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Nick,
The Great White Throne judgement is a judgement of the UNSAVED!Quite so, MM. That is what I have said all along. Do you see it as the same as the sheep and goat judgement or not?
God is fair in judgement and there is still room for mercy and salvation for some-if the “deeds” are sufficient and appropriate in God's eyes.
Hello Nick and T8, In regards to 1 Cor 7:14 I think Nick's interpretation is out of context. Paul was speaking about divorce and marriage and that those who have come to faith in Christ ought to remain with their unsaved spouse. We are the salt of the earth. This salt is the holiness of God bringing sanctification to our workplace, marriage, etc. An unbelieving husband might not come to salvation, but even so God's presence will be salt in that marriage. Even more so, a child born in such a home would be affected having not been exposed to the degree of sin that we as adults experience daily. Testimonies to this fact are commonplace. In conclusion, Paul was not laying a foundation for a new means of salvation.
I have to wonder why something so scripturally fundamental would even be subject to this line of query. You would never question the blood of Christ or the resurrection but somehow the salvation of loved ones has brought the most fundamental truths of Christ into question. Many false churches deal with this troubling thought of loved ones going into Hell by using various extra-Biblical doctrines. One is the doctrine of purgatory . This is a limited judgement that can be resolved after the loved one has died by a believing third party. The Jehovah’s Witness do away with hell entirely as well as the resurrection of Christ. The unbelieving person simply ceases to exist. These doctrines appeal to our natural desire that friends and family be saved and not suffer Hell. Now, Nick purports a doctrine and I have to question the logic of it. Following this line of thinking one might falsely conclude that witnessing to a friend who has only been kind to you, or a spouse whom you love or a child who is after all sanctified {saved through you} is not really necessary.. I don’t believe anyone on this forum would advocate this. On the contrary, I think you would do all in your power to impress those you love with the importance of faith in Christ. Which leads me to feel your arguments stem from a hope that loved ones be saved. That’s a good hope to have. But what do we sacrifice to hold Nick’s view and why would we want to.? Are there coworkers lost? Are friends and family seemingly hard of heart or indifferent? We need to understand what’s at stake here. It is the very nature of God. This of course, is love. This love requires He gives us free will. He calls us to himself but His love will not allow him to force us to himself even if it’s for our best. The choice is ours. That people choose Hell is terrible. That people might find salvation by another way, especially by doing good works, flies in the face of two truths. One: that God could impute righteousness by works {humanism}. Secondly, that God would circumnavigate freewill, alter his nature, and worst, diminish and obscure the cross of Christ.. T8, Paul writes in 1st Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to. know any thing among you, save Christ and him crucified. I hope you will be more explicit in your next post on this subject. It‘s nice to meet you guys, too..Hi spheres,
I respect your view and thank you for sharing it.
Can we have a look at Matt 19.4
“And he answered them and said
'Have you not read that he created who them from the beginning made them male and female, and said “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become ONE FLESH.?” So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate”Now you may say that just because man cannot separate man and wife God still can. Or you could say that they are only united in flesh and not soul or spirit. I cannot disagree except to say if God considers them one, and reinforces that fact to us, it seems unlikely to me that He would divide us eternally either?
If you move to Eph 5.28
” ..He who loves his wife loves himself, for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes it and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the Church, because we are all members of his body. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is great;but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless each individual among you also is to love his wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband”If the husband and wife union is compared so closely with that of Christ and the church then is God going to break up the relationship between us and Jesus? Is He also likely to break the union between husband and wife?
and Rom 8.35
” Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written
'For your sake we are being put to death all day long
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered'
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us form the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”OK. Case unproven you may say but I think the mystery may have a good explanation for us who share our lives with those who are as yet stil not enlightened. The God of love I know says “Mercy triumphs over judgement” You may not need that mercy and may prefer your doctrines black and white, but I love that mercy and I rely on it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2005,22:46) Hi cubes,
I suggest you look again at the sheep and goat judgement in the light of these questions.All the nations are gathered-that is those of the world.
Do you know you are saved?
Did these sheep know they were saved?
Did they expect salvation?
Did they recognise they were helping Christ when they did so?
Are you relying on kindness to others for your salvation?
Are you in the same situation as they are?Insecure, uncertain, not expecting to be saved?
Neither do I say once saved always guaranteed to be saved [and there is a forum on this] It has to be in the light of 2 Tim 2.11f and Matt 25 13-30.it is possible to reject Christ or produce no good fruit and lose salvation but I think they will be few.
Hi Nick,I haven't thought too much about what “nations” mean, but my thoughts have often centered on the context of the saved among all nations.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Yes, I know I am Christ's and therefore saved. Still I believe that God gets to have the final word through Christ thus, as we are exhorted in the scriptures, I work out my salvation with fear and trembling.
I think that both sheep and goat hoped to be, or even expected to be. Jesus leads us to think that there shall be unpleasant surprises in the end, thus, he was always careful to encourage us to abide, endure, be faithful, etc. Take the parable about the talents for instance. All the servants knew themselves to be the master's, yet, the last guy was unpleasantly surprised when he was admonished and his talent taken and given to the 1st guy…who was pleasantly surprised.
I don't look at these scriptures in terms of works or fruits, gentiles or jews, I just view them in terms of what God delights in.
No, they did not expect they were helping (or not helping Christ). What do you make of this scripture:
Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
I think that goes for all of us. During the course of our lives, we may be hospitable and show kindness to any number of people and not know who among them is angelic or Christ . Thus it is important that we strive to treat everyone as though they were.
I have trusted in no other saviour but Yahshua so I have a sure hope in him that having looked to him, he will not let me down. Of his ability to keep me I am very sure.
Lastly, I am glad to see your last paragragh because Calvinism is unbiblical also. If Calvinism were true, the whole world should be automatically saved.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2005,00:36) Now you may say that just because man cannot separate man and wife God still can. Or you could say that they are only united in flesh and not soul or spirit. I cannot disagree except to say if God considers them one, and reinforces that fact to us, it seems unlikely to me that He would divide us eternally either?
Nick,
Isn't there a NT commandment for believers to marry other believer? (I don't have time to find it but I believe that is the case). Therefore the two becoming one flesh that Jesus quoted assumed that these two were in fact saved christians, not one saved and an unsaved. Also if you take your premise to its logical conclusion then everyone is saved, since we all decend from Noah and his sons and Noah was saved. I think you should seriously consider what spheres is saying to you.Quote (Guest @ Mar. 19 2005,02:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2005,00:36) Now you may say that just because man cannot separate man and wife God still can. Or you could say that they are only united in flesh and not soul or spirit. I cannot disagree except to say if God considers them one, and reinforces that fact to us, it seems unlikely to me that He would divide us eternally either?
Nick,
Isn't there a NT commandment for believers to marry other believer? (I don't have time to find it but I believe that is the case). Therefore the two becoming one flesh that Jesus quoted assumed that these two were in fact saved christians, not one saved and an unsaved. Also if you take your premise to its logical conclusion then everyone is saved, since we all decend from Noah and his sons and Noah was saved. I think you should seriously consider what spheres is saying to you.
LOL MM,You make me think of Nehemiah pulling peoples' beards for marrying foreign, ungodly women. They had to send some of those women back.
I think you are talking about the scripture that says not to be unequally yoked.
2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Still, though this can present some real difficulties, I think God encourages staying together once you are married. But one must be careful not to end up like Solomon, eh?
Hi cubes,
Has all authority under God been granted to the Son?
Is all judgement given to the Son?If so then if he declares someone not guilty in any judgement do we have the right to question that call?
He forgave the woman caught in adultery and thus over ruled the Law.
If he chooses to give salvation to any sinner in the Last Judgement they are saved through his name. That is why they are sheep too.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2005,04:04) He forgave the woman caught in adultery and thus over ruled the Law.
She was still alive. Big difference.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2005,04:04) Hi cubes,
Has all authority under God been granted to the Son?
Is all judgement given to the Son?If so then if he declares someone not guilty in any judgement do we have the right to question that call?
He forgave the woman caught in adultery and thus over ruled the Law.
If he chooses to give salvation to any sinner in the Last Judgement they are saved through his name. That is why they are sheep too.
I have come to this: I shall continue to follow Jesus' mandate in Mark 16:15-18 and so preach the gospel to all that I have opportunity to share with. I leave Jesus' job and judgment to him, and rejoice with all the redeemed. How's that?Quite so cubes,
If you look at Mk 16 you will see that ,though it says those who believe and are baptised will be saved, it does NOT say those who are NOT baptised will be condemned. That is the wonderful mercy of God.It also applies to the time of Joel 2 and Romans 10 when after the rapture in the tribulation there will no longer be christians to baptise and calling on the Name will be sufficient.
The false “baptism of infants” was begun because of a fear that they would be lost if they died before baptism. But 1Cor 7 gives us comfort that they are safe till they are ready to “come to the Lord” themselves. If 1Cor 7 gives us comfort over our children why can it not also be used to give us hope for our “unsaved” husband or wife?
Hi,
Despite their faults and deficiencies the seven churches of Revelation are established in and founded on Jesus Christ. But much of what presents itself now as his church is not because it is not established in this most basic way.Hi,
The whore is the greatest triumph of Satan's antichrist and antiGod spirit. She presents herself as sent by God to men to offer salvation but her fruit is their perishing for eternity.
“Come out of her my people”Yes, “come out of her MY people.”
Perhaps in addition to having a topic that covers false relgion, we should have a topic to discuss the “my people” in this verse, God's people.
Hi david,
So it must be true that there are plenty still within the whore of Babylon that God has chosen and is is calling.Sorry Nick, I took this as a question:
“So it must be true that there are plenty still within the whore of Babylon that God has chosen and is is calling.”
I should have asked what your point was istead of saying: Why do you ask?
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