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2Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Could this be the belief in the once saved, always saved doctrine? Could this be the strong delusion spoken of in 2Thess. 2:11?
It may not be the only solitary aspect of the delusion, however, you make a good point that the “once saved always saved doctrine” could definately be part of the “lie” that they believe. I think the delusion sent most likely extends to the full spectrum of false doctrines.
However, it is very interesting that the context of the verse implies that they may feel they have a license to continue to sin since they did not love the truth and delighted in wickedness.
The license to sin is inherently built into the “once saved always saved” doctrine no matter how much it's advocates deny it.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.I believe that this is the delusion that is spoken of in Thess. This doctrine originated in the catholic religion with the confessional. And it eventually became a doctrine adopted by much of the donominations. So many think it is alright to sin willfully. That is a lie of Satan. And these lies will claim many, many souls to hell.
Hi H,
So the cure for the problem is preaching the gospel of Jesus so men can go from the kingdom of darkness and lies, into the kingdom of light of the Son of God, and his God, and leave behind all the follies of Satan.1 Corinthians 1:21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn't know God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2 Corinthians 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 29 2006,10:32) It may not be the only solitary aspect of the delusion, however, you make a good point that the “once saved always saved doctrine” could definately be part of the “lie” that they believe. I think the delusion sent most likely extends to the full spectrum of false doctrines. However, it is very interesting that the context of the verse implies that they may feel they have a license to continue to sin since they did not love the truth and delighted in wickedness.
The license to sin is inherently built into the “once saved always saved” doctrine no matter how much it's advocates deny it.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Hi mercy,
Good points.Hi Is 1.18,
There is a thread or two on this.
“Of course, if it's true that the Holy Spirit is given to us a pledge of our salvation as He seals us in Christ Jesus, and will indwell us forever, then I can't see how its possible to lose our salvation….As another aside, if we could lose our salvation we would also be confronted with the paradox of gaining eternal life temporarily…
Perhaps a topic for another thread…”
Paul was anxiously waiting for the fruit of his planting to emerge.
Gal 4
” 19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, “Yet they had been taught and had responded and been baptised in that faith into Christ.
Gal 3
” 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
It takes time and must be fed by the Word and allowed room as an inner teacher by openmindedness.
Mk 4
26″And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;27And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
28For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
29But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.”
That is the Spirit of Christ such as Peter manifested in Matt 16 because the Spirit is in union with God.
” 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
So is it possible for that Spirit to be grieved and to leave a man?
Does every branch on the vine produce fruit or are some pruned off and thrown in the fire?
Or is it rather that the Spirit is not allowed to take root in us and give us sustenance unto eternal life – is it stolen by the birds or the ground is too hard or does not soak up the rain often falling on it?
Hebrews 6:7
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:Jn 6.63
” 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”Gal 5
“16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
Like the Israelites we must allow the Spirit to conquer our inner occupied promised land.
There seems to be too many scriptures indicating the ability to lose it. Eternal Life is a destination of which no one can force me off the road to it, but I can chose to walk a different direction. Eternal life is the treasure of great value where we sell all to gain it, we cannot just claim it is ours or we may find ourselves as the man which had not on a wedding garment:
12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14For many are called, but few are chosen.
This also ties in with the parable of the sower.
Just my thoughts.
Hi,
If you study these scriptures below…
Eph 1.13-14
“13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.”
2Cor 1
” 22who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. “
1Jn 4
” 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.”…you will see that those who speak them are saying they have experienced the work of the Spirit in them. The Spirit has found good soil and produced fruit unto righteousness.
They are not spoken by newborn babies who are yet to know the voice of the Spirit in their lives such as those Paul was anxious about in Gal 4,but they know by the works of God done through them God is at work in them to will and to do.
They are led by the Spirit and we too need to submit to the Spirit and let Him use us so that we will not turn back from our eternal destiny in God.
Hi All:
The Holy Ghost does not take away our free will. As born again believers, we should not want to sin, but if we choose to go back into the world, we can. (2 Ti 4:10)
“But and if that servant say in his heart, my lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more”. (Luke 12:45-48)
H: Because of the above, I do not believe that “once saved always saved”. We as born again believers are under grace, but this is not a license to practice sin. We must strive to obey the commandments of our Lord, and when we sin, we must repent. Otherwise, it is not the Holy Spirt who dwells in us, but sin. “Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in you”. (John 6:53) “I am the the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit”. (John 15:1-2) “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of the Father which is in heaven”. (Matt. 7:21)
The delusion is that these will believe and worship the Anti-Christ. “And in all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they might believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness”. (2 Thes. 2:10-12) “And all that dwell upon the earth whall worship him (the Anti-Christ), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”. (Rev. 13:8)
The greatest delusion is not once saved always saved, but rather being saved in the first place. Those who practice lawlessness demonstrate that no true conversion has taken place, and even some of those who may have signs following (Matt. 7:21-23). Any doctrine of man is a delusion and wicked, but I believe that Satan has blinded the minds of many, and only a small remnant (compared to all who have lived) will even be saved.(Matt 7:13-14)
Go to any so-called church and they wil all have a salvation plan based only on part of the Bible. They will have confession with no faith or faith with no repentance or baptism with no repentance or baptism with no faith or no faith,no repentance but baptism………. The list goes on.
Another delusion of Satan is the so-called church, which rejects God's Word to hold to their traditions (Mark 7:8). Show me some one hired to preach the Word. It's not in the Bible. Show me tax exemption for God's church in the Word. It's not their, even Jesus paid taxes. How about Popes. Not there. Probably a topic for another thread, but definately fitting in a thread about strong delusions.
2 Thess. 2:2-3 (WEB)
. . .not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction2 Thess. 2:8 (WEB)
Then the lawless one will be revealed. . .This is talking about after the departure.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 29 2006,23:21) I believe that this is the delusion that is spoken of in Thess. This doctrine originated in the catholic religion with the confessional. And it eventually became a doctrine adopted by much of the donominations. So many think it is alright to sin willfully. That is a lie of Satan. And these lies will claim many, many souls to hell.
you know not of which you speak… Rome is explicitly against the doctrine of eternal security….“When we affirm that a believer can indeed be sure of his justification before God we immediately part company with religions like Roman Catholicism. The question of assurance was one of the primary points of contention between Rome and the Reformers. Rome called assurance of salvation “the Sin of Presumption.” For anyone to dare believe he went straight to heaven upon dying was tantamount to an unwarranted presuming on the grace of God. It was and is literally a mortal sin.
This view teaches that no man can be sure, while he is in this life, that he is justified in God's sight. No man can be certain that all of his sins are completely forgiven and that when he dies he is sure to see the face of God in peace and acceptance. The Roman Catholic Church is the premier representative of this view. She is also the most adamant in her deliberate opposition to the Biblical doctrine of assurance. Gregory the Great, a seventh century pope, not only denied assurance was possible, he taught it was dangerous and not even desirable.
The greater our sins, the more we must do to make up for them …whether we have done enough to atone for them we cannot know until after death … We can never be sure of success … assurance of salvation, and the feeling of safety engendered by it is dangerous for anybody and would not be desirable even if possible.
The Council of Trent, in answer to Luther's exposition of the Biblical truth of Justification by faith alone, went a step farther than Gregory the Great. They were not content to say that assurance was dangerous and not desirable, they declared that it was a mortal sin to claim assurance of salvation. They went still farther and, with full Papal authority and sanction, hurled anathemas and consigned to eternal damnation all who dared preach or believe such a doctrine. Let any who doubt this read the section on justification in the Decrees of the Council of Trent, and see how specifically and clearly the Jesuits spelled out how deeply Rome hates the doctrine of Assurance. Here are the actual words used by the Council of Trent:
Whosoever shall affirm, that when the grace of Justification is received, the offence of the penitent sinner is so forgiven, and the sentence of eternal punishment reversed, that there remains no temporal punishment to be endured, before his entrance into the kingdom of Heaven, either in this world or in the future world, in purgatory, let him be accursed. Council of Trent, January 1547.” (http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index030.htm)
So those here who deny eternal security are actually the ones who are in agreement with Rome. Rome clearly teaches that one cannot presume to even know they are saved for sure and thus, would automatically side with those who believe that salvation can be lost. Throughout the anathemas of Trent Rome speaks of those who “make shipwreck of their faith”, ie, of losing their salvation. That is what the concept of a “mortal sin” is all about. (see also http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11711a.htm )
here is an example from Rome showing just one way a person may “lose their salvation”, ie by denying the Immaculate Conception, eg that Mary was born free from original sin:
” Hence, if anyone shall dare — which God forbid! — to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.” (http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm)blessings
furthermore, we have an explicit promise from Christ Jesus Himself that all those for whom He had died, His sheep, that He would lose NONE:
John 6:37 ESV All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Be careful lest you condemn yourself by condemning Christ Jesus and His promise…..
see also http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/perseverance.html
blessings
Hi e,
Thank you for the exposition of catholic folly which I know you do not condone- salvation by our own works instead of those of Christ.2Tim 2 makes it plain that if we lose salvation we can blame none but ourselves.
It is only by actively rejecting our inheritance in Christ we lose it.
” 10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”
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