The False Prophet; who and why

Participant

Hi Georg,
Why do you read two where there is one?

January 9, 2009 at 10:58 pm#117036

Participant

Nick

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This is Israel, the nation, Christs first bride, OT.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is spiritual Israel, the saints, Christs new bride, NT. The Israelites were not persecuted for 1260 years, the saints were by the little horn.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Notice, three and a half years equal 1260 days- years.
The nation Israel, or to be correct, the house of Judah, were already serving a 2520 year punishment, beginning in 606 BC.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This is speaking of physical Israel, the man child is Jesus.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

This is speaking of the saints, spiritual Israel. The flood with which he tried to destroy her was the false doctrine of Antichrist.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep (have) the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is physical Israel again, the remnant of her seed; the Jews scattered all over the world.
I hope this makes it better for you to see the difference of the two woman.

Georg

January 9, 2009 at 11:04 pm#117037

Participant

Quote (Tiffany @ Jan. 09 2009,21:46)

Nick

Rev. 12 is speaking of the two brides of Christ. Physical Israel, the nation, of the OT; spiritual Israel, the saints, of the NT.

Georg

Hi Georg and NicK:

It appears that the woman in Revelation 12 thru verse 4 is speaking of the Israel of God from the Nation of Israel, that is the Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah during his ministry.

Verse 5 speaks of Jesus acension into heaven to this throne at the right had of God.

Verse 6 speaks of the persecution of the Israel of God from the Nation of Israel and a place for her to be fed during 3 1/2 years following Jesus acension in the ministry of the Apostle Peter.

Verse 9 speaks of the Pharisees being cast out of their self exalted position as rulers of over the Nation of Israel. Jesus stated:

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Jhn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

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Jhn 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

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Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Veses 13 and 14 speak of the persecution of the church by the Pharisees.

The rest of this I need to study or maybe you may have some revelation on the rest of it.

Marty

January 9, 2009 at 11:42 pm#117040

Participant

Marty

I'm not trying to be smart or anything, but go through all of it again.
Rev. 12:7-12 is talking about Satan being cast out of heaven. He no longer has access to heaven as he once had, according to Job 1:6. He has been cast out, it was prophesied, Dan. 8:14.
The Pharisees have nothing to do with these scriptures.

Georg

January 10, 2009 at 12:09 am#117042

Participant

Quote (Tiffany @ Jan. 10 2009,10:42)

Marty

Georg

Hi Georg:

The Pharisees were self-exalted over the people of Israel. God tells us that the serpent was in the Garden of Eden and that was on earth. He entered into the world through Adam and Eve.

I believe that Jodi has done a good job of showing us the identy of Satan. I do not believe that he is a super-natural being cast out of literal heaven. Why would God want to cast him out of literal heaven to earth? Gerog, that just does not make good sense.

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Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Verse 3 says a wonder in heaven, and speaks of a red dragon having seven heads and ten horns. Where is this dragon Georg, in heaven or in earth.

Verse 4 speaks of a dragon standing before a woman which was ready to be delivered. This speaks of Herod who wanted to kill the baby Jesus.

So it appears that the Dragon was already on earth, and so how is he being cast out of heaven in verse 8?

Marty

January 10, 2009 at 10:08 pm#117120

Participant

Marty

Satan, and a third of the angels God had created, rebelled against God; that is to show us that even angels can sin. The fact that Adam and Eve sinned did not come as a surprise to God, for he had already chosen a savior before had created man.
The difference between angels and man is, the angels don't have a savior. They did not have to guess what is truth and what is not as we do; man is so confused he can't even comprehend what is written;
just look at the many different opinions on this forum; does anyone agree with what is written?
Satan did not enter into this world through Adam and Eve, he was in this world; he is the god of this world; did he not offer all the kingdoms of this world to Jesus?
The Bible says Satan was cast out of heaven, access denied; so why would I not believe that. You see, that's what I mean by people don't believe what the Bible says. It doesn't make any difference whether it makes sense to us or not, it simply means, we don't understand; and we should admit that, rather than calling God a Liar. Now hold your horses, I know you didn't call God a liar, but think about it; if you don't believe his Word, is that not the same as calling Him a liar?
The dragon is symbolic for Satan, as the Bible says.
The seven heads represent the seven empires of the Bible, showing he is the power behind all worldly kingdoms.
A horn is symbolic for power, king. The ten horns represent all the kings that would rule in all seven kingdoms; notice, ten horns, but only seven crowns; one crown per empire.
Satan has used every kingdom, and every means to destroy God's plan, not only Herod.
According to Job 1:6, Satan had access to heaven, not any more.

Georg

January 11, 2009 at 2:17 am#117139

Participant

Hi Georg:

No, I have never called God a liar. I am studying His Word and seeking understanding. I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong. How about you?

You say:

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The scripture that the “tail of the dragon drew a third part of the stars of heaven”. It appears that you are adding to what this scripture actually states. I understand this to mean that satan through evil men deceived a third part of those who were in the kingdom of God.

Also, you say that satan was already on earth before Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Do you have scripture to support this statement?

An angel is a messenger. The messenger can be an angelic being or a man.

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Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Well, I still have some studying to do since I don't have understanding of all of Revelation 12.

Marty

January 11, 2009 at 4:46 am#117159

Participant

Marty

I have always been open minded, no matter the source; and yes, I have no problem being corrected.
If you don't believe that Satan is a real spirit being, it will be difficult to explain a lot of scriptures; for instance.

Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death is a condition, brought on by the one who has the power over it, as the scriptures say, that is Satan the devil. Also, Jesus says this about Satan.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

And who or what are these devils?

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

You even quoted a scripture yourself, Mat. 25:41, that speaks of the devil and his angels; and only angels are considered ministering spirit.

Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hbr 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Georg

January 11, 2009 at 5:14 am#117162

Participant

Hi 94,
You say
” He entered into the world through Adam and Eve.”
Why?
Surely the god of this world spent time wandering his dominion.[Jb1-2]

January 11, 2009 at 11:05 pm#117258

Participant

Quote (Tiffany @ Jan. 11 2009,15:46)

Marty

Death is a condition, brought on by the one who has the power over it, as the scriptures say, that is Satan the devil. Also, Jesus says this about Satan.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

And who or what are these devils?

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

You even quoted a scripture yourself, Mat. 25:41, that speaks of the devil and his angels; and only angels are considered ministering spirit.

Georg

Hi Georg:

A wicked man has the power to kill the body, and if there had been no resurrection from the dead, this world would continue on with that wicked man being the god of this world.

Jesus overcame this by obeying God without sin even unto death on the cross in spite of their threats and all of the insults that they could possibly do to him.

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Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

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Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God Bless

January 12, 2009 at 2:38 am#117289

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2009,16:14)

Hi 94,
You say
” He entered into the world through Adam and Eve.”
Why?
Surely the god of this world spent time wandering his dominion.[Jb1-2]

Hi Nick:

What do you mean by asking, why? It was because Adam and Eve obeyed him rather than God.

And satan does wander his dominion both then and now since the spirit of disobedience entered into the world through Adam and Eve.

Was Job a man born of a woman when the following happened?

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Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

And now:

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1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

January 12, 2009 at 3:02 am#117291

Participant

Hi 94,
Just because Adam submitted to Satan does not indicate that brought him into the world.
Genesis is not the beginning of creation and Satan preceded the creation of man.
He was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

January 13, 2009 at 12:35 am#117400

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2009,14:02)

Hi Nick:

Scripture Please?

January 13, 2009 at 12:41 am#117401

Participant

Hi 94,
The earth exists already when Genesis begins.
It was created in the epoch called THE BEGINNING

Gen1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
John 1:2
He was in the beginning with God.

Satan has been a liar from the beginning.

John 8:44
” You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

January 13, 2009 at 1:20 am#117404

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2009,11:41)

Hi 94,
The earth exists already when Genesis begins.
It was created in the epoch called THE BEGINNING

Gen1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
John 1:2
He was in the beginning with God.

Satan has been a liar from the beginning.

Hi Nick:

Quote

Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

The serpent was a beast that God created:

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Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

January 13, 2009 at 1:22 am#117405

Participant

Hi 94,
The serpent was the created vessel.
But Satan was from the beginning

Luke 22:3
And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.

January 13, 2009 at 1:43 am#117407

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2009,12:22)

Hi 94,
The serpent was the created vessel.
But Satan was from the beginning

Luke 22:3
And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.

Hi Nick:

The earth was “without form and void”. There was nothing in it.

I believe you adding something to God's Word that is not there.

January 13, 2009 at 1:46 am#117408

Participant

Hi 94,
But it was there,
empty or not.

It's foundations had been laid earlier.
No man was there
Jb38
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

January 13, 2009 at 1:56 am#117409

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2009,12:46)

Hi 94,
But it was there,
empty or not.

It's foundations had been laid earlier.
No man was there
Jb38
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Hi Nick:

If it was empty, then Satan was not in it. And God created the heavens and the earth, and all of its host.

January 13, 2009 at 1:57 am#117410