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Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,10:49) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,10:39) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,10:24) THis is from a previous Post of mine…please show how this is incorrect “In the first six letters, all written during the period covered by the Book of Acts, we find that the sign gifts were operating in all these churches. All through the Book of Acts we read of tongues, the gift of prophecy, the gift of healing, etc.—for example, tongues and prophecy in Acts 19:6, the gift of prophecy in Acts 21:10-14, the gift of healing in Acts 19:11-12 and 28:8,9, etc.
And in the “Acts Epistles” we read of the gifts operating in the churches that Paul founded. In Galatians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 1 Corinthians 12,13,14, 2 Corinthians 12:12, Romans 12:6—in all these letters we read about the gifts in operation right through to the end of the Book of Acts.
But, during this time in the Book of Acts, the Lord revealed to Paul that the sign gifts were going to cease—1 Corinthians 13:8-12. The gifts were all in operation all through the Book of Acts period and are mentioned in the letters written during that time, but the Lord had revealed that the sign gifts were going to cease at some time in the future.
When the gift of tongues ceasedNow we turn to the prison epistles, the four letters written shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while Paul was a prisoner in Rome—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians…and we find that there is not one word about tongues, or the gift of healing. Even where we might have expected Paul to write of tongues in the passage about being “filled with the Spirit” in Ephesians 5:17, he has nothing to say about tongues. And as for the gift of healing, we read of a co-worker of Paul's, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.
Tongues in the Pastoral Epistles?In the 3 Pastoral Epistles, as in the prison epistles, we do not read of tongues or the gift of healing operating at this time. We do read of prophecies that had been made about Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:18 and 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6, but these were given years before. So far as we read in these three letters, we wouldn't even know that there had been a “gift of tongues.”
And, again, in places where we would have expected Paul to mention the sign gifts, he is silent. When Paul gives Timothy and Titus instructions regarding the choice of men to be elders in the churches, Paul says nothing about the desirability of these men having a gift such as prophecy, or healing, or other sign gifts (see Titus 1:6-9 and 1 Tim. 3:1-10). The gifts of tongues, prophecy, etc. were no longer in operation by the time Paul wrote the pastoral epistles.
It is clear that the gift of healing has ceased because, as in Philippians, Paul was no longer able to heal, even his co-workers. Timothy was suffering stomach problems and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23) and Paul can't heal him, doesn't recommend that he go to a healer in the church, doesn't send a prayer cloth or a bottle of anointing oil (remember the miracles of some 8 years earlier in Acts 19:11-12). Likewise in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul has to leave behind his co-worker Trophimus who had fallen sick on the last journey. Paul's gift of healing (Acts 28:9) was no longer operating in Philippians 2:27, 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20.
SummaryThe sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren't mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul's life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn't heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts.
Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them allows us to see the pattern of truth that is found in the Word of God:
The sign gifts were operating in Acts and in all of the Acts Epistles: Galatians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians and Romans.
But in this time period, in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, Paul tells us that the Lord had revealed to him that these gifts would cease some day. And they did, because in the letters written after the Book of Acts, the sign gifts had ceased, just as the Lord said that they would.
The pattern could not be clearer, and the contrast could not be sharper between the earlier letters and the later letters, between the time when all the sign gifts were operating, and the time when all the sign gifts had ceased.
We can now give a scriptural answer to the question that we started with: when did the sign gifts cease?
The answer: The sign gifts ceased at the end of the Book of Acts. There is no record in Scripture of any of the sign gifts operating in any of the letters that Paul wrote after the end of the Acts period, and it is clear that the gift of healing had ceased since Paul could no longer heal even his closest co-workers after the close of the Book of Acts. “
Hi DK:The gospels and all of the epistles end with Amen.
Quote a·men Audio Help /ˈeɪˈmɛn, ˈɑˈmɛn/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-men, ah-men] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–interjection 1. it is so; so be it (used after a prayer, creed, or other formal statement to express solemn ratification or agreement).Nothing can be added or taken away from the Word of God.
But the Acts of the Apostles is an open book which means that these Acts of God through his people are continuing and will continue until Jesus comes for the church.
It is at this time that the spiritual gifts will cease. There will be no need for them any longer when all of God's children will be saved. We will have a spiritual body so we will have no need for the gift of healing, for example.
What scriptures support what you say?
Have you checked the gospels and the epistles to see if the end in Amen? And have you checked to see if the Acts of the Apostles ends this way?Quote Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. The following verses tell us when prophecy will cease:
Quote 1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.At 1 Corinthians 13:8 reference is made to several miraculous gifts—prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Verse 9 again refers to two of these gifts—knowledge and prophecy—saying: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” (KJ) Or, as RS reads: “For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect.” Then verse 10 states: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (KJ) The word “perfect” is translated from the Greek te?lei?on, which conveys the thought of being full grown, complete, or perfect. Ro, By, and NW here render it “complete.” Notice that it is not the gift of tongues that is said to be “imperfect,” “in part,” or partial. That is said of “prophecy” and “knowledge.” In other words, even with those miraculous gifts, the early Christians had only an imperfect or partial understanding of God’s purpose. But when the prophecies would come to fulfillment, when God’s purpose would be accomplished, then “that which is perfect,” or complete, would come. So, this is obviously not discussing how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would continue.
Hi David:
What is your understanding of the following scriptures?
Quote 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Cr 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1Cr 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1Cr 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,12:23) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,10:49) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,10:39) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,10:24) THis is from a previous Post of mine…please show how this is incorrect “In the first six letters, all written during the period covered by the Book of Acts, we find that the sign gifts were operating in all these churches. All through the Book of Acts we read of tongues, the gift of prophecy, the gift of healing, etc.—for example, tongues and prophecy in Acts 19:6, the gift of prophecy in Acts 21:10-14, the gift of healing in Acts 19:11-12 and 28:8,9, etc.
And in the “Acts Epistles” we read of the gifts operating in the churches that Paul founded. In Galatians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 1 Corinthians 12,13,14, 2 Corinthians 12:12, Romans 12:6—in all these letters we read about the gifts in operation right through to the end of the Book of Acts.
But, during this time in the Book of Acts, the Lord revealed to Paul that the sign gifts were going to cease—1 Corinthians 13:8-12. The gifts were all in operation all through the Book of Acts period and are mentioned in the letters written during that time, but the Lord had revealed that the sign gifts were going to cease at some time in the future.
When the gift of tongues ceasedNow we turn to the prison epistles, the four letters written shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while Paul was a prisoner in Rome—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians…and we find that there is not one word about tongues, or the gift of healing. Even where we might have expected Paul to write of tongues in the passage about being “filled with the Spirit” in Ephesians 5:17, he has nothing to say about tongues. And as for the gift of healing, we read of a co-worker of Paul's, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.
Tongues in the Pastoral Epistles?In the 3 Pastoral Epistles, as in the prison epistles, we do not read of tongues or the gift of healing operating at this time. We do read of prophecies that had been made about Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:18 and 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6, but these were given years before. So far as we read in these three letters, we wouldn't even know that there had been a “gift of tongues.”
And, again, in places where we would have expected Paul to mention the sign gifts, he is silent. When Paul gives Timothy and Titus instructions regarding the choice of men to be elders in the churches, Paul says nothing about the desirability of these men having a gift such as prophecy, or healing, or other sign gifts (see Titus 1:6-9 and 1 Tim. 3:1-10). The gifts of tongues, prophecy, etc. were no longer in operation by the time Paul wrote the pastoral epistles.
It is clear that the gift of healing has ceased because, as in Philippians, Paul was no longer able to heal, even his co-workers. Timothy was suffering stomach problems and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23) and Paul can't heal him, doesn't recommend that he go to a healer in the church, doesn't send a prayer cloth or a bottle of anointing oil (remember the miracles of some 8 years earlier in Acts 19:11-12). Likewise in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul has to leave behind his co-worker Trophimus who had fallen sick on the last journey. Paul's gift of healing (Acts 28:9) was no longer operating in Philippians 2:27, 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20.
SummaryThe sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren't mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul's life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn't heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts.
Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them allows us to see the pattern of truth that is found in the Word of God:
The sign gifts were operating in Acts and in all of the Acts Epistles: Galatians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians and Romans.
But in this time period, in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, Paul tells us that the Lord had revealed to him that these gifts would cease some day. And they did, because in the letters written after the Book of Acts, the sign gifts had ceased, just as the Lord said that they would.
The pattern could not be clearer, and the contrast could not be sharper between the earlier letters and the later letters, between the time when all the sign gifts were operating, and the time when all the sign gifts had ceased.
We can now give a scriptural answer to the question that we started with: when did the sign gifts cease?
The answer: The sign gifts ceased at the end of the Book of Acts. There is no record in Scripture of any of the sign gifts operating in any of the letters that Paul wrote after the end of the Acts period, and it is clear that the gift of healing had ceased since Paul could no longer heal even his closest co-workers after the close of the Book of Acts. “
Hi DK:The gospels and all of the epistles end with Amen.
Quote a·men Audio Help /ˈeɪˈmɛn, ˈɑˈmɛn/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-men, ah-men] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–interjection 1. it is so; so be it (used after a prayer, creed, or other formal statement to express solemn ratification or agreement).Nothing can be added or taken away from the Word of God.
But the Acts of the Apostles is an open book which means that these Acts of God through his people are continuing and will continue until Jesus comes for the church.
It is at this time that the spiritual gifts will cease. There will be no need for them any longer when all of God's children will be saved. We will have a spiritual body so we will have no need for the gift of healing, for example.
What scriptures support what you say?
Have you checked the gospels and the epistles to see if the end in Amen? And have you checked to see if the Acts of the Apostles ends this way?Quote Pro
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.The following verses tell us when prophecy will cease:
Quote 1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
The desire of many today for the sensational and spectacular is not indicative of a healthy spiritual condition. Truly the words spoken by the Saviour are applicable today: “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign” (Matt. 12:39). During this present age “the just shall live by faith” (Gal. 3:11). “For we walk by faith, not by sight” (II Cor. 5:7). We are not to look for signs, but to walk by faith alone in the written Word of God. The Lord rebuked those of His day, and said, “Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe” (John 4:48). Later on He said, “Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29).By the way..your theory on Acts not ending in Amen means all the things in it continue today…is not found in scripture
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,12:33) By the way..your theory on Acts not ending in Amen means all the things in it continue today…is not found in scripture
Hi DK:Is God not still at work in the church?
What about the following scriptures are they speaking about a future event or has this already happened?
Quote Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Quote Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Hi DK,
So no longer does God have the ability to work through men such as Peter and Elisha who raised from the dead?Traditions teach powerless religion and should be avoided.
2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,12:31) 942767…you have yet to answer my sound scriptural reasoning…
Hi DK:You think that it is sound reasoning, but the reason is because you have been indoctrinated through the JW organization, and this teaching like others of their teachings that you have found to be false is also false.
I know because I have the gift of tongues and I use this gift in prayer at times.
Quote I know because I have the gift of tongues and I use this gift in prayer at times. So you've never actually spoken any other languages then?
Quote (david @ June 30 2008,13:17) Quote I know because I have the gift of tongues and I use this gift in prayer at times. So you've never actually spoken any other languages then?
Hi David:I have already quoted this scriptures and asked you to give me your understanding of them. I speak English and some Spanish but this a tongue that God understands in my prayer. I don't understand what my spirit is praying, but I pray in this tongue and I also pray with understanding.
Quote 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Cr 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1Cr 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1Cr 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,13:03) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,12:33) By the way..your theory on Acts not ending in Amen means all the things in it continue today…is not found in scripture
Hi DK:Is God not still at work in the church?
What about the following scriptures are they speaking about a future event or has this already happened?
Quote Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Quote Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Who are those two witnesses?Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,13:14) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,12:31) 942767…you have yet to answer my sound scriptural reasoning…
Hi DK:You think that it is sound reasoning, but the reason is because you have been indoctrinated through the JW organization, and this teaching like others of their teachings that you have found to be false is also false.
I know because I have the gift of tongues and I use this gift in prayer at times.
FOr the record what I wrote is not a teaching of the JW…they reason it another way..this is my ownQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2008,13:03) Hi DK,
So no longer does God have the ability to work through men such as Peter and Elisha who raised from the dead?Traditions teach powerless religion and should be avoided.
2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
THe power is in the Spirit, Love, and the Word…not useless babling in foreign tongues and false prophecyQuote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,13:42) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,13:14) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,12:31) 942767…you have yet to answer my sound scriptural reasoning…
Hi DK:You think that it is sound reasoning, but the reason is because you have been indoctrinated through the JW organization, and this teaching like others of their teachings that you have found to be false is also false.
I know because I have the gift of tongues and I use this gift in prayer at times.
FOr the record what I wrote is not a teaching of the JW…they reason it another way..this is my own
Hi DK:If this is your own reasoning rather than what the JW teach, I appologize for making that statement. I don't know what they teach relative this, but David seems to agree with your teaching, therefore, I thought that this is what they teach.
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,13:41) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,13:03) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,12:33) By the way..your theory on Acts not ending in Amen means all the things in it continue today…is not found in scripture
Hi DK:Is God not still at work in the church?
What about the following scriptures are they speaking about a future event or has this already happened?
Quote Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Quote Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Who are those two witnesses?
Hi DK:I don't know who they are, but it appears to be a future event, and they do have the gift of prophecy and apparently, the gift of miracles, and so, my point is that if this is a future event then these spiritual gifts have not ceased.
Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,13:51) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,13:42) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,13:14) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,12:31) 942767…you have yet to answer my sound scriptural reasoning…
Hi DK:You think that it is sound reasoning, but the reason is because you have been indoctrinated through the JW organization, and this teaching like others of their teachings that you have found to be false is also false.
I know because I have the gift of tongues and I use this gift in prayer at times.
FOr the record what I wrote is not a teaching of the JW…they reason it another way..this is my own
Hi DK:If this is your own reasoning rather than what the JW teach, I appologize for making that statement. I don't know what they teach relative this, but David seems to agree with your teaching, therefore, I thought that this is what they teach.
Oh no..you were correct in saying they teach this…but I reason it out different than the average JW…in other words I came to my own conclusion and reasoning..No harm done
By the way..i am enjoying our discussion…Understand I am in no way trying to undermine your experiences as a christian..I just think there are other reasons for what you claim to experience
Hi DK:
I believe that because we are Christians searching for the truth with an open mind God will reveal the truth to us.
Quote Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come God Bless
Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,14:13) Hi DK: I believe that because we are Christians searching for the truth with an open mind God will reveal the truth to us.
Quote Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come God Bless
Amen!!!I am blessed by this
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