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Quote (david @ Oct. 06 2005,01:35) If we're told that a + b = c,
and told what a and b is, do we have to directly be told what c is?We are told why those special gifts were given.
We know that they fulfilled their purpose.
We are told they would cease.david.
ps.
I'm not great at math. If I'm wrong, let me know.
Hi david,
Did God ever say the gifts only have a temporary purpose and are now withdrawn? Or have men frustrated the plan of God through forming their own powerless empty religion?Quote (OneSpirit @ Oct. 05 2005,19:59) Nick wrote: Quote Hi One Spirit,
What does “having the Spirit” mean to you in your experience?Your question misses the point. “My experience” is not scripture. “My experience” could be nothing more than self-deception. What is more important is what scripture says about what “having the Spirit” means. If “my experience” lines up with that, then I may have something to share.
Nick quoted:
Quote Jn 20.22
“He breathed on them and said ' Receive the Holy Spirit..”I am glad that you picked out this verse. It is a good starting point for understanding the Spirit. The word used for “spirit” in this verse literally means “breath”, (in both the Hebrew and Greek).
Quote Lexicon Results for ruwach (Strong's 07307)
Hebrew for 07307
Pronunciation Guide
ruwach {roo'-akh}TWOT Reference Root Word
TWOT – 2131a from 07306
Part of Speech
n f
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) wind, breath, mind, spirita) breath
b) wind
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
f) spirit
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
So the act of “breathing” on the disciples is highly symbolic in regards to receiving the Spirit. (See Job 33:4 for more on this aspect of the Spirit.) Now look at Job 32:8.
Quote Job 32:
8 But it is the spirit in a man,
the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.Here you see a strong association with breath of the Almighty in man and the mind of a man. Paul makes this same association between the Spirit of YHWH and the Mind of YHWH. Compare Isaiah 40:13 to Romans 11:34:
Quote Isaiah 40:13
Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?Romans 11:34
“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”At its very core, having the Spirit of YHWH is about having the Mind of YHWH taking over our own. Take a quick look at what people who are filled with the Spirit do:
Quote Acts 2:
4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.Skipping past the miracle to the meat…
Quote
Acts 2:
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.”
…Acts 2:
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.The most important part of being filled with the Spirit is the message that was brought by Peter through a direct connection to the Mind of YHWH.
More examples:
Quote Acts 4:
8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! …”Again, Peter is filled with the Spirit before delivering an important message.
Quote Acts 4:
31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.Same model here as well.
Of course, there are other aspects to the Spirit, but the most important part of “having the Spirit” is having the Truth from the Mind of YHWH.
That is why I ask you to show us your doctrine from scripture Nick, because if your teaching does not derive from scripture, then you do not “have the Spirit”, no matter how many times you have “spoken in tongues”.
Hi One Spirit,
Thank you for the thoughtful post which I had missed.So we in Adam were created from the breath of Yahweh. That did not fill us with the Spirit of God. The breath of Yahweh in the breath of Yeshua gave the apostles the Spirit.
Neither can we say “I am a bold speaker and thus I have the Spirit of God” can we? That argument would sit well with our friend David. You cannot separate the works of God done in the Spirit from the ability to speak boldly as that is artificial. The gift Peter used was his empowerment as an apostle.
Yes we can have the nature of Christ birthed into us and that includes the mind of Christ. But we cannot say “I understand the bible and thus I have the Spirit. Such a view is subjective and inclined to self deception.
What you highlight is important but not exclusive. Nowhere does it say the Spirit will be given but only in understanding and boldness and all other powers are counterfeit. Neither does it say all professing christians have the Holy Spirit any more than it says any denomination is so blessed.
I still ask you how you know you have the Spirit?
Nick wrote:
Quote What you highlight is important but not exclusive. Nowhere does it say the Spirit will be given but only in understanding and boldness and all other powers are counterfeit. Neither does it say all professing christians have the Holy Spirit any more than it says any denomination is so blessed. I already wrote:
Quote Of course, there are other aspects to the Spirit, but the most important part of “having the Spirit” is having the Truth from the Mind of YHWH. However, the miracle work is not the “meat”; the “meat” is in the message.
Quote Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.You are looking for miracles, (much like the Pharisees, as you point out). I am looking for the message.
Nick wrote:
Quote I still ask you how you know you have the Spirit? I know, because my message lines up with scripture. Truth has not changed.
Now, I ask you, how do you know that you have the Spirit? (Are you looking for signs that have been counterfeited throughout the ages?)
Quote (OneSpirit @ Oct. 06 2005,14:52) Nick wrote: Quote What you highlight is important but not exclusive. Nowhere does it say the Spirit will be given but only in understanding and boldness and all other powers are counterfeit. Neither does it say all professing christians have the Holy Spirit any more than it says any denomination is so blessed. I already wrote:
Quote Of course, there are other aspects to the Spirit, but the most important part of “having the Spirit” is having the Truth from the Mind of YHWH. However, the miracle work is not the “meat”; the “meat” is in the message.
Quote Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.You are looking for miracles, (much like the Pharisees, as you point out). I am looking for the message.
Nick wrote:
Quote I still ask you how you know you have the Spirit? I know, because my message lines up with scripture. Truth has not changed.
Now, I ask you, how do you know that you have the Spirit? (Are you looking for signs that have been counterfeited throughout the ages?)
Hi One Spirit,
“I know I have the Holy Spirit because my message lines up with scripture”
How many thousands have we met that would make such a statement and yet few of them would agree about serious matters. Every denomination is based on the premise that they hold the truth in their hands.The Spirit is not divided.
I admire your confidence if that is all you can say.
I would hope you would seek the Spirit whose presence, according to scripture, is associated with powerful evidence.
Hi One Spirit,
I am not seeking to prove anything. I have tasted many of the powers from above but found my role in Christ which is as a simple signpost. I have shared some of my experiences which may offend your doctrinal stand, but if none share then none are challenged to taste and see that the Lord is good. You may say my experiences are counterfeit and I cannot argue, but I have had experiences that have strengthened my faith in the Word and the living reality of the Spirit. I have also learned in my earlier days that there are counterfeit powers too and found that only when the Spirit and the Word line up then you can be sure of your path.Quote Hi One Spirit,
“I know I have the Holy Spirit because my message lines up with scripture”
How many thousands have we met that would make such a statement and yet few of them would agree about serious matters. Every denomination is based on the premise that they hold the truth in their hands.The Spirit is not divided.
I admire your confidence if that is all you can say.
I would hope you would seek the Spirit whose presence, according to scripture, is associated with powerful evidence.
Nick,
You are right, many would say the same thing as I have:
“I know that I have the Holy Spirit because my message lines up with scripture.”
You are also right to say that not all are right. So how can we know who is right? By rightly dividing scripture. Isn't that the whole point of this forum?
As a JW, David has come here to tell us that the JW way is the right way. Well, how do you know where he is wrong? How do you know where he is right? By rightly dividing scripture. Eliyah has come to deliver a message to us that he is convicted down to his very core is Truth. Well how do we know if his message is true? By rightly dividing scripture.
You would not care if David, or Eliyah, or I claimed to speak in tongues or cast out demons if our messages didn't line up with Truth, would you?
Seek Truth first, and the power of the Almighty, (in some form, or another), will come with it. Seek after the power of the Almighty first, and you will not find Truth. (Acts 8:9-25)
Hi One Spirit,
I do agree.
But I would continue to make a plea that saved men would seek more from the Father as Jesus has encouraged us to do and not stand complacently convinced they need nothing more. We need the fountain of life flowing up within us to eternal life. Correct knowledge itself saves no one. We need to know we are desperately powerless and ignorant and need every help God can offer us lest we be deceived by that ignorance and lost.Quote (david @ Oct. 06 2005,01:35) If we're told that a + b = c,
and told what a and b is, do we have to directly be told what c is?We are told why those special gifts were given.
We know that they fulfilled their purpose.
We are told they would cease.david.
ps.
I'm not great at math. If I'm wrong, let me know.
Hi david,
I have been told that armadillos existed.
I have never seen an armadillo
Armadillos no longer exist.Hey Nick.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the armadillos. Simple logic however tells us that if we're told most of the equation, we can figure out the rest. For example, if God tells us to love our fellowman, do we have to be commanded not to kill people?Let's look at this one more time, shall we. This time, we'll look at some things we didn't the first time. I strongly encourage you and everyone to actually read what will follow.
As we know, the apostle Paul wrote: “Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge [attained by miraculous means], it will be done away with.” (1 Cor. 13:8)
These words prove that eventually the then existing miraculous gifts of the holy spirit would pass away. But when would this be?
We might first consider the purpose of these miraculous gifts. For many centuries, the Israelites, or Jews, were God’s name people, and what was acceptable to God in matters of worship centered around the temple at Jerusalem. That arrangement for worship was of divine origin. Moses, the human instrumentality through whom it was revealed, could point to his having God’s backing. For example, when sent by Jehovah back to Egypt to lead the nation of Israel out of slavery, Moses was empowered to perform three miraculous signs. (Ex. 4:1-9) How, then, could a change from this centuries-old manner of worship be verified as being from God? It required stupendous miracles to prove that—with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in the year 33 C.E.—a new way for rendering acceptable sacred service had opened up.
And, by miracles, the means of salvation revealed through Jesus Christ was authoritatively established as being of divine origin.
The Bible tells us:
“If the word spoken through angels [who were used in transmitting the Mosaic law] proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was VERIFIED FOR US BY THOSE WHO HEARD HIM, WHILE GOD JOINED IN BEARING WITNESS WITH SIGNS AS WELL AS PORTENTS AND VARIOUS POWERFUL WORKS AND WITH DISTRIBUTIONS OF HOLY SPIRIT according to his will?”—Heb. 2:2-4.
Were such miracles needed after Christ’s death? Yes, as long as the temple existed in Jerusalem and the requirements of the Mosaic law respecting worship could be carried out, there was a need for God to continue bearing witness that the old Jewish arrangement for sacred service had been replaced by the arrangement centering in Jesus Christ. Therefore, the Most High, through Christ Jesus and by means of holy spirit, gave special powers to his apostles and others.
However Nick, are miraculous gifts still necessary to establish that a change has taken place as regards worship. Even if the temple still existed at Jerusalem, no Jew could prove that he is of the Aaronic line and qualified to officiate at the sanctuary. Hence, the temple services that the Mosaic law outlined could not be carried out. Why not? Because that law prohibited non-Aaronites from engaging in priestly functions. (Num. 3:10; 18:7) That is why certain men who returned from Babylonian exile in the sixth century B.C.E. but who could not establish their descent from Aaron were debarred from serving as priests.—Ezra 2:61, 62.
So, with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in 70 C.E., the arrangement for worship centering at the temple came to its end, never to be restored according to the specific requirements of the Mosaic law. Miracles are simply not needed to prove that true worship is now no longer dependent on a literal temple at Jerusalem and that the Most High wants to be approached through Jesus Christ “with spirit and truth.”—John 4:23, 24; 14:6.
It is also noteworthy that the transmittal of the miraculous gifts of the spirit was accomplished in a way that indicated their TEMPORARY nature. The Scriptural indications are that the miraculous gifts were imparted either in the presence of the apostle Paul or that of one or more of the twelve apostles.—Acts 2:1, 4, 14; 10:44-46; 19:6.
A remarkable example of this involves the Samaritans, to whom Philip the evangelizer declared the “good news.” (Acts 8:4, 5) Philip was one of the seven men appointed by the apostles to oversee the distribution of food to needy widows. Viewed by the congregation at Jerusalem as a man “full of spirit and wisdom,” Philip was obviously a mature disciple of Jesus Christ. (Acts 6:1-6) He himself had been empowered by holy spirit to expel demons and to heal afflictions. (Acts 8:6, 7) Nevertheless, Philip could not impart the spirit with its miraculous gifts to others. It was necessary for the apostles Peter and John to come to Samaria to pray for these new disciples to “get holy spirit.”—Acts 8:14-17.
Of course, God’s spirit had already operated toward these Samaritans by means of Philip the evangelizer. What, then, did Peter and John accomplish? They prayed for the Samaritan disciples to have God’s spirit imparted to them. Special manifestations followed this. Seeing these manifestations, the former magician Simon offered money for the power to impart holy spirit as did the apostles. He said: “Give me also this authority, that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive holy spirit.”—Acts 8:18-24.
In view of the limitations in transmitting the gifts of the spirit, it logically follows that, with the death of the apostles and those who had been empowered through them to perform miracles, these gifts passed away, even as the apostle Paul said they would. Thereafter, however, true disciples of Jesus Christ could still be recognized. How? The Son of God provided the answer, saying: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:35) This love is a self-sacrificing love, including the willingness to die for one’s Christian brothers just as Christ voluntarily laid down his life for mankind.—John 13:34; 1 John 3:16.
What, then, does the combined evidence of Scripture and history reveal about the gifts of the spirit? The miraculous gifts ceased long ago. They fully accomplished their purpose in proving that the disciples of Christ made up the “Israel of God” and that they alone were engaging in divinely approved sacred service.—Gal. 6:16.
DAVID
Please read the above Nick.
In “Understanding the holy spirit,” Ramblinrose gave this reference:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/indwelli.htm
Some of it is as follows:
“”Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know partially and we prophesy partially; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to my childish ways (NSRV).”
This verse has been interpreted several different ways. “When the complete comes” has been translated as when the “perfect comes” in some other bibles. Zondervan’s Greek and English Interlinear Bible has it in the original Greek as: “but when the perfect thing comes.” The interpretations of this verse range in meaning. One interpretation suggests that tongues will cease “when the perfect comes.” The “perfect” being a reference to Jesus. I do not think that Paul would refer to Jesus as a thing. A quick look into the meaning of the Greek word “teleioo” that is translated as “complete” or “perfect” will help us in understanding this verse.
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words; teleioo – to bring to an end by completing or perfecting, is used (I) of “accomplishing” (see Finish, Fulfill); (II) of “bringing to completeness.”
Strong’s Greek Dictionary; teleioo – To complete, accomplish, consummate, consecrate, finish, fulfill, (make) perfect.
With these definitions we can better understand that the word “teleioo” is not a reference to Jesus, but as we shall see, a reference to the maturity of the body of Christ (the community of believers) which starts at 1 Corinthians (12:27). Paul is comparing the early church to a child. Its knowledge is limited like a child’s. He then compares the church’s adulthood to the day when it is mature. How is the body of Christ mature? There are two possibilities. The first is that in Paul’s day people would follow the truth of Christ because of the gifts of the Spirit that the first two generations displayed (these gifts were signs to confirm the message of Christ). This is referred to as “knowing partially.” People believed because of what they saw. In 1 Corinthians 12:31 he says that now he will show us an even better way to recognize the truth of Christ (an even better sign). This is the way of love (God’s love in us). Then Paul says that when it is accomplished, completed, made perfect, that the gifts will cease, “the partial will pass away.” To be mature for Paul means to know fully. 1 Corinthians 13:12:
“At present I know partially, then I shall know fully.”
To know fully the love of God that comes with the knowledge of the message of Christ (the proclamation of the kingdom of God and His Messiah), and for people to believe this message not because of the gifts of the Spirit, but because of the love that is witnessed among Christ’s followers. Love is a greater sign of confirmation than the gifts of the Spirit that will eventually cease. John 13:34-35 states:
“I give you a new commandment: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Matthew 5:44-48 is all about love for your neighbor and your enemies.
“But I say to you, love your enemies… For if you love those who love you…So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
To be perfect like our father is to be able to love like our Father. This is how Christ was made perfect and how we are to strive for perfection. Unconditional love.
John 17:23 speaks of being made perfect by the love of God in them.
“That they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”
The second view is that Paul is comparing the early church to a child. Its knowledge is limited like a child’s. He then compares the body of Christ reaching maturity in the knowledge of Christ and his message. Maturity in the sense that it will possess the entire truth, the entire Bible. Remember, there was of yet no New Testament for the churches to study, hence, the need for prophesying and the other gifts. What Paul is saying is that when the churches reach adulthood (possession of the Bible), when the truth is completed, finished, accomplished, that prophesying and tongues will cease.
Vine’ Expository Dictionary has a commentary on 1 Corinthians 13:8:
“There is no evidence of the continuance of this gift after apostolic times nor indeed in the later times of the Apostles themselves; this provides confirmation of the fulfillment in this way of 1 Corinthians 13:8, that this gift would cease in the churches, just as “prophecies” and “knowledge” in the sense of knowledge received by immediate supernatural power. The completion of the Holy Scriptures has provided the churches with all that is necessary for individual and collective guidance, instruction, and edification.”
Although both are possible, I think that the first interpretation is the correct one. It in agreement with the teachings of Christ, while the second one suggests that Paul knew that there would someday be a New Testament. There is no way of knowing if Paul knew that his letters and the writings of others would become the New Testament.
One trap that I hope the reader does not fall into, is to think that I am saying that God does not perform any miracles today. Miracles and the gifts of the Spirit are two entirely different things. I do believe God still does miracles today, but I think they are more on a personal level. They are not needed to confirm the gospel. That confirmation has already been given. “
david
Hi David,
The loss of the gifts coincides with the apostasy of the church. By the time 100 years had passed all sorts of heresies had become rampant and by 200 they had become orthodoxy.Any resemblance between traditional denominational churches now and that established by Christ is pure coincidence.The whore is the false church that has many daughters who masquerade as the body of Christ. Rebellious and defiantly so with no respect or Christ or the things of God it complacently lays claim to what it does not have -any relationship with God Himself.
So the powerlessness championed by some is fruit of that rebellion and a sorry state indeed. God has not changed. It is men who have excluded Him and His power from their activities.OK. Sure.
Let's start at the beginning then and take this very very slow.Why were those miraculous gifts given Nick? What does the Bible say?
Actually, let's slow down a bit and go back earlier.
What does the Bible tell us about why miracles are usually performed?–Most basic, they helped to establish or confirm the fact that a man was receiving power and support from God. (Ex 4:1-9)
–Both with Moses and Jesus people drew this correct conclusion. (Ex 4:30, 31; Joh 9:17, 31-33)
–Through Moses, God had promised a coming prophet. Jesus’ miracles helped observers to identify him as that one. (De 18:18; Joh 6:14)
–When Christianity was young, miracles worked in conjunction with the message to help individuals to see that God was behind Christianity and had turned from the earlier Jewish system of things. (READ Heb 2:3, 4)
–In time miraculous gifts present in the first century would pass away. –They were needed only during the infancy of the Christian congregation.—1Co 13:8-11.In reading the history of the Acts of Apostles, we see that Jehovah’s spirit was working mightily, speedily, forming congregations, getting Christianity firmly established. (Ac 4:4; chaps 13, 14, 16-19) In the few short years between 33 and 70 C.E., thousands of believers were gathered in many congregations from Babylon to Rome, and perhaps even farther west. (1Pe 5:13; Ro 1:1, 7; 15:24)
It is worthy of note that copies of the Scriptures then were few. Usually only the well-to-do possessed scrolls or books of any sort. In pagan lands there was no knowledge of the Bible or the God of the Bible, Jehovah. Virtually everything had to be done by word of mouth. There were no Bible commentaries, concordances, and encyclopedias readily at hand. So the miraculous gifts of special knowledge, wisdom, speaking in tongues, and discernment of inspired utterances were vital for the congregation then. (1Co 12:4-11, 27-31) But, as the apostle Paul wrote, when those things were no longer needed, they would pass away.Sorry, I went off on a tangent.
Nick,
1. In the Bible, why are miracles usually performed?
2. And more specifically, does the Bible give any indication as to why those miraculous gifts of the spirit were given in the first century?
dave.
No answer? That's ok.
I want to add this to this thread. Nick raised stated the following in another topic:
“Heb 2.4
“,God also testifying with them both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will”
So where does it state these gifts have been withdrawn?”NOWHERE IN THIS VERSE NICK. BUT I NEVER SAID THIS VERSE WAS SAYING THAT. What does this scripture say though?
HEBREWS 2:4
New Living Translation
and GOD VERIFIED THE MESSAGE BY signs and wonders and various miracles and by giving gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose to do so.Amplified Bible
[Besides this evidence] it was also established and plainly endorsed by GOD, WHO SHOWED HIS APPROVAL OF IT BY signs and wonders and various miraculous manifestations of [His] power and by imparting the gifts of the Holy Spirit [to the believers] according to His own will.New International Version
GOD ALSO TESTIFIED TO IT BY signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.Worldwide English
GOD ALSO PROVED THAT IT WAS THE TRUE WAY. He gave signs. He did things that surprised people. He did many things by his power. He gave the gifts of the Holy Spirit to people just as he wanted to.The Message Bible
All the while GOD WAS VALIDATING IT with gifts through the Holy Spirit, all sorts of signs and miracles, as he saw fit.Contemporary English Version
GOD HIMSELF SHOWED THAT HIS MESSAGE WAS TRUE BY working all kinds of powerful miracles and wonders. He also gave his Holy Spirit to anyone he chose to.And just to be sure we’ve covered it, let’s look at the 2 verses before:
HEBREWS 2:2-4
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through [our] Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”So, as various Bibles show, God used these “gifts of the holy spirit” to show his approval, to prove that it was the true way, to validate it, to show that his message was true.
Hence Nick, we are given a reason for these miraculous gifts–to verify and prove that God’s approval now rested on the followers of Jesus.
Nick, if the need to verify this ceases, would not the gifts cease too?1 CORINTHIANS 13:8
“Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.”Love has always been and will always be an essential part of pure worship. Not so with the gift of tongues. These gifts of the spirit accomplished two things:
1. As stated above, they verified that God’s favor had shifted to the Christians.
2. They helped the new Christian congregation grow from it’s infancy.David.
Hi david,
Funny God never said he would take them away.
But you are convinced and what can I say? It is a secure position for you because you can continue to say what you like about having the Spirit – but you will find out some day for sure.Quote (david @ Oct. 08 2005,08:24) No answer? That's ok. I want to add this to this thread. Nick raised stated the following in another topic:
“Heb 2.4
“,God also testifying with them both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will”
So where does it state these gifts have been withdrawn?”NOWHERE IN THIS VERSE NICK. BUT I NEVER SAID THIS VERSE WAS SAYING THAT. What does this scripture say though?
HEBREWS 2:4
New Living Translation
and GOD VERIFIED THE MESSAGE BY signs and wonders and various miracles and by giving gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose to do so.Amplified Bible
[Besides this evidence] it was also established and plainly endorsed by GOD, WHO SHOWED HIS APPROVAL OF IT BY signs and wonders and various miraculous manifestations of [His] power and by imparting the gifts of the Holy Spirit [to the believers] according to His own will.New International Version
GOD ALSO TESTIFIED TO IT BY signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.Worldwide English
GOD ALSO PROVED THAT IT WAS THE TRUE WAY. He gave signs. He did things that surprised people. He did many things by his power. He gave the gifts of the Holy Spirit to people just as he wanted to.The Message Bible
All the while GOD WAS VALIDATING IT with gifts through the Holy Spirit, all sorts of signs and miracles, as he saw fit.Contemporary English Version
GOD HIMSELF SHOWED THAT HIS MESSAGE WAS TRUE BY working all kinds of powerful miracles and wonders. He also gave his Holy Spirit to anyone he chose to.And just to be sure we’ve covered it, let’s look at the 2 verses before:
HEBREWS 2:2-4
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through [our] Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”So, as various Bibles show, God used these “gifts of the holy spirit” to show his approval, to prove that it was the true way, to validate it, to show that his message was true.
Hence Nick, we are given a reason for these miraculous gifts–to verify and prove that God’s approval now rested on the followers of Jesus.
Nick, if the need to verify this ceases, would not the gifts cease too?1 CORINTHIANS 13:8
“Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.”Love has always been and will always be an essential part of pure worship. Not so with the gift of tongues. These gifts of the spirit accomplished two things:
1. As stated above, they verified that God’s favor had shifted to the Christians.
2. They helped the new Christian congregation grow from it’s infancy.David.
Hi David,
Joel 2 says men will prophesy in the last days so the gifts remain till then.Hi,
Never have we needed the power of God's Spirit at work among us more than now. Where are the prophets and those with gifts to see the future and reveal our past as God knows us? Is anyone absolutely confident they see themselves with the mind of Christ? That is why the gifts were given to enable us who have been reborn into Christ to share the mind of Christ and help one another in our blind spots areas.Hi woutlaw,
1 cor 12-14 says a lot about tongues. I believe in them and believe they are for now and are not always intelligible as they can be angelic.Hi woutlaw,
All I would say is praise God you have been obedient to His demands.
I would say annoy God in prayer. He has promised the gift of the Spirit to you[Lk 11.8f, Acts 2.38-39]Do not accept no for an answer and expect yes.Seek wisdom too as He wants to give you far more that you know about.Hi W,
Tongues is as scriptural as any other matter discussed in the bible. Tongues and, and the other power manifestations of the Spirit, are not withdrawn as many would claim. The graces of the nature of Christ or fruit are given along with power from the Spirit. We are required to be transformed in the inner man to Christ by the Spirit of Christ. We do not say the Spirit of Christ is divided and the powers that Christ had also are no longer given. Yes, the gifts will be withdrawn. That is when the final days come and we are not quite there yet. Scripture says the opposite about the present time. We share the powers and the roles together making up the body of Christ[Eph 4.11f]Tongues were certainly a sign of God's actions in the time of Acts.[1cor 14.21, Mk 16]]
Paul was greatly blessed in tongues and wishes all had tongues.
Tongues are helpful because we do not know our needs.
Prayer in the Spirit is direct to God for those needs we do not realise.Men will come up with any excuse to justify what they see happening instead of going back to the Word to see why what has been promised does not seem to be being given. The fault is never God's. Man's apostasy and rebellion, his ignorance and false teaching and his doubts and faithlessness separate him from God's graces.
There are plenty of references to the use of such prayer in the Word apart from 1Cor 12-14e.g
Eph 6.18
Rom 8.23-28
Jude 20” but earnestly desire the greater gifts”
I will add my prayers to yours for you to share this blessing.
Mr. Hassan you are a gentlemen and a scholar. I appreciate your speedy responses. But what i'm saying in regards to the tongues is that i believe there is a counterfeit out there. for everyreal thing there is always a counterfeit. If the True Spirit of God is being poured out on all these different churches, then where is the LOVE? Where is the UNITY? I thank God i left “organized christianity” because there is anything but LOVE and UNITY? If these people really have the Spirit, then why are we still quarreling over water baptism? over the Godhead? Gifts of the Spirit? Etc. I still go back and look at the 1st century bretheren. Again they had something we don't have………I have a problem with people that say that you have to do all this praying for the Holy Spirit! Especially those in the United Pentecostal Church. Now the scriptures says that it is a gift. If it is a gift, then why are people at alters throughout our land every Sunday praying for hours for this experience? in the latter part of Acts 5:32 Peter said that God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him. besides praying for hours for this experience, many people are encouraged to chant certain words (such as Hallelujah) at a fast pace. THIS IS HOGWASH. Many of these churches also teach unGodly practices such as SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT, which is unbiblical, Holy Laughter and all other kinds of crap. I know this i was recently studying and attending a UPC congregation. My wife, who doesn't want anything to do with Christianity, grew up in the Oneness Pentecostal faith. was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. went to the alter to pray for it numerous times. She fasted, tarried, never got it.She sought it with all her heart. But she said many of her teenage friends who where drinking, having sex and all other kinds of crap got it. and the sad part is that she said they were still living like this after they got it. Now either we're dealing with a hoax, or if this is the real Holy Spirit, then the doctrine of Predestination is true. God only wants certain people whom he has predestined. I would appreciate any feedback. [email protected][email protected]
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