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Hi,
This discussion has arisen recently from a look at 2 Thess 2.1f and I would like to see it developed.
Apostasy is rejection of truth by those who are saved I would have thought. So this must arise within the assembly and before the false worship of the “man of perdition” and before”the day of the Lord”.
Note that he takes his seat “in the temple of God”
Is this the spiritual temple?
Is it “the beast”
Who can add?ps. The verses seem to say that Christ will not return and the first resurrection and rapture not take place until the beast assumes power.
Rev 13.says he is worshipped by the whole world, he makes war on the saints and overcomes them and then he has worldwide authority given him for 3 and a half years.Hi,
The greatest apostasy seemed to occur in the 2nd century AD when parts of the church aligned with the state in Constantine and compromised the teachings of Christ. I believe those that did so cut themselves off from the head of the Body, Christ himself. They have continued to flourish till the present day, unaware of their current status before God but amply repesented in Revelation 17 and 18.They teach salvation through works and fidelity to their false teachingsGod always keeps a remnant and people of true faith have passed on the original message till now scattered over the world. God knows His own and continues to bless them and provide for them. He kept the message sufficiently intact in written form to guide their way.
In more recent years the popular message of “believe and you are saved” has also presented itself as another apostasy based on a lack of understanding of Rom 10. It takes various forms such as ” make a decision and invite Jesus into your heart and you are saved”, ” be born of the Holy Spirit and you are saved”. Sin is denied and the need for receiving forgiveness through water baptism rejected and false gifts are often manifested while 'evangelists' empty pockets through the use of TV “ministry”.
From God's point of view looking at the earth is there faith on earth? Jesus asked the same question about the time of his return.
Yes. Even many of those that think they are believers are not even so. Many are deceived. The once saved always saved doctrine I wrote about at my forum. Its an antichrist doctrine. However, I do believe that once one is truely saved they are always saved – occurring only after the return of Christ. Faith is the evidence of things not seen and the substance of things hoped for. Faith is a practice of the Spirit of the Law whereas its different than the the practice of the Letter of the Law. So when God says where will He find Faith – its about where will He find the practice of the Spirit of the Law.
Paul
Hi,
It certainly seems to me that scriptural truth is no longer valued by most and falsehoods are rampant. God is not known and the Son too is denied. Those who speak of the Spirit have never known the power of God. The false church rules over the lost and and yet complacency is everywhere.Hi,
Rom 16.17f
“Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissension and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves not of our Lord Jesus Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting”When scriptures such as this are looked at, they are often placed in our time frame. And people you speak to that have a different view than you will apply that sort of scripture to you. It can be applied to our time. But these words to the Romans were meant for the Romans specifically and written to them so they could deal with what was going on at that time. What was going on at that time was the beginning of a falling away, a deviation from true Christianity. Many other sriptures written by Paul, Peter, John, and Jude speak of this apostasy with a great sence of urgency. It had begun literally decades after Jesus returned to heaven. It started slowly, but grew, like gangrene. Jude, for example, says he was making “every effort” to write about the salvation they held in common. He wanted to write about good things, happy things. But he “found it necessary” to exort the brothers to put up a hard fight for the faith. His reason? Certain men had slipped into the congregations. It was beginning.
I'm wondering what you think of the wheat the the weeds of Jesus' illustration.Hi d,
Matt 13.24f
“…The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also”So Jesus is the man sowing the wheat and the field is the world as Jesus explains in vv 37f . The good seed are the “sons of the kingdom”. They are intermixed with and not easily recognisable from the tares who pretend to be followers of Jesus but serve another master. Together they make up what the world calls “the church”. But the real church only makes up part of that body. Tares grow from tare seed planted by Satan. Wheat grows when the grain dies in baptism and is raised up to new life in the likeness of the Lord Jesus.
2 Tim 2.19
“…The Lord knows those who are his”“While men were sleeping his enemy came and oversowed weeds…” I'm interested in the timing of this statement. When did it begin? While men were sleeping. Looking at history, it seems that when the apostles who had been acting as a restraint against apostasy fell asleep in death, the congregation became spiritually drowsy. Since this scripture and the other ones that spoke of apostasy seemed to indicate that it was already at work before the apostles even left the scene, we really can't look to any creeds written by men. Jesus, and the inspired writers warned against what was to come. We really can't trust any ideas that were formed over the decades or centuries following the first century. The trinity is one such idea.
Quite so david,
The real problem is most likely in repentance. Simon Magus and others in the early chapters of Acts were baptised but without repentance which is the clearing of the ground to take the seed. Thus sin continued to reign in his heart and the Spirit in Peter recognised the problem.
Jesus said “unless you repent you will all likewise perish”
The church immediately ran into problems with those who wanted to bring the Law and it's regulations into the new covenant and that is part of the same problem.
We are told also that those with the antichrist spirit arose from within the assembly again indicating lack of repentance.
We are all the same stock and that is why for all of us repentance is an ongoing issue. We all bring misconceptions and wrong attitudes into the kingdom and we must submit to the ongoing work of the Spirit to show us what we need to change.
Daily submission to the Father in the light of the “Lord's prayer” is the way to walk.Hi,
When men rejected the way of Jesus and decided they could set up their own paths of salvation so soon after Christ and his disciples died then they became again as gentiles-separated from even the hoped for inheritance of the Jews through the Law to which they never were a part.
Rom 2.12
” For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law”What Paul said in 1Cor 10.20 about their attempts at worship was;
“No but I say that the things which the gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons”
So there are many sincere people who are deceived and worship demons, and Revelation says they will continue to do so blindly trusting in their traditional teachings.
Rev10.20
“The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons..”They will eventually complete their folly by worshipping the beast, a human world leader, who is Satan, the dragon, incarnate.
Rev 13.4f
“And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshipped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast..”The beast is the one and only human authority we are told we must refuse to obey when it is demanded that we accept the mark.
Nick, I cannot sit up for very long because I get headaches for spinal fluid leakage, however, you better be aware that the USA and the united nations are the beast today, and satan the devil gave it its seat and great authority, and this whole world has wondered after the “” first beast which was ROME “( Rev.13:1-2).
And ( Rev.13:3-4, and verse 8) says the whole world's inhabbatitants worshipped THE BEAST AND THE DRAGON( ie- the devil) by deception( Rev.12:9).
And in ( Rev.13:11) is described ANOTHER BEAST that had 2 horns( which represents kings and their kingdoms–See Dan.and Rev.17:12) which these are 2 religious Kingdoms within the ONE BEAST GOVERNMENT KINGDOM and it ( this ANOTHER BEAST KINGDOM) was LIKE A LAMB- which symbolizes and looks LAMB OR MESSIAH LIKE, however, he ( This Another Beast spoke as a DRAGON, which it spoke the doctrines of satan the devil, because the Dragon Symbol is the symbol of the devil ( Rev.12:9).
Here, John saw ANOTHER BEAST that exorcised all the power of the first beast( REV.13:12)( Rome), it has 2 religious knigdoms that look Messiah lamb like, all within the THE ONE BEAST KINGDOM.
Now, ( Rev.13:13) And he( This ANOTHER BEAST) does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down out of heaven( the Sky== the Atom Bomb that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasoky Japan) on earth in the sight of men.
This ANOTHER BEAST KINGDOM is the U.S.A., which has its 2 religious ( ONE religious horn Group observes the Roman Saturday, and the OTHER religious horn Group observes Sunsday for their intermission rest day), and they have set up an imaginary image ( Je'SUS=ISUS= IHS= NIMROD as their savior, and the Babylonian Deity of GAD=GAWD=GOD( Isa.65:11), and caused the whole world to worship satan and ROME the first beast government system which was given its authority by satan the devil( Rev.13:2), and people today are worshipping the IMAGE of an idol deity called GAWD=GOD, and they have his NAME- ie GAWD=GOD , his MARK which Saturday and Sunday as rest day of worship, so infact they worship satan the devil ( Rev.13:3-4, verse 8) through satan's deception( Rev.12:9), and through satan's ministers ( 2 Cor. 11:13-15).
Yah's SABBATHS( Appointed times) ARE DETERMINED BY THE MOON( Gen.1:14-15; Lev.23:1-4; Psalms 104:19) for intermission and rest in each week, and every where you find a SEVENTH DAY SABBATH IN EACH MONTH, it will be on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th in each and every month or moon.
Do you know the word ” month comes from MOON ?
People are following after and using satan's MARK= Saturday and Sunday and his Blasphemous title names of LORD=BAAL and GAD=GAWD=GOD, and satan's mark and title names are IN HIS PEOPLE'S FOREHEADS( Rev.13:16).
Compare, One class of people have Yah and Messiah's true NAME in their FOREHEADS( Rev.14:1; Rev.22:3-4, and the true SABBATH and His Laws is Yah's Sign or mark Exod.13:9; Exod. 31:13,17; Deut.6:8; Deut.11:18), and the other class of people have satan's mark( which is Saturday and sunday, and they believe the law was abolished), and this other class of people have satan's title names of LORD= Baal and GAWD=GOD in their FOREHEADS and disobey with their hands( Rev.13:16).
Satan's idol title names of blasphemy=” lord and god ” and their false savior of IHS=NIMROD,is in satan's deceived people's foreheads, and Yah's laws, commandments, His true name and Messiah's true name is in HIS people's FOREHEADS( Rev.14:1; Rev.22:3-4) .
Now who's NAME= the Father Yah and Yahushua do you want in your FOREHEAD OR MIND, Yah's and Yahushua, or satan's blasphemous title names of Baalim= lord and gawd=god ?
What name do you use in your mind or forehead, is it lord gawd=god, or is it Yahweh and Yahushua?
Which ” Father” do you OBEY, the father satan( John 8:44), OR is it the true Holy FATHER YAH John 17:11, its your choice?
You can argue against it all you want, but what you think does not matter a thing, and will not change the truth of scriptures.
This day is these scriptues and this truth fulfilled in your very eyes.
Shalom,
Eliyah C.
The United States is the only Kingdom in History, that has literally brought fire down out of heaven( the sky) on the earth in the sight of men, and those that survived the 2 Atom bomb blasts in Hiroshima and Nagasocky, said the fire was so great and bright that they thought the end of the world had come( which it did for most all those in the 2 Cities of Japan), it is the only nation on earth where its lamb like ministers claim to do miracles, and its the only nation on earth that has created wondorus and miraculas things for mankinds use.
No other nation or kingdom on earth fits ( Rev.13:11) except the united states.
All things have been restored, the true seventh day sabbath was restored in the late 1980s when I was comparing the Roman Gregorian Solar Calendar and its month and weeks with the scriptures.
All sabbath days are on the 8th day of month ( first quarter waxing half moon), 15th day of month= FULL MOON, 22nd day of month= wanning half moon, and the 29th day of month = last sliver of moon, the the cycle starts all over again.
The NEW MOON= 1 day of the month was never counted as one of the six working days as Ezek.46:1 says “” Thus saith YHWH=Yah; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days;but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the NEW MOON it shall be opened.
The Feasts, Sabbath, and New Moons were commanded by Paul in ( Col.2:16) TO THE GENTILES, other wise how could gentile people be judged with reguards to days they never kept to start with, if this is not a command for them to not let anyone judge them for keeping them? They also kept the feast of Pentecost( Acts 2).
The NEW MOON DAY is the first day of the month, and it was never counted as one of the six working days, as the gate was to be kept OPEN FOR WORSHIP ON THE SABBATH AND DAY OF THE NEW MOON ( Ezek.46:1)
This explains why the sabbaths( Except for the fast day which is the 10th day of the Seventh moon or month) were on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days in each and every month, compare( Exod.12:15-18) WITH ( Num. 9:1-4) as they were keeping the same set fixed sabbaths 2 years in a row, which is impossible with the Roman Gregorian Calendar.
Every 8th day in every month was a sabbath day. Proof you ask.
Compare Red Letter ( John 7:22-23) with ( Lev.12;3) circumcission was performed on male children ON THE SABBATH DAY, which was also THE 8TH DAY OF THE MONTH, every 8th day is a sabbath in each in every month, they had a fixed Calendar by the moon( Psalms 104:19 = Hebrew number 4150 =appointed time =sabbath day)
I will give anyone a THOUSAND DOLLARS if you can find a sabbath that is not on the 8th, 15th, 22, or 29th days( not counting the fast day=10th day of the seventh month which it too is found by the moon) in each and every month in the scriptures, that is not found by the phases of moon.
Otherwise, how did Moses know which day of the month it was in each and every month?
http://www.elyah.freeservers.com/index.html
http://www.ministersnewcovenant.org/
You had better remember, faith without obedience to Yah is a dead faith, James makes that perfectly clear, and Peter said that Yah gave His true HOLY SPIRIT ONLY TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM( Acts 5:32).
Hi eliyah,
I hope you are more comfortable.
Lev 12.2
“..When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean. On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised”So your understanding of this verse is that the SEVEN days AFTER GIVING BIRTH bear no relationship to the next line where the EIGHTH day is mentioned? You say it does not relate to the EIGHTH day after giving birth but the EIGHTH day of the month?
Sigh..
WHAT i'M saying, is that the 8th day in (Lev. 12:3) was a sabbath day, which circumcission was performed( John 7:22-23), and that every 8th day in each and every month was a seventh day weekly sabbath determined by the moon( Gen. 1:14-15; Psalms 104:19).
You mis-understand greatly Nick.
I undersrand about the woman being unclean for seven days, however, my point is that the 8th day is a seventh day weekly sabbath( John 7:22-23).
The 8th day of the month is the first waxing half quarter of the moon, and when the ancients of old saw a waxing half quarter moon they knew it was the 8th day of the month, which was always a seventh day sabbath.
Also, when they saw a complete round full moon, they knew it was the 15th day of the month, which is also a seventh day sabbath.
And when they saw another wanning half quarter moon, they knew it was the 22nd day of the month, and also a seventh day sabbath. and so on, untill the cycle started over again with the NEW MOON of the next month.
Their sabbaths were always on the same set fixed days in each and every moon or month, as also concerning the second month in Exod.Chapter 16 where the 15th day was a seventh day sabbath verse 1 when the camped, and counting 7 day from the 15th brings you to the 22nd day, which was also a seventh day sabbath.
All this proves that the Roman Saturday and Sunday is not the true scriptural SEVENTH DAY SABBATH, as they in the scriptures were observing the same set fixed 14th day Passover, and 15th day sabbath( Exod. 12:17; Num.9:1-5) in BOTH THE FIRST AND SECOND YEAR, TWO YEARS IN A ROW.
Which is impossible for the Roman Saturday, because on the Roman Gregorian calendar, Saturday will NEVER fall on the same day TWO YEARS IN A ROW as the scriptural calendar that is governed by the moon( Psalms 104:19).
Those who observe Saturday and Sunday, are not observing the scriptural fixed calendar sabbath that is determined by the moon, and the same is true durring Messiah's time as when they observed THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES in the seventh month also in the New Testament, as they observed the FEAST OF PENTECOST in ( Acts 2).
Eliyah still on the net by the grace of Yah, but still leaking spinal fluid.
Saturday and Sunday are marks of ROME THE FIRST BEAST( Rev.13, 17, 18), and in ( Dan.7:25) which was Daniel's 4th beast, and John's 1st beast would “” THINK TO CHANGE YAH'S APPOINTED TIMES AND LAWS “”, and this is exactly what has been done in the 3rd century .
The true scriptural seventh day sabbaths are called the Hebrew Moedim or Moed( strongs 4150= appointed times) and are all listed in ( Lev.23:1-3) along with all the other FEASTS OR APPOINTED TIMES such as Tabernacles and Pentecost
If the FEAST DAYS LIKE THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES are abolished, then why is Messiah going to destroy and bring a curse on all the Nations of the Earth that come not up to KEEP THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES( Zech.14:17-19) if these feast days were abolished and are noth to be kept today ?
It is Rediculous to say those APPOINT TIME FEASTS are abolised now today, whan the Messiah is going to destroy all nations that do not observe it when He returns.
People are stupid, and think YHWH has two different ways for Gentiles and Israelites, because Paul reveals that the Gentils are grafted in to the House of Israel, and those Gentiles that are grafted in, must also go the way and do as Messiah and Israel did including obeying YHWH'S laws, the Mwssiah did not come to keep the law for you, you must observe and do as Messiah did and WALK IN HIS STEPS, and He certainly never wilfully broke The Father Yah's Commandments, if you do not do as Messiah did, and if you wilfully break Yah's Laws( Heb.10:26) you are totally lost UNLESS THOU REPENT.
Eliyah C.
Quote (Eliyah @ Dec. 12 2005,05:52) I undersrand about the woman being unclean for seven days, however, my point is that the 8th day is a seventh day weekly sabbath( John 7:22-23). The 8th day of the month is the first waxing half quarter of the moon, and when the ancients of old saw a waxing half quarter moon they knew it was the 8th day of the month, which was always a seventh day sabbath.
Also, when they saw a complete round full moon, they knew it was the 15th day of the month, which is also a seventh day sabbath.
And when they saw another wanning half quarter moon, they knew it was the 22nd day of the month, and also a seventh day sabbath. and so on, untill the cycle started over again with the NEW MOON of the next month.
Their sabbaths were always on the same set fixed days in each and every moon or month, as also concerning the second month in Exod.Chapter 16 where the 15th day was a seventh day sabbath verse 1 when the camped, and counting 7 day from the 15th brings you to the 22nd day, which was also a seventh day sabbath.
All this proves that the Roman Saturday and Sunday is not the true scriptural SEVENTH DAY SABBATH, as they in the scriptures were observing the same set fixed 14th day Passover, and 15th day sabbath( Exod. 12:17; Num.9:1-5) in BOTH THE FIRST AND SECOND YEAR, TWO YEARS IN A ROW.
Which is impossible for the Roman Saturday, because on the Roman Gregorian calendar, Saturday will NEVER fall on the same day TWO YEARS IN A ROW as the scriptural calendar that is governed by the moon( Psalms 104:19).
Those who observe Saturday and Sunday, are not observing the scriptural fixed calendar sabbath that is determined by the moon, and the same is true durring Messiah's time as when they observed THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES in the seventh month also in the New Testament, as they observed the FEAST OF PENTECOST in ( Acts 2).
Eliyah still on the net by the grace of Yah, but still leaking spinal fluid.
Hi eliyah,
Jn 7.22
“For this reason Moses has given you the circumcision[not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers]and on the sabbath you circumcise a man.If a man receives circumcision on the sabbath so that the law will not be broken, are you angry with me because I made an entire man well on the sabbath?”So scripture says males must be circumcised on the eighth day.
This is true EVEN IF the eighth day is a sabbath.
What it does not say is that all must be circumcised on the sabbath-that is a farcical interpretation in my view.
If it did mean that then the law to circumcise on the eighth day is broken.
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