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Quote Hi DK: You may believe that they have disappeared because you have not seen these gifts in operation in the church, but I can assure you that no, they have not disappeared,
94, I have a question. You seem to have seen these things, or what you believe to be speaking in tongues. Have you ever seen someone that couldn't speak one language (spanish, chinese, cambodian, etc) suddenly be compelled by the spirit and start speaking one of these languages to someone who already knows that language and can benefit from it?
Have you ever seen anything that resembles that?
“How is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:8-11)
Quote During the church age these spiritual gifts are essential to the salvation of God's children. Well, back then they were, for a couple of reasons. Today, not so much.
Quote The gift of tongues is a prayer language
And the scripture I quoted above? What's that scripture all about? I'm curious to know how does it fit into what you believe?Quote Many will be saved when they see a healing miracle or when a prophet speaks to them something that only they know.
Well, yes, only them, God, the angels and the demons know.“My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God.”—1 John 4:1, Today’s English Version.
“Beloved ones . . . test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.” (Acts 17:11; See also 1 Thes 5:20,21)
Quote Here some scriptures that may help: Quote
1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteriesQuote
1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.Quote
1Cr 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Cr 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.These spiritual gifts are used to edify the church:
Quote
1Cr 14:26 ¶ How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.1 CORINTHIANS 14:2
Paul said: “For he that speaks in a tongue speaks, not to men, but to God.”
it should be noted that Paul is not here discussing private prayer but, rather, the use of the gift of tongues at a congregational meeting. (See 1 Corinthians 14:23.)
Moreover, Paul’s words are in complete harmony with both the purpose for which the gift of tongues was given and the description of the gift given in the book of Acts. If you read the entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians, you will notice that:
(1) the tongues referred to were known languages, not unintelligible speech, and
(2) the gift was to be used, not privately, but for the benefit of unbelievers.
Let us read verse 2 in its entirety. It states:
“FOR HE THAT SPEAKS IN A TONGUE SPEAKS, NOT TO MEN, BUT TO GOD, FOR NO ONE LISTENS, BUT HE SPEAKS SACRED SECRETS BY THE SPIRIT.”
The Greek word translated “tongue,” glōossa, is the same word as that used at Acts 2:4, 11, where it obviously has reference to known languages.
The Greek word translated “listens” can denote hearing something without understanding what is stated. This can be better understood in the light of verses 13, 16 and 17 of 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, where we read:
“Therefore let the one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may translate. Otherwise, if you offer praise with a gift of the spirit, how will the man occupying the seat of the ordinary person [or, unbeliever; see verses 22-25.] say ‘Amen’ to your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? True, you give thanks in a fine way, but the other man is not being built up.”
SIMPLY PUT, THE ONE SPEAKING IN A TONGUE SPEAKS TO GOD RATHER THAN TO MEN IF THE MEN WHO ARE LISTENING DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT HE IS SAYING. Paul had in mind not unintelligible speech but foreign languages that potentially COULD BE UNDERSTOOD BY OTHERS. But if, in fact, none of those present could understand the language and if there were no interpreters present, then the one who spoke the tongue should pray that he might translate it and thus build up others, especially the unbelievers.
If there was no one to translate, then, as the scripture says, it would be better for him to keep silent.—1 Cor. 14:28.“You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)
Notice that he thus gave indication of just how this monumental witness work would be accomplished—with the assistance of the holy spirit.
When Jesus said the words quoted above in Acts 1:8, the small group of disciples did not include persons who spoke the languages of every part of the earth. But, true to Jesus’ promise, about 10 days later, on the festival day of Pentecost, the holy spirit was poured out on about 120 of his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem. The result? They “started to speak with different tongues” and so could proceed immediately to carry out the assigned work of witnessing.—Acts 2:1-4.
Modern communication technology that enables us to send messages earth wide in many languages did not exist back then. The good news had to be spread primarily by word of mouth, and in this the miraculous gift of speaking in foreign tongues would prove very helpful. Such was the case as first-century Christians preached to Jews and proselytes in Jerusalem at Pentecost 33 C.E. Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Cretans, Arabians, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, and the district of Asia, as well as sojourners from Rome, heard “the magnificent things of God” in their own language and understood what was said. Three thousand quickly became believers.—Acts 2:5-11, 41Hi David:
The Apostle Paul is correcting those who are speaking in tongues in the congregation because it does nothing to edify the church since the tongue is not understood by any one except there is someone in the congregation with the gift of tongues to interpret.
I have seen this kind of thing in the church where I anticipate that I will be ordained as bishop. Certain members of the congregation want to portray themselves as being spiritual and go about in a worship service speaking in tongues. This obviously needs to be corrected. It does nothing to edify the church. This is a similar problem that the Apostle Paul is correcting in the church at Corinth.
You quoted the following:
Quote FOR HE THAT SPEAKS IN A TONGUE SPEAKS, NOT TO MEN, BUT TO GOD, FOR NO ONE LISTENS, BUT HE SPEAKS SACRED SECRETS BY THE SPIRIT.” When does a man speak to God, if not when one is praying?
In the Acts, God was speaking to men in their native tongue, and that is obviously different than what is being corrected in the church at Corinth.
Quote Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.Hi David:
You ask:
94, I have a question. You seem to have seen these things, or what you believe to be speaking in tongues. Have you ever seen someone that couldn't speak one language (spanish, chinese, cambodian, etc) suddenly be compelled by the spirit and start speaking one of these languages to someone who already knows that language and can benefit from it?
Have you ever seen anything that resembles that?
Quote Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Act 2:5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.No, I can't say that I have. The congregations where I have worship have spoken English. I have seen someone speak in a tongue and someone interpret the tongue for the congreation in English.
I said:
Quote During the church age these spiritual gifts are essential to the salvation of God's children. And you stated:
Quote Well, back then they were, for a couple of reasons. Today, not so much. They are still essential to the salvation of God's children despite any arguements you may have to the contrary.
I said:
Quote Many will be saved when they see a healing miracle or when a prophet speaks to them something that only they know. And you said:
Quote Well, yes, only them, God, the angels and the demons know. “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God.”—1 John 4:1, Today’s English Version.
“Beloved ones . . . test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.” (Acts 17:11; See also 1 Thes 5:20,21)
I quoted the following scripture which shows that it is God revealing that man's secrets.
Quote 1Cr 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Cr 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.And as for trying the spirits, the scripture states:
Quote 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And you seem to be judging me as a false prophet the truth will be revealed one way or the other.
Jesus faced a similar situation when he was accused of casting out devils by the spirit of Beelzebub:
Quote Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? I know my Father and he knows me, and he also knows you.
Amen to that post my brother 942767. You are right on telling importance of gifts of the Holy Spirit. If any one does not believe 1 Cor 12 chapter then he doesn't have the power of God's Spirit working in him. They are for the edification of the body of Christ that is the church of believers. As long as the church is there on the earth we continue to need these gifts.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,15:06) Amen to that post my brother 942767. You are right on telling importance of gifts of the Holy Spirit. If any one does not believe 1 Cor 12 chapter then he doesn't have the power of God's Spirit working in him. They are for the edification of the body of Christ that is the church of believers. As long as the church is there on the earth we continue to need these gifts.
Peace to you
Adam
Wow…thats a strong statement GM…Like I said…all we need is
Love
Spirit
THe bible…
Anybody who needs more than that…needs to work on their faith..
Remember THomas?
If you are having love,Bible and Spirit you will cherish to have the gifts of the Spirit my brother pl. see 1 cor 14:1-2
Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,15:19) If you are having love,Bible and Spirit you will cherish to have the gifts of the Spirit my brother pl. see 1 cor 14:1-2
I am familiar with it but Paul spoke on all the gifts and what would lastSee 1 cor 13:13
Hi DK,
It is later to 1 Cor 13:13 if you don't accept word of God as it is and you only take what is appealing to you then you are in missing some thing wonderful.
Please take care
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,15:26) Hi DK,
It is later to 1 Cor 13:13 if you don't accept word of God as it is and you only take what is appealing to you then you are in missing some thing wonderful.
Please take care
Adam
Yes but the 14th ch was simply to show the Corinth congregation why speaking in tongues was not that big a deal when compared with prophesying…Remeber he said he would rather speak 4 words in truth than 10,000 in tonguesThat does not invalidate what he said at 13:13
TO add…If you remember the Corinth congregation had more of these gifts than any other congregation…it got to the point where they were “showing off” their gifts, especially speaking in tongues, instead of edifying those around…Thats why Paul prophesied what he did at 13:13..and why he wrote what he did in the 14th Chapter…read this..it may change your mind…
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1064006213.html
No one was more “charismatic” than the Apostle Paul. He wrote to the Corinthian church that “they came behind no other church” when it came to the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 1:7)—no church had more of the gifts of the Holy Spirit than the Corinthian church, yet Paul says that he spoke in tongues more than all of them (1 Cor. 14:18)!
No one was more charismatic than Paul, yet the Lord revealed to him that those sign gifts were going to cease:
“whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away” (1 Cor. 13:8).1
Here Paul writes of the gift of tongues, the gift of prophecy and the gift of knowledge (see 1 Cor. 13:1-2) and states that the Lord Jesus had revealed to him (1 Cor. 11:23; 15:3; Gal. 1:11,12) that a time was coming when these sign gifts were going to cease to operate.
The question has always been: when? When would these gifts cease?
This study focuses on that question—when did the sign gifts cease?
Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote themWe begin by setting up a time line of Paul's ministry. Paul was saved in Acts 9 when the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Paul would go on to write 13 letters in the New Testament—from the Letter to the Romans to the Letter to Philemon. When we remember that Paul is the subject of at least half of the Book of Acts, we realize that half of the 27 books in the New Testament are either about him (The Book of Acts) or were written by him (13 letters).
Paul's letters are arranged in our Bible by two principles: The letters to the churches are put first—nine letters from Romans to 2 Thessalonians, then the four letters written to individuals—from 1 Timothy to Philemon.
The letters are also arranged by length—Romans is longest and is first, then the Corinthian letters, then Galatians, etc. Longer letters are first, shorter ones later.
But to understand when the sign gifts ceased, we need to read Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them. When we arrange the letters in the order that they were written, all becomes clear!
Paul's Letters in the order that he wrote them:The first 6 of Paul's letters can be fit into the Book of Acts—we can read Acts and then read Paul's letters and we can see where Paul was when he wrote these letters.
The Letter to the Galatians is firstIn Acts 13,14 Paul and Barnabas went on their first apostolic journey which took them into Galatia—cities like Antioch, Lystra, Derbe, etc. Soon after Paul returned from this journey he wrote the letter to the Galatians (see Galatians 1:6 where Paul writes to the Galatians and says, you are “so quickly turned.”). Galatians was written soon after Paul returned from that first journey—soon after Acts 14:27. That makes Galatians the earliest of Paul's letters.
1 and 2 ThessaloniansThe next letters Paul wrote are the two letters to the Thessalonians. In Acts 17, Paul, on his second apostolic journey, came to Thessalonica and preached there. Many were saved, but Paul was driven out of town. Paul continued on to Corinth where he wrote the two letters to the Thessalonians. Timothy's return from Macedonia mentioned in Acts 18:5 is also reported in 1 Thessalonians 3:6. And in 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Paul reminds the Thessalonians of his teaching, as if it had not been very long since he had been with them. So the writing of 1 and 2 Thessalonians can be placed into Acts 18 during Paul's ministry in Corinth, and that makes them the second and third letters that Paul wrote.
1 and 2 CorinthiansThe next two letters that Paul wrote are the two letters to the Corinthians. In Acts 18 Paul spent a year and a half ministering in Corinth—see Acts 18:11. He later returned to his home base at Antioch (Acts 18:22), and later in his third apostolic journey he arrived in Ephesus (his ministry in Ephesus extends all the way through Acts 19—a period of more than two years, see verse 10). It is here in Ephesus during Acts 19 that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians—see I Corinthians 16:19. Shortly after that Paul traveled to Macedonia (see Acts 20:1 and 2 Cor. 2:13) and that is where he wrote the second letter to the Corinthians.
RomansIn Acts 20:2,3 Paul arrived in “Greece,” i.e. in Corinth again, and spent three months there enjoying the hospitality of a believer named Gaius (mentioned in 1 Cor. 1:14). In Gaius's home, in Corinth, Paul wrote the letter to the Romans (see Rom. 16:23).
This is the last letter written during the Book of Acts. In Acts 21:33 Paul was arrested in Jerusalem, and would spend the next 5 years in prison, right through the end of the Book of Acts.
So, to sum up what we have seen so far, from Acts 9 through Acts 28 we read of the earlier ministry of the Apostle Paul and find that during these years he wrote 6 of his 13 letters. The order of these first six books is:
1. Galatians—end of Acts 14
2. 1 Thessalonians—Acts 18
3. 2 Thessalonians—Acts 18
4. 1 Corinthians—Acts 19
5. 2 Corinthians—Acts 20
6. Romans—Acts 20
In Acts 21 Paul was arrested and remained a prisoner through to Acts 28, and beyond.
The Prison Epistles—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon, and PhilippiansShortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while he was still a prisoner, now in Rome, Paul wrote four letters—the “prison epistles”: Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians. In each of these letters he writes of his “chains”—see Ephesians 6:20, Colossians 4:18, Philemon 13 and Philippians 1:13.
The Pastoral Epistles—The letters to Titus, First and Second TimothyPaul was released from this imprisonment and continued his ministry for a few years, perhaps 3 years. During this time he wrote the three letters known as the “Pastoral Epistles,” because these letters were written to Paul's co-workers—Pastor Timothy and Titus. Finally at the end of his life he is again in prison. This time he anticipates being beheaded for the Lord and writes the last letter, Second Timothy.
Summary:We have surveyed the 13 letters written by the Apostle Paul, arranging them in the order in which Paul wrote them:
During the Book of Acts—6 letters:
1. Galatians
2. & 3. The Thessalonian letters
4. & 5. The Corinthian letters
6. Romans
Then after the Book of Acts ends—7 more letters:
The 4 Prison Epistles:
7. Ephesians
8. Colossians
9. Philemon
10. Philippians
Then the 3 Pastoral Epistles:
11. Titus
12. 1 Timothy
13. 2 Timothy
Now let's read the letters in the order Paul wrote themHaving surveyed the 13 letters and having put them into their chronological order, let's see what they tell us about the question: when did the sign gifts cease?
In the first six letters, all written during the period covered by the Book of Acts, we find that the sign gifts were operating in all these churches. All through the Book of Acts we read of tongues, the gift of prophecy, the gift of healing, etc.—for example, tongues and prophecy in Acts 19:6, the gift of prophecy in Acts 21:10-14, the gift of healing in Acts 19:11-12 a
nd 28:8,9, etc.And in the “Acts Epistles” we read of the gifts operating in the churches that Paul founded. In Galatians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 1 Corinthians 12,13,14, 2 Corinthians 12:12, Romans 12:6—in all these letters we read about the gifts in operation right through to the end of the Book of Acts.
But, during this time in the Book of Acts, the Lord revealed to Paul that the sign gifts were going to cease—1 Corinthians 13:8-12. The gifts were all in operation all through the Book of Acts period and are mentioned in the letters written during that time, but the Lord had revealed that the sign gifts were going to cease at some time in the future.
When the gift of tongues ceasedNow we turn to the prison epistles, the four letters written shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while Paul was a prisoner in Rome—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians…and we find that there is not one word about tongues, or the gift of healing. Even where we might have expected Paul to write of tongues in the passage about being “filled with the Spirit” in Ephesians 5:17, he has nothing to say about tongues. And as for the gift of healing, we read of a co-worker of Paul's, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.
Tongues in the Pastoral Epistles?In the 3 Pastoral Epistles, as in the prison epistles, we do not read of tongues or the gift of healing operating at this time. We do read of prophecies that had been made about Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:18 and 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6, but these were given years before. So far as we read in these three letters, we wouldn't even know that there had been a “gift of tongues.”
And, again, in places where we would have expected Paul to mention the sign gifts, he is silent. When Paul gives Timothy and Titus instructions regarding the choice of men to be elders in the churches, Paul says nothing about the desirability of these men having a gift such as prophecy, or healing, or other sign gifts (see Titus 1:6-9 and 1 Tim. 3:1-10). The gifts of tongues, prophecy, etc. were no longer in operation by the time Paul wrote the pastoral epistles.
It is clear that the gift of healing has ceased because, as in Philippians, Paul was no longer able to heal, even his co-workers. Timothy was suffering stomach problems and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23) and Paul can't heal him, doesn't recommend that he go to a healer in the church, doesn't send a prayer cloth or a bottle of anointing oil (remember the miracles of some 8 years earlier in Acts 19:11-12). Likewise in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul has to leave behind his co-worker Trophimus who had fallen sick on the last journey. Paul's gift of healing (Acts 28:9) was no longer operating in Philippians 2:27, 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20.
SummaryThe sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren't mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul's life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn't heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts.
Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them allows us to see the pattern of truth that is found in the Word of God:
The sign gifts were operating in Acts and in all of the Acts Epistles: Galatians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians and Romans.
But in this time period, in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, Paul tells us that the Lord had revealed to him that these gifts would cease some day. And they did, because in the letters written after the Book of Acts, the sign gifts had ceased, just as the Lord said that they would.
The pattern could not be clearer, and the contrast could not be sharper between the earlier letters and the later letters, between the time when all the sign gifts were operating, and the time when all the sign gifts had ceased.
We can now give a scriptural answer to the question that we started with: when did the sign gifts cease?
The answer: The sign gifts ceased at the end of the Book of Acts. There is no record in Scripture of any of the sign gifts operating in any of the letters that Paul wrote after the end of the Acts period, and it is clear that the gift of healing had ceased since Paul could no longer heal even his closest co-workers after the close of the Book of Acts.
So believe at least prophecy is there because you hate people who speak in tongues. Do you think that 1 Cor 14 and 12th are not in the Bible?
Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,15:56) So believe at least prophecy is there because you hate people who speak in tongues. Do you think that 1 Cor 14 and 12th are not in the Bible?
I agree that they had a purpose then…But there is no need for prophesy..because all of GOD's prophecys are in and explained by his word the bible…remember..Paul said they “prophecy partially''…we need not those gifts brother GM..We have all we need…as I said remember Thomas
John 20:29… 29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
You don't need to look for these spectacular displays which are not of the spirit…
Pray for spirit, exhibit love, and ponder GOD's word and you will be “fully equipped to do the work of the lord”
But an unbeliever needs them brother, even a believer needs some miracle in his life may corresond to his ailement or trouble in his life. Even showing love like Mandy shows in this forum I am blessed by her love towards brothers and sisters in this forum it is certainly a special gifyt what Paul wants us to perceive. Please see things in a different perspective you will see wonders my brother.
Thanks
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:41) But an unbeliever needs them brother, even a believer needs some miracle in his life may corresond to his ailement or trouble in his life. Even showing love like Mandy shows in this forum I am blessed by her love towards brothers and sisters in this forum it is certainly a special gifyt what Paul wants us to perceive. Please see things in a different perspective you will see wonders my brother.
Thanks
Adam
God is Love1 Corinthians 13:13… 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Give an unbeliever this…and you help give him life
Hi DK,
You say
” And they did, because in the letters written after the Book of Acts, the sign gifts had ceased, just as the Lord said that they would.”Where is this shown in scripture?
Quote I have seen this kind of thing in the church where I anticipate that I will be ordained as bishop. Which language did he speak in?
“and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues. . . . How is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:4,8,11)
Have you ever seen this?
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