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Quote (Paladin @ July 23 2009,09:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 23 2009,13:20) Hi PD Quote (Paladin @ July 22 2009,18:44)
Like I have pointed out to you three times now, thinker, the word used in I Cor 15 is PASSIVE, not ACTIVE. If Christ subjects himself, it will be active. HE Submits.If God subjects him, it will be PASSIVE on Christ's part, ACTIVE on God's part. The word-form is PASSIVE, which shows Jesus NOT subjecting himself, NOT voluntary, NOT self-administered. Sorry to burst your bubble.
All that rhetoric of yours about law 101 and voluntary is just that, rhetoric. It is NOT scripture.
Well then if what you say is true, then nobody willingly or voluntarily submits to the Father. We are all just a bunch of robots serving a brutal dictator!Therefore as the church is subject (hypotassō) unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Eph 5:24
Servants, be subject (hypotassō) to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject (hypotassō) to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 5:5
The word-form here is passive also, which according to you means they are not doing the submitting willingly or voluntarily!
If you read the context of 1 Cor 15 you will see that Jesus truly does subject himself to the Father, for instance when it says…
Then cometh the end, “when he (Jesus) shall have delivered (paradidōmi, word-form active) up the kingdom to God, even the Father“; when he (Jesus) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 1 24:24, 25
The very fact that Jesus will at the end be subject to the Father, itself implies that he is not subject to the Father now!
Why? It is because Jesus has absolutely all authority and power. Mt 11:27, 28:18, Luke 10:22, John 3:35, John 13:3,
In fact by him all things consist, (Col 1:16, 17) and all things are upheld by the Word of his power, Heb 1:3
Think of the magnitude of what that means. Jesus has infinite power holding together the very elements of the creation itself.
And the beautiful thing is the reason Jesus is giving back the Kingdom to the Father is so that God will be all in all.
When Jesus has fulfilled his mission as mediator of the creation there will no longer be a need for mediation. That is why God will be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all, since there is no other way to God and since if one has Jesus he has God! 1 John 2:23, 1 John 5:12, 1 John 5:20, 2 John 1:9
For the subjection of Jesus does not mean that Jesus will not have authority or power, as we see in Rev 5:13, 7:17, 22:1, which shows the Lamb sitting in the throne with the Father! The following prophesies bear out that Jesus reigns forever in his Kingdom.
“Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end“. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:7
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. “His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Dan 7:14
These prophesies clearly reveal that the Kindom of Jesus is his to rule forever and ever!
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8
WJ
If you will care to explain how it is several people can submit themselves to each other, without being subjected by each other. It iwll be interesting.The KJV reads “humbles yourselves” which means it is more than one person, and one person cannot humble “selves” passively. Persons who are humbled by the reality of God, qualify for inclusion in this practice. It is a passive acceptance of the humiliation all Christians experience when they submit to the calling and election of God.
Hi PDLikewise, ye younger, “submit (hypotassō-Passive) yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject (hypotassō-passive) one to another“, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 1 Peter 5:5
“Submitting (hypotassō-passive) yourselves one to another” in the fear of God. Eph 5:21
Is it possible that more than one can submit to one another?
I think so!
The problem that most have with scriptures showing the subjection of the Son to the Father is the assumption that some how that makes the Son less in nature than the Father, which is pure fallacy.
It is also a bad assumption that because Jesus is a declared Son that some how that means the ontological nature of the Son in Spirit is less than the Father. In the natural a Father may be greater than his Son but in no way is he more human than his Son.
The relationship between The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit is based on particular roles that the Father, Jesus and the Spirit carry out though their ontology is identical.
Therefore it is possible for them to be submitted to one another depending on the roles they are carrying out.
For example the relationship between Jesus and the Holy Spirit is one of subservience depending on their roles.
Scriptures tell us that Jesus had the Spirit without measure. John 3:34
So we read…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw “the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him“: And lo “a voice from heaven, saying“, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. . Mt 3:16,17
Here we see the three, The Father speaking from heaven, the Holy Spirit who is invisible, descending from heaven and taking on the form of a dove, and the Son, Jesus who is the recipient of the Words from the Father and the Holy Spirit sitting on him.
Then in the next verse we read…
“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit” into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Mt 4:1
Here we see the relationship Jesus has with the Holy Spirit is one of subservience.
But then we read…
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: “for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak“: and he will shew you things to come. “He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew unto you“. All things that the Father hath are
mine: “therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew unto you. John 13:12, 13So now we see after his Glorification that the relationship Jesus has with the Holy Spirit is reversed and the Holy Spirit is subservient to Jesus who is now the sender, giver, and Baptizer of the Holy Spirit. John 7:37-39, John 16:7 Matt 3:11, Mk 1:8
Wow, that should turn some heads especially those who think Jesus is playing the role of a man in the flesh now and that some how we have to see him that way to follow him!
Jesus is no longer in the flesh for no flesh can inherit the Kingdom of God. Jesus body is in an incorruptible, Glorified state that is not subject to the passions of the flesh any longer, and in fact the fullness of Deity is settled down in that body.
His role has changed from servant to King of Kings and Lord of Lords who is over everything in the universe including the Spirit of God that proceeds from him.
This is why the Apostles called him God, for truly he is God, and in fact is my Great God and Saviour, one with the Father and the Spirit.
Blessings WJ
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote So now we see after his Glorification that the relationship Jesus has with the Holy Spirit is reversed and the Holy Spirit is subservient to Jesus who is now the sender, giver, and Baptizer of the Holy Spirit. John 7:37-39, John 16:7 Matt 3:11, Mk 1:8 WJ,
Yes indeed! There was a change in roles that took place when Jesus was exalted. But anti-trinitarians speak only of the historical Jesus who was a servant. It is difficult to get the anti-trinitarian to talk about the exalted Jesus who is now King of kings and Lord of lords.WorshippingJesus said:
Quote His role has changed from servant to King of Kings and Lord of Lords who is over everything in the universe including the Spirit of God that proceeds from him. Amen!
thinker
Hi TT,
Historical Jesus?
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.There is no God of several parts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2009,07:23) Hi TT,
Historical Jesus?
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.There is no God of several parts
So Jesus is unchangeable like God? Only God is unchangeable Nick?thinker
Hi TT,
Why would you argue with Jesus that he is not the Son of God and the Lord and rather appoint him as God?God was in him.
Quote (thethinker @ July 23 2009,20:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2009,07:23) Hi TT,
Historical Jesus?
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.There is no God of several parts
So Jesus is unchangeable like God? Only God is unchangeable Nick?thinker
Hi Jack
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
For someone that calls Jesus LORD relying on weak human logic to uphold your doctrines seems odd.Quote (thethinker @ July 24 2009,05:45) Quote It is difficult to get the anti-trinitarian to talk about the exalted Jesus who is now King of kings and Lord of lords. Actually I think it is hard to get Christians to talk about ANYTHING with trinitarians, because it is an exercise in futility.
Watch and see my demonstration.
Gen 17:1
God establishes his identity for Abraham, as Moses recorded;
“And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Jehovah [the LORD] appeared to Abram, and said unto him, egw eimi o` theos sou ; walk before me, and be thou perfect.”[Gen 17:1]Egw is first-person-singular personal pronoun “I”
eimi is first-person-singular verb “am”And Abraham is addressed as a singular-person entity.
sou is second person-singular pronoun “you”Jehovah establishes himself to be a first-singular-person identity.
Exo 3:14
A “being” who used “first-person-singular” pronouns to describe himself in Exo 3:14 –I…….. egw = nominative singular pronoun
am….. eimi = indicative present active 1st person s.
the….. o` = nominative masculine s. definite article
being..wn = participle nominative present active masc. s.God asserts he is a single-person being.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. [Heb 13:8]
Adam was created [Gen 2:7], and from his side a rib was taken [Gen 2:21] and from it a woman was made [Gen 2:22].
The offspring of the creature man is called the seed of man. [Gen 4:25]
All descendants of Adam and of Eve are offspring of a created being, thus are themselves creatures. [Gen 1:21,24]
Moses, a Hebrew and child of Abraham, said a prophet will be raised that is of their brethren, thus from among fellow creatures. He further stated that this created prophet will be given words that are not his own, but God's who will command of him what to speak. [Deu 18:15,18]
Jesus applied this prophecy to himself “I do nothing of myself; but as my father hath taught me I speak these things.” [John 7:17]
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the father which sent me, he gave me a commandment what I should say and what I should speak.” [John 8:28]
(John 12:49] Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the father said unto me, so I speak. [John 12:50]
Jesus describes himself as “Now ye seek to kill ME, a anthrwpos [MAN] that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.” [John 8:40]
God ordained A MAN to judge the world: “Because he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness BY THAT aneer [MAN] WHOM HE HATH ORDAINED; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead.” [Acts 17:31]
And who is this MAN whom God raised from the dead? “Jesus of Nazareth, A aneer [MAN] approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you as ye yourselves also know; him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain; whom God hath raised up” [Acts 2:22-24] This Jesus hath God raised up whereof we all are witnesses. [Acts 2:32]
God did not stop with raising this creature from the dead – “Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made this same Jesus (a MAN) whom ye crucified, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST.” [aCTS 2:36]
Jesus, the creature, the seed of the woman, seed of Abraham, seed of David, a MAN, was raised from the dead, and raised to sit at God's right hand. That this is according to prophecy is evident. “Let thy hand be upon the MAN of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.” [Psa 80:17]
“Behold MY SERVANT shall deal prudently, he shall be extolled and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]
“Awake o sword…against THE andra [MAN] that is my fellow…” [Zec 13:7]
Jesus said unto him thou hast said; nevertheless I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the son of anthrwpos [MAN] sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.” [Mat 26:64] and “Hereafter shall the son of anthrwpos [MAN] sit on the right hand of the power of God.” [Luke 22:69]
So if you indeed worship Jesus, you worship a creature, and by trinitarians standards, BLASPHEMY.
Messiah is to be the seed of the woman. [Gen 3:15]
Jesus was “made of a woman” [Gal 4:4]Messiah is to be the spermati [seed] of Abraham.[Gen 9:9]
Jesus is the spermati [seed] of Abraham [Gal 3:16]Messiah is to be the seed of David. [Psalm 132:11]
Jesus is the seed of David. [Acts 2:30-32][Rom 1:3][John 7:42]When Jesus and the Father are together, they are “ouk monos” [John 16:32]
El Jehovah [Isa 42:5] “monos” [Isa 44:24] created the world.
Jesus was involved in the “New Creation” not the original.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.There is no trinity.
Paladin said:
Quote Actually I think it is hard to get Christians to talk about ANYTHING with trinitarians, because it is an exercise in futility. Then why are you here?
Paladin said:
Quote Egw is first-person-singular personal pronoun “I”
eimi is first-person-singular verb “am”We have been over this before. Jesus used the exact same Greek construction when speaking of Himself,
Quote Before Abraham was I AM (John 8:58) Paladin said:
Quote There is no trinity. Jesus replies:
Quote Before Abraham was I AM (John 8:58) Your posts are getting too long again and you're not contributing anything new. Just the same old worn out arguments. Btw, you have no credibility to comment on Greek grammar because you deny that the Greek has a past tense verb. No credibility whatsoever. So save yourself some embarassment and just stick to scripture.
Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is counted worthy of EQUAL glory with God. No degree in rocket science is needed to comprehend this. Anti-trinitarians just don't like talking about the exalted Jesus. The whole subject throws a wrench in their theological works.
thinker
Quote (Paladin @ July 24 2009,09:21) Quote (thethinker @ July 24 2009,05:45) Quote It is difficult to get the anti-trinitarian to talk about the exalted Jesus who is now King of kings and Lord of lords. Actually I think it is hard to get Christians to talk about ANYTHING with trinitarians, because it is an exercise in futility.
Watch and see my demonstration.
Gen 17:1
God establishes his identity for Abraham, as Moses recorded;
“And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Jehovah [the LORD] appeared to Abram, and said unto him, egw eimi o` theos sou ; walk before me, and be thou perfect.”[Gen 17:1]Egw is first-person-singular personal pronoun “I”
eimi is first-person-singular verb “am”And Abraham is addressed as a singular-person entity.
sou is second person-singular pronoun “you”Jehovah establishes himself to be a first-singular-person identity.
Exo 3:14
A “being” who used “first-person-singular” pronouns to describe himself in Exo 3:14 –I…….. egw = nominative singular pronoun
am….. eimi = indicative present active 1st person s.
the….. o` = nominative masculine s. definite article
being..wn = participle nominative present active masc. s.God asserts he is a single-person being.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. [Heb 13:8]
Adam was created [Gen 2:7], and from his side a rib was taken [Gen 2:21] and from it a woman was made [Gen 2:22].
The offspring of the creature man is called the seed of man. [Gen 4:25]
All descendants of Adam and of Eve are offspring of a created being, thus are themselves creatures. [Gen 1:21,24]
Moses, a Hebrew and child of Abraham, said a prophet will be raised that is of their brethren, thus from among fellow creatures. He further stated that this created prophet will be given words that are not his own, but God's who will command of him what to speak. [Deu 18:15,18]
Jesus applied this prophecy to himself “I do nothing of myself; but as my father hath taught me I speak these things.” [John 7:17]
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the father which sent me, he gave me a commandment what I should say and what I should speak.” [John 8:28]
(John 12:49] Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the father said unto me, so I speak. [John 12:50]Jesus describes himself as “Now ye seek to kill ME, a anthrwpos [MAN] that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.” [John 8:40]
God ordained A MAN to judge the world: “Because he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness BY THAT aneer [MAN] WHOM HE HATH ORDAINED; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead.” [Acts 17:31]
And who is this MAN whom God raised from the dead? “Jesus of Nazareth, A aneer [MAN] approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you as ye yourselves also know; him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain; whom God hath raised up” [Acts 2:22-24] This Jesus hath God raised up whereof we all are witnesses. [Acts 2:32]
God did not stop with raising this creature from the dead – “Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made this same Jesus (a MAN) whom ye crucified, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST.” [aCTS 2:36]
Jesus, the creature, the seed of the woman, seed of Abraham, seed of David, a MAN, was raised from the dead, and raised to sit at God's right hand. That this is according to prophecy is evident. “Let thy hand be upon the MAN of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.” [Psa 80:17]
“Behold MY SERVANT shall deal prudently, he shall be extolled and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]
“Awake o sword…against THE andra [MAN] that is my fellow…” [Zec 13:7]
Jesus said unto him thou hast said; nevertheless I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the son of anthrwpos [MAN] sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.” [Mat 26:64] and “Hereafter shall the son of anthrwpos [MAN] sit on the right hand of the power of God.” [Luke 22:69]
So if you indeed worship Jesus, you worship a creature, and by trinitarians standards, BLASPHEMY.
Messiah is to be the seed of the woman. [Gen 3:15]
Jesus was “made of a woman” [Gal 4:4]Messiah is to be the spermati [seed] of Abraham.[Gen 9:9]
Jesus is the spermati [seed] of Abraham [Gal 3:16]Messiah is to be the seed of David. [Psalm 132:11]
Jesus is the seed of David. [Acts 2:30-32][Rom 1:3][John 7:42]When Jesus and the Father are together, they are “ouk monos” [John 16:32]
El Jehovah [Isa 42:5] “monos” [Isa 44:24] created the world.
Jesus was involved in the “New Creation” not the original.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.There is no trinity.
Hi PDReading your post is like looking through a long pipe that is lined with only scriptures that support your view without taking all scriptures into account.
For example…
You quoted…
Quote (Paladin @ July 24 2009,09:21) Jesus applied this prophecy to himself “I do nothing of myself; but as my father hath taught me I speak these things.” [John 7:17]
Your view of this scripture like all Arians is that Jesus is some kind of a puppet that could not do anything by himself but the Father just pulled a string and Jesus jumped.But the truth is Jesus is saying he doesn't do anything without the Father.
To prove this true Jesus also says…
But Jesus answered them, “My Father worketh hitherto, AND I WORK”. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, “but what he seeth the Father do”: “for what things soever he doeth, THESE ALSO DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE”. John 5:17-19
Can you see that PD? Jesus clearly states whatever he sees the Father do he does likewise. Imagine a mere man making such a statement, It would be blasphemy to the Hebrew if a Prophet would make such a claim of equality with YHWH. In fact that is why they wanted to stone him wasn’t it?
Somehow you think that grabbing some selective scriptures that proves that Jesus was at one time in the flesh and a servant to the Father disproves the Trinity. But you deny the scriptural proof that Jesus is God.
Then you think that your statement….
Quote (Paladin @ July 24 2009,09:21) There is no trinity.
Sums it all up and settles it.Watch this…
Unitarianism is not biblical because it denies Jesus pre-existed and that he came in the flesh.
Aryanism and Unitarianism is not Biblical because it denies that Jesus is God.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 24 2009,16:29) Quote (thethinker @ July 23 2009,20:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2009,07:23) Hi TT,
Historical Jesus?
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.There is no God of several parts
So Jesus is unchangeable like God? Only God is unchangeable Nick?thinker
Hi JackBlessings WJ
I concur.Hi S and welcome.
Why would you argue with Scripture?
This is what it says of the one who tells us he is the SON of God.” Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever..”
Scripture is sacred and inspired but you?
thethinker,July wrote:[/quote]
Paladin said:Quote Actually I think it is hard to get Christians to talk about ANYTHING with trinitarians, because it is an exercise in futility. (thinker) Then why are you here?
I still believe in miracles.
Paladin said:
Quote Egw is first-person-singular personal pronoun “I” eimi is first-person-singular verb “am” (thinker) We have been over this before. Jesus used the exact same Greek construction when speaking of Himself,
Right, so Jesus is also a first-person-singular being. What's your point? Peter said the same thing, as also did Paul and James, and I imagine every human since Adam. They all said “I am” about SOMETHING.
Paladin said:
Quote There is no trinity. Jesus replies:
Before Abraham was I AM (John 8:58)
Right. Jesus did not say “Before Abraham was “WE WERE.”
(thinker)
Quote Your posts are getting too long again and you're not contributing anything new. Just the same old worn out arguments. Btw, you have no credibility to comment on Greek grammar because you deny that the Greek has a past tense verb. No credibility whatsoever. So save yourself some embarassment and just stick to scripture. Save YOURSELF some embarrassment. It was YOU who said the Greek aorist is past tense, and you didn't even know of the aorist future until I taught you about it. Get real.
And now, for another in a catelog of examples that show one who cannot read.
(thinker)
Quote Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is counted worthy of EQUAL glory with God. Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Now, leaving the copy clean, let's look at another copy to see what is being said.
Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For [Christ Jesus] {this One} has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He [Christ Jesus]{who built the house} has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over HIS OWN HOUSE, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
It says God created all things, BUT Christ built his own house.
God has the glory of God, but Christ the housebuilder has the glory of the housebuilder.(thinker)
Quote Anti-trinitarians just don't like talking about the exalted Jesus. (thinker)
Your posts are getting too long again
Huh!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2009,08:07) Hi S and welcome.
Why would you argue with Scripture?
This is what it says of the one who tells us he is the SON of God.” Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever..”
Scripture is sacred and inspired but you?
Then He is God!thinker
Paladin said:
Quote Right, so Jesus is also a first-person-singular being. What's your point? Peter said the same thing, as also did Paul and James, and I imagine every human since Adam. They all said “I am” about SOMETHING. Don't be coy. Jesus clearly said that He pre-existed Abraham “Before Abraham was I AM.”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,11:37) Paladin said: Quote Right, so Jesus is also a first-person-singular being. What's your point? Peter said the same thing, as also did Paul and James, and I imagine every human since Adam. They all said “I am” about SOMETHING. Don't be coy. Jesus clearly said that He pre-existed Abraham “Before Abraham was I AM.”
thinker
Assuming you are correct how does pre-existing Abraham make someone God is Satan “God” to you as well and how about every single angel and demon are they all your God?Why did Jesus even bother saying he was the SON of GOD?
Why not say” I am of the collective of God and we decided for me to come as a sacrifice to the men of earth”?
Quote (datguy @ July 25 2009,12:22) HI TT, is it that you think Lord means God? I hope that is not the case.
Women of the bible commonly refer to men as their Lord.
Christ being a son over his own house was made Lord and Christ by God. Acts 2:36..Heb 3:6
dg,
The term “Lord” in reference to Christ means “God.” And i find it interesting that you would invoke Hebrews 3:6 when verses 3-4 says that Jesus receives EQUAL glory wuith God,Quote For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Please note that it says that Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and that the builder is God.
Premise 1: Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder
Premise 2: The builder is God
Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus is counted to have EQUAL glory with God.Why did you not invoke verses 3-4 as well?
thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote Assuming you are correct how does pre-existing Abraham make someone God is Satan “God” to you as well and how about every single angel and demon are they all your God? Why did Jesus even bother saying he was the SON of GOD?
Why not say” I am of the collective of God and we decided for me to come as a sacrifice to the men of earth”?
Jesus said “I AM” and that if men don't believe it they're damned (John 8:24, 28).
It's all about context dude!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,19:14) Quote (datguy @ July 25 2009,12:22) HI TT, is it that you think Lord means God? I hope that is not the case.
Women of the bible commonly refer to men as their Lord.
Christ being a son over his own house was made Lord and Christ by God. Acts 2:36..Heb 3:6
dg,
The term “Lord” in reference to Christ means “God.” And i find it interesting that you would invoke Hebrews 3:6 when verses 3-4 says that Jesus receives EQUAL glory wuith God,Quote For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Please note that it says that Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and that the builder is God.
Premise 1: Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder
Premise 2: The builder is God
Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus is counted to have EQUAL glory with God.Why did you not invoke verses 3-4 as well?
thinker
So in your focus of mental acument, God “made resurrected Jesus both God and Christ.” [Acts 2:36]Since when does “Lord” Mean “God?”
Where is it so defined in scripture?
So Jehovah is the God God?
Quote (Paladin @ July 26 2009,04:52) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,19:14) Quote (datguy @ July 25 2009,12:22) HI TT, is it that you think Lord means God? I hope that is not the case.
Women of the bible commonly refer to men as their Lord.
Christ being a son over his own house was made Lord and Christ by God. Acts 2:36..Heb 3:6
dg,
The term “Lord” in reference to Christ means “God.” And i find it interesting that you would invoke Hebrews 3:6 when verses 3-4 says that Jesus receives EQUAL glory wuith God,Quote For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Please note that it says that Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and that the builder is God.
Premise 1: Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder
Premise 2: The builder is God
Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus is counted to have EQUAL glory with God.Why did you not invoke verses 3-4 as well?
thinker
So in your focus of mental acument, God “made resurrected Jesus both God and Christ.” [Acts 2:36]Since when does “Lord” Mean “God?”
Where is it so defined in scripture?
So Jehovah is the God God?
Paladin said:Quote So in your focus of mental acument, God “made resurrected Jesus both God and Christ.” [Acts 2:36] Since when does “Lord” Mean “God?”
Where is it so defined in scripture?
You changed what I said. I did NOT say that “Lord” means God. I said “In reference to Jesus Lord means God.”
Quote And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God.” Thomas was addressing Jesus and not the Father.
Quote My Adonai is at Your right hand (Psalm 110:5) Verse 1 says that Messiah is “adown” or Lord. Verse 5 identifies Him as “adonai” which is the proper name for God. Therefore, in reference to Christ the title Lord means God. Unlees you want me to believe that we have two Lords.
Back to Hebrews 3:3
Premise 1: Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder
Premise 2: The builder is God
Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus is counted to have EQUAL glory with God.thinker
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