those.” Jesus “became a man” in the same way Eve became a woman.” Eve was made from Adam's rib. Jesus was “made from a woman.” [Gal 4:4] This is the meaning of Jesus' words when he said “I came down from heaven.” Remember when he spoke of John's baptism? He said “Whence is it, from heaven or of men?” He was speaking about its source of authority. It was ALWAYS about authority when he said “I came down from heaven.”
You and I and every person on this earth came from Eden, and the plan set into motion by God when he said “they two will become one flesh,” and children began to populate the earth from that union. Jesus did not come from that type of union, neither did Adam, nor Eve. And Adam is the type of Christ, making Jesus the antitype of Adam.
When scripture speaks of Jesus being the firstborn of every creature, he is speaking of the new creature, resurrected ones. Look at the timing of when those statements are made. It is AFTER his resurrection.
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