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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,05:07) Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,12:34) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,03:07) Quote (Gene @ July 12 2009,01:38) Thinker……….Jesus is not the radiance of GOD's Glory, GOD's Glory radiates (through) Him. big difference. One looks at Jesus the other looks at the FATHER who is doing the WORK through Jesus. “The Father in me does the (WORK)> Trinitarians and Preexistences, turn this around and Make Jesus Himself the WORK stealing Glory from the FATHER. As Jesus stated all that came before me were lairs and thieves. We should not steal the Glory that belongs to the FATHER and give it to Man. This Jesus never did, saying “I have Glorified (YOU) upon the Earth”> IMO peace and love to you and yours brother……………………gene
Gene,
You contrqadict the scriptures.Quote …Who BEING the radiance of His glory (Heb. 1:3) Jesus said that He came “out of God'
Quote I proceeded forth and came out of God (John 8:42) Please explain how Christ can be “out of” God without being a part of God. That's like saying that sun beams may come out of the sun without being a part of the sun.
thinker
Heb 1:3 also says Jesus is the image of God, not God. And further, it says he is the image of his person, singular, not persons plural, so Jesus cannot BE tha tof which he is an image. If he is the express image, as the KJV suggests, than he would have to be a multiple image to be the express image of a multiple person God.
Hi PDBut the scriptures do not say is just an “image of God”.
He is “the image of the invisible God“, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:15
In other words he is God making himself visible!
The problem with ant-trinitarians is they limit God by not believing that he can change his form.
WJ
What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to.It doesn't matter what he is the image of, he is still the image and not the substance.
And you certainly are dodging the point, that “Person” of God is singular, of which Jesus is the image.
Paladin said:
Quote What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to. It doesn't matter what he is the image of, he is still the image and not the substance.
And you certainly are dodging the point, that “Person” of God is singular, of which Jesus is the image.
I marvel that Paladin can impugn another man's scholarship seeing that he denies that the Greek language has a past tense verb. I have a question for Paladin: Are sun beams the same substance as the sun from which they come?
I duplicate my earlier post below,
It first says that Jesus is the “radiance” of God's glory. The English “radiance” is a compound word in the Greek from “apo” which means “from” or “out of” and “augazo” which means “beam.” Jesus is called the beam which comes out of God. He is the very emanation of God.
Just as sunbeams come out of the sun and emanate from the sun so Jesus came out of God and emanates from Him. Just as the sunbeams which emanate out of the the sun are a part of the sun so Jesus is a part of God. Jesus said, “I proceeded forth and came OUT OF God” (John 8:42).
I ask Paladin again: As the beam that emanates out of God is Jesus the same substance as God? And shouldn't the statement that He is the “express image” be understood in connection with His being the beam which emanates from God?
thinker
Hi TT,
So to you the light and heat of the Sun are the Sun?
How far will you wander into folly in defence of man's doctrines?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,06:12) Hi TT,
So to you the light and heat of the Sun are the Sun?
How far will you wander into folly in defence of man's doctrines?
Nick,
Why do you take my illustration literally? It is not me that looks foolish when you do that.thinker
Hi TT,
So tell us again how what comes from the Sun IS the Sun.You say Jesus is like unto God as the sunlight is to the Sun.
It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,08:50) Hi TT,
So tell us again how what comes from the Sun IS the Sun.You say Jesus is like unto God as the sunlight is to the Sun.
It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat.
Nick,
Thank you for acknowledging that I was using analogy. Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the radiance of God. The Greek is two words which are “apo” which means “from” or “out of” and “augazo” which means “ray” or “beam.” The sunbeam that comes from or out of the sun is the same substance as the sun. So Jesus is from God and is the same substance as God.Jesus is the radiance of God. It's that simple.
You said:
Quote It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat. The beams are no less for they are the Sun emanating and giving us the benefit. Jesus as God's radiance is how we get the benefit of God's person.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,08:50) Hi TT,
So tell us again how what comes from the Sun IS the Sun.You say Jesus is like unto God as the sunlight is to the Sun.
It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat.
Nick,
Thank you for acknowledging that I was using analogy. Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the radiance of God. The Greek is two words which are “apo” which means “from” or “out of” and “augazo” which means “ray” or “beam.” The sunbeam that comes from or out of the sun is the same substance as the sun. So Jesus is from God and is the same substance as God.Jesus is the radiance of God. It's that simple.
You said:
Quote It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat. The beams are no less for they are the Sun emanating and giving us the benefit. Jesus as God's radiance is how we get the benefit of God's person.
thinker
Are you kidding try touching the sun you wouldn't even get close before completely disintegrating, the sun is 93,000,000 miles from earth and sunlight travels all that way and it gives off light and heat but just enough.It's like Jesus and God, Jesus will give you warth and light but God is so so much more than that. But, Most don't know.
You remind me of those who put trust in Idols although they are not capable of Powers
Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,13:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,05:07) Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,12:34) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,03:07) Quote (Gene @ July 12 2009,01:38) Thinker……….Jesus is not the radiance of GOD's Glory, GOD's Glory radiates (through) Him. big difference. One looks at Jesus the other looks at the FATHER who is doing the WORK through Jesus. “The Father in me does the (WORK)> Trinitarians and Preexistences, turn this around and Make Jesus Himself the WORK stealing Glory from the FATHER. As Jesus stated all that came before me were lairs and thieves. We should not steal the Glory that belongs to the FATHER and give it to Man. This Jesus never did, saying “I have Glorified (YOU) upon the Earth”> IMO peace and love to you and yours brother……………………gene
Gene,
You contrqadict the scriptures.Quote …Who BEING the radiance of His glory (Heb. 1:3) Jesus said that He came “out of God'
Quote I proceeded forth and came out of God (John 8:42) Please explain how Christ can be “out of” God without being a part of God. That's like saying that sun beams may come out of the sun without being a part of the sun.
thinker
Heb 1:3 also says Jesus is the image of God, not God. And further, it says he is the image of his person, singular, not persons plural, so Jesus cannot BE tha tof which he is an image. If he is the express image, as the KJV suggests, than he would have to be a multiple image to be the express image of a multiple person God.
Hi PDBut the scriptures do not say is just an “image of God”.
He is “the image of the invisible God“, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:15
In other words he is God making himself visible!
The problem with ant-trinitarians is they limit God by not believing that he can change his form.
WJ
What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to.It doesn't matter what he is the image of, he is still the image and not the substance.
And you certainly are dodging the point, that “Person” of God is singular, of which Jesus is the image.
Hi PDNo the sad commentary is with you. You misquote the scripture.
Jesus is “The image of the invisible God” not an image of God!
This is what the Apostle is trying to convey and it lines up seith Jesus own words.
And you seem to be saying that if you see God's image you are not seeing him.
Hello!
Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,13:53) What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to. More patronizing and more lies! Seriously PD it is against this board to bear false witness.
You have never heard me make “proud claims to scholarship”! I am a fair man and if you continue this I will report it to the moderators!
It seems you are being a hypocrite, for you have accused me of attacking you the messenger and this is exactly what you are doing!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,06:06) Paladin said: Quote What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to. It doesn't matter what he is the image of, he is still the image and not the substance.
And you certainly are dodging the point, that “Person” of God is singular, of which Jesus is the image.
(thinker)Quote I marvel that Paladin can impugn another man's scholarship seeing that he denies that the Greek language has a past tense verb. Every time you open your mouth on this subject you demonstrate again, your ignorance of the Greek. The Greek does not have a past tens. You think that because it is translated into the English past tense, it is the same thing. It is NOT. There is no “one-to-one” relationship translated accross the two languages, as relates to past tense..
(thinker)
Quote I have a question for Paladin: Are sun beams the same substance as the sun from which they come? (P) Absolutely NOT. One is a gaseous fire thousands of degrees hot; the other is a reflection of light driven from the gaseous fire by solar wind and heat energy.
(thinker)
Quote It first says that Jesus is the “radiance” of God's glory. The English “radiance” is a compound word in the Greek from “apo” which means “from” or “out of” and “augazo” which means “beam.” Jesus is called the beam which comes out of God. He is the very emanation of God.
Just as sunbeams come out of the sun and emanate from the sun so Jesus came out of God and emanates from Him. Just as the sunbeams which emanate out of the the sun are a part of the sun so Jesus is a part of God. Jesus said, “I proceeded forth and came OUT OF God” (John 8:42).I ask Paladin again: As the beam that emanates out of God is Jesus the same substance as God? And shouldn't the statement that He is the “express image” be understood in connection with His being the beam which emanates from God?
(P) Again, No! The beam of light energy is not the same as the heat and wind energy that drives that light beam across millions of miles of space.
541 apaugasma {ap-ow'-gas-mah}
Meaning: 1) REFLECTED brightness 1a) of Christ in that he perfectly REFLECTS the majesty of God. An image is REFLECTED, or a REFLECTION of the original.Quote (bodhitharta @ July 12 2009,09:51) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,08:50) Hi TT,
So tell us again how what comes from the Sun IS the Sun.You say Jesus is like unto God as the sunlight is to the Sun.
It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat.
Nick,
Thank you for acknowledging that I was using analogy. Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the radiance of God. The Greek is two words which are “apo” which means “from” or “out of” and “augazo” which means “ray” or “beam.” The sunbeam that comes from or out of the sun is the same substance as the sun. So Jesus is from God and is the same substance as God.Jesus is the radiance of God. It's that simple.
You said:
Quote It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat. The beams are no less for they are the Sun emanating and giving us the benefit. Jesus as God's radiance is how we get the benefit of God's person.
thinker
Are you kidding try touching the sun you wouldn't even get close before completely disintegrating, the sun is 93,000,000 miles from earth and sunlight travels all that way and it gives off light and heat but just enough.It's like Jesus and God, Jesus will give you warth and light but God is so so much more than that. But, Most don't know.
You remind me of those who put trust in Idols although they are not capable of Powers
I agree that God is much more than that. But Jesus is also much more than that. Paul was blinded when Jesus revealed Himself on the road to Damascus. And it is the brightness of His coming that destroys men (2 Thess. 1).So you were saying….
thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,17:51) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,08:50) Hi TT,
So tell us again how what comes from the Sun IS the Sun.You say Jesus is like unto God as the sunlight is to the Sun.
It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat.
Nick,
Thank you for acknowledging that I was using analogy. Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the radiance of God. The Greek is two words which are “apo” which means “from” or “out of” and “augazo” which means “ray” or “beam.” The sunbeam that comes from or out of the sun is the same substance as the sun. So Jesus is from God and is the same substance as God.Jesus is the radiance of God. It's that simple.
You said:
Quote It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat. The beams are no less for they are the Sun emanating and giving us the benefit. Jesus as God's radiance is how we get the benefit of God's person.
thinker
Are you kidding try touching the sun you wouldn't even get close before completely disintegrating, the sun is 93,000,000 miles from earth and sunlight travels all that way and it gives off light and heat but just enough.It's like Jesus and God, Jesus will give you warth and light but God is so so much more than that. But, Most don't know.
You remind me of those who put trust in Idols although they are not capable of Powers
Hi BDQuote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,17:51) Are you kidding try touching the sun you wouldn't even get close before completely disintegrating, the sun is 93,000,000 miles from earth and sunlight travels all that way and it gives off light and heat but just enough. Good point, that is why the Word that was with God and was God came in the likeness of sinful flesh, so that we could see him and his glory.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,08:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,06:12) Hi TT,
So to you the light and heat of the Sun are the Sun?
How far will you wander into folly in defence of man's doctrines?
Nick,
Why do you take my illustration literally? It is not me that looks foolish when you do that.thinker
More to the point, if you do not take it literally, why do you think I should believe Jesus is a ray from God? Or are you saying now, it is not a literal ray?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,09:54) Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,13:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,05:07) Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,12:34) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,03:07) Quote (Gene @ July 12 2009,01:38) Thinker……….Jesus is not the radiance of GOD's Glory, GOD's Glory radiates (through) Him. big difference. One looks at Jesus the other looks at the FATHER who is doing the WORK through Jesus. “The Father in me does the (WORK)> Trinitarians and Preexistences, turn this around and Make Jesus Himself the WORK stealing Glory from the FATHER. As Jesus stated all that came before me were lairs and thieves. We should not steal the Glory that belongs to the FATHER and give it to Man. This Jesus never did, saying “I have Glorified (YOU) upon the Earth”> IMO peace and love to you and yours brother……………………gene
Gene,
You contrqadict the scriptures.Quote …Who BEING the radiance of His glory (Heb. 1:3) Jesus said that He came “out of God'
Quote I proceeded forth and came out of God (John 8:42) Please explain how Christ can be “out of” God without being a part of God. That's like saying that sun beams may come out of the sun without being a part of the sun.
thinker
Heb 1:3 also says Jesus is the image of God, not God. And further, it says he is the image of his person, singular, not persons plural, so Jesus cannot BE tha tof which he is an image. If he is the express image, as the KJV suggests, than he would have to be a multiple image to be the express image of a multiple person God.
Hi PDBut the scriptures do not say is just an “image of God”.
He is “the image of the invisible God“, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:15
In other words he is God making himself visible!
The problem with ant-trinitarians is they limit God by not believing that he can change his form.
WJ
What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to.It doesn't matter what he is the image of, he is still the image and not the substance.
And you certainly are dodging the point, that “Person” of God is singular, of which Jesus is the image.
Hi PDNo the sad commentary is with you. You misquote the scripture.
Jesus is “The image of the invisible God” not an image of God!
This is what the Apostle is trying to convey and it lines up seith Jesus own words.
And you seem to be saying that if you see God's image you are not seeing him.
Hello!
Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,13:53) What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to. More patronizing and more lies! Seriously PD it is against this board to bear false witness.
You have never heard me make “proud claims to scholarship”! I am a fair man and if you continue this I will report it to the moderators!
It seems you are being a hypocrite, for you have accused me of attacking you the messenger and this is exactly what you are doing!
WJ
So now you tell me that the “invisible God” is not God? Or are you saying that the “invisible God” is not “the same as God?”You are becoming more confusing all the time as to just what it is you believe.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,10:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,17:51) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,08:50) Hi TT,
So tell us again how what comes from the Sun IS the Sun.You say Jesus is like unto God as the sunlight is to the Sun.
It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat.
Nick,
Thank you for acknowledging that I was using analogy. Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the radiance of God. The Greek is two words which are “apo” which means “from” or “out of” and “augazo” which means “ray” or “beam.” The sunbeam that comes from or out of the sun is the same substance as the sun. So Jesus is from God and is the same substance as God.Jesus is the radiance of God. It's that simple.
You said:
Quote It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat. The beams are no less for they are the Sun emanating and giving us the benefit. Jesus as God's radiance is how we get the benefit of God's person.
thinker
Are you kidding try touching the sun you wouldn't even get close before completely disintegrating, the sun is 93,000,000 miles from earth and sunlight travels all that way and it gives off light and heat but just enough.It's like Jesus and God, Jesus will give you warth and light but God is so so much more than that. But, Most don't know.
You remind me of those who put trust in Idols although they are not capable of Powers
Hi BDQuote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,17:51) Are you kidding try touching the sun you wouldn't even get close before completely disintegrating, the sun is 93,000,000 miles from earth and sunlight travels all that way and it gives off light and heat but just enough. Good point, that is why the Word that was with God and was God came in the likeness of sinful flesh, so that we could see him and his glory.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7
WJ
Ephesians 1:16-18 (New King James Version)
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,Quote (Paladin @ July 12 2009,10:05) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,08:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,06:12) Hi TT,
So to you the light and heat of the Sun are the Sun?
How far will you wander into folly in defence of man's doctrines?
Nick,
Why do you take my illustration literally? It is not me that looks foolish when you do that.thinker
More to the point, if you do not take it literally, why do you think I should believe Jesus is a ray from God? Or are you saying now, it is not a literal ray?
Evasive! Jesus is the radiance of God AS sunbeams are the radiance of the sun. You're evasive! How about making a serious attempt at explaining Hebrews 1:3? Btw, thanks for keeping your posts brief lately.thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote Ephesians 1:16-18 (New King James Version)
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,Your point being….
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,10:29) Hi TT,
Indeed Jesus radiated every aspect of God.
God was in him.
Nick,
Hebrews is talking about Christ as God's radiance BEFORE He became flesh. Read it.thinker
Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,18:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,09:54) Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,13:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,05:07) Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,12:34) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,03:07) Quote (Gene @ July 12 2009,01:38) Thinker……….Jesus is not the radiance of GOD's Glory, GOD's Glory radiates (through) Him. big difference. One looks at Jesus the other looks at the FATHER who is doing the WORK through Jesus. “The Father in me does the (WORK)> Trinitarians and Preexistences, turn this around and Make Jesus Himself the WORK stealing Glory from the FATHER. As Jesus stated all that came before me were lairs and thieves. We should not steal the Glory that belongs to the FATHER and give it to Man. This Jesus never did, saying “I have Glorified (YOU) upon the Earth”> IMO peace and love to you and yours brother……………………gene
Gene,
You contrqadict the scriptures.Quote …Who BEING the radiance of His glory (Heb. 1:3) Jesus said that He came “out of God'
Quote I proceeded forth and came out of God (John 8:42) Please explain how Christ can be “out of” God without being a part of God. That's like saying that sun beams may come out of the sun without being a part of the sun.
thinker
Heb 1:3 also says Jesus is the image of God, not God. And further, it says he is the image of his person, singular, not persons plural, so Jesus cannot BE tha tof which he is an image. If he is the express image, as the KJV suggests, than he would have to be a multiple image to be the express image of a multiple person God.
Hi PDBut the scriptures do not say is just an “image of God”.
He is “the image of the invisible God“, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:15
In other words he is God making himself visible!
The problem with ant-trinitarians is they limit God by not believing that he can change his form.
WJ
What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to.It doesn't matter what he is the image of, he is still the image and not the substance.
And you certainly are dodging the point, that “Person” of God is singular, of which Jesus is the image.
Hi PDNo the sad commentary is with you. You misquote the scripture.
Jesus is “The image of the invisible God” not an image of God!
This is what the Apostle is trying to convey and it lines up seith Jesus own words.
And you seem to be saying that if you see God's image you are not seeing him.
Hello!
Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,13:53) What a sad commentary on scholarship which you lay such proud claim to. More patronizing and more lies! Seriously PD it is against this board to bear false witness.
You have never heard me make “proud claims to scholarship”! I am a fair man and if you continue this I will report it to the moderators!
It seems you are being a hypocrite, for you have accused me of attacking you the messenger and this is exactly what you are doing!
WJ
So now you tell me that the “invisible God” is not God? Or are you saying that the “invisible God” is not “the same as God?”You are becoming more confusing all the time as to just what it is you believe.
Hi PDQuote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,18:07) So now you tell me that the “invisible God” is not God?
No, I am saying that he is, and when he makes himself visible the image I see is still God!Quote (Paladin @ July 11 2009,18:07) Or are you saying that the “invisible God” is not “the same as God?”
No I am saying that God is still God when he is invisible or when he can be seen.Jesus is “the image of the invisible God”? God has made himself known and visible.
But again, you seem to be saying if you see God's image you are not seeing him!
WJ
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,18:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,10:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,17:51) Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,08:50) Hi TT,
So tell us again how what comes from the Sun IS the Sun.You say Jesus is like unto God as the sunlight is to the Sun.
It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat.
Nick,
Thank you for acknowledging that I was using analogy. Hebrews 1 says that Christ is the radiance of God. The Greek is two words which are “apo” which means “from” or “out of” and “augazo” which means “ray” or “beam.” The sunbeam that comes from or out of the sun is the same substance as the sun. So Jesus is from God and is the same substance as God.Jesus is the radiance of God. It's that simple.
You said:
Quote It seems a poor analogy as the sun is more than light and heat. The beams are no less for they are the Sun emanating and giving us the benefit. Jesus as God's radiance is how we get the benefit of God's person.
thinker
Are you kidding try touching the sun you wouldn't even get close before completely disintegrating, the sun is 93,000,000 miles from earth and sunlight travels all that way and it gives off light and heat but just enough.It's like Jesus and God, Jesus will give you warth and light but God is so so much more than that. But, Most don't know.
You remind me of those who put trust in Idols although they are not capable of Powers
Hi BDQuote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,17:51) Are you kidding try touching the sun you wouldn't even get close before completely disintegrating, the sun is 93,000,000 miles from earth and sunlight travels all that way and it gives off light and heat but just enough. Good point, that is why the Word that was with God and was God came in the likeness of sinful flesh, so that we could see him and his glory.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7
WJ
Ephesians 1:16-18 (New King James Version)
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Hi BDSome how you think this contradicts the Trinitarian view?
Do you think the scriptures contradict themselves?
WJ
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