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Hi,
Desperation to give some sort of foundation to a dogma that is not written-trinity-leads to one verse studies like this.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2010,16:45) Hi,
Desperation to give some sort of foundation to a dogma that is not written-trinity-leads to one verse studies like this.
NHDoes that mean you will throw that verse out like Matt 28:19?
WJ
Hi WJ,
Grappling with peripheral verses to try to back a trinity while ignoring the statement that Jesus made that he is the Son of God seems to be foolishness.
The best your logic can come up with will always be inferential.
Deal with the elephant in the room.WJ,
I see you are not responding to the question I asked… is there a reason for that… It's not a trick question so wat's teh problem?
Ok, let me answer it for you.
Quote Here is the verse:
“For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who has built the house has more honor than the house.”Now, Jack says that the builder is God? Can I ask you agree here?
WJ: “Yes, that is what Jack say”
JA: “Ok. Thanks. And then Man is Jesus, Yes, Ok?, so plug in Jesus for 'Man' and 'God' for Builder (He):”
“For this Jesus was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as GOD who built the house has more honor than the house.”JA: ok, WJ, So now let us look at what you were laughing at. here is the quote:
Quote Quote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,14:54)
Lets look at that again with some paraphrasing:
“[Jesus is] counted worthy of more glory than Moses inasmuch as the [God who built] the house is counted worthy of more glory than the house.”JA
Are you making this up as you go along?
Now, seeing that I was plugging in what jack said into what …Jack Said… I don't know – It looks PRETTY MUCH The Same to me.
In fact – IT IS THE SAME – Which side of your face are you laughing on now WJ. perhaps that's why you threw in the unnecessary quote from me that is only indirectly linked to this.
But ok, to answer your question:
What does Scriptures say about who built the world – who do you say built the world. – All along Trinis say that Jesus is the builder – Jesus himself says “I built the world”.All of a sudden this Trini, Jack says contrary – now what are we to do when a trini changes track? We are all lost… cos we just used to saying the opposite to him – ha! No No No … I hope no one is thinking of JA like that – JA has his wits about him at all times.
Non-Trinis say that God built the world THROUGH Jesus – I say that – always have Always Will.
How many illustrations have I given….argghh!! you guys with selective memories…. What did I write:
Quote The Builder is Jesus.
The owner of that which the builder built is his Father, God.If you are a builder and someone employs you to build a house for them, gives you the plans(the Word) and the Cash (power and authority) to 'make it happen', do you then claim that the house is YOURS when it is finished,…or do you 'hand it over to he that commissioned you'?
The builder builds the house under the directions of the owner of the house. “You tell it – I'll do it”
WJ, you are posting nonesense – for what reason I do not know – or rather – I do know – because you realise that you posted against your own.
Jack says God is the builder – Yet your response has always previously been that it was Jesus.
Our NonTrini response is that Jesus build under the directions of God – God build Through Jesus – and this is also what Scriptures says:
God: From Him(1 Corinthians 8:6 “Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him;”
Jesus: “And one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Jesus: By Him / Though Him colossians 1:16 / John 1:3WJ,
You just hurt me then – You lied deliberately – You lied to God.You deliberately took that quote out of context to try and deflect away from laughing at your buddy – Don't laugh WJ – This shows you are a dishonest person (didn't we know it already)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2010,08:47) NH Does that mean you will throw that verse out like Matt 28:19?
WJ
No, it means that you study the whole word and put verses into context of truth as it is presented in scripture.We know overwhelmingly that there is one God and Paul teaches us that there is one God the Father, and we know that the only true God sent Jesus.
It is pointless to try and change the truth of God to a lie WJ and wise men do well to avoid your doctrine.
Further more.
The actual verse under scrutiny DOES NOT MENTION ANY specific House or builder. It is a SIMPLE comparison. Jesus is more worthy than Moses as the builder of A HOUSE is More worthy than the house that he built.
It could just as easy have read: Jesus is more worthy than Moses as the Potter is more worthy than the pot that he made;
or
…as the Cook is more worthy than the food that he cooked.
or
…as the Giver is more worthy than the one that is given.
or
…the winner of the race is more worthy than the one who comes second, third, fourth… just simply took part.
or
…the honest man who claims to know God is more worthy than the dishonest man who thinks he can lie to get himself out off a spot and not be SPOTTED himself!In a rare moment of necessary human comfort and reassurance, I will say: Thank you, t8
(I am LUKY that you are ONLY-ONE-TO-KNOW-ME)((Tell me if you geddit?))
JustAskin said:
Quote One is the comparison of Jesus to Moses and the other is qualifying that even though Jesus built the House -it is God who built EVERYTHING.
JA,First, you are contradicting yourself. You say that it is Jesus who built the house but it is God who builds EVERYTHING. But if Jesus built the house and He is not God, then God does not build EVERYTHING because Jesus built the house.
Second, Verse 5 says that it is the Son's “OWN HOUSE.”
Third, this thread is about the Arain assertion that Jesus is a savior like Moses and therefore comparable to Moses. But Moses was not a savior at all. In Numbers 20:16 Moses himself CLEARLY credited the Messenger of Jehovah for saving the people out of Egypt. The Messenger was Christ (1 Cor. 10). Moses included himself as one of the people the Messenger saved. This means that Moses was not Israel's savior and there can be no comparison between Moses and Jesus. Moses was in the company of the saved.
the Roo
Quote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,18:58) WJ,
You just hurt me then – You lied deliberately – You lied to God.You deliberately took that quote out of context to try and deflect away from laughing at your buddy – Don't laugh WJ – This shows you are a dishonest person (didn't we know it already)
JANo I gave you the whole quote and it still says the same thing.
Jack said….
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 05 2010,03:49) It says that Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder. “The builder is God.” The implication is CLEAR!
You try again.
Kangaroo Jack
Then the very next post is yours which reads (emphasis Mine)…Quote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,04:04) KJ,
“The Builder is Jesus.
The owner of that which the builder built is his Father, God.If you are a builder and someone employs you to build a house for them, gives you the plans(the Word) and the Cash (power and authority) to 'make it happen', do you then claim that the house is YOURS when it is finished,…or do you 'hand it over to he that commissioned you'?
So your analogy is the builder “IS Jesus” but then you say the Father is the Owner.
God built the house, but wait, Jesus is the builder, Hello! Does it ring a bell yet?
Then in another post you paraphrase…
Quote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,14:54) Lets look at that again with some paraphrasing:
“[Jesus is] counted worthy of more glory than Moses inasmuch as the [God who built] the house is counted worthy of more glory than the house.”
This is your paraphrase and a distortion of the text.What is the House? It is the Body of Christ, it is his house, is it not?
The builder is Jesus because Jesus is God! You were only trying to twist Jacks words!
BTW, Jesus is the “Owner” for all things were made by him and for him! Col 1:16
Haven't you figured it out by now that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One God?
You seem to be a smart man JA, tell me what difference does it make if the Father did all things by or through Jesus or if Jesus did all things by or through the Father?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ June 05 2010,19:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2010,08:47) NH Does that mean you will throw that verse out like Matt 28:19?
WJ
No, it means that you study the whole word and put verses into context of truth as it is presented in scripture.We know overwhelmingly that there is one God and Paul teaches us that there is one God the Father, and we know that the only true God sent Jesus.
It is pointless to try and change the truth of God to a lie WJ and wise men do well to avoid your doctrine.
t8You say this but it seems the only scripture you know is 1 Cor 8:6 and you quote that in a biased way unless you believe the Father is not also the “One Lord”.
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2010,23:58) Hi WJ,
Is there a way of rationalising 1 Cor 8 out of existence?
NHYou mean like Matt 28:19?
WJ
Hi WJ,
You have not found one verse that says god is trinity yet base your faith on that premise?
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
Go backWJ,
Your desire to discredit and cause confusion has distorted your noodle brain.
There are several things going on in what I write and you have deliberately distorted what i wrote because it showed Jack to be wrong.
You laughed at me thinking it was ME that was wrong and now you see that you were wrong you are wishywashying trying to muddy the waters and cover your ignorance.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 20 2009,05:16) Hebrews 3:1-6: 1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Verse 3 says that the glory of Christ is the glory of the builder. Verse 4 says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God or He receives equal glory with God.
thinker
This is a powerful text for Yeshua's deity. I remember using it in a discussion with a unitarian who held that Christ was a the culmination of a sucession of prophets. He was the greatest of them though still merely a man. But Hebrews 3:1-6 vaporises that idea. The contrast between Moses and Yeshua could not be more emphatic. According to the Hebrew's writer Yeshua is as equivalent to Moses as a builder is to a house. And the builder of all things is……God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2010,15:52) Quote (t8 @ June 05 2010,19:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2010,08:47) NH Does that mean you will throw that verse out like Matt 28:19?
WJ
No, it means that you study the whole word and put verses into context of truth as it is presented in scripture.We know overwhelmingly that there is one God and Paul teaches us that there is one God the Father, and we know that the only true God sent Jesus.
It is pointless to try and change the truth of God to a lie WJ and wise men do well to avoid your doctrine.
t8You say this but it seems the only scripture you know is 1 Cor 8:6 and you quote that in a biased way unless you believe the Father is not also the “One Lord”.
WJ
WJ, you just demonstrate your ignorance about LORD, Lord, and lord.Just as there is one English word 'love' that translates to many Greek words, LORD, Lord, and lord is how translators differentiate the word. You seem to be unable to know this and think one word means the same for all.
You need to dig deeper if you are to be a serious student and teacher of God's word.
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