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Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 10 2010,09:58) hi georg Group: Regular Members
Posts: 530
Joined: Nov. 2009 Posted: Jan. 10 2010,01:35——————————————————————————–
terraricca, GeneWhen you don't understand something, but are to proud to admit it, then you have to stick with what you got.
The apostles holding back the anti-Christ, you're joking, right?
The apostles didn't hold back any one; in fact Paul scolded the Galatians for falling for a different gospel, and John said there were anti-Christs already in their midst.
Why don't you use your head a little?
If there is no man of sin, then Paul must be a liar, is that your assessment Gene?Georg
how you think we are connecting?
?????
who is WE? georg
2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.it is Constantine ,more or less 325 ad.
read the verse very slowly and divide in to section,terraricca
“””2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way,”””
How did Constantine deceive any one?
“””for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs”””
what rebellion happened during Constantine?
“””and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.”””
how was Constantine revealed as the man of lawlessness, and how was he destroyed?
“””2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God”””
how did he exalted himself above God? he in fact gave credit for his victory to the God of Christianity.
“””or is worshiped,”””
when was he worshiped as God?
“””so that he sets himself up in God’s temple,”””
what temple? the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
“””proclaiming himself to be God.”””
when did he do that?
Georg
hi georg
2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.first Paul says; don't let anyone deceive you any way” he was talking to is Church members and so those words were addressed to them.
second;it will not come before the rebellion occurs, what rebellion do we talk about ? there is only one rebellion possible in God will,that is the worshipers them selves who rebel against God by bringing false teachings ,idolatry,pagan worship.
this happen after the apostles died and the direct followers of them died as well .this was probably around 150 to 200 ad.now the rebellion could be completed to the fullest.
so went time was right about Constantine miracle view and he won ,he was a pagan king but found himself at the head of the pagan empire now,
this was is opportunity to grab the empire and united by creating a state religion ,who by his time were so divided that he sees here the opportunity to do just that.
of cause he as to control all of it because he then would control the civil ,military,and religious mind of the empire.he oppose God by not establish the truth of God, but instead he exalted himself to run the empire Church of God to become hi own.
in this he is sitting himself on the throne of God,sins the christian were called to be the Church of God in this way he sits himself in the temple of god.
he is doomed for destruction true, all his works are still there and are doomed for destruction.i hope this will clarified some of your questions
terraricca
Every Roman emperor has done what you say Constantine has done. All emperors were in charge of state, religion, and military.
Why did the emperors persecute the Jews? and from the time of Jesus they persecuted Christians too, why? because they refused to worship the emperor. Constantine changed all that, he stopped the persecution.
No, that clarifies none of my question, but I realise you don't have the answers because you understand history as much as you understand the Bible.Georg
georg
like i say this is what i believe but if you don't like it you are a free man,insults are not coming from Christ brothers they come from the devil offspringI'm bringing up this topic again because, I wonder if any one else is interested in what “the great falling away” means? and who the real “man of lawlessness” is?
This was, after all, not a debate between me and terraricca.Georg
Hi,
Stay within scripture[2Jn9]
The minds of men offered alternatives soon after the apostles.
These teachings are still far more popular as darkness is still preferred to the lightQuote (Elizabeth @ May 12 2010,01:38) I'm bringing up this topic again because, I wonder if any one else is interested in what “the great falling away” means? and who the real “man of lawlessness” is?
This was, after all, not a debate between me and terraricca.Georg
hi georgi do not do debates because it is most trowing opinions around than really understand scriptures truth
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ June 04 2010,13:51) Quote (Elizabeth @ May 12 2010,01:38) I'm bringing up this topic again because, I wonder if any one else is interested in what “the great falling away” means? and who the real “man of lawlessness” is?
This was, after all, not a debate between me and terraricca.Georg
hi georgi do not do debates because it is most trowing opinions around than really understand scriptures truth
Pierre
Opinions are given, when truth is not known, or, one may call truth an opinion for lack of understanding.Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,07:57) Quote (terraricca @ June 04 2010,13:51) Quote (Elizabeth @ May 12 2010,01:38) I'm bringing up this topic again because, I wonder if any one else is interested in what “the great falling away” means? and who the real “man of lawlessness” is?
This was, after all, not a debate between me and terraricca.Georg
hi georgi do not do debates because it is most trowing opinions around than really understand scriptures truth
Pierre
Opinions are given, when truth is not known, or, one may call truth an opinion for lack of understanding.Georg
hi georgyou right in your comment,
as for the man of lawlessness' it still is in my OPINION,Constantin, this is the real start of the lawlessness of one religion .and only in part it shows today only a little bit of what it was like.during century's
Pierre
Pierre
How can you believe it was Constantine?
Nero would be a better candidate, he was the one that persecuted the Jews and the Christians, and many emperors after him; Constantine on the other hand “STOPPED” the persecution, and allowed Christians to worship freely.
Now compare this with the Roman Catholic Church. The pope took over control of what used to be the western leg (two legs of iron) of the Roman empire, in 565 AD.
It was the Catholic church that would not allow any one to read the Bible, if you did, and got caught, you were killed. This is what you read in Rev. 13, he (the pope) is described as the “beast out of the earth (people), he is also described as looking like a lamb (imitating Christ), he is also said to be the image of the “beast”, Rome. He made war with the saints for 42 month, 1260 days/years.
It is estimated that during his reign, he has killed over 50 million people, if that many had died, how many do you thing may have “fallen away” for fear of torture and death? (2 Thes. 2:3)As I said, many scriptures can not be understood if you don't understand some of the history that goes with it.
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,14:27) Pierre How can you believe it was Constantine?
Nero would be a better candidate, he was the one that persecuted the Jews and the Christians, and many emperors after him; Constantine on the other hand “STOPPED” the persecution, and allowed Christians to worship freely.
Now compare this with the Roman Catholic Church. The pope took over control of what used to be the western leg (two legs of iron) of the Roman empire, in 565 AD.
It was the Catholic church that would not allow any one to read the Bible, if you did, and got caught, you were killed. This is what you read in Rev. 13, he (the pope) is described as the “beast out of the earth (people), he is also described as looking like a lamb (imitating Christ), he is also said to be the image of the “beast”, Rome. He made war with the saints for 42 month, 1260 days/years.
It is estimated that during his reign, he has killed over 50 million people, if that many had died, how many do you thing may have “fallen away” for fear of torture and death? (2 Thes. 2:3)As I said, many scriptures can not be understood if you don't understand some of the history that goes with it.
Georg
hi georgi agree to what you say;history /scriptures.
the reason why Constantine and not Nero?
Nero only lasted for a while and was a fallow up of the old regime,
so was Constantine,but in his case it seams Satan gives him the powers to dominate and to set up what will become the universal roman church,and the work or the tools to eliminate the true worship,and the bible itself.this became known as the dark ages.people became so corrupt that God send them the bubonic plague where half of Europe died.
during those years the devil helped them to establish his throne in the Vatican ,of cause they have produced during those years daughters (protestant,and other denominations)
but they also where slots just like the mother was.it is now trough all this that we are looking at scriptures for truth and some still want to argue of the validity of truth in the scriptures.
but true Christians do not rely on men version but God holy spirit for truth.
those are my reasons.
Pierre
Pierre
Constantine may have given the church her name, but that is all.
It was after that, that the church fathers, bishops, began in earnest to spread the “gospel”.
In Italy bishops were also called “father”, it was in 533 when Justinian, emperor of the west and the east, decided that only the bishop of Rome should hold the title “POPE”, aaaand, that the pope of Rome should be the “HEAD” of all clergy.
You should also know that the emperor not only ruled over the state, he also ruled over all religions, he was the “PONTIFEX MAXIMUS”, CHIEF RELIGIOUS RULER. Not only would the emperor “NOT” share this title with any one, but no one dared to call himself that as long as there was an emperor around. He, the emperor, was the one that restrained him (the pope) from taking over.2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (restrained) will let (restrain), until he (the emperor) be taken out of the way.
He, the emperor, was taken out of the way in 565 AD, Justinian died, and no other emperor of the east was able to maintain control over the west.
The bubonic plague, also called the black plague, is recorded in
Rev 16:1 ¶ And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2 ¶ And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
The mark of the beast, Rome, was the cross; and the once worshiping the image, were all those that called themself Catholics. It fell on what used to be the western “leg” of the Roman empire, now controlled by the “image” the Vatican”; it happened during the middle of the 14th Century.
The split in the church happened during the Great Reformation, started by Martin Luther in 1517.
These are my findings.
Georg
georg
the trinity was much later in time ;
Religious policy
Further information: Constantine I and Christianity and Constantine I and JudaismConstantine the Great, mosaic in Hagia Sophia, c. 1000Constantine is perhaps best known for being the first Christian Roman emperor; his reign was certainly a turning point for the Christian Church. In 313 Constantine announced toleration of Christianity in the Edict of Milan, which removed penalties for professing Christianity (under which many had been martyred in previous persecutions of Christians) and returned confiscated Church property. Though a similar edict had been issued in 311 by Galerius, then senior emperor of the Tetrarchy, Galerius' edict granted Christians the right to practice their religion but did not restore any property to them.[198]
Scholars debate whether Constantine adopted his mother St. Helena's Christianity in his youth, or whether he adopted it gradually over the course of his life.[199] Constantine would retain the title of pontifex maximus until his death, a title emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood, as would his Christian successors on to Gratian (r. 375–83). According to Christian writers, Constantine was over 40 when he finally declared himself a Christian, writing to Christians to make clear that he believed he owed his successes to the protection of the Christian High God alone.[200] Throughout his rule, Constantine supported the Church financially, built basilicas, granted privileges to clergy (e.g. exemption from certain taxes), promoted Christians to high office, and returned property confiscated during the Diocletianic persecution.[201] His most famous building projects include the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and Old Saint Peter's Basilica.
Constantine did not patronize Christianity alone, however. After gaining victory in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, a triumphal arch—the Arch of Constantine—was built to celebrate; the arch is decorated with images of Victoria and sacrifices to gods like Apollo, Diana, or Hercules, but contains no Christian symbolism. In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the “venerable day of the sun”, referencing the esoteric eastern sun-worship which Aurelian had helped introduce, and his coinage still carried the symbols of the sun-cult until 324. Even after the pagan gods had disappeared from the coinage, Christian symbols appear only as Constantine's personal attributes: the chi rho between his hands or on his labarum, but never on the coin itself.[202] Even when Constantine dedicated the new capital of Constantinople, which became the seat of Byzantine Christianity for a millennium, he did so wearing the Apollonian sun-rayed Diadem.
Constantine burning Arian booksThe reign of Constantine established a precedent for the position of the emperor in the Christian Church. Constantine himself disliked the risks to societal stability, that religious disputes and controversies brought with them, preferring where possible to establish an orthodoxy.[203] The emperor saw it as his duty to ensure that God was properly worshipped in his empire, and what proper worship consisted of was for the Church to determine.[204] In 316, Constantine acted as a judge in a North African dispute concerning the validity of Donatism. After deciding against the Donatists, Constantine led an army of Christians against the Donatist Christians. After 300 years of pacifism, this was the first intra-Christian persecution. More significantly, in 325 he summoned the Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified), Nicaea was to deal mostly with the heresy of Arianism. Constantine also enforced the prohibition of the First Council of Nicaea against celebrating the Lord's Supper on the day before the Jewish Passover (14 Nisan) (see Quartodecimanism and Easter controversy).[205]
Constantine made new laws regarding the Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves.
since Constantine all emperors where on top of the church and nominated the pope'
it is only in the 11century that the church start to gain freedom from the collapse of government.i have looked at Justinian but there is not much to say beside that it is a fallow up of the tradition of Constantine.
even many more emperors came into power after him.
this is what i could find by google it on the Internet.
Pierrehi georg
here is some of Justinian;;Justinian's religious policy reflected the imperial conviction that the unity of the Empire unconditionally presupposed unity of faith; and it appeared to him obvious that this faith could be only the Orthodox (Nicaean). Those of a different belief had to recognize that the process of consolidation, which imperial legislation had effected from the time of Constantius II, would now vigorously continue. The Codex contained two statutes[61] which decreed the total destruction of paganism, even in private life; these provisions were zealously enforced. Contemporary sources (John Malalas, Theophanes, John of Ephesus) tell of severe persecutions, even of men in high position.
Perhaps the most noteworthy event occurred in 529 when the Neoplatonic Academy of Athens was placed under state control by order of Justinian, effectively strangling this training-school for Hellenism. Paganism was actively suppressed. In Asia Minor alone, John of Ephesus claimed to have converted 70,000 pagans.[62] Other peoples also accepted Christianity: the Heruli,[63] the Huns dwelling near the Don,[64] the Abasgi,[65] and the Tzanni in Caucasia.[66
Religious activities
Justinian saw the orthodoxy of his empire threatened by diverging religious currents, especially Monophysitism, which had many adherents in the eastern provinces of Syria and Egypt. Monophysite doctrine had been condemned as a heresy by the Council of Chalcedon in 451, and the tolerant policies towards Monophysitism of Zeno and Anastasius I had been a source of tension in the relationship with the bishops of Rome. Justin reversed this trend and confirmed the Chalcedonian doctrine, openly condemning the Monophysites. Justinian, who continued this policy, tried to impose religious unity on his subjects by forcing them to accept doctrinal compromises that might appeal to all parties, a policy which proved unsuccessful as he satisfied none of them. Near the end of his life, Justinian became ever more inclined towards the Monophysite doctrine, especially in the form of Aphthartodocetism, but he died before being able to issue any legislation which would have elevated its teachings to the status of dogma. The empress Theodora sympathised with the Monophysites and is said to have been a constant source of pro-Monophysite intrigues at the court in Constantinople in the earlier years. In the course of his reign Justinian, who had a genuine interest in matters of theology, authored a small number of theological treatises.[50]This is some who came after Justinian;;;Tiberius II Constantine (Latin: Flavius Tiberius Constantinus Augustus; ca. 520/535 – August 14, 582) was Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Emperor from 574 to 582.
During his reign, Tiberius II Constantine gave away 7,200 pounds of gold each year for four years.[1]
He was a friend of Justin II, who appointed Tiberius Comes of the Excubitors. He took control of the empire when Justin II went insane in 574, and to increase his popularity, he immediately began spending money that Justin had reserved in his treasury.[2] The Empress Sophia, Justin's wife, reproached Tiberius for having reduced the state to poverty, saying:[3]
What I have been collecting through many years you are scattering prodigally in a short time
Tiberius replied:[3]
I trust to the Lord that money will not be lacking in our treasury so long as the poor receive charity and captives are ransomed. For this is the great treasure, since the Lord says, 'Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt and where thieves do not break through nor steal.' Therefore of these things which God has furnished us let us gather treasures in heaven, and God will deign to give us increase in this world.
Solidus of emperor Tiberius II Constantine wearing consular robes.Justin II, Tiberius's predecessor, had been made infirm by disease; the faculties of his mind were impaired and he subsequently lost the use of his feet. Confined to his palace, he became a stranger to the complaints of the people and the vices of the government. Conscious of his infirmity, he honorably chose to seek a successor to the Imperial throne. On the advice of his wife Sophia, he handed the diadem to one of his Excubitors, Tiberius.
“You behold,” said the emperor, “the ensigns of supreme power. You are about to receive them, not from my hand, but from the hand of God. Honor them, and from them you will derive honor. Respect the empress your mother: you are now her son; before, you were her servant. Delight not in blood; abstain from revenge; avoid those actions by which I have incurred the public hatred; and consult the experience, rather than the example, of your predecessor. As a man, I have sinned; as a sinner, even in this life, I have been severely punished: but these servants, (and we pointed to his ministers,) who have abused my confidence, and inflamed my passions, will appear with me before the tribunal of Christ. I have been dazzled by the splendor of the diadem: be thou wise and modest; remember what you have been, remember what you are. You see around us your slaves, and your children: with the authority, assume the tenderness, of a parent. Love your people like yourself; cultivate the affections, maintain the discipline, of the army; protect the fortunes of the rich, relieve the necessities of the poor.”[4]
While Justin was still alive, Tiberius' general Justinian fought and defeated the Persians in the East. Tiberius sent reinforcements to Italy in order to fight the Lombards. He saved Rome from Lombards and allied with Childebert II, the King of the Franks, in order to defeat them, but his army, under the command of Baduarius, was defeated by the enemy and the Lombards continued their conquests in Italy.
When Tiberius became full emperor upon Justin's death in 578, he extended his military activities into the remnants of the Western Roman Empire, where he made peace with the Visigoths in Spain and defeated the Berbers in North Africa. He may have been the Emperor Lucius Tiberius of Arthurian legend, sending envoys to former Roman provinces after a long period without Imperial presence. Meanwhile, the Slavs began to migrate into the Balkans in 579; unfortunately, Tiberius needed the army to defend against Persian invasions, and was unable to stop the Slavic migrations.
this is another;;Maurice (Latin: Flavius Mauricius Tiberius Augustus; Greek: Φλάβιος Μαυρίκιος Τιβέριος Αὔγουστος; 539 – 27 November 602), was Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Emperor from 582 to 602. A prominent general in his youth, Maurice fought with success against the Sassanids. Once emperor, he brought the war with Persia to a victorious conclusion: expanding the eastern frontier dramatically and marrying his daughter to Khosrau II, the Persian king. Maurice also campaigned extensively in the Balkans against the Avars – pushing them back across the Danube by 599. In the west, Maurice established two large semi-autonomous provinces called exarchates, ruled by exarchs, viceroys, of the emperor. In Italy, Maurice established the Exarchate of Ravenna in 584, the first real effort by the empire to halt the advance of the Lombards. With the creation of the Exarchate of Africa in 590, Maurice further solidified the empire's hold on the western Mediterranean. His reign was troubled by financial difficulties and almost constant warfare. In 602, a dissatisfied general Phocas usurped the throne, having Maurice and his six sons executed. This event would prove cataclysmic for the empire, sparking a devastating war with Persia that would leave both empires helpless in the wake of the Muslim invasions. His reign is a relatively accurately documented era of the Late Antiquity; in particular by the historian Theophylact Simocatta. Maurice a
lso authored the Strategikon, a manual of war which influenced European militaries for nearly a millenium. Maurice stands out as one of the last emperors whose empire still bore a strong resemblance to the Roman Empire of previous centuries.this is about the popes during those years;;Nicaea to East-West Schism (325–1054)
During these seven centuries, the church unified by Emperor Constantine within his empire effectively split first, after the 451 Council of Chalcedon, into Chalcedonian Christianity and Oriental Orthodoxy, and then, after the 1054 East-West Schism, into a Greek East and Latin West. In the West, the pope became independent of the Emperor in the East and became a major force in politics there.Imperial capitals: Rome and Constantinople
With the conversion of Roman Emperor Constantine to Christianity and the Council of Nicea, the Christian religion received imperial sanction.At the time of the Council (325), Rome was still seen as the capital of the empire, although the emperor rarely lived there. With the establishment of a new fixed capital in Constantinople (330), there arose a new centre, which quickly grew in prominence, rivalling those in Rome, Alexandria and Antioch, which previously had been the most important centres of Christianity.
Of these, Rome claimed the principal place, as illustrated by Pope Leo the Great's statement, in about 446, that “the care of the universal Church should converge towards Peter's one seat, and nothing anywhere should be separated from its Head”,[29] clearly articulating the expansion of papal authority as doctrine, and promulgating his right to exercise “the full range of apostolic powers that Jesus had first bestowed on the apostle Peter”.
The early ecumenical councils, especially the First Council of Constantinople (381), affirmed the importance of the Bishop of Rome's position, though all the councils in the Church's early history took place in cities in the East, and the Pope did not personally attend the council in 381. At the ecumenical Council of Chalcedon in 451, Leo I (through his emissaries) stated that he was “speaking with the voice of Peter”. At this same council, the Bishop of Constantinople was given “equal privileges” to those of the Bishop of Rome, because “Constantinople is the New Rome”. Pope Leo rejected this decree on the ground that it contravened the sixth canon of Nicaea and infringed the rights of Alexandria and Antioch.[30]
Medieval development
Gregory the Great (c 540–604) who established medieval themes in the Church, in a painting by Carlo Saraceni, circa 1610, Rome.After the fall of Rome, the pope served as a source of authority and continuity. Gregory the Great (c 540–604) administered the church with strict reform.[6] From an ancient senatorial family, Gregory worked with the stern judgment and discipline typical of ancient Roman rule.[6] Theologically, he represents the shift from the classical to the medieval outlook, his popular writings full of dramatic miracles, potent relics, demons, angels, ghosts, and the approaching end of the world.[6]
Gregory's successors were largely dominated by the exarch or the Eastern emperor.[6] These humiliations, the weakening of the Empire in the face of Muslim expansion, and the inability of the Emperor to protect the papal estates made Pope Stephen II turn from the Emperor.[6] Seeking protection against the Lombards and getting no help from Emperor Constantine V, the pope appealed to the Franks to protect his lands.[6] Pepin the Short subdued the Lombards and donated Italian land to the Papacy.[6] When Leo III crowned Charlemagne (800), he established the precedent that no man would be emperor without anointment by a pope.[6]
Around 850, a forger, probably from among the French opposers of Hincmar, Archbishop of Reims[31] made a collection of church legislation that contained forgeries and genuine documents.[31][32] At first some attacked it as false, but it was taken as genuine throughout the rest of the Middle Ages[31] It is now known as the False Decretals. It was part of a series of falsifications of previous legislation by a party in the Carolingian Empire whose primary aim was to free the church and the bishops from interference by the state and the metropolitans respectively,[31][32] and who were concerned for papal supremacy as guaranteeing those rights.[31] The author, a French cleric calling himself Isidore Mercator, created false documents purportedly by early church popes, demonstrating that supremacy of the papacy dated back to the church's oldest traditions.[6] The decretals include the Donation of Constantine, in which Constantine grants Pope Sylvester I secular authority over all Western Europe.[33] Thanks to this forgery in the collection, the decretals became one of the most persuasive forgeries in the history of the West. It supported Papal policies for centuries.[6]
Pope Nicholas I (858–867) asserted that the pope should have suzerain authority over all Christians, even royalty, in matters of faith and morals.[6] Only Photius, bishop of Constantinople, dared gainsay him.[6] He sternly defended morality and justice in a decadent age.[6] After his death, the authority of the papacy was acknowledged more widely than ever before.[6]
The low point of the Papacy was 867–1049.[34] The Papacy came under the control of vying political factions.[34] Popes were variously imprisoned, starved, killed, and deposed by force.[34] The family of a certain papal official made and unmade popes for fifty years.[34] The official's great-grandson, Pope John XII, held orgies of debauchery in the Lateran palace.[34] Emperor Otto I of Germany had John accused in an ecclesiastical court, which deposed him and elected a layman as Pope Leo VIII.[34] John mutilated the Imperial representatives in Rome and had himself reinstated as Pope.[34] Conflict between the Emperor and the papacy continued, and eventually dukes in league with the emperor were buying bishops and popes almost openly.[34]
In 1049, Leo IX became pope, at last a pope with the character to face the papacy's problems.[34] He traveled to the major cities of Europe to deal with the church's moral problems firsthand, notably the sale of church offices or services (simony) and clerical marriage and concubinage.[34] With his long journey, he restored the prestige of the Papacy in the north.[34]
East–West Schism to Reformation (1054–1517)
Historical map of the Western Schism: red is support for Avignon, blue for RomeThe East and West churches split definitively in 1054. This fracture was caused more by political events than by slight diversities of creed.[34] Popes had galled the emperors by siding with the king of the Franks, crowning a rival Roman emperor, appropriating the exarchate of Ravenna, and driving into Greek Italy.[34]
In the Middle Ages, popes struggled with monarchs over power.[5]
From 1309 to 1377, the pope resided not in Rome but in Avignon (see Avignon Papacy). The Avignon Papacy was notorious for greed and corruption.[35] During this period, the pope was effectively an ally of France, alienating France's enemies, such as England.[36]
The pope was understood to have the power to draw on the “treasury” of merit built up by the saints and by Christ, so that he could grant indulgences, reducing one's time in purgatory.[35] The concept that a monetary fine or donation accompanied contrition, confession, and prayer eventually gave way to the common assumption that indulgences depended on a simple monetary contribution.[35] Popes condemned misunderstandings and abuses but were too pressed for income to exercise effective control over indulgences.[35]
i think this shows the results of what was started by Constantine 1,
Pierre
Pierre
Those are historical facts, which I do not dispute.
The information that I have given, was only in as much as it related to scripture, and, or, prophecy.
It never was my intention to make a history lesson out of it, but, what you did is good, because you can verify whether, what I reported, was so or not, historically I mean.
Yes, you are right when you say, it all started with Constantine; because, had he not allowed the Christians to worship freely, we don't know how much longer they would have been suppressed, and persecuted by the Romans.
But, God know the affairs of man, and therefore can predict the future, we on the other hand, have to look back, and see where prophecy fits in with history.Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 11 2010,16:49) Pierre Those are historical facts, which I do not dispute.
The information that I have given, was only in as much as it related to scripture, and, or, prophecy.
It never was my intention to make a history lesson out of it, but, what you did is good, because you can verify whether, what I reported, was so or not, historically I mean.
Yes, you are right when you say, it all started with Constantine; because, had he not allowed the Christians to worship freely, we don't know how much longer they would have been suppressed, and persecuted by the Romans.
But, God know the affairs of man, and therefore can predict the future, we on the other hand, have to look back, and see where prophecy fits in with history.Georg
georgthanks
i will PM you wen i ready
Pierre
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