The gift of tongues

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 09 2007,14:55)

To all;

Throughout the book of Acts the Holy Spirit was poured out with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, not only Acts 2. Please see Acts 8:15-19, 10:44, 11:15, and 19:2-6. Normally the Holy Ghost was given by the laying on of hands, but not always. Paul told Timothy not to neglect the gift that was given to him by the laying on of Paul's hands.

Take Care

Steven

Acts 8:15-19 — no tongues.

Acts 10:44 — tongues in v46, but this was due to differing languages again.

Acts 11:15 — no tongues.

Acts 19:2 — tongues in v6.

Laying on of hand's is not the same thing as speaking in tongues. Beyond that, it is not a gift given to all believers.

1Co 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

October 9, 2007 at 9:34 pm#67943

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 10 2007,00:07)

Quote (thehappyman @ Oct. 08 2007,23:43)

Hi All,
Tongues ? Are they necessary ? Hmm. It worthy to be given instruction. Do People abuse it , hmm only the Holy Spirit leads us in all truth. In a church where it edifices the whole body with an interpreter is scriptural. It is dangerous for any one to say that the Holy Spirit speaks in an unknown tongue through a person is evil or is of the Devil. This is close to blaspheming Him. So many have spoken this in defense of their denominational teaching. Ask God for the gift and you will know the difference once you received it. .And that's my 2 cents worth. ………..lol……………..

Hey happyman,

Only one point of contention here: we are given our gifts when we receive the Holy Spirit. So we can't really pray for a gift but we can pray that our gifts will be revealed.

Hi KJ:

If your understanding of this is correct, why would the Apostle Paul say the following.

Quote

1 Cor 14:
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual {gifts,} but especially that you may prophesy.

And,

Quote

1 Co.14:13
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret

God Bless

October 9, 2007 at 10:16 pm#67950

Participant

94,

1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

If it was matter of being able to pray to receive certain gifts, the church would be lopsided because most people would desire the “important” gifts like evangelism, healing, prophecy, etc. But then who would wish for gifts of helps, giving, serving, mercy, etc.

As for your verses

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

We all have at least one gift, some people have more. When Paul speaks of desiring spiritual gifts, it is relation to using them. Many people ignore their spiritual gifts and they are of little value to the church when they do not utilize the gifts given to them for the building of the church.

1Co 14:13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

That one is easy: what good would it do you if you spoke in tongues but you did not understand what you were saying? You wouldn't even be able to edify yourself with that gift! The next verse is your context:

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

So without an understanding of what you are saying in tongues, it would all just be gibberish and this would be of no benefit to you.

LG&LP,
Kevin

October 9, 2007 at 11:19 pm#67955

Participant

People seem not to realize that they spoke in tongues of other human languages so that the people could understand what they said. It was a special outpouring of the Spirit that day, and specifically for the task of reaching many people who spoke and understood different human languages. Do you see the Apostles speaking in tongues again any time after that point?
–Kejonn

This is a good point. As is this:

Normally the Holy Ghost was given by the laying on of hands, but not always. Paul told Timothy not to neglect the gift that was given to him by the laying on of Paul's hands.
–Mr. Steve

As far as I can tell, whenever the gift of speaking in tongues was given to someone, it was laying on of hands of one of the apostles. This makes me think that when the apostles died off, so did the actual true gift of speaking in tongues. That gift, had a specific purpose, for that specific time, as Kejonn says: “the task of reaching many people who spoke and understood different human languages.”
Today, things have changed. I have never really seen anyone today speaking in tongues in another language (which was the purpose of this; see below). It always seems to be unintelligable uncontrolled speech that almost seems unnatural and demonic.

October 9, 2007 at 11:25 pm#67956

Participant

WHY THE GIFT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES WAS GIVEN

First of all, the apostle Paul explains at Hebrews 2:2-4 that the miraculous gifts, which would include the gift of tongues, were given to the first-century Christians to verify that God’s favor had shifted from the old Jewish arrangement for worship to the newly established Christian congregation.
The shift of divine favor was well established by the latter part of the first century, while some of the apostles of Jesus Christ were yet alive.

That the gift of tongues also served another purpose can be seen from Jesus’ words to his disciples shortly before his ascension to heaven in 33 C.E. He said:
“You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)

The small group of disciples did not include persons who spoke the languages of every part of the earth. But, true to Jesus’ promise, about 10 days later, on the festival day of Pentecost, the holy spirit was poured out on about 120 of his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem. The result? They “started to speak with different tongues” and so could proceed immediately to carry out the assigned work of witnessing.—Acts 2:1-4.

When those disciples gave a witness in Jerusalem at the festival of Pentecost, Jews and proselytes who had come from faraway places for the festival were heard to say:
“How is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:8-11)

It is obvious that the tongues mentioned here were known languages, not unintelligible speech. And notice that the gift was used in harmony with the purpose for which Jesus said the spirit would be given, namely, to witness to others.
It notably served that purpose, for “on that day about three thousand souls were added.”—Acts 2:41.

Another instance when the outpouring of holy spirit was accompanied by the gift of tongues is reported on at Acts 10:44-46. If you read the account you will notice that when God’s spirit fell upon the Gentile Cornelius and his household, they, too, began “speaking with tongues.” Commenting on what he had observed on that occasion, the apostle Peter said:
“But when I started to speak, the holy spirit fell upon them just as it did also upon us in the beginning.”

So, according to Peter, the gift of tongues bestowed on that occasion was the same gift received several years previously at Pentecost—a miraculous ability to speak foreign languages. The Bible shows that the gift of tongues given to Cornelius and his household convinced Peter and those with him that God was now accepting uncircumcised Gentiles into the congregation. God was now using the Christian congregation.—Acts 11:15-18.
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Some would point out 1 Corinthians 14:2. Did not Paul say, “For he that speaks in a tongue speaks, not to men, but to God”?’

First of all, it should be noted that Paul is not here discussing private prayer but, rather, the use of the gift of tongues at a congregational meeting. (See 1 Corinthians 14:23.) Moreover, Paul’s words are in complete harmony with both the purpose for which the gift of tongues was given and the description of the gift given in the book of Acts. If you read the entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians, you will notice that
(1) the tongues referred to were known languages, not unintelligible speech, and
(2) the gift was to be used, not privately, but for the benefit of unbelievers.

Let us read verse 2 in its entirety. It states: “For he that speaks in a tongue speaks, not to men, but to God, for no one listens, but he speaks sacred secrets by the spirit.”
The Greek word translated “tongue,” glossa, is the same word as that used at Acts 2:4, 11, where it obviously has reference to known languages. The Greek word translated “listens” can denote hearing something without understanding what is stated. This can be better understood in the light of verses 13, 16 and 17 of 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, where we read:

“Therefore let the one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may translate. Otherwise, if you offer praise with a gift of the spirit, how will the man occupying the seat of the ordinary person [or, unbeliever; see verses 22-25.] say ‘Amen’ to your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? True, you give thanks in a fine way, but the other man is not being built up.”

Simply put, the one speaking in a tongue speaks to God rather than to men if the men who are listening do not understand what he is saying.

Paul had in mind not unintelligible speech but foreign languages that potentially could be understood by others. But if, in fact, none of those present could understand the language and if there were no interpreters present, then the one who spoke the tongue should pray that he might translate it and thus build up others, especially the unbelievers. If there was no one to translate, then, as the scripture says, it would be better for him to keep silent.—1 Cor. 14:28.

What about today? Would not gifts such as tongues be necessary to ‘indicate the presence of the holy spirit’ in a person?

A PART OF CHRISTIANITY TODAY?
The Scriptures show that the miraculous gifts given to first-century Christians were only temporary in nature.
“Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease.” (1 Cor. 13:8)

Does the Bible give any indication as to when the gifts would cease? YES, it does.

Read for yourself the reported cases when the gift of tongues accompanied the outpouring of holy spirit: Acts 2:1-4, 14; 10:44-48; 19:6. You will notice that in every case one or more of the apostles of Jesus Christ were present.
According to Acts 8:18, “through the laying on of the hands of the apostles the spirit was given.”
Logically, then, with the death of the apostles, the transmitting of the gifts of the spirit, including the gift of tongues, ceased.

The gift of tongues had served its purpose. It had been well established that the Christian congregation had God’s favor and backing. Moreover, Christians had grown in number and had been dispersed to many lands, carrying the “good news” with them.—Compare Colossians 1:23.

‘But if the gifts have ceased, then what accounts for modern-day manifestations?’ some may ask.

Could it be possible that the modern-day gift of tongues is not from God? Admittedly, accepting this may be difficult for those who claim to have the gift. Of the 5,000,000 adult Americans who claim to speak in tongues, 33 percent do not even believe that the Devil is a personal being and that he can influence others.

david

October 9, 2007 at 11:26 pm#67957

Participant

“My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God.”—1 John 4:1, Today’s English Version.

“Beloved ones . . . test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.” (Acts 17:11; See also 1 Thes 5:20,21)

October 9, 2007 at 11:35 pm#67958

Participant

Even in the first century, the apostle Paul was compelled to write the congregation in Corinth to correct their view of why the gift of tongues was given to early Christians. Seemingly, some had become fascinated with the gift of tongues, and they were acting like little children, spiritually immature. Too much importance was being attached to “tongues.” (1 Corinthians 14:1-39) Paul emphasized that not all Christians in the first century spoke in miraculous tongues. It was not necessary to their salvation. Even back then when it existed, the gift of tongues was secondary to miraculous prophesying. Speaking in tongues was not, and is not, a requirement for Christians to gain everlasting life.—1 Corinthians 12:29, 30; 14:4, 5.
Among those ‘speaking in tongues’ today are Pentecostals and Baptists, also Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians, and a few others.

SOME QUESTIONS TO PONDER for people who like to ponder:

In the first century, the miraculous gifts of the spirit, including the ability to “speak in tongues,” verified that God’s favor had shifted from the 1500 year old Jewish system of worship to the newly established Christian congregation. Is that not what Hebrews 2:2-4 says? Since that objective was accomplished in the first century, is it necessary to prove the same thing again and again in our day?

In the first century, the ability to “speak in tongues” gave impetus to the international work of witnessing that Jesus had commissioned his followers to do. (Acts 1:8; 2:1-11; Matt. 28:19) It was a practical means to spread the good news on an international scale in a short time, contributing to the numerical growth and upbuilding of the infant congregation of Christians. Is that how those who “speak in tongues” use that ability today?

In the first century, when Christians ‘spoke in tongues,’ what they said had meaning to people who knew those languages. (Acts 2:4, 8) Today, is it not true that ‘speaking in tongues’ usually involves an ecstatic outburst of unintelligible sounds?

In the first century, the Bible shows, congregations were to limit the ‘speaking in tongues’ to two or three persons who might do that at any given meeting; they were to do it “each in turn,” and if there was no interpreter present they were to keep silent. (1 Cor. 14:27, 28, RS) Is that what is being done today?

THESE QUESTIONS DESERVE MORE THAN A CURSORY ANSWER. Why? Because we want our worship to have God’s approval and blessing. We must make sure we are not deceiving ourselves or being deceived. We must therefore put what the Bible says ahead of our personal experience, as hard as that is to do.

ARE TRUE CHRISTIANS TODAY IDENTIFIED BY THE ABILITY TO “SPEAK IN TONGUES?”
John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”
Love is the primary fruitage of God’s holy spirit; the others are “joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (I’ve wondered how self-controlled a person is when they are knocked off their chairs and shout in different tongues. And I wonder who is controlling them? Sometimes, it looks more like they’re almost being attacked to me. Is that God’s spirit in action?)

1 Cor. 13:1, 8: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding piece of brass or a clashing cymbal. Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease.”

JESUS SAID THAT HOLY SPIRIT WOULD COME UPON HIS FOLLOWERS and that they would be witnesses of him to the MOST DISTANT PART OF THE EARTH. (Read Acts 1:8) He instructed them to “make disciples of people of all the nations.” (Matt. 28:19) He also foretold that ‘this good news of the kingdom would be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all nations.’ (Matt. 24:14) In harmony with what Jesus said, should we not look for this as an evidence that a group has holy spirit?

DOES NOT Mark 16:17, 18 (KJ) SHOW THAT THE ABILITY TO “SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES” WOULD BE A SIGN IDENTIFYING BELIEVERS?
It should be noted that these verses refer not only to ‘speaking with new tongues’ but also to handling serpents and drinking deadly poison. Are all who “speak in tongues” also encouraging these practices?
It should also be noted that these verses are not accepted by all Bible scholars.
These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) Tregelles, a noted nineteenth-century Bible scholar, states: “Eusebius, Gregory of Nyssa, Victor of Antioch, Severus of Antioch, Jerome, as well as other writers, especially Greeks, testify that these verses were not written by St. Mark, or not found in the best copies.”
There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.
But even if these words were part of Mark’s inspired writings (although the bulk of evidence shows they are not) there is nothing in them contrary to the Scriptural evidence that tongues would pass away following the death of the apostles. (See below.)

CAN THE ABILITY TO “SPEAK IN TONGUES” COME FROM A SOURCE OTHER THAN THE TRUE GOD?
Of course. But we all know this, so let’s be brief:
The Bible itself warns that Satan and his demons are able to influence people and control their speech. (Acts 16:17, 18) Jesus acted against a demonic spirit that had moved a man to shout and fall to the floor. (Luke 4:33-35) Paul warned that ‘Satan would transform himself into an angel of light.’ (2 Corinthians 11:14) We are warned that Satan would use “every powerful work and lying signs and portents.”—2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10. (See also 1 John 4:1; Mat 7:21-23)
Did you know that speaking in tongues was a part of certain pagan religions of Greece in Paul’s day? Their rites mixed speaking in tongues with practices such as the cutting of the flesh and frenzied nude dancing. Such historical examples clearly show that speaking in tongues can occur under influences that are most unholy.
A joint statement by the Fountain Trust and the Church of England Evangelical Council admitted: “We are also aware that a similar phenomenon can occur under occult/demonic influence.” (Gospel and Spirit, April 1977, published by the Fountain Trust and the Church of England Evangelical Council, p. 12) The book Religious Movements in Contemporary America (edited by Irving I. Zaretsky and Mark P. Leone, quoting L. P. Gerlach) reports that in Haiti ‘speaking in tongues’ is characteristic of both Pentecostal and Voodoo religions.—(Princeton, N.J.; 1974), p. 693; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10.

IF THE SPEAKING IN TONGUES THAT WE SEE TODAY WAS FROM GOD, WOULDN’T IT BE VERY SIMILAR IN APPEARANCE AND PURPOSE TO THE SPEAKING IN TONGUES THAT WAS SEEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY?

Why the gift of tongues?
Modern communication technology that enables us to send messages earth wide in many languages did not exist back then. The good news had to be spread primarily by word of mouth, and in this the miraculous gift of spe
aking in foreign tongues would prove very helpful. Such was the case as first-century Christians preached to Jews and proselytes in Jerusalem at Pentecost 33 C.E. Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Cretans, Arabians, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, and the district of Asia, as well as sojourners from Rome, heard “the magnificent things of God” in their own language and understood what was said. Three thousand quickly became believers.—Acts 2:5-11, 41

Why the gibberish?
When those disciples gave a witness in Jerusalem at the festival of Pentecost, Jews and proselytes who had come from faraway places for the festival were heard to say:
“How is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:8-11)
It is obvious that the tongues mentioned here were known languages, not unintelligible speech. And notice that the gift was used in harmony with the purpose for which Jesus said the spirit would be given, namely, to witness to others. It notably served that purpose, for “on that day about three thousand souls were added.”—Acts 2:41.
In the first-century, stress was laid on the need to interpret clearly the message conveyed in tongues so that it could be understood by all and result in the edification of many. (1 Corinthians 14:26-33) Paul admonished: “Unless you through the tongue utter speech easily understood, how will it be known what is being spoken? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air.”—1 Corinthians 14:9.
While the spirit of God granted early Christians the gift of tongues, it did not cause them to speak unintelligible or untranslatable gibberish. In harmony with Paul’s counsel, the holy spirit provided speech that resulted in the good news being more quickly “preached in all creation that is under heaven.”—Colossians 1:23.
As in the first century, all creation must hear the message of the Kingdom. (Mk 13:10) This is possible because the Bible has now been translated, in whole or in part, into almost 2,000 LANGUAGES. The same spirit that infused early Christians to speak boldly and courageously is now supporting this wondrous preaching work today. By word of mouth and by using modern printing technology to make available Scriptural truth by the printed page this message is going out to over 230 countries and islands of the sea.

Again, Reasons for speaking in tongues:
1. In the infancy of the Christian congregation this gift assisted the limited number of disciples to instruct foreigners about “the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:5-11)
2. The gift of tongues served as a visible evidence of God’s favor upon this new Christian organization. (1 Cor. 14:22)

“WHETHER THERE ARE TONGUES, THEY WILL CEASE”–WHEN?
In Corinthians 13, Paul goes on to show them the lowly position of tongues as compared with more important matters, especially the “surpassing way” of love. Even those blessed with the gift of tongues “become a sounding piece of brass or a clashing cymbal” if they do not exercise love, he explained. (1 Cor. 12:31; 13:1) And to emphasize the importance and permanence of love as compared to the miraculous gifts of the spirit, he wrote: “Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.”—1 Cor. 13:8.
On the basis of Paul’s words here, there should be no question that the miraculous gifts of the spirit were to pass away. But when? It is argued by some that, since Paul said that ‘tongues are a sign to the unbelievers,’ they would not pass away until unbelievers passed away, that is, until there were no longer any unbelievers. (1 Cor. 14:22) But is that the point Paul is making in this thirteenth chapter? No, it is not. In this chapter he does not associate the cessation of tongues with unbelievers, but, rather, he is comparing the temporariness of the gifts of the spirit with the permanence of love; and he links the transitoriness of these gifts, not with unbelievers, but with the infancy of Christianity.
So after declaring, in verse 8, that the miraculous gifts of prophesying, tongues and knowledge are to be done away with, Paul shows that they were a feature of the babyhood of the Christian congregation. These special gifts of God were an identifying feature of Christianity in its infancy, but, as an adult does away with the traits of a babe, so the Bible shows that these special gifts, too, were to pass away. (1 Cor. 13:8-11)
In its infancy such miraculous gifts were needed to identify in a spectacular way that God’s favor had shifted from the Jewish nation and was now upon this new congregation of Christians. But, as Paul explained, when a man reaches adulthood he does away with “the traits of a babe.” So when the Christian congregation grew to adulthood, that is, reached maturity by becoming a recognized, established organization, these miraculous gifts passed away. Yet faith, hope and love remained as the distinguishing mark of true Christianity.—1 Cor. 13:9-13.
Regarding the transitoriness of the miraculous gifts M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia, Volume 10, page 484, says: “It thus appears that the miraculous gifts of the first days bestowed upon the Church for a definite purpose were gradually but quickly withdrawn from men when the apostles and those who had learned Christ from their lips had fallen asleep.”

“THE SPIRIT WAS GIVEN”–How? And what does this tell us?
Acts 8:18 reveals that the gifts of the spirit were received “through the laying on of the hands of the APOSTLES.”
The Bible record reveals that when any miraculous gift of the spirit was transmitted, at least one of the 12 apostles or the apostle Paul was present. Read for yourself the reported cases when the gift of tongues accompanied the outpouring of holy spirit: Acts 2:1-4, 14; 10:44-48; 19:6. You will notice that in every case one or more of the apostles of Jesus Christ were present. The first of three recorded instances of speaking in tongues occurred among 120 of Jesus’ disciples gathered in Jerusalem at Pentecost 33 C.E. (Acts 2:1-4) Three and a half years later, while a group of uncircumcised Italians were listening to Peter preach, they received the spirit and began “speaking with tongues and magnifying God.” (Acts 10:44-48) And 19 years after Pentecost, about 52 C.E., Paul spoke to a group in Ephesus and laid his hands upon 12 disciples. They too “began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”—Acts 19:6.
Evidently, then, in accord with Acts 8:18, with the death of the last apostle, the passing on of the gifts of the spirit would stop—including speaking in tongues. Hence, when those who had received these gifts from the apostles also passed off the earthly scene, the miraculous gift would cease. By then the Christian congregation would have had time to become well established and would have spread to many lands. The gift of tongues had served its purpose. It had been well established that the Christian congregation had God’s favor and backing. Moreover, Christians had grown in number and had been dispersed to many lands, carrying the “good news” with them. ( Compare Col 1:23) Such a view agrees with the purpose of those gifts as stated at Hebrews 2:2-4.

TODAY WE HAVE THE BIBLE
Some claim that God uses this gift when he wants to give a direct message to the people. But what message from God do we need today that Jesus Christ and the apostles did not supply for us? (2 Tim 3:16,17) The apostle Paul cautioned:: “Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond [“at variance with,” The New English Bible] what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8) Now, if an apostle or an angel should not go beyond the good news recorded in the Bible, is a charismatic personality today authorize
d to do so?
Now that the Bible is complete and widely available, we have what we need in the Word of God. It allows us to gain an accurate knowledge of Jehovah and his Son that leads to everlasting life.—John 17:3; Revelation 22:18, 19.

IS ‘SPEAKING IN TONGUES’ TO CONTINUE UNTIL THAT WHICH IS “PERFECT” COMES?
At 1 Corinthians 13:8 reference is made to several miraculous gifts—prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Verse 9 again refers to two of these gifts—knowledge and prophecy—saying: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” (KJ) Or, as RS reads: “For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect.” Then verse 10 states: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (KJ) The word “perfect” is translated from the Greek téleion, which conveys the thought of being full grown, complete, or perfect. Ro, By, and NW here render it “complete.” Notice that it is not the gift of tongues that is said to be “imperfect,” “in part,” or partial. That is said of “prophecy” and “knowledge.” In other words, even with those miraculous gifts, the early Christians had only an imperfect or partial understanding of God’s purpose. But when the prophecies would come to fulfillment, when God’s purpose would be accomplished, then “that which is perfect,” or complete, would come. So, this is obviously not discussing how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would continue.

david

October 10, 2007 at 12:12 am#67963

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi All!

1 Cor 14:
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

The above scriptures are unambiguous. They clearly show that Paul was talking about a language that was not meant to be understood by the mind.

1. Does not speak to men but to God
2. No one understands
3. In his Spirit he speaks mysterys
4. He edifies himself
5. He prays with the Spirit (Mysteries) and Prays with the mind (understanding)
6. He sings with the Spirit (Mysteries) and sings with the mind (understanding)
Those who have recieved the gift understand and have experienced the strength and Joy that comes in the use of the gift. For truly it does edify or build up.
The greek word for edifieth is, oikodomeō, which means;
1) to build a house, erect a building
a) to build (up from the foundation)
b) to restore by building, to rebuild, repair
Its the root word for, epoikodomeō, which means;
1) to build upon, build up
Found in Jude 1:20
But you, beloved, building (epoikodomeō) yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
How can one who has not recieved the gift claim to know so much about the gift?
Its like someone who has never had any children trying to council someone who has raised 5 children about parenthood.
Its like the antagonist trying to teach a believer about the Bible.
Its like someone who has never tasted a peach explaining what one taste like!

October 10, 2007 at 12:28 am#67965

Participant

WJ,
You said

Quote

How can one who has not recieved the gift claim to know so much about the gift?

Do you think Paul or Peter received every gift they taught about?

And if on cannot understand the words coming out of his mouth, how does it edify him? edify means “To instruct especially so as to encourage intellectual, moral, or spiritual improvement.” How can you instruct yourself when all you hear is gibberish? That is why Paul said

1Co 14:11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Co 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.

And when do you use your tongues (assuming you have the gift from the last post)

1Co 14:21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
1Co 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

This matches the first account in Acts when the disciples spoke in tongues. They did so for the sake of unbelievers, so that they might hear and understand the gospel message.

October 10, 2007 at 12:35 am#67967

Participant

Hi Kj:

You say:

Quote

94,

1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

First of all, the whole body is necessary and all gifts are necessary and important. We are all servants of the most High God in whatever postion we hold in the body. But we start out as babes in Christ and as we come to maturity God is able to give us one or more spiritual gifts. If we are found faithful in using what talents we have, He is able to trust us with more. If we are not going to use what He has given us with the motivation of love. Why should he give us more? God knows the motivation and intents of our heart when we pray for any of these gifts, and they will be given if we ask in accordance with his will.

Quote

Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. 2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. 3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. 4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. 5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? 6 And he said, An hundred measures F36 of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. 7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures F37 of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. 8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. 9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon F38 of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. 10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, F39 who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

You say:

Quote

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

If you desire them, that means that you do not have them at present.

And then you say:

Quote

1Co 14:13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

So without an understanding of what you are saying in tongues, it would all just be gibberish and this would be of no benefit to you.

Paul is emphasizing that if you do have the gift of tongues that you should not speak in tongues unless there is someone to interpret what you are saying. I can even interpret what I myself am saying in tongues if I have the gift of interpretation, and so Paul is saying that if I don't have the gift of interpretation or if there is no one present to interpret the tongue not to speak in tongues in the congregation. If I speak in tongues and I can't interpret. I can't benefit the church because I don't understand what I am saying.

But if I pray in tongues in my prayer closet, I am praying to God and He understands my prayer although I do not, and I am edified because I know that I will receive that which is being prayed in my behalf. No, it is not gibberish to God.

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2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth F53 him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

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15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue

God Bless

October 10, 2007 at 12:46 am#67968

Participant

94,

There really is no evidence that gifts are progressively given. There is more of a leaning towards the gifts you do have being progressively revealed. God matches the git with the disposition of the person IMO. Do you think He would give a timid, introverted person the gift of evangelism? Or might He give that person the gift of helps, giving, or mercy?

But I wonder if some gifts can be temporary. That is, given for a short time for a certain task, then gone. Who knows? Well, One knows :cool:

October 10, 2007 at 1:04 am#67971

Participant

“How is it we are hearing, each one of us, HIS OWN LANGUAGE in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:8-11)

So, is there anyone TODAY who speaks in tongues like this–in another actual language FOR THE PURPOSE of being able to spread the good news to people of other tongues.

It seems today, the gibberish that people call “speaking in tongues” is a little different. And maybe a lot different.

Again, I ask: Does anyone actually speak in different tongues (languages) in this manner?

October 10, 2007 at 1:06 am#67973

Participant

“TONGUES, THEY WILL CEASE”

–1 Cor 13:8

October 10, 2007 at 3:35 am#67984

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 10 2007,12:46)

94,

But I wonder if some gifts can be temporary. That is, given for a short time for a certain task, then gone. Who knows? Well, One knows :cool:

Hi KJ:

I know what I was and what God has made of me, and I know what he has promised me, and how he intends to use me in this last day. In other words, God can make something out a nobody, like me for example.

Some gifts can indeed be temporary in a person's life. I don't pray as much in the gift of tongues the more mature I become in Christ, but if you are saying that some of the gifts of the Spirit that were evident in the days of the Apostles were temporary and are no longer needed in the church today, no, I don't believe that is the case. In fact, I believe that as the false doctrines that are in the church are corrected, we will see God confirming His Word through the same gifts of the Spirit that were evident in the days of the Apostles.

As the old saying goes, “the proof is in the pudding”.

God Bless you as we study to show oursleves approved as workmen that need not be ashamed rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

October 10, 2007 at 4:14 am#67987

Samuel

Participant

I can tell you what right now…

If you ever get the spirit of the Holy Ghost to come on you like it did me…you won't have control of anything in you body…little long your tongue.

If that answers anything for you. It truly is Joy unspeakable and full of Glory. You really don't have any Idea what you missing…There is not a drug you can buy anywhere on this earth to make you feel even half way that good.

October 10, 2007 at 4:19 am#67988

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 10 2007,13:06)

“TONGUES, THEY WILL CEASE”

–1 Cor 13:8

Hi David:

All of the gifts of the Spirit that are in the church are for the purpose of the salvation of God's children from the consequence and they will cease when the work is done and the Lord comes for the church. Love will never cease.

You ask:

Quote

“How is it we are hearing, each one of us, HIS OWN LANGUAGE in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:8-11)

——————————————————————————–

So, is there anyone TODAY who speaks in tongues like this–in another actual language FOR THE PURPOSE of being able to spread the good news to people of other tongues.

It seems today, the gibberish that people call “speaking in tongues” is a little different. And maybe a lot different.

Again, I ask: Does anyone actually speak in different tongues (languages) in this manner?

Not to my knowledge. I don't believe that this is necessary in that the gospel has gone forth into all of the world, maybe not all but most, and there are people in virtually every country who teach God's Word in their own language. Can God still do this if it were necessary to reach someone with the gospel? There is no question that he can.

I have been in a church service where someone has spoken in a tongue that was interpreted to English for the church to understand. This was said as God speaking in a tongue to the church. I don't recall the message that was given, and I can't attest to the fact that it was God who was indeed speaking. It appeared to be genuine.

God Bless

October 10, 2007 at 5:12 am#67990

Participant

“You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)

In it's infancy, the Christian congregation needed extra help to speed things up, in this witness work which was to be done, that of declaring the magnificent things of God, the good news.

“How is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:8-11)

The reported cases when the gift of tongues accompanied the outpouring of holy spirit: Acts 2:1-4, 14; 10:44-48; 19:6.

You will notice that in every case one or more of the apostles of Jesus Christ were present.
According to Acts 8:18, “through the laying on of the hands of the apostles the spirit was given.”
Logically, then, with the death of the apostles, the transmitting of the gifts of the spirit, including the gift of tongues, ceased.
If the spirit and the gift of tongues through this spirit was “given” through the laying on of the hands of the “apostles” then when the apostles died off, how was this spirit to be given?

“. . . whether there are tongues, they will cease.” (1 Cor. 13:8)

Perhaps this is why we don't actually ever see anyone speaking in tongues the way they did back then–people hearing their own language coming out of someone who didn't actually see that language.
Such is not ever the case anymore. It seems to have ceased. And as others said, it's purpose ceased.

david

October 10, 2007 at 6:41 am#67996

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 10 2007,12:28)

WJ,
You said

Quote

How can one who has not recieved the gift claim to know so much about the gift?

Do you think Paul or Peter received every gift they taught about?

1Co 14:11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Co 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.

And when do you use your tongues (assuming you have the gift from the last post)

1Co 14:21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
1Co 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

This matches the first account in Acts when the disciples spoke in tongues. They did so for the sake of unbelievers, so that they might hear and understand the gospel message.

kejonn

kejonn, I can tell you without a doubt it is real. When I first got saved shortly after the Lord called me to preach on the streets. I saw some come to the Lord. After a couple months I miraculously recieved the gift through praying with another brother. From that day there was a new power and presence of the Lord in my life. Joy unspeakable. I would go in the streets and open my mouth and words that I had never heard came out like a river of revelation to the lost. I saw people healed, delivered, and set free. He truly is real. He is the same yesterday today and foreever!

You say…

Quote

Do you think Paul or Peter received every gift they taught about?

I believe they were baptised in the Holy Spirit and fire.

The Spirit is the giver of the gifts and can give the gift severally as he wills to any vessel that is available at any time.

Yeshua is the same yesterday today and forever and also said we would do greater works, didnt he?

Yes the Spirit can take a timid person in the remote jungels of Africa and make an evangislist out of him or her.

God could speak through a donkey why not a person?

This is the problem with the church today is that we lack in the power of God.

2 Tim 3:5
holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

Jesus told the Apostles to tarry untill they were indued with power from on high. Acts 1:4,8.

The power to become witnesses came upon them when the Holy Spirit filled them. Acts 2:1-4

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

There is no indication in Peters words this outpouring would cease. For he said…

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The outpouring will be untill the Day of the Lord come. The return of Christ.

The body of Christ more than ever needs these supernatural gifts for the end times.

Again, no one has addressed the scriptures that I and 94 have mentioned.

There are tongues where the Spirit speaks mysteries to God as 94 has ponted out.

Then there are tongues that need an interpreter.

Then there are tongues that are simply another language.

The gifts is for all who would pray and ask for them.

Blessings!

October 10, 2007 at 7:23 am#68000

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 10 2007,18:41)

When I first got saved shortly after the Lord called me to preach on the streets.

Matthew 22:9
Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.

Street ministry is the BEST! WJ, you and I have so much in common.

Jesus hung out with the sinner's – the tax collector's and drunks. Today, he would probably be down on 1st Ave. with the coke heads and meth user's. For the majority of Christians, it is a scary idea to put your life in danger and hit the streets with the gospel. I tend to believe that while we are all supposed to share the gospel, certain folks are called to this area of specific ministry (just my opinion).

All – If you have never been a part of a witnessing team that goes to inner city streets – I encourage you to assemble a group together and GO! Jesus will already be there…..

October 10, 2007 at 2:21 pm#68006