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Referring to speaking in actual other languages (tongues) I asked:
Quote Have you ever seen anything that resembles that?”–david “No, I can't say that I have.”–94.
Well then, there has been some sort of change, hasn't there?
“WHETHER THERE ARE TONGUES, THEY WILL CEASE.”
I find your words here interesting:
“Certain members of the congregation want to portray themselves as being spiritual and go about in a worship service speaking in tongues. This obviously needs to be corrected.”–94I think the people who speak in tongues today are decieving themselves. I think many of them, as you say, do want to portray themselves as being spiritual. And perhaps pressure is put on them. They force themselves, but all that comes out is babble. Is this speaking in tongues?
“and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to SPEAK WITH DIFFERENT TONGUES. . . . How is it WE ARE HEARING, EACH ONE OF US, HIS OWN LANGUAGE in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking IN TONGUES about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:4,8,11)
david
Quote The congregations where I have worship have spoken English. I have seen someone speak in a tongue and someone interpret the tongue for the congreation in English. If everyone there speaks English, why not just speak English?
So, 94, you've never seen this actual purpose of speaking in tongues used then?
“How is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:8-11)Quote They are still essential to the salvation of God's children despite any arguements you may have to the contrary. In what way are they “essential” today? Back then, the congregation was extremely small and the world was extremely big and filled with various tongues. How would they receive the good news? Something was needed “essential.”
Today, that is in no way the case.
Secondly, back then, this special gift of speaking in tongues was used to verify that God had shifted from the fleshly Israelites and that the Christian congregation had God's backing. (Heb 2:2-4 if I remember.) Today, that is not the case. Back then, that was needed, essential. How is it essential today?Quote And you seem to be judging me as a false prophet the truth will be revealed one way or the other. If you could show me that what your congregation was doing in any way resembled this, or has ever resembled the pattern of the first century speaking in tongues, then great.
But YOU YOURSELF have said:
“No, I can't say that I have” that is, “seen anything that resembles that?”, the “that” being, speaking in other languages, as the earliest Christians did, for the purpose of telling the maginificent things of God, the good news, to those who spoke other languages.
You haven't seen it. So, therefore, SOMETHING HAS CHANGED. What? This, I think: “Whether there are gifts in tongues, they will cease.”
Quote I know my Father and he knows me, and he also knows you.
Yes, he knows everyone. Sees everything. He can read hearts.All I'm trying to say is we must be careful of self-deception. We know, we both know what the scripture says:
MATTHEW 7:21-23
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, DID WE NOT prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and PERFORM MANY POWERFUL WORKS IN YOUR NAME?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”So, some, thinking they are clearly on the Lord's side, even believing they are performing powerful works, as it turns out, will have deceiving themselves. Those “powerful works” will have been lies.
If the speaking in tongues of today, resembled the speaking in tongues of the first century, then, you may have something. But it does not, and you admit you've never seen it.
Is it possible many have deceived themselves in this way?
Quote Certain members of the congregation want to portray themselves as being spiritual and go about in a worship service speaking in tongues. –94.
If they're not really speaking in tongues, what are they doing?
Quote We are also told we will do greater things than they did! If they had the gifts and did great things, it only stand to reason that we would still have the gifts and do greater things through them. –mandy
Hi Mandy. Long time.
So here is that scripture:JOHN 14:12
“Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father.”When Jesus said: “do the works I do,” was he speaking of walking on water, changing water to wine? I don't remember him speaking in tongues.
Anyway,While Jesus was on earth, he said that
“Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the kingdom of God, BECAUSE FOR THIS I WAS SENT FORTH.” (Luke 4:43)
He also said:
“For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH.” (John 18:37)Jesus was often called a “teacher” but never a healer, for example. He was known for preaching the good news of the kingdom. He came into the world to tell “the truth” about the “good news of the kingdom of God” that is why he was “sent forth.”
So I believe, when Jesus mentioned his followers doing the works he did, he was referring to something else he fortold, the worldwide preaching work that would be done:
ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.””MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Jesus preached to many. His followers would preach the good news in all the nations, quite a mission.
Hi David:
We know what God did in the Acts of the Apostles when he spoke to the various peoples gathered together in their native tongue through those who had received the Holy Ghost. We see this only in this one incident and no other place in the scriptures. Since God spoke to these people in their native tongue there was no need for an interpreter.
If this is the gift of tongues to which the Apostle Paul is referring, why then is there a need for the gift of interpretation of tongues?
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 29 2008,16:50) Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:41) But an unbeliever needs them brother, even a believer needs some miracle in his life may corresond to his ailement or trouble in his life. Even showing love like Mandy shows in this forum I am blessed by her love towards brothers and sisters in this forum it is certainly a special gifyt what Paul wants us to perceive. Please see things in a different perspective you will see wonders my brother.
Thanks
Adam
God is Love1 Corinthians 13:13… 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Give an unbeliever this…and you help give him life
Hi DK:Suppose that God has given me the gift of healing and there is someone who calls on me to pray for their healing and I go and pray for them and they are healed. Is that not God's love being expressed through me for the person that was in need of a physical healing?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2008,20:10) Hi DK,
You say
” And they did, because in the letters written after the Book of Acts, the sign gifts had ceased, just as the Lord said that they would.”Where is this shown in scripture?
THe question should be…Where do you see gifts mentioned in the later epistles of Paul and the NT writers…Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,06:13) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 29 2008,16:50) Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:41) But an unbeliever needs them brother, even a believer needs some miracle in his life may corresond to his ailement or trouble in his life. Even showing love like Mandy shows in this forum I am blessed by her love towards brothers and sisters in this forum it is certainly a special gifyt what Paul wants us to perceive. Please see things in a different perspective you will see wonders my brother.
Thanks
Adam
God is Love1 Corinthians 13:13… 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Give an unbeliever this…and you help give him life
Hi DK:Suppose that God has given me the gift of healing and there is someone who calls on me to pray for their healing and I go and pray for them and they are healed. Is that not God's love being expressed through me for the person that was in need of a physical healing?
No..I think thats one of GOD's most wonderful creations…I believe we call it the Immune SystemHi DK,
Was Jesus fully blessed with the powers of the Spirit of God?acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.Are we not to follow him?
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.How can we do what he did without asking for what he had?
James 4:2
Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2008,09:43) Hi DK,
Was Jesus fully blessed with the powers of the Spirit of God?acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.Are we not to follow him?
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.How can we do what he did without asking for what he had?
James 4:2
Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Those “greater works” were referencing the preaching work my brother…Jesus had spoken what his Father wanted. He did the greatest, most lasting, good, not by his miracles, but by his marvelous teaching about the Kingdom. (Luke 4:32, 43) After he was resurrected Jesus commissioned his followers after him to ‘make disciples of people of all the nations, teaching them.’ (Matt. 28:19, 20) Christians were to carry on a vast preaching work. It was to be on a wider scale than Jesus’ preaching, for a longer time and to far more people. Thus, they would do works greater than he did.
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,09:25) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2008,06:13) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 29 2008,16:50) Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:41) But an unbeliever needs them brother, even a believer needs some miracle in his life may corresond to his ailement or trouble in his life. Even showing love like Mandy shows in this forum I am blessed by her love towards brothers and sisters in this forum it is certainly a special gifyt what Paul wants us to perceive. Please see things in a different perspective you will see wonders my brother.
Thanks
Adam
God is Love1 Corinthians 13:13… 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Give an unbeliever this…and you help give him life
Hi DK:Suppose that God has given me the gift of healing and there is someone who calls on me to pray for their healing and I go and pray for them and they are healed. Is that not God's love being expressed through me for the person that was in need of a physical healing?
No..I think thats one of GOD's most wonderful creations…I believe we call it the Immune System
Hi DK:The immune system is indeed one of the ways that God heals the physical body, but you did not answer my question. If God has given me the gift of healing, and If pray for someone that is in need of a healing and they are healed, is this not God's love being manifested through this. Jesus is our example is he not? Did Jesus have the gift of healing?
Also, there is the following scripture in the Word of God:
“Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”Is this scripture no longer valid?
What I have found is that God can heal the human body in one of four ways. First, the immune system, secondly, he will show you how to get healed. There are some diseases, such as diabetes and high blood pressure which are diet and excercise related, thirdly, God can heal you through a doctor, and lastly, He can heal you miraculously.
Spiritual gifts are given to mature Christians who have been tried. If a Christian, has not used what he can of his material possessions in love serving the Lord, why would God give that person spiritual gifts? These gifts are to be used in love serving the Lord and humanity.
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,09:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2008,09:43) Hi DK,
Was Jesus fully blessed with the powers of the Spirit of God?acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.Are we not to follow him?
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.How can we do what he did without asking for what he had?
James 4:2
Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Those “greater works” were referencing the preaching work my brother…
Hi DK,
Scripture please.
Did not God show his blessing by signs and wonders?
Acts 2:43
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 5:12
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.What has changed?
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,10:01) Jesus had spoken what his Father wanted. He did the greatest, most lasting, good, not by his miracles, but by his marvelous teaching about the Kingdom. (Luke 4:32, 43) After he was resurrected Jesus commissioned his followers after him to ‘make disciples of people of all the nations, teaching them.’ (Matt. 28:19, 20) Christians were to carry on a vast preaching work. It was to be on a wider scale than Jesus’ preaching, for a longer time and to far more people. Thus, they would do works greater than he did.
Hi DK,
Should we limit the work of God through us to what we can understand and have experienced so far?Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,09:59) To add… Matt 24:14…Matt 28:19,20…is what he is referring to
Hi DK,
Sounds like your JW background talking here.
But God has not become powerless.Just to add….The epistles of Paul correspond to the Acts of the Apostles…basically by a cross reference with Acts you can see where Paul was when he wrote each letter…
During the Book of Acts—6 letters:
1. Galatians
2. & 3. The Thessalonian letters
4. & 5. The Corinthian letters
6. Romans
Then after the Book of Acts ends—7 more letters:
The 4 Prison Epistles:
7. Ephesians
8. Colossians
9. Philemon
10. Philippians
Then the 3 Pastoral Epistles:
11. Titus
12. 1 Timothy
13. 2 Timothy
When we turn to the prison epistles, the four letters written shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while Paul was a prisoner in Rome—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians…and we find that there is not one word about tongues, or the gift of healing. Even where we might have expected Paul to write of tongues in the passage about being “filled with the Spirit” in Ephesians 5:17, he has nothing to say about tongues. And as for the gift of healing, we read of a co-worker of Paul's, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.
THis is from a previous Post of mine…please show how this is incorrect
“In the first six letters, all written during the period covered by the Book of Acts, we find that the sign gifts were operating in all these churches. All through the Book of Acts we read of tongues, the gift of prophecy, the gift of healing, etc.—for example, tongues and prophecy in Acts 19:6, the gift of prophecy in Acts 21:10-14, the gift of healing in Acts 19:11-12 and 28:8,9, etc.
And in the “Acts Epistles” we read of the gifts operating in the churches that Paul founded. In Galatians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 1 Corinthians 12,13,14, 2 Corinthians 12:12, Romans 12:6—in all these letters we read about the gifts in operation right through to the end of the Book of Acts.
But, during this time in the Book of Acts, the Lord revealed to Paul that the sign gifts were going to cease—1 Corinthians 13:8-12. The gifts were all in operation all through the Book of Acts period and are mentioned in the letters written during that time, but the Lord had revealed that the sign gifts were going to cease at some time in the future.
When the gift of tongues ceasedNow we turn to the prison epistles, the four letters written shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while Paul was a prisoner in Rome—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians…and we find that there is not one word about tongues, or the gift of healing. Even where we might have expected Paul to write of tongues in the passage about being “filled with the Spirit” in Ephesians 5:17, he has nothing to say about tongues. And as for the gift of healing, we read of a co-worker of Paul's, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.
Tongues in the Pastoral Epistles?In the 3 Pastoral Epistles, as in the prison epistles, we do not read of tongues or the gift of healing operating at this time. We do read of prophecies that had been made about Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:18 and 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6, but these were given years before. So far as we read in these three letters, we wouldn't even know that there had been a “gift of tongues.”
And, again, in places where we would have expected Paul to mention the sign gifts, he is silent. When Paul gives Timothy and Titus instructions regarding the choice of men to be elders in the churches, Paul says nothing about the desirability of these men having a gift such as prophecy, or healing, or other sign gifts (see Titus 1:6-9 and 1 Tim. 3:1-10). The gifts of tongues, prophecy, etc. were no longer in operation by the time Paul wrote the pastoral epistles.
It is clear that the gift of healing has ceased because, as in Philippians, Paul was no longer able to heal, even his co-workers. Timothy was suffering stomach problems and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23) and Paul can't heal him, doesn't recommend that he go to a healer in the church, doesn't send a prayer cloth or a bottle of anointing oil (remember the miracles of some 8 years earlier in Acts 19:11-12). Likewise in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul has to leave behind his co-worker Trophimus who had fallen sick on the last journey. Paul's gift of healing (Acts 28:9) was no longer operating in Philippians 2:27, 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20.
SummaryThe sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren't mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul's life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn't heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts.
Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them allows us to see the pattern of truth that is found in the Word of God:
The sign gifts were operating in Acts and in all of the Acts Epistles: Galatians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians and Romans.
But in this time period, in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, Paul tells us that the Lord had revealed to him that these gifts would cease some day. And they did, because in the letters written after the Book of Acts, the sign gifts had ceased, just as the Lord said that they would.
The pattern could not be clearer, and the contrast could not be sharper between the earlier letters and the later letters, between the time when all the sign gifts were operating, and the time when all the sign gifts had ceased.
We can now give a scriptural answer to the question that we started with: when did the sign gifts cease?
The answer: The sign gifts ceased at the end of the Book of Acts. There is no record in Scripture of any of the sign gifts operating in any of the letters that Paul wrote after the end of the Acts period, and it is clear that the gift of healing had ceased since Paul could no longer heal even his closest co-workers after the close of the Book of Acts. “
Hi DK,
Possibly.
But still an unproveable theory.
And one that may limit the current work of God among men.1 Corinthians 2:4
and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.
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