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Hi Tow,
Christ did not suicide.
He did not take his own life.
He was the lamb of God sent to take away the sins of the world.Just as the priest goes into the temple and offers a blood sacrifice annually on behalf of the sin of the people he became that sacrifice for us and was also the appointed priest. We too can enter now the temple through his torn flesh – the temple curtain.
(1) Jesus was a man, not a lamb (2) if Jesus was supposed to symbolize a lamb for a sin offering, he should have been a female (Lev 4:32, Lev 5:6) (3) since Jesus' blood was not placed on an altar the sacrifice is of no effect (Lev 17:3-4).
All of this is according to Torah. Since G-d does not violate His own Torah, then Jesus could never be a sin offering according to Torah. There again you have shown that Jesus was the son of some other god, not the G-d of all flesh, YHVH.
Hi Tow,
Jesus the Christ was the passover lamb.
Exodus 12:5
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:The Lord of the Sabbath entered the heavenly temple.
Ah, so if Jesus was merely the passover lamb, then you must stop claiming that his blood atones for sins. The first paschal lamb did not atone for sins, it protected the Jews as YHVH passed over. From that point on, the paschal lamb was nothing more than an act of remembrance and honor to YHVH.
Thus you are saying that Christians truly have no means to atone for sins. Jesus was just a form of remembrance. With one post you crumbled Christian theology.
Hi Tow,
Indeed Christ was our passover lamb and we are safe by his blood.
He was also the lamb sacrificed for the sins of the world.
You cannot accept this as you have no faith in the Son.But why would a true Jew attack the faith of others?
Is that the behaviour of a true son of Israel?
Ah but you are not a Jew.Their sacrifices do nothing for gentiles such as yourself.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 20 2007,03:58) [/quote] Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,01:21) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,11:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,11:17) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,00:22) For hundreds of years, Christians killed and persecuted Jews. Hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews have died at the hands of Christians. Knowing this, how can one say the Christian tree is a good tree if for so many years it brought forth such bad fruit?
TowAnd the Hebrew Jews also conquered lands and killed many innocent woman and children.
So is their fruit any better? What about the Jews and Palistinians today, killing each other!
Quote
The Jews kill Palestinians for survival. Should they lie down in the street and allow the Palestinians to just kill them and take their land?Whose land was it from the beginning? I am not blaming the Jews for defending themselves. My point is the Jews killed many innocent woman and children all in the name of YHWH.
Yes they did, and I for one do not believe that the Creator G-d is so weak and petty as to use humans to do his 'dirty work'. This is just an instance of man wanting to say he was guided to do violence by the will of G-d. So sad really.
Quote So accusing so called Christians for not having fruit is a straw, especially since the teachings of the GT is to Love and turn the other cheek. Quote
Can you show me where such love was expressed historically? There are a few examples, but those typically accompany a desire to convert the ones who are extended kindness. Thus the motive is not pure.Why should I have to go outside of the GT to history. The point is the GT does not teach killing Jews. Yet you insist that so called Christians killed them.
Quote Also, where do you think this 'so-called Christians' got their anti-judaic ideas from? The same GT that teaches love. There are conflicting themes in your GT Show me conflicting themes. The GT is not anti-Judaic. The GT speaks of the fulfillment of the jadaic in a New Covenant. A covenant that introduces new commandments, namely Love! Show me this evil hatred for the Jews in the NT and killing of the Jews.
Quote You cant find any teachings of Yeshua or the Apostles that call Christians to kill anyone. So those that did were not Christians or followers of Christ. Quote
Yet we find many teachings that accuse the Jews of being guilty of deicide, children of 'satan', and cursed. That is all those who followed and called themselves Christians needed to persecute the 'cursed' Jews.No. What you find is Yeshua speaking judgment against the “Pharisees and Saducees, hypocrites that were fleecing their own people through money changing, and putting heavy burdens on the people from their “Oral law”. Its ridiculous for you to accuse true practicing Christians for persecuting the Jews. So let me see, if I accuse someone for being a “Hypocrite” and someone shoots that Hypocrite in my name, then I am guilty of their death? Ludicrous!!! The GT dosnt teach the killing of Jews. So why don’t you move on to something that has substance.
Quote Quote Also, do you not believe that Jesus and YHVH are part of your trinity? By extension then you must admit that the Tanakh speaks of G-d commanding the Jews to kill those people. I personally do not believe such of G-d but see it as the willingness of man to attribute their desire to kill and conquer to G-d. Well if you dont believe it was a mandate of YHWH then you dont believe in much of the Torah or the Tanakh.
God is not only Love, but he is also a God of judgment.
Quote Then why would He need puny man to carry this out? He does not. If He creates, He can take away. He does not need man to do His 'dirty work'. But yet the Torah which you say you follow and believe in, clearly shows YHWH using ungodly nations to chastise his people. Do I need to show you.? I thought you came here to give us Biblical knowledge? But so far it looks like you don’t even believe much of the Torah or Tanakh. How are we to take you seriously?[/quote]
Quote Much of the Torah and the Tanakh is YHWH punishing wicked men or nations or using those wicked nations to punish his own people. What do you think of that? Quote I think that people wanted to defend their evil actions by claiming G-d commanded them to do so. Just as those who said they were Christians persecuted and killed Jews. Whether you say they were Christians or not is irrelavent. They said they were and they have just as much right to claim it as you have. Quote Just as Christians for hundreds of years killed Jews. Those Christians believed they were doing so because it is what G-d wanted them to do.
Again, they were not following the GT, for there is no such teaching to be found there. so they were not Christians at all.
Quote And again, you do not have a right to categorize them as they might say the same of you if they knew you. And what gives you the right to put all professing Christians in the same boat?
Quote The fact is, Christianity is full of finger-pointers and dissension because of the conflicting messages found in the GT. Protestants call Pencostals lost, the RCC says they are the true church, Mormons and JWs think they have the real truth, and each one of you makes qualifications on who is or isn't a Christian. The only time you are all Christians is when you want to put up the big numbers. But inside you are fighting each other and arguing over who is going to hell or heaven. Straw!!! What about Judaism? Look at the history of the Jewish people. They were always fighting each other and even killing each other. This “Biblical knowledge” is also found in the Torah..
Quote Many Christians have died for their faith also. Quote Many Muslems have died for their faith. So this claim means nothing. Exactly, just as so-called Christians killing other Christians or Jews means nothing against True Christianity, the followers of Yeshua and the GT.
Quote Quote True Christians dont believe in such. There is much done in the name of Christianity which is not Christian at all. Quote The standard Christian apologetic response. Yet you fail to see that Christians have killed more Jews in history in the name of their god than any other. Yes of course it is a standard response and a good one. For their is no such teaching in the GT for killing Jews.
So again they were not followers of Christ, nor were they Christians.
Quote They said they were. They had the same GT you had. Since you are not the judge of men, then Christianity is still the force behind most of the anti-judaic actions for the past 1900+ years. You say of me that “I am not the judge of men” yet you condemn all of Christianity for killing and persecuting the Jews. Do you even realize how ridiculous you are sounding?
Quote Quote And there is a difference! While Jews did kill others according to Tanakh, they killed those who had pagan gods. Yet with Christianity, we have the greatest example of people killing people who supposedly worship the SAME G-d! Talk about apologetics!!! You are talking out of two sides of your mouth. Its Okay for Jews to kill people because they didnt worship YHWH but some other god?
Whats the difference?
Quote I never said it was OK, I just pointed out that the ones the Jews killed served pagan gods. Christians persecuted Jews and they say they worship the same G-d that Jews do. Yet this cannot be substantiated because YHVH is not found in the GT, while Jesus and 'god the father' are no where to be found in Tanakh. Its really as simple as that. This is of course is your opinion. But you have closed your eyes to the millions of Jews who have accepted the Messiah. Shall I list all of the websites again. If I do then of course you will become their “Judge” and say they are not Jews.
Quote Quote How can this be, WJ? Do you think G-d commanded those people to kill the Jews? Then why did they claim as much? No I dont think God told them to. But you sound desperate to make it so!
Quote No, I'm just merely pointing out that these people called themselves Christians. Whether you think they were or not is irrelavant. They said they were and history records this as fact. Live with it. We are talking about the GT. If history shows men going away from the teachings of the GT and Yeshua, then these men are not Christians. Are you serious? I guess Hitler because he said he favoured Christians then he was a Christian by killing Jews? Get real Tow.
Quote Quote Why did Calvin and Martin Luther develop such a hatred for the Jews? I’ll tell you why. When Christians fail to convert someone, they then proceed to damn them to hellfire. In modern days, the damnation is verbal. In times past, they literally burned them, bringing the hellfire early so
to speak. If they couldn’t kill them they persecuted them. If they couldn’t do that, they just said false things about them, which is exactly what Martin Luther and Calvin did.Do you have any evidence that Calvin and Martin Luther killed anyone? Its one thing to make claims against someone because they believe they are in error, but its another thing to kill them.
Quote I do not accuse Martin Luther or Calvin of killing, just of hating Jews and spreading viscious lies about them because they failed to convert them to Christianity. Both of these men are seen as pillars of Christianity and they despised Jews. Again, can a good tree bring forth such bad fruit? Really? I hear your “Judgment” of these men, but could you please show me some evidence of their hate for Jews? Where is it written by their own words they dispised the Jews? Empty accusations with no proof.
Quote So again, the killing was not by true Christians following Yeshuas teachings or the teaching of the GT. Quote You really have your head in the sand if you think that Christianity has not been the greatest single cause of anti-Semitism in the Common Era. No. I think that you have your head in the sand to believe that true Christianity is anti-semetic.
Do you really think Hitler was a Christian?
Quote After doing a bit of study, I am revising the accusation of anti-semitic to anti-judaic. That is, Christianity does not hate Jews for their heritage, they hate Judaism. That is quite obvious from the GT, and Paul was the number one leader in that area. There is no scripture in the GT that shows hate for the Torah or its laws. Christians believe that many of the laws were fulfilled in Yeshua and his death. You speak of hate so much, but the only hate I see is from you toward followers of Christ or converted Jews like Paul..
Quote As far as Hitler, I have not mentioned him at all. You are bringing him up. But since you did, here ar a few quotes for you: And what does your quotes prove, that all Christianity followed Hitler? I am beginning to wonder about your sincerity. You are not even looking at the whole of history but picking and choosing what you want. Here is some quotes for you about Hitler and that era…
Notable Lutheran leaders such as Martin Niemoller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer also had a hand in crafting the Barmen Declaration. These theologians were devoted to belief in the inspiration and authority of both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament. They were opposed to Hitler and his perversion of the Scriptures.
Conservative German church leaders such as Bonhoeffer publicly denounced Hitler and even plotted his assassination. As a result, he and many in the Confessing Church were executed. But the resistance was not limited to theologians and church leaders.
Yad Vashem contains the records of over 18,000 individuals deemed “Righteous Gentiles.” These men and women risked their own safety and that of their families to oppose the Nazis and save Jewish lives. One of the most well known among them was Corrie ten Boom, whose story was told in the book The Hiding Place. She and her family held to a conservative Christian theology and their faith led them to risk hiding Jews in their home. Eventually they ended up in a concentration camp. Others, like Diet Eman, joined the underground and fought in the Dutch resistance, risking their lives to stop Hitler and save our people from his evil.
I will also show you my source…
http://www.appleofhiseye.org/Whatdoy….lt.aspxTow, you really need to do more study about Church history or the history of the Jews before you make all these bold claims that carry no weight, and come here to gives us your “Biblical Knowledge”!!!
Quote Quote Can you show me in the NT where such a message is taught? Loving your neighbor as yourself is taught.
Your argument is fallacious!
Quote
The book of Acts is full of supposed instances where Jews killed and persecuted Christians but such actions are not found anywhere outside of the GT. Its amazing how much is found in the GT that is not supported outside of its pages that ends up becoming ‘truth’ for Christians.For instance, the GT has Jews indiscriminately picking up stones to either try to kill someone or actually doing it. However, things like this did not happen. People who were to be put to death under Jewish law had to be brought before the Sanhedrin. Also, even in the GT the truth that Jews were not allowed to carry out the death penalty while under Roman rule proves that the Jews just didn’t kill Christians left and right.
Such actions find no support in history outside of the GT and perhaps a few church fathers who obviously had an agenda to continue the influence of the GT writings. No historian recorded the persecution of Christians by Jews while there seemed to be plenty historians who recorded persecution of Jews by Christians.
So while you think Jesus preached a message of love, there was also a message of hatred towards Jews that permeated the GT.
No. The message was not hate and you have no scriptural evidence of that. The message was a warning against the hypocrites, Pharasees and Sadusees.
Quote Sorry, but if you read the passages, it says 'Jews' with no such qualifications. Therefore, Christians from that point on had all the 'proof' they needed to condemn and persecute ALL Jews because that is what many passages in the GT said: 'the Jews'. But where is the word “Hate”?
Okay so someone says “Abortion” is wrong, and starts an organization to save the lives of unborn children, then someone decides that they will just blow up the clinics and kill the doctors. Does that mean those who are trying to save the unborn children through coercion or legal means is responsib
le for the lives of those who the obvious evil person that blew up the clinics, killed? I can’t believe you are making this argument!Quote That particular phrase is found 62 times in the gospel of John alone, with the bulk of these having 'the Jews' being cast in a negative light. A negative light? Even the Torah says all have sinned. Have you even looked at the Torah and all the prophesys by the prophets against the Jews for their own wickedness? The many times God sent his own people into captivity because of their rebellion? Really whos to say the Torah is not responsible for the killing of the Jews?
The message is not just for Jews but for all men to repent.
Quote You also forget that all of the Followers of Christ were Jews and the writers of the GT also were Jews. Quote No longer. One by one they cast off their Judaism to become Christians. So while you say they were, they made the conscious decision to abandon their faith and follow a man instead of YHVH. There you go judging their hearts again. You really should talk to some Messianic Jews and you will see they have not cast off their heritage to become Christian. They still believe as Christians do, in YHWH.
Quote It seems that you have as much hate for “Christians” as you claim Christians have for Jews. To that I say you are wrong.
Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews loved Israel, the Jews..
Rom 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Quote The difference is that Paul taught that such salvation was in Jesus when Tanakh says differently. Tanakh does not teach that people should put their trust in a man but G-d alone. I know you think that Jesus IS G-d, but even within your own religion there is no solid agreement on that. And what makes you an authority on Judaism to place yourself above the witness of Paul, and the many other GT writers and historians and commentators who disagree with you? Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and taught by the best of his day.
You are not even a Jew, and you put yourself above them!
You should reconsider your mission in representing the Jews, for even the unsaved Jew would disagree with a lot of your rethoric.
Hi Tow,
Blood needed to be shed.
No more precious blood to God than that of His beloved Monogenes Son.11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
Hi Tow,
Did you think the lapsed catholic Luther and the others who broke off and formed daughters of the Whore of Babylon have any part in the inheritance of the Sons of God?Your view of history does not show the hidden ones, those who belong to Him, the living God
He knows them and they are safe.Quote For hundreds of years, Christians killed and persecuted Jews. Hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews have died at the hands of Christians. Knowing this, how can one say the Christian tree is a good tree if for so many years it brought forth such bad fruit? Yes, many of them are not really Christians (followers of Christ.) Jesus himself fortold many “weeds” (son's of the wicked one) would overtake the “wheat” (sons of the kingdom). He of course also said, shortly after speaking of the rotten tree being burned, that many would say “lord, Lord” thinking they were following Jesus, but really, they weren't.
david
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,15:27) Hi Tow,
Indeed Christ was our passover lamb and we are safe by his blood.
He was also the lamb sacrificed for the sins of the world.
You cannot accept this as you have no faith in the Son.Son, not daughter. The lamb sacrificed for sins is to be female. Another strike against Jesus.
Quote But why would a true Jew attack the faith of others?
Is that the behaviour of a true son of Israel?
Ah but you are not a Jew.Ah you are correct.
Quote Their sacrifices do nothing for gentiles such as yourself.
What sacrifices? They haven't had a sacrificial system officially since the 1st century CE.Hi TOW,
You should not write the rules for how God does things.
You are not greater than He.
And how do you hope to be saved
or is intellectual wrestling satisfaction enough?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,15:38) Quote
Can you show me where such love was expressed historically? There are a few examples, but those typically accompany a desire to convert the ones who are extended kindness. Thus the motive is not pure.Why should I have to go outside of the GT to history. The point is the GT does not teach killing Jews. Yet you insist that so called Christians killed them.
I'm sorry but history shows that it was Christians who killed and persecuted many Jews.
Quote Quote Also, where do you think this 'so-called Christians' got their anti-judaic ideas from? The same GT that teaches love. There are conflicting themes in your GT Show me conflicting themes. The GT is not anti-Judaic. The GT speaks of the fulfillment of the jadaic in a New Covenant. A covenant that introduces new commandments, namely Love! Show me this evil hatred for the Jews in the NT and killing of the Jews.
I already showed you such passages. Please re-read. I shall not repeat myself like so many have here in the 'trinity' thread.
Quote Quote You cant find any teachings of Yeshua or the Apostles that call Christians to kill anyone. So those that did were not Christians or followers of Christ. Quote
Yet we find many teachings that accuse the Jews of being guilty of deicide, children of 'satan', and cursed. That is all those who followed and called themselves Christians needed to persecute the 'cursed' Jews.No. What you find is Yeshua speaking judgment against the “Pharisees and Saducees, hypocrites that were fleecing their own people through money changing, and putting heavy burdens on the people from their “Oral law”. Its ridiculous for you to accuse true practicing Christians for persecuting the Jews. So let me see, if I accuse someone for being a “Hypocrite” and someone shoots that Hypocrite in my name, then I am guilty of their death? Ludicrous!!! The GT dosnt teach the killing of Jews. So why don’t you move on to something that has substance.
I will move on when the phrase 'the Jews' is removed from the GT in a negative manner because such a phrase does not merely highlight Pharisees, Saduccees, and other groups but all Jews. Sorry, but your book says 'the Jews', particularly the gospel of John.
Quote Quote Quote Also, do you not believe that Jesus and YHVH are part of your trinity? By extension then you must admit that the Tanakh speaks of G-d commanding the Jews to kill those people. I personally do not believe such of G-d but see it as the willingness of man to attribute their desire to kill and conquer to G-d. Well if you dont believe it was a mandate of YHWH then you dont believe in much of the Torah or the Tanakh.
God is not only Love, but he is also a God of judgment.
Quote Then why would He need puny man to carry this out? He does not. If He creates, He can take away. He does not need man to do His 'dirty work'. But yet the Torah which you say you follow and believe in, clearly shows YHWH using ungodly nations to chastise his people. Do I need to show you.? I thought you came here to give us Biblical knowledge? But so far it looks like you don’t even believe much of the Torah or Tanakh. How are we to take you seriously?
[/quote]
Where do you see a time where I said I am here to bring you biblical knowledge? I am here because Christianity is a religion falsely based on Tanakh. My presence here is to refute that.
Quote Quote Much of the Torah and the Tanakh is YHWH punishing wicked men or nations or using those wicked nations to punish his own people. What do you think of that? Quote I think that people wanted to defend their evil actions by claiming G-d commanded them to do so. Just as those who said they were Christians persecuted and killed Jews. Whether you say they were Christians or not is irrelavent. They said they were and they have just as much right to claim it as you have. Quote Just as Christians for hundreds of years killed Jews. Those Christians believed they were doing so because it is what G-d wanted them to do.
Again, they were not following the GT, for there is no such teaching to be found there. so they were not Christians at all.
Quote And again, you do not have a right to categorize them as they might say the same of you if they knew you. And what gives you the right to put all professing Christians in the same boat?
Because history records that the actions were carried out by Christians. Speak to historians, not me.
Quote Quote The fact is, Christianity is full of finger-pointers and dissension because of the conflicting messages found in the GT. Protestants call Pencostals lost, the RCC says they are the true church, Mormons and JWs think they have the real truth, and each one of you makes qualifications on who is or isn't a Christian. The only time you are all Christians is when you want to put up the big numbers. But inside you are fighting each other and arguing over who is going to hell or heaven. Straw!!! What about Judaism? Look at the history of the Jewish people. They were always fighting each other and even killing each other. This “Biblical knowledge” is also found in the Torah..
Yes, the kingdom split, but it was not over who was more 'righteous' or who had more 'truth'. The wicked ones went their way, those that continued to walk in YHVH's ways another. Those were the two sides. In Christianity there are hundreds to thousands of different sides.
Quote Quote Many Christians have died for their faith also. Quote Many Muslems have died for their faith. So this claim means nothing. Exactly, just as so-called Christians killing other Christians or Jews means nothing against True Christianity, the followers of Yeshua and the GT.
Quote Quote True Christians dont believe in such. There is much done in the name of Christianity which is not Christian at all. Quote The standard Christian apologetic response. Yet you fail to see that Christians have killed more Jews in history in the name of their god than any other. Yes of course it is a standard response and a good one. For their is no such teaching in the GT for killing Jews.
So again they were not followers of Christ, nor were they Christians.
Quote They said they were. They had the same GT you had. Since you are not the judge of men, then Christianity is still the force behind most of the anti-judaic actions for the past 1900+ years. You say of me that “I am not the judge of men” yet you condemn all of Christianity for killing and persecuting the Jews. Do you even realize how ridiculous you are sounding?
I'm just using your own scriptures to prove a point. Jesus said a good tree would produce good fruit, and a bad tree, bad fruit. All of this persecution and killing was bad fruit thus by Jesus' words, Christianity is a bad tree.
Quote Quote Quote And there is a difference! While Jews did kill others according to Tanakh, they killed those who had pagan gods. Yet with Christianity, we have the greatest example of people killing people who supposedly worship the SAME G-d! Talk about apologetics!!! You are talking out of two sides of your mouth. Its Okay for Jews to kill people because they didnt worship YHWH but some other god?
Whats the difference?
Quote I never said it was OK, I just pointed out that the ones the Jews killed served pagan gods. Christians persecuted Jews and they say they worship the same G-d that Jews do. Yet this cannot be substantiated because YHVH is not found in the GT, while Jesus and 'god the father' are no where to be found in Tanakh. Its really as simple as that. This is of course is your opinion. But you have closed your eyes to the millions of Jews who have accepted the Messiah. Shall I list all of the websites again. If I do then of course you will become their “Judge” and say they are not Jews.
If you really dig deep into those organizations you'd find the facade. Most of them are full of evangelicals who were never Jewish to begin with. The use deceptive techniques to prey upon those Jews who are non-observant of Judaism.
For starters, check out The Real Jews for Jesus
And once they convert, they are no longer Jews. Ask any non-messianic rabbi.
Quote Quote Quote How can this be, WJ? Do you think G-d commanded those people to kill the Jews? Then why did they claim as much? No I dont think God told them to. But you sound desperate to make it so!
Quote No, I'm just merely pointing out that these people called themselves Christians. Whether you think they were or not is irrelavant. They said they were and history records this as fact. Live with it. We are talking about the GT. If history shows men going away from the teachings of the GT and Yeshua, then these men are not Chris
tians. Are you serious? I guess Hitler because he said he favoured Christians then he was a Christian by killing Jews? Get real Tow.We are not necessarily discussing the GT, we are supposed to be discussing the bad fruit of the Christian tree. Whatever the roots, the tree is corrupt.
Even worse, Christians killed other Christians as well. Trinitarian Christians killed and persecuted many unitarians, arians, etc. just because they did not say Jesus was divine.
More bad fruit.
Quote Quote Quote Why did Calvin and Martin Luther develop such a hatred for the Jews? I’ll tell you why. When Christians fail to convert someone, they then proceed to damn them to hellfire. In modern days, the damnation is verbal. In times past, they literally burned them, bringing the hellfire early so to speak. If they couldn’t kill them they persecuted them. If they couldn’t do that, they just said false things about them, which is exactly what Martin Luther and Calvin did. Do you have any evidence that Calvin and Martin Luther killed anyone? Its one thing to make claims against someone because they believe they are in error, but its another thing to kill them.
Quote I do not accuse Martin Luther or Calvin of killing, just of hating Jews and spreading viscious lies about them because they failed to convert them to Christianity. Both of these men are seen as pillars of Christianity and they despised Jews. Again, can a good tree bring forth such bad fruit? Really? I hear your “Judgment” of these men, but could you please show me some evidence of their hate for Jews? Where is it written by their own words they dispised the Jews? Empty accusations with no proof.
You really don't get out much do you. You're posting on an internet forum and yet you don't seem to check things out using that same internet.
Martin Luther wrote something called “On the Jews and Their Lies”. The title speaks volumes. Here are some quotes:
========================================
First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians.Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.
Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like.
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest.
Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.
=================================You can read the rest of Martin Luther's slimy work at http://www.outreachjudaism.org/luther1543new.htm .
I will get you some juicy Calvin stuff later.
Quote Quote So again, the killing was not by true Christians following Yeshuas teachings or the teaching of the GT. Quote You really have your head in the sand if you think that Christianity has not been the greatest single cause of anti-Semitism in the Common Era. No. I think that you have your head in the sand to believe that true Christianity is anti-semetic.
Do you really think Hitler was a Christian?
Quote After doing a bit of study, I am revising the accusation of anti-semitic to anti-judaic. That is, Christianity does not hate Jews for their heritage, they hate Judaism. That is quite obvious from the GT, and Paul was the number one leader in that area. There is no scripture in the GT that shows hate for the Torah or its laws. Christians believe that many of the laws were fulfilled in Yeshua and his death. You speak of hate so much, but the only hate I see is from you toward followers of Christ or converted Jews like Paul..
I don't hate Christians, I just dislike their religion. It claims YHVH as its G-d yet He is not found in the pages of GT. The best you could do is claim another god and keep your Jesus and then leave Jews and those who believe in YHVH alone.
Quote Quote As far as Hitler, I have not mentioned him at all. You are bringing him up. But since you did, here ar a few quotes for you: And what does your quotes prove, that all Christianity followed Hitler? I am beginning to wonder about your sincerity. You are not even looking at the whole of history but picking and choosing what you want. Here is some quotes for you about Hitler and that era…
Notable Lutheran leaders such as Martin Niemoller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer also had a hand in crafting the Barmen Declaration. These theologians were devoted to belief in the inspiration and authority of both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament. They were opposed to Hitler and his perversion of the Scriptures.
Conservative German church leaders such as Bonhoeffer publicly denounced Hitler and even plotted his assassination. As a result, he and many in the Confessing Church were executed. But the resistance was not limited to theologians and church leaders.
Yad Vashem contains the records of over 18,000 individuals deemed “Righteous Gentiles.” These men and women risked their own safety and that of their families to oppose the Nazis and save Jewish lives. One of the most well known among them was Corrie ten Boom, whose story was told in the book The Hiding Place. She and her family held to a conservative Christian theology and their faith led them to risk hiding Jews in their home. Eventually they ended up in a concentration camp. Others, like Diet Eman, joined the underground and fought in the Dutch resistance, risking their lives to stop Hitler and save our people from his evil.
I will also show you my source…
http://www.appleofhiseye.org/Whatdoy….lt.aspxI don't deny there were and are very good Christians, just are there truly are good Muslims, Buddhists, taoists, and even atheists. Its called 'loving your fellow man' and it is not unique to any religion. But it is well established that the roots of anti-judaism is rooted in Christianity and the GT was the source.
Quote Tow, you really need to do more study about Church history or the history of the Jews before you make all these bold claims that carry no weight, and come here to gives us your “Biblical Knowledge”!!! Seems you need to do some yourself and remove your rose-colored glasses. Your church has a very bloody history of intolerance.
Quote Quote Quote Can you show me in the NT where such a message is taught? Loving your neighbor as yourself is taught.
Your argument is fallacious!
Quote
The book of Acts is full of supposed instances where Jews killed and persecuted Christians but such actions are not found anywhere outside of the GT. Its amazing how much is found in the GT that is not supported outside of its pages that ends up becoming ‘truth’ for Christians.For instance, the GT has Jews indiscriminately picking up stones to either try to kill someone or actually doing it. However, things like this did not happen. People who were to be put to death under Jewish law had to be brought before the Sanhedrin. Also, even in the GT the truth that Jews were not allowed to carry out the death penalty while under Roman rule proves that the Jews just didn’t kill Christians left and right.
Such actions find no support in history outside of the GT and perhaps a few church fathers who obviously had an agenda to continue the influence of the GT writings. No historian recorded the persecution of Christians by Jews while there seemed to be plenty historians who recorded persecution of Jews by Christians.
So while you think Jesus preached a message of love, there was also a message of hatred towards Jews that permeated the GT.
No. The message was not hate and you have no scriptural evidence of that. The message was a warning against the hypocrites, Pharasees and Sadusees.
Quote Sorry, but if you read the passages, it says 'Jews' with no such qualifications. Therefore, Christians from that point on had all the 'proof' they needed to condemn and persecute ALL Jews because that is what many passages in the GT said: 'the Jews'. But where is the word “Hate”?
It doesn't have to have the word spelled out, it just has to start the attitude that Jews were a cursed race. The ones who follwoed took care of the rest, and as we say, its history. Burn the history books if you don't like what you read.
Quote Okay so someone says “Abortion” is wrong, and starts an organization to save the lives of unborn children, then someone decides that they will just blow up the clinics and kill the doctors. Does that mean those who are trying to save the unborn children through coercion or legal means is responsible for the lives of those who the obvious evil person that blew up the clinics, killed? I can’t believe you are making this argument! Those are splinter fanatics. History shows that that anti-judaism was the norm in the early years of Gentile Christianity.
Quote Quote That particular phrase is found 62 times in the gospel of John alone, with the bulk of these having 'the Jews' being cast in a negative light. A negative light? Even the Torah says all have sinned. Have you even looked at the Torah and all the prophesys by the prophets against the Jews for their own wickedness? The many times God sent his own people into captivity because of their rebellion? Really whos to say the Torah is not responsible for the killing of the Jews?
The only one to say that is the Christian who is ashamed of the past of Christianity and is looking for a scape-goat. Congratulations, you are one of those Christians.
By the way, how does it feel to be Judas? After all, Judas was the 'evil' apostle who was but a pawn in your god's plan, right? So if you are saying that all of the Jews being persecuted and killed by Christians is part of G-d's plan, Christianity is the new Judas.
Quote The message is not just for Jews but for all men to repent. Quote You also forget that all of the Followers of Christ were Jews and the writers of the GT also were Jews. Quote No longer. One by one they cast off their Judaism to become Christians. So while you say they were, they made the conscious decision to abandon their faith and follow a man instead of YHVH. There you go judging their hearts again. You really should talk to some Messianic Jews and you will see they have not cast off their heritage to become Christian. They still believe as Christians do, in YHWH.
No, you should listen to Jewish rabbis who will tell you that conversion to Christianity is the death of a Jewish soul. Christians cannot be Jews and vice versa.
Quote Quote It seems that you have as much hate for “Christians” as you claim Christians have for Jews. To that I say you are wrong.
Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews loved Israel, the Jews..
Rom 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.Quote The difference is that Paul taught that such salvation was in Jesus when Tanakh says differently. Tanakh does not teach that people should put their trust in a man but G-d alone. I know you think that Jesus IS G-d, but even within your own religion there is no solid agreement on that. And what makes you an authority on Judaism to place yourself above the witness of Paul, and the many other GT writers and historians and commentators who disagree with you? Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and taught by the best of his day.
So says the GT. Paul was a temple guard who supposedly killed Christians then met satan on the road to Damascus. Even his new Christian 'brothers' were wary of him and that is why he went out on his own. Pauline Christianity is NOT what Jesus taught.
Quote You are not even a Jew, and you put yourself above them! When Paul became a Christian, he was no longer a Jew. End of that story.
Quote You should reconsider your mission in representing the Jews, for even the unsaved Jew would disagree with a lot of your rethoric.
Then invite some over. Real Jews, not messyanic Jew wannabes.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,15:39) Hi Tow,
Blood needed to be shed.
No more precious blood to God than that of His beloved Monogenes Son.11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
Many Christians don't know how to read in context. The verse you quoted is about the prohibition of ingesting blood!================================
Lev 17:10 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people.
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.
Lev 17:12 Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
================================I find it interesting that you continue to bring up passages from Torah that further degrade your Jesus.
Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
In Torah, YHVH says that ingesting blood will result in people being cut off. Yet, Jesus tells his disciples that they must drink his blood to have life, the opposite of what G-d tells the children!!
So sorry, Lev 17:11 has nothing to do with what is neccessary for atonement and everything to do with the prohibition of ingesting blood. Yes, blood was prescribed but there are many other ways.
You must have set under too many pastors in your life, you don't seem to know how to read the bible in context.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,16:04) Hi Tow,
Did you think the lapsed catholic Luther and the others who broke off and formed daughters of the Whore of Babylon have any part in the inheritance of the Sons of God?Your view of history does not show the hidden ones, those who belong to Him, the living God
He knows them and they are safe.
So how does this compare with the verse that started this whole thread?Luk 6:43 “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit,
The Christian tree cannot bear both, it either bears good or bad according to your Jesus. Since so much bad is recorded, perhaps you should find another religion with less condemning statements.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,16:19) Hi TOW,
You should not write the rules for how God does things.
You are not greater than He.
And how do you hope to be saved
or is intellectual wrestling satisfaction enough?
I'm not. You can find the rules in Torah. Your GT cannot override Torah.Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.
Thus, your GT violates Torah by adding and taking away from Torah.
Yes both Jews, Christians and even Muslims serving the God of this world and following his examples in the Old Testament do go around killing everyone.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,15:23) You guys make many excuses for those who called themselves Christians but yet you won\\\'t own up to where they received their influence: the Christian Greek text (GT). It is very anti-judaic (not necessarily anti-semitic per se), especially the gospel of John. Paul wasn\\\'t much better.
Tow.Those who call themselves Christians and murder cannot be Christians. Because you know them by their fruit, not by what they say they are.
As for the so-called anti-jewish sentiment in scripture, well as I said before, given your way of judging, you have to say that the OT is anti-egyptian, anti-babylonian, anti-woman, anti-man.
Tow, a record of history is just that. If a people or person did something wrong, then that is not bias or anti. It is just truth.
The New Testament has a huge respect for the natural branches. But it also tells the truth with the shunning of their messiah.
Is it an accident that the Jews were scattered and persecuted not too long after they rejected their messiah?
Tow you just see bias because you are bias. But if you were true, you would see truth.
Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 20 2007,11:03) Yes both Jews, Christians and even Muslims serving the God of this world and following his examples in the Old Testament do go around killing everyone.
SOL.Evolutionists kill people. Think Adolph Hitler.
Librarians kill people.
Drunk drivers kill people.There will always be a percentage of people from all genders, races, languages, religions, classes, that kill people.
I could make the same argument you do with Rich people kill, or poor people kill.
People kill people, SOL. That proves nothing except that man is a sinner and anyone can sin.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2007,18:03) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,15:23) You guys make many excuses for those who called themselves Christians but yet you won\\\'t own up to where they received their influence: the Christian Greek text (GT). It is very anti-judaic (not necessarily anti-semitic per se), especially the gospel of John. Paul wasn\\\'t much better.
Tow.Those who call themselves Christians and murder cannot be Christians. Because you know them by their fruit, not by what they say they are.
As for the so-called anti-jewish sentiment in scripture, well as I said before, given your way of judging, you have to say that the OT is anti-egyptian, anti-babylonian, anti-woman, anti-man.
There aren't any babylonians around so no big deal. And yes, the Tanakh is anti-egyptian as far as the Egyptians who enslaved the Jews are concerned. Yet people don't seem to hate the Egyptians today because of it like many still dislike Jews.
Quote Tow, a record of history is just that. If a people or person did something wrong, then that is not bias or anti. It is just truth. The New Testament has a huge respect for the natural branches. But it also tells the truth with the shunning of their messiah.
Sorry but no one here has forwarded a real messianic prophecy fulfilled by Jesus so he is not the Jewish messiah. He is a pagan savior.
Quote Is it an accident that the Jews were scattered and persecuted not too long after they rejected their messiah? No, because (1) Jesus was not the messiah because he did not fulfill any of the messianic prophecies and (2) the scattering of Jews is spoken of in many places in Tanakh and it has absolutely nothing to do with rejecting King Messiah. There is no talk of rejection of the King Messiah found anywhere in the pages of Tanakh. If you want to read the prophecy of Jesus and Christianity, read Daniel 11. Dan 11:14 is about Jesus. Towards the end of the chapter, you will read of Constantine and the form of Christianity established at Nicea which is the most prevalent form today.
Quote Tow you just see bias because you are bias. But if you were true, you would see truth.
Is that why there are almost a 1000 pages (more now?) on the trinity because all of you Christians have the truth and none are biased?
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