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Hi TT,
So turn your educated mind to the evidence for God being a trinity.
There is none in scripture.
Think about itQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2009,06:43) Hi TT,
So turn your educated mind to the evidence for God being a trinity.
There is none in scripture.
Think about it
What Bible are you reading Nick? Father, Son and Holy Spirit are a trinity.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 01 2009,17:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2009,06:43) Hi TT,
So turn your educated mind to the evidence for God being a trinity.
There is none in scripture.
Think about it
What Bible are you reading Nick? Father, Son and Holy Spirit are a trinity.thinker
JackHow true, they believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit yet somehow do not believe that they are “One”.
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 01 2009,12:43) Hi WJ,
So the more educated men become somehow the more deceived as well.
Give me the uneducated fishermen from Israel any old day.
God's power shows up best in weak vessels.
NHDo you have something against education? Paul was educated by the best of his day and guess what, God inspired him to write two thirds of the NT!
Being ignorant of the truth is no excuse!
WJ
Hi WJ,
The Son has never become the same as his Father but they are united in the Spirit of God.
Why do you want to make Jesus an idol?[1Jn5]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 01 2009,18:06) Hi WJ,
The Son has never become the same as his Father but they are united in the Spirit of God.
Why do you want to make Jesus an idol?[1Jn5]
NHAnyone that makes anything or anyone other than God first in their lives with “Slavelike” devotion worships an Idol.
Is Jesus your prize and your Lord and Master?
Like Paul, are you his “Bondslave”?
Do you love him and serve him with “slavelike” passion?
If not, then he is not your Lord and Master!
If you do, then you have an Idol, for you do not believe Jesus is God!
You can't have two masters!
WJ
Hi Keith,
Does Jesus teach us that He is the ultimate prize or the Father and the Son are the ultimate prize?Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2009,10:43) Hi Keith,
Does Jesus teach us that He is the ultimate prize or the Father and the Son are the ultimate prize?Kathi
Paul said, “For me to live IS CHRIST.” Paul must be an idolater.thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2009,10:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 01 2009,12:43) Hi WJ,
So the more educated men become somehow the more deceived as well.
Give me the uneducated fishermen from Israel any old day.
God's power shows up best in weak vessels.
NHDo you have something against education? Paul was educated by the best of his day and guess what, God inspired him to write two thirds of the NT!
Being ignorant of the truth is no excuse!
WJ
Nick relies heavily on Bildad the Shuhite.thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2009,18:43) Hi Keith,
Does Jesus teach us that He is the ultimate prize or the Father and the Son are the ultimate prize?Kathi
KathiI thought you would have known the answer to this?
Howbeit what things were gain to me, these have “I COUNTED LOSS FOR CHRIST”. Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the Excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: “FOR WHOM I SUFFERED THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS”, and do count them but refuse, “THAT I MAY GAIN (KJV WIN) CHRIST“, Phil 3:7, 8
Jesus is our Bridegroom; we are the bride being prepared for him. Our ultimate goal is to know him intimately like the Bride knows her husband and the husband knows his bride.
What are you looking for? Golden streets? A Mansion in the sky? Harps and wings? Those are the things the carnal man seeks after. But for those who look for their beloved, he alone is their desire!
No, it is the final union of the Bride with her Bridgroom, Jesus, when we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. That was the Apostles goal and that is every true believers goal.
Jesus demanded this kind of devotion of his followers…
““Whosoever will come after me“, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; “BUT WHOSOEVER SHALL LOSE HIS LIFE FOR **MY SAKE**” and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mark 8:34, 35
No man under Hebrew law could demand the life of a man for himself. That would be Idolatry.
This kind of devotion belongs to God alone and it is this kind of devotion that we give to our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ!
Blessing WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2009,19:41) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2009,18:43) Hi Keith,
Does Jesus teach us that He is the ultimate prize or the Father and the Son are the ultimate prize?Kathi
KathiI thought you would have known the answer to this?
Howbeit what things were gain to me, these have “I COUNTED LOSS FOR CHRIST”. Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the Excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: “FOR WHOM I SUFFERED THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS”, and do count them but refuse, “THAT I MAY GAIN (KJV WIN) CHRIST“, Phil 3:7, 8
Jesus is our Bridegroom; we are the bride being prepared for him. Our ultimate goal is to know him intimately like the Bride knows her husband and the husband knows his bride.
What are you looking for? Golden streets? A Mansion in the sky? Harps and wings? Those are the things the carnal man seeks after. But for those who look for their beloved, he alone is their desire!
No, it is the final union of the Bride with her Bridgroom, Jesus, when we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. That was the Apostles goal and that is every true believers goal.
Jesus demanded this kind of devotion of his followers…
““Whosoever will come after me“, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; “BUT WHOSOEVER SHALL LOSE HIS LIFE FOR **MY SAKE**” and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mark 8:34, 35
No man under Hebrew law could demand the life of a man for himself. That would be Idolatry.
This kind of devotion belongs to God alone and it is this kind of devotion that we give to our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ!
Blessing WJ
Keith,
Yes, Jesus is the prize but only part of the prize. Without Jesus we do not have a way to our ultimate destiny. We are told by Jesus that He is the way, the truth and the life but the way to who? He is not the destination, He is the way to the destination. Remember, the rest of the verse is…”no man comes to the Father but through Me.”Jesus came to return us to the Father.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
NASUKathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2009,21:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2009,19:41) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2009,18:43) Hi Keith,
Does Jesus teach us that He is the ultimate prize or the Father and the Son are the ultimate prize?Kathi
KathiI thought you would have known the answer to this?
Howbeit what things were gain to me, these have “I COUNTED LOSS FOR CHRIST”. Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the Excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: “FOR WHOM I SUFFERED THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS”, and do count them but refuse, “THAT I MAY GAIN (KJV WIN) CHRIST“, Phil 3:7, 8
Jesus is our Bridegroom; we are the bride being prepared for him. Our ultimate goal is to know him intimately like the Bride knows her husband and the husband knows his bride.
What are you looking for? Golden streets? A Mansion in the sky? Harps and wings? Those are the things the carnal man seeks after. But for those who look for their beloved, he alone is their desire!
No, it is the final union of the Bride with her Bridgroom, Jesus, when we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. That was the Apostles goal and that is every true believers goal.
Jesus demanded this kind of devotion of his followers…
““Whosoever will come after me“, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; “BUT WHOSOEVER SHALL LOSE HIS LIFE FOR **MY SAKE**” and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mark 8:34, 35
No man under Hebrew law could demand the life of a man for himself. That would be Idolatry.
This kind of devotion belongs to God alone and it is this kind of devotion that we give to our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ!
Blessing WJ
Keith,
Yes, Jesus is the prize but only part of the prize. Without Jesus we do not have a way to our ultimate destiny. We are told by Jesus that He is the way, the truth and the life but the way to who? He is not the destination, He is the way to the destination. Remember, the rest of the verse is…”no man comes to the Father but through Me.”Jesus came to return us to the Father.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
NASUKathi
KathiNo Jesus is the whole prize for in him dwells all the fulness of Deity! Col 1:19, Col 2:9
Don't forget the entire context of John 14:6.
Jesus said…
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. “Trust in God; trust also in me“. John 14:1
Imagine that, Jesus equates trusting him to being equal to Trusting God!!! I wonder Why?
Then Jesus says…
In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. “I am going there to prepare a place for you “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and “TAKE YOU TO BE WITH ME THAT YOU ALSO MAY BE WHERE I AM. John 14:2, 3
So you see Kathi, our destination is to be with Jesus where he is, (with the Father of course) this is why he is coming for his Bride without spot or wrinkle, those who have made themselves ready for their Bridegroom and have oil in their lamps!
Do you think you can have the Father without Jesus? Since the days of his flesh the Father has given everything to him! You cannot know the Father unless Jesus reveals him! And no man can know who Jesus is unless the Father reveals him! HMMM! I wonder why?
If you have Jesus, you have the Father, or God! They are “One” Kathi!
You can only serve one Master with the devotion that God requires and that is the devotion that we are to give to Jesus!
He is the “Way, the Truth, and the Life” meaning he is our source of life for he is the life!
“**Looking unto Jesus** THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH“; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2
Why do we find so many statements like this about looking or coming to Jesus and not the Father?
Kathi, the Apostles heart was toward Jesus for without him they had nothing!
Do a word search of the terms “Father”, “Lord” “God” and “Jesus” and “Christ” and add them up and you will be amazed that the NT scriptures are mainly about Jesus.
For instance, several times Jesus said “Come unto me”?
Jesus said…
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and “THEY ARE THEY WHICH TESTIFY OF ME” And “YE WILL NOT COME TO ME“, that ye might have life. . John 5:39, 40
“Come to Jesus for life”!
Imagine that, the Bible is a biography of God and Jesus takes claim to it! Either this is Blasphemy or Heresy and Jesus is a lunatic or Jesus is the God of the Old and New Testament!
Jesus again claims he is the source of life and crys out to all men to “come to him”.
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, “If any man thirst, LET HIM COME UNTO ME, AND DRINK. John 7:37
Since all things were made by him and for him and all things are his, then he is the entire prize, for all the fulness of deity resides in him.
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 2:13
Who are you looking for and preparing for Kathi? The Father or the Bridegroom?
Who do we see every knee and every tongue confessing as Lord to the Glory of God the Father? Who do we see casting their crowns before and falling on their faces to? Who do we see them crying out “thou only art worthy to recieve blessing and honour and Glory and power” to?
His name is Jesus, the name above ALL NAMES both in heaven and in earth and under the earth!
Again, such devotion belongs to God alone!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote So you see Kathi, our destination is to be with Jesus where he is, (with the Father of course) this is why he is coming for his Bride without spot or wrinkle, those who have made themselves ready for their Bridegroom and have oil in their lamps! He came and He is here both now and forever! His Bride has been presented to Himself without spot and we are her children.
“In a very little while He that will come will and will not delay”
Was the book of Hebrews “tampered with” as bodhitharta claims?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,23:41) Constitutionalist said: Quote Now when Jesus was born [gennaō] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1 Gennaō: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
TO ALL:
Constitutionalist in his statement above reveals his lack of knowledge of the Greek. He thinks that the word “gennao” always has reference to simple origin and must therefore rule out the possibility of preexistence of any kind. Thus he concludes that Christ could not have preexisted His human birth.
By Con's logic all those who were “gennao” of God could not have preexisted. So when Con became born of God he began to exist.
Paul said that Isaac was “gennao” according to the Spirit. I guess this must mean that Isaac did not preexist his spiritual origin. We must conclude this because Con redacts “gennao” to simple origin in meaning. The fact is however, those who are “gennao” according to the Spirit do not begin at that time to exist. They undergo a change in their mode of existence. When Jesus was “gennao” according to the seed of David He simply underwent a change in His mode of existence.
Please note that Con has been asked to produce his Greek credentials and he remains evasive about it. It has been sufficiently shown that Con is actually a novice who does not know what he is talking about. He is not aware of the difference between Greek vocabulary and Greek exegesis.
King David called the Messiah “my Lord” which necessarily infers that David KNEW Him. This in turn infers that Jesus was preexistent. It is not too late for Con to enroll in some courses in Logic and in Greek.
thinker
King David is and was a prophet of God.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2009,03:40) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,19:33) Also if TT was in fact a Master in Greek, he would not be Trinitarian. End of that discussion as well.
ConJust as I said, you have no answer to him!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,19:33) Also if TT was in fact a Master in Greek, he would not be Trinitarian. End of that discussion as well. ROTFL, the world reknown Greek Grammarian AT Robertson is a Trinitarian.
As well as many other thousands of Greek and Hebrew scholars who are Trinitarians because they understand the Greek and Hebrew.
It seems that the Trinitarians around here are about the only ones that speak of the Greek and the original text, while the Arians just spat off their twisted interpretations of the translations!
End of that discussion!
WJ
You need to read1) ATRobertson's Grammar, 767-68:
So in Jo.1:1,Theos een 'o logos, the subject is perfectly clear. CF. 'o logos sarx egeneto (Jo 1:14). It is true also that “'o theos eev 'o logos; (convertible terms) would have been Sabellianism.“God” and “love” are not convertible terms any more than “God” and “logos” or “Logos” and “flesh.”
The absence of the article here is on purpose and essential to the true idea.”
ATRobertson failed to understand the consequences of his own determination.
In John 1:1, “theos” and “logos” are NOT convertible terms. Do you know what that means? It means they are not interchangeable. It means that what you can say for one, you cannot say for the other. But trinitariansism DEPENDS upon the terms being convertible.
“and the logos was with God and the logos was God.”
“And the logos became flesh.”
When the logos became flesh, GOD DID NOT. The terms theos and logos are NOT convertible. DO YOU SEE IT NOW?
And ATR is not the only trinitarians to state that the terms are not convertible, yet none of them understands the consequence of their position.
2) Daniel B. Wallace
In his intermediate Greek grammar, says, To state this another way, look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:
a) kai o logos een o theos “and the Word was the God” (i.e., the Father; Sabellianism)
b) kai o logos een theos “and the Word was a god” (Arianism)
c) kai theos een o logos “and the Word was God” (Orthodoxy).3) PC Study Bible Data
John 1:1
And the Word was God kai Theos een ho logos. By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho Theos een ho logos.That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article.
The subject is made plain by the article ho logos and the predicate without it Theos just as in John 4:24 pneuma ho Theos can only mean “God is spirit,” [NOT] “spirit is God.” So in 1 John 4:16 ho Theos agapee estin can only mean “God is love,” [NOT] “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say.
For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in John 1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto?, “the Word became flesh,” [NOT] “the flesh became Word.”
(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)4) John 1:1—*Moreover, if he had said “God was the Word,” he would have contradicted his previous statement by which he had distinguished (hypostatically)*God from the word, and logos (Loges) would, further, have signified only an attribute of God.
(from Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
John 1:1 CANNOT be used to prove Jesus was God prehistorically, and became man.
thethinker,Dec. wrote:[/quote]
thethinker said:Quote Paladin,
It has already been shown that you are a novice in the Greek in that you have repeatedly denied that the Greek has a past tense verb. So I am surprised that you would come back for another beating.You are entitled to your dreams just as I am entitled to mine. However, mine try to stay within the realm of reality.
No less an authority (I hate myself for turning to scholarship, and authorities, but I am forced) A.T.Robertson; M.A., D.D., L.L.D. – A Grammar Of The Greek New Testament – In the light of Historical Research; Page 343 beginning – “The term Tense. It is from the French word temps, 'time,' and is a misnomer and a hindrance to the understanding of this aspect of the verb-form. Time does come finally to enter relatively into the indicative and in a limited way affects the Optative, infinitive, and participle.
But it is not the original nor the general idea of what we call tense. Indeed IT CANNOT be shown of any verb-form that it had originally ANY REFERENCE TO TIME. We must therefore DISMISS TIME FROM OUR MINDS our minds in the study of the forms of the tenses as well as in the matter of syntax.” [P.343-344]
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2009,22:23) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,23:41) Constitutionalist said: Quote Now when Jesus was born [gennaō] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1 Gennaō: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
TO ALL:
Constitutionalist in his statement above reveals his lack of knowledge of the Greek. He thinks that the word “gennao” always has reference to simple origin and must therefore rule out the possibility of preexistence of any kind. Thus he concludes that Christ could not have preexisted His human birth.
By Con's logic all those who were “gennao” of God could not have preexisted. So when Con became born of God he began to exist.
Paul said that Isaac was “gennao” according to the Spirit. I guess this must mean that Isaac did not preexist his spiritual origin. We must conclude this because Con redacts “gennao” to simple origin in meaning. The fact is however, those who are “gennao” according to the Spirit do not begin at that time to exist. They undergo a change in their mode of existence. When Jesus was “gennao” according to the seed of David He simply underwent a change in His mode of existence.
Please note that Con has been asked to produce his Greek credentials and he remains evasive about it. It has been sufficiently shown that Con is actually a novice who does not know what he is talking about. He is not aware of the difference between Greek vocabulary and Greek exegesis.
King David called the Messiah “my Lord” which necessarily infers that David KNEW Him. This in turn infers that Jesus was preexistent. It is not too late for Con to enroll in some courses in Logic and in Greek.
thinker
King David is and was a prophet of God.
King David was a prophet of God. In Psalm 40 he was Christ's mouthpiece. Christ spoke through David which necessarily infers that He was preexistent.thinker
Paladin said:
Quote In John 1:1, “theos” and “logos” are NOT convertible terms. Do you know what that means? It means they are not interchangeable. It means that what you can say for one, you cannot say for the other. But trinitariansism DEPENDS upon the terms being convertible….When the logos became flesh, GOD DID NOT. John 1:1 CANNOT be used to prove Jesus was God prehistorically, and became man.
Do verses 2-3 figure at all in this equation? It says that “all things came into being through Him, and without Him not one thing has come into being that has come into being.”John 1:1 alone cannot “prove” that Jesus us God just as you say. But alone it would be an unintelligible statement altogether wouldn't it? What does John 1:1 “prove” Paladin? If it doesn't prove that Jesus is God then what does it prove about Jesus? It cannot prove that He is “a god” for verse 3 explicitly says that “without Him not one thing came into being that has come into being.”
Quote John 1:1 CANNOT be used to prove Jesus was God prehistorically, and became man.
Yet with verse 3 it proves that Jesus was Creator prehistorically and became a man right?Your treatment of the Greek and of Robertson is unimpressive because you do not comment on all of it. You simply tell us what 1:1 does not prove without offering an alternative.
Just a smokescreen my friend.
thinker
Quote (Paladin @ Dec. 03 2009,01:53) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 02 2009,03:02)
thethinker said:Quote Paladin,
It has already been shown that you are a novice in the Greek in that you have repeatedly denied that the Greek has a past tense verb. So I am surprised that you would come back for another beating.You are entitled to your dreams just as I am entitled to mine. However, mine try to stay within the realm of reality.
No less an authority (I hate myself for turning to scholarship, and authorities, but I am forced) A.T.Robertson; M.A., D.D., L.L.D. – A Grammar Of The Greek New Testament – In the light of Historical Research; Page 343 beginning – “The term Tense. It is from the French word temps, 'time,' and is a misnomer and a hindrance to the understanding of this aspect of the verb-form. Time does come finally to enter relatively into the indicative and in a limited way affects the Optative, infinitive, and participle.
But it is not the original nor the general idea of what we call tense. Indeed IT CANNOT be shown of any verb-form that it had originally ANY REFERENCE TO TIME. We must therefore DISMISS TIME FROM OUR MINDS our minds in the study of the forms of the tenses as well as in the matter of syntax.” [P.343-344]
Paladin,
I perceive that you are taking Robertson out of context because one time before you did this and WJ and I both caught it. So check it again. The aorist tense in the indicative mood indicates action in past time. This is textbook Greek grammar.Certainly you would not ask us to believe that Robertson goes against the textbooks.
thinker
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