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Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,09:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,09:02) Hi TT,
So what scripture says about God being the head of Christ is not correct in your opinion?
What scripture that says that Christ is God is not correct in your opinion?thinker
Since there is no such verse, it is a moot queston.Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The anointed is at God's right hand.
Prophecy proclaimed A MAN would be at God's right hand;
Psalm 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,10:16) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,09:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,09:02) Hi TT,
So what scripture says about God being the head of Christ is not correct in your opinion?
What scripture that says that Christ is God is not correct in your opinion?thinker
Since there is no such verse, it is a moot queston.Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The anointed is at God's right hand.
Prophecy proclaimed A MAN would be at God's right hand;
Psalm 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
Amen!Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,10:16) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,09:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,09:02) Hi TT,
So what scripture says about God being the head of Christ is not correct in your opinion?
What scripture that says that Christ is God is not correct in your opinion?thinker
Since there is no such verse, it is a moot queston.Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The anointed is at God's right hand.
Prophecy proclaimed A MAN would be at God's right hand;
Psalm 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
“Looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).“In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God….And the Word was made flesh… and we beheld HIS GLORY“
“O Father, glorify Me together with the glory I had together with You before the world began”
Would you like me to stop now? Naah,
“For if you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.”
When you have lifted up the Son of Man then you shall know that I AM.”
“Before Abraham was I AM.”
“I am the First and I am the Last.”
“And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the everlasting father, the Prince of peace.”
“To the Son He [the Father] saith, “Your throne O God is forever and ever…In the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of your hands.”
thinker
Hi TT,
So because Jesus had glory with God you somehow take that as him being that God?
One and one makes two and not three but you say three?
Where is the missing 'third person' again?
Non sequitor.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,10:42) Hi TT,
So because Jesus had glory with God you somehow take that as him being that God?
One and one makes two and not three but you say three?
Where is the missing 'third person' again?
Non sequitor.
He had glory with the Father. So you admit that He had glory? What missing third person? I gave you Isaiah 48:12-16. All you need is to read it.thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus had glory WITH GOD.
Any child will tell you that is you are with someone you are not the one you are with.
You we will show us a third person apart from God and His Son perhaps with another private throne?
But that would make three gods?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,11:53) Hi TT, Jesus had glory WITH GOD.
Any child will tell you that is you are with someone you are not the one you are with.
You we will show us a third person apart from God and His Son perhaps with another private throne?
But that would make three gods?
Nick,
Gobbledygook friend. Jesus had God's glory which infers He was God because God doesn't share His glory with anyone else but God. He was WITH God in His bosom which means that He was a part of God.thinker
Hi BD,
Where does it say he had GOD”S GLORY or did you add this bit?He had his own glory as Jn1 tells us.
” The glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN..”
God is not begotten of anyone.Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,10:39) Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,10:16) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,09:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,09:02) Hi TT,
So what scripture says about God being the head of Christ is not correct in your opinion?
What scripture that says that Christ is God is not correct in your opinion?thinker
(P) Since there is no such verse, it is a moot queston.
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The anointed is at God's right hand.
Prophecy proclaimed A MAN would be at God's right hand;
Psalm 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.Quote
“Looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal.
It should read from the Greek “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ;” [Titus 2:13]
You really should quit trying to respond to argument with doctrine.
(thinker)
Quote
“O Father, glorify Me together with the glory I had together with You before the world began”Right there in the same category with that “eternal life” we were promised before the world began,[Titus 1:2]; and the
HIDDEN WISDOM TO BE REVEALED FOR OUR GLORY:
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained BEFORE THE WORLD unto our glory: And the Holy Calling we had in christ before the world was, none of which we were present with God to enjoy before the foundation of the world.ALL THE REST OF YOUR POST is a rehash of old arguments already dealt with and ignored by you. You really must learn to categorize your information into two groups, one being the issues you have already been rebutted successfully, and the other, much smaller, any issues remaining to be rebutted.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,12:09) Hi BD,
Where doe it say he had GOD”S GLORY or did you add this bit?He had his own glory as Jn1 tells us.
” The glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN..”
God is not begotten of anyone.
This is the single most ignored issue of the entire bible, when dealing with discussion with trinitarians. NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.NO ONE deals with the meaning of the Greek “gennao” as regards Jesus, the son of Mary. And the reason is just as simple. Because they are confused by reading John 1:1 PRIOR to understanding the logos, as explained in this thread;
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2403Excellent point.
Paladin said:
Quote You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal. I have already answered this with Psalm 110:5. In verses 1-4 David receives the announcement of Messiah's reign. It is announced that the Messiah will sit at Jehovah's right hand. Verse 5-7 contain David's reply to what had been announced to him. He said,
Quote Adonai is at Your right hand…. The Hebrew Adonai is the proper name for God. Therefore, God is at Jehovah's right hand. Or do you deny that Christ is Representative God? You say that my post is a rehash of old arguments. Yet you force me to rehash on Psalm 110. Come up with something new and original for a change.
thinker
Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,12:09) Hi BD,
Where doe it say he had GOD”S GLORY or did you add this bit?He had his own glory as Jn1 tells us.
” The glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN..”
God is not begotten of anyone.
This is the single most ignored issue of the entire bible, when dealing with discussion with trinitarians. NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.NO ONE deals with the meaning of the Greek “gennao” as regards Jesus, the son of Mary. And the reason is just as simple. Because they are confused by reading John 1:1 PRIOR to understanding the logos, as explained in this thread;
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2403Excellent point.
Hi PDBut your long exegesis can't even get past the first 3 verses of John ch 1.
Especially this part…
“And the Word was God” or “God was the Word”!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,11:12) Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,12:09) Hi BD,
Where doe it say he had GOD”S GLORY or did you add this bit?He had his own glory as Jn1 tells us.
” The glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN..”
God is not begotten of anyone.
This is the single most ignored issue of the entire bible, when dealing with discussion with trinitarians. NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.NO ONE deals with the meaning of the Greek “gennao” as regards Jesus, the son of Mary. And the reason is just as simple. Because they are confused by reading John 1:1 PRIOR to understanding the logos, as explained in this thread;
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2403Excellent point.
Hi PDBut your long exegesis can't even get past the first 3 verses of John ch 1.
Especially this part…
“And the Word was God” or “God was the Word”!
WJ
WJ,
Verse 14 too. It says “and we beheld His glory.” That glory is then identified as the Father's glory. John 1 destroys every anti-trinitarian argument.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,19:10) Paladin said: Quote You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal. I have already answered this with Psalm 110:5. In verses 1-4 David receives the announcement of Messiah's reign. It is announced that the Messiah will sit at Jehovah's right hand. Verse 5-7 contain David's reply to what had been announced to him. He said,
Quote Adonai is at Your right hand…. The Hebrew Adonai is the proper name for God. Therefore, God is at Jehovah's right hand. Or do you deny that Christ is Representative God? You say that my post is a rehash of old arguments. Yet you force me to rehash on Psalm 110. Come up with something new and original for a change.
thinker
Hi JackTrue!
PD says…
Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.
Yet he himself acts as if he is not rehashing old Unitarian doctrine with a different slant.WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,11:20) Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,19:10) Paladin said: Quote You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal. I have already answered this with Psalm 110:5. In verses 1-4 David receives the announcement of Messiah's reign. It is announced that the Messiah will sit at Jehovah's right hand. Verse 5-7 contain David's reply to what had been announced to him. He said,
Quote Adonai is at Your right hand…. The Hebrew Adonai is the proper name for God. Therefore, God is at Jehovah's right hand. Or do you deny that Christ is Representative God? You say that my post is a rehash of old arguments. Yet you force me to rehash on Psalm 110. Come up with something new and original for a change.
thinker
Hi JackTrue!
PD says…
Quote (Paladin @ July 14 2009,14:16) NONE has responded with anything other than doctrine, or rehash of old errors.
Yet he himself acts as if he is not rehashing old Unitarian doctrine with a different slant.WJ
WJ,
Paladin also gives a funky Greek grammar. I have noticed that he has backed off lately on the Greek. It's a good thing too after that whoopin he got over the aorist indicative.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 15 2009,11:10) Paladin said: Quote You see thinker, this is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post. I give you a verse that tells you something important, and you offer a sound bite that could mean any of several things, supposedly as rebuttal. I have already answered this with Psalm 110:5. In verses 1-4 David receives the announcement of Messiah's reign. It is announced that the Messiah will sit at Jehovah's right hand. Verse 5-7 contain David's reply to what had been announced to him. He said,
Quote Adonai is at Your right hand…. The Hebrew Adonai is the proper name for God. Therefore, God is at Jehovah's right hand. Or do you deny that Christ is Representative God? You say that my post is a rehash of old arguments. Yet you force me to rehash on Psalm 110. Come up with something new and original for a change.
thinker
One more time for a brother.Jesus is called many things in scripture, but all have a proper application and a time in which it is applicable.
He is called a man in prophecy; as the seed of woman, seed of Abraham, seed of Isaac, seed of Jacob, seed of David, made of a woman.
He is called Adown in prophecy, as resurrected Lord.
He is called Elohim in prophecy as resurrected man.
He is called with us El in prophecy as a reminder that God has not forgotten his people.
He is called eternal Father in prophecy because God gave his children to Jesus.
He is called a man in his mission, because his mission is as the second Adam; the first also being a man.
He is a man at God's right hand; as a mediator between God and men.
He is a Man at God's right hand as the anointed appointed Judge of mankind.
He is the high priest of God, of the order of Melkizedek, anointed of God and appointed for an eternal length of time.
None of the above makes him God nor equal with God. God does not anoint God. He anoints man above his fellow men.
To say God anoints God because there is a verse that says “God thy God has anointed thee with gladness above thy fellows, fails to understand that “Elohim” does not MEAN “God.” It is TRANSLATED “God,” as well as “angels,” [Psa 8:5] and applied to men.
ABRAHAM IS CALLED ADOWN AND ELOHIM
Gen 23:6 Hear us, my Adown (Lord): thou art a Elohim (mighty) prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are Elohim (Gods); and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Gods?
So it does not make one God just based on scripture calling someone Elohim or Adown. There is always an application involved, which must be considered in understanding WHY man is called Elohim and Adown, or anything else.
Isaiah 26:13 O Jehovah [LORD] our Elohim [God], other Adown'm [Lords] beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
Every king of Israel was an “Adown” but they weren't God.
And I have already shown you that Adonay is God at Messiah's right hand. This is how they appear when facing each other; similar to what is said of logos in John 1, “face to face.”
Excellent Post Paladin!!
Would you mind if I copied it and add it to a word document I have, so I can use it for future reference?
Paladin said:
Quote One more time for a brother. Jesus is called many things in scripture, but all have a proper application and a time in which it is applicable.
He is called a man in prophecy; as the seed of woman, seed of Abraham, seed of Isaac, seed of Jacob, seed of David, made of a woman.
He is called Adown in prophecy, as resurrected Lord.
He is called Elohim in prophecy as resurrected man.
He is called with us El in prophecy as a reminder that God has not forgotten his people.
He is called eternal Father in prophecy because God gave his children to Jesus.
He is called a man in his mission, because his mission is as the second Adam; the first also being a man.
He is a man at God's right hand; as a mediator between God and men.
He is a Man at God's right hand as the anointed appointed Judge of mankind.
He is the high priest of God, of the order of Melkizedek, anointed of God and appointed for an eternal length of time.
None of the above makes him God nor equal with God. God does not anoint God. He anoints man above his fellow men.
To say God anoints God because there is a verse that says “God thy God has anointed thee with gladness above thy fellows, fails to understand that “Elohim” does not MEAN “God.” It is TRANSLATED “God,” as well as “angels,” [Psa 8:5] and applied to men.
ABRAHAM IS CALLED ADOWN AND ELOHIM
Gen 23:6 Hear us, my Adown (Lord): thou art a Elohim (mighty) prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are Elohim (Gods); and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Gods?
So it does not make one God just based on scripture calling someone Elohim or Adown. There is always an application involved, which must be considered in understanding WHY man is called Elohim and Adown, or anything else.
Isaiah 26:13 O Jehovah [LORD] our Elohim [God], other Adown'm [Lords] beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
Add it all up and Jesus is God!
Paladin said:
Quote Every king of Israel was an “Adown” but they weren't God. When did the Father credit any other king with creating the heavens and the earth?
Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands (Heb. 1:8).
This has not been answered by you.Paladin said:
Quote And I have already shown you that Adonay is God at Messiah's right hand. This is how they appear when facing each other; similar to what is said of logos in John 1, “face to face.” You did not “show it.” You assumed it. In verses 1-4 David received the announcement of Messiah's reign at Jehovah's right hand. Verses 5-7 contain David's reply to Jehovah saying, “My Adonai (God) is at your right hand” (vs. 5). If Christ is on Jehovah's right hand then Jehovah would be on Messiah's left. David was replying to Jehovah concerning the announcement of Messiah's reign. He was speaking to Jehovah saying, “My Adonai (God) is at your right hand.” This is proven by the fact that verses 6-7 say that Messiah (Adonai) will judge the nations.
thinker
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,12:37) Excellent Post Paladin!! Would you mind if I copied it and add it to a word document I have, so I can use it for future reference?
Jodi lee,
Not so fast. Read my post immediately above. The Father attributed the creation of the heavens and the earth to the Son. To what other king did the Father say this,Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands (Heb. 1:8).
No anti-trinitarian here has answered this including Paladin.thinker
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