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Hi david,
Did Peter lay hands on the group with Cornelius? No. And he was in no mood to do so while he was struggling with the idea of salvation coming to the gentiles too.God did it by His Sovereign power and authority to that show men are not really necesary to His plan but we are privileged to be His servants.
God will have His way. Anyone who can refuse all the helps given by God has to be a brave man..
Nick wrote:
Quote Hi david,
Do you rely on your teachers and your experience and your understanding to grasp the things of God? Have you asked God yet for the Spirit[and the gifts] as we are urged to do?God will surprise you as He longs to give all His blessings to His children.
Nick,
I am amazed by how easily you ignore scripture in favor of your own opinion. David gave you a serious scriptural study on the topic that we are discussing, and your response was to ask him if he had “asked for the Spirit” yet. Did you even consider the scripture in his post?
Well, the Spirit does not contradict scripture, Nick. If your understanding does not line up well with scripture, than your understanding is not of the Spirit. The only way for us to compare doctrine in this forum, and to come to any conclusion, is for us to look at scripture – (unless you plan to demonstrate to us your evidence of being gifted with the Spirit in some objective way).
Show us from scripture the things that you say Nick. (I would suggest that you read entire passages before you post any verses from them, because you are often taking the meaning of a verse completely out of its scriptural context.)
I'd like to see you actually respond to the scriptural study that David has posted, or to the many scriptural posts from Eliyah.
In general, you should be able to show us your doctrine from scripture. Otherwise, you will be proving, by default, that your teachings are your own, and not of the Spirit.
Quote Proverbs 18:
“1 A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire;
He rages against all wise judgment.
2 A fool has no delight in understanding,
But in expressing his own heart.”Proverbs 1:
“5 A wise man will hear and increase learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
…
7 The fear of [YHWH] is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction.”Hi OneSpirit,
Do you speak of personal experience of the work of the Spirit or is it only based on theory?I thought that I was simply speaking common sense scriptural truth.
Quote
Isaiah 8:20
“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”Nick, do you think the Spirit contradicts scripture?
Hi,
One Spirit. Do I take that as a no?
Scripture tells us we should seek the gift of the Spirit. Scripture also tells us the Spirit manifests in individuals in power and grace.
The Spirit wrote scripture through men so we should trust and obey it.
Do you agree?Hi,
Since the Spirit wrote scripture you need to be born of the Spirit to truly grasp it. As Jesus said you cannot see the kingdom unless you are born of the Spirit. Only if you are born of the Spirit can you judge what is spiritual in the work of others.
So those who assume they have the help of the Spirit need to know for sure. The Spirit produces fruit and still does the works of Him who sent the Spirit to Jesus and his followers. So since the Spirit is also said to be evidence of our salvation, our downpayment on eternity, then it is desperately important that we do know and do not assume these things.And if we have not sought the blessing yet we must.
You must be born again from above.
Quote Hi,
One Spirit. Do I take that as a no?
Scripture tells us we should seek the gift of the Spirit. Scripture also tells us the Spirit manifests in individuals in power and grace.
The Spirit wrote scripture through men so we should trust and obey it.
Do you agree?Wow. Nick, I asked you a straightforward question, and you completely ignored it. Well, I am going to answer your questions. Please show me the same courtesy, and answer mine.
You asked:
Quote One Spirit. Do I take that as a no? No, you should not. I do speak from personal experience, but more importantly, I am speaking from scripture. My personal experience has shown me that not all men who babble unintelligebly, cast out demons, and heal the sick are truly servants of YHWH. Mostly, by the fruit of their mouths, (i.e. their teaching), they have demonstrated that they do not know Him.
Quote Matthew 7:
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’You asked:
Quote The Spirit wrote scripture through men so we should trust and obey it.
Do you agree?I agree that we should trust and obey scripture, because in doing so, we are trusting and obeying the Spirit. If, however, you are talking about trusting that the Spirit is leading you into Truth without verifying that truth with scripture, then I completely disagree.
Quote 1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.Hi OS,
So not all who claim spiritual gifts are perpetrators of falsehood as that would make God a liar? Every gift can be verified from scripture.
Which gift did Jesus use with the woman at the well?Nick,
No, not all gifts are false, but gifts are not the proof of our faith. Again:
Quote Matthew 7:
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’You seem quite hard of hearing on this truth though.
Quote Romans 10:17:
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.You seem so “gift”-oriented that you have placed more importance on “gifts” than the Word. Yet, even Paul, during an age when “gifts” were much more abundant, places greater emphasis on teaching and doctrine than “miracle work”.
Quote Romans 12:
“6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.”Quote Ephesians 4:
“11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”Show me one passage where it is says that “speaking in tongues”, “casting out demons”, or “healing the sick” is more important than teaching sound doctrine.
By the way, since your argument is that the only way to know that we are led by the Spirit is to speak in tongues, or to display some other supernatural gift, then you should be able to show us that your gifts are authentic.
Prophesy. Go to a local hospital and heal the sick who are there. Go to a mental hospital and cast out demons. Find someone of a different language than you, and speak and witness to them in their language. Then, come back and tell us about it, so that we know that you are truly “gifted in the Spirit”. (Telling us that you feel good after you babble unintelligibly, or that someone got well weeks after you prayed for them really does not count because that could happen to anyone. Also, when casting out demons, there should be some evidence that you are dealing with a real demon, and not just a hysterical, or “spiritually bipolar”, person.)
Hi One Spirit,
Sound doctrine includes the seeking and receiving and the using of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Unsound doctrine excludes these vital blessings. Such also is lawlessness.ps,
The gifts are given to be used according to the leading of the Spirit and not our foolish imaginations. How many lepers were healed in the time of Naaman?
I have spoken little about gifts in the time I have been on this site. I am astounded that so few seem to have had any experience of them frankly.Quote Hi One Spirit,
Sound doctrine includes the seeking and receiving and the using of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Unsound doctrine excludes these vital blessings. Such also is lawlessness.Show me that in scripture.
Quote ps,
The gifts are given to be used according to the leading of the Spirit and not our foolish imaginations. How many lepers were healed in the time of Naaman?
I have spoken little about gifts in the time I have been on this site. I am astounded that so few seem to have had any experience of them frankly.Well, tell us more about your gifts. Tell us why you “know” your gifts are authentic, and not fake.
Quote (OneSpirit @ Oct. 04 2005,21:11) Quote Hi One Spirit,
Sound doctrine includes the seeking and receiving and the using of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Unsound doctrine excludes these vital blessings. Such also is lawlessness.Show me that in scripture.
Hi OS,
Lk 11.10-13
1Cor 12, 13, 14.The gifts are not evidence but fruit is. You do not know me and know little of my fruit except my zeal and love of the Word of God. You have to make your own mind up.
The pharisees demanded signs.
Hi OS,
Read 1 Jn 4.13. Eph 1.13-14 and 2 cor 1 21-22 and you will see that we know we are saved because the Spirit is evidence, a pledge or downpayment, as also in 1 Jn 5.7-8. What use is a pledge if we have never seen or experienced it and it is only theoretical? How can we speak of witnesses that are only allegorical?
The Body was designed to be empowered by the Spirit always and it is men who have denied it and robbed themselves. God is faithful to His promises.Hi OS,
Romans 8 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. This is a vital issue. Scripture shows that the Spirit is revealed among men in power and grace so we should be able to find evidence for ourselves. I have shared my limited experiences of the Spirit before but every man needs to know for himself that he is born of the Spirit. What can you share?Quote Luke 11:
9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”This says nothing about speaking in tongues. It says He will give us the Spirit. Do you know what that means?
Quote 1 Corinthians 12:
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.Notice which “gifts” Paul lists first.
As we all know, 1 Corinthians 13 is the “love chapter” where Paul explains that love is the greatest “gift” of all.
Quote 1 Corinthians 14:
1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:“ With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.According to Paul, “he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues”. Do you know what prophesy is? Do you seek after that? (Hint: Prophecy concerns the Truth of YHWH.)
Quote 1 John 4:13
By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.Again this is not about speaking tongues. This is about being given the Spirit. Do you know what that means? For some help, read it in context:
Quote 1 John 4:
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.Quote Ephesians 1:
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.Again, this is about receiving the Spirit, not about tongues. Do you know what it means to receive the Spirit?
Quote 2 Corinthians 2:
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.Do the “gifts of the Spirit” come from your heart? Again, do you know what it means to receive the Spirit – in this case, in your heart?
Quote 1 John 5
7For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.I am not sure what you are trying to prove with these verses, but you might want to look one verse before this passage:
Quote 1 John 5:6
This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.Quote Romans 8 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. Do you know what the “Spirit of Christ” is?
Nick, if this is the best scriptural proof you have that speaking in tongues is proof of being sealed with the Spirit, your teaching is on very shaky ground. It seems that you have a very shallow understanding of what the Spirit actually is. You say that “pharisees demanded signs”, but that is exactly what you have done in order to prove your faith. Is it not? The Spirit is more than nifty magic tricks, Nick. Afterall, even Pharoh's magicians were able to duplicate some of the signs from YHWH. Are you one of Pharoh's magicians, or have you received the true Spirit? Do you even know how to tell?
ps
Clearly you are a man of deep experience in these matters so we all wait to hear from your lips the evidence that you are filled with the Spirit of God and not just an expert on words.Hi OS,
Jn 20.22
“He breathed on them and said ' Receive the Holy Spirit..”Lk 24.49
“And hehold I am sending forth the promise of my Father upon you;but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high”
We can receive the Spirit without the gifts but the gifts are helpful for us and others and we are urged to seek them. Why does everyone know the negative side of the coin but nobody wants to know the positive?
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