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Hi cubes and MM,
Can we look at Jn 3.3f. Here is Yeshua speaking to a fully grown man[and us]:
“..Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is Born AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God…
Truly truly ,I say to you , unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven….
Do not marvel that I said to you 'You must be born again'”Twice he said he needed to be born AGAIN. Even to perceive[see] the kingdom we need this rebirth and that is why so many fail to understand the scriptural basics because they have not submitted to this command of Yeshua.
As Nicodemus showed, the natural understanding of rebirth is nonsense-to reenter the womb- and only the natural understanding would involve the waters of natural birth.
If you leave the word “again” out then it could imply that any being, man or animal, born with amniotic fluid could enter the kingdom and that again is folly.
So I am afraid amniotic fluid does not fit the bill if you see what I mean.
Hello Heaven Net, I am Cubes husband and have followed some of your conversations but never felt any need to say anything, but now I have to speak. The doctrine of the Trinity is debatable and I can understand your views, but the doctrine Nick is espousing is bordering on apostasy. The idea of the blood of christ being God's plan “A” and being nice to or marrying a christian being Gods plan “B” is a theological swamp; a lukewarm mush that Jesus is sure to vomit out. I think T8 should address this false doctrine. Frankly, this forum has gone to great pains to refute what it considers error, but will lose any credibility it has if this is not redressed. I look forward to a response and hope ,Nick, that you will recieve the correction.
Welcome spheres,
I am pleased you have some doubts about the trinity doctrine.
What is it about God being God that you are struggling with?Do your doctrines completely define God's behaviours ?I am sure they do not and you will be also prepared to say so. Are you frightened to study to prove your beliefs?I would say not.
What you need to understand is that these forums are non denominational and all aspects of our doctrinal beliefs can be challenged and proven or disproven according the the Word of God. None of us claim to be infallible and all are hopefully honest students putting their understandings up for public scrutiny. We all are shown to be wrong at times and we move on.
But we serve the Son of God in this search for truth -resilient, provable and sustainable truth-as many false teachers have gone out into the world who teach opinion, assumptions and ignorance because they have not themselves searched daily to see if these things are so.
As the introduction to the site says many will feel challenged by the views expressed here. We would love to hear what you have to contribute in a positive way so we can learn from you too if you have precious truths you have discovered and want to share.
Feel free to attack me personally if you must. Or, better, show me I am wrong but do so with specific scriptural evidence so I can learn please-that would be the kind thing to do?
If there is a specific query about a particular issue that you want to get me to show you why I have reached that conclusion I am happy to explain my reasons.I try to make sure my opinion and assumptions are declared as such but when we are wrong it is always good to know how and why.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2005,00:49) Hi cubes and MM,
Can we look at Jn 3.3f. Here is Yeshua speaking to a fully grown man[and us]:
“..Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is Born AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God…
Truly truly ,I say to you , unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven….
Do not marvel that I said to you 'You must be born again'”Twice he said he needed to be born AGAIN. Even to perceive[see] the kingdom we need this rebirth and that is why so many fail to understand the scriptural basics because they have not submitted to this command of Yeshua.
As Nicodemus showed, the natural understanding of rebirth is nonsense-to reenter the womb- and only the natural understanding would involve the waters of natural birth.
If you leave the word “again” out then it could imply that any being, man or animal, born with amniotic fluid could enter the kingdom and that again is folly.
So I am afraid amniotic fluid does not fit the bill if you see what I mean.
I agree, Nick, that we must be born again and baptized into Christ.My husband, Spheres, decided to post and share some of his views. I'll let him respond to you.
Hi,
Perhaps spheres, in the interests of finding truth and possible agreement in Christ, you could give us your take on 1Cor 7.14f
“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified THROUGH HIS WIFE, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified THROUGH HER BELIEVING HUSBAND;for otherwise your children are unclean, BUT NOW THEY ARE HOLY”
and
Matt 25.34f
“..Come you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…
..Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me”Please tell me how these instances of salvation fit with the usual way of following Christ taught by Jesus and the disciples. Where did Jesus teach that salvation for all was only by showing kindness to a certain group of people?
Nick, I do think you know the scripture as well or better than I do and that you could ably argue both sides of this debate but for the sake of posterity I'll give you a scripture.
Romans 8:9f Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. I did not write my last post to join in a debate but to ask that T8 express his opinion on the matter. I have seen several pastors embrace the idea that there were other ways beside Christ's cross. Recently a prominent minister regularly seen on Christian T.V. lost his church and lead many people astray and wounded many others by this humanistic teaching. My own pastor left the ministry and lost his marriage all on account of this. We are not in a debate club to present new and intriguing possible interpretations of the scripture just for the sake of it. This doctrine is not safe and left alone can and has been deadly. One more scripture. Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Now, again, I beseech t*8 to resolve this for the sake of the love of God's Word.l concernQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2005,03:15) Hi, Perhaps spheres, in the interests of finding truth and possible agreement in Christ, you could give us your take on 1Cor 7.14f
“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified THROUGH HIS WIFE, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified THROUGH HER BELIEVING HUSBAND;for otherwise your children are unclean, BUT NOW THEY ARE HOLY”
Just wondering…whether this (1 Cor 7:14) has something to do with the fact that in marriage, two become one flesh, so that the two become one in Christ, leading also to sanctified (fruit) children.Compare to:
[/I]1 Cor 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”* 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
I welcome other insights.
Yes I agree cubes,
But all I am saying is that it is outside of the normal WAY of salvation. Compredez vous?Hi spheres,
Humanism is the worship of man and I abhor it. Humanism is idolatry. It is rampant among traditional denominations who elevate man's derived understandings to be greater than the Word of God. Tradition, as with the Pharisees, is worshipped too rather than God.That is not what we do here . We check everything against the Word of God and only teach what is revealed. You judge that that is not the Spirit of Christ and you have the right to say such things. But you judge on words and not fruit.
Of course many are offended by the Word of God and the Spirit that lives in that Word but usually that is because of unfamiliarity with what the word reveals. It is impossible to please everyone and we are not in the business of trying to do so.
I do not apologise for presenting to anyone what the bible reveals.
It is my joyful duty.And, as anyone familiar with my posts, I teach THE Way of Salvation… but that does not stop me from sharing whatever I find that may be useful to my brothers.
Quote (Guest @ Mar. 17 2005,22:37) Nick, I do think you know the scripture as well or better than I do and that you could ably argue both sides of this debate but for the sake of posterity I'll give you a scripture.
Romans 8:9f Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. I did not write my last post to join in a debate but to ask that T8 express his opinion on the matter. I have seen several pastors embrace the idea that there were other ways beside Christ's cross. Recently a prominent minister regularly seen on Christian T.V. lost his church and lead many people astray and wounded many others by this humanistic teaching. My own pastor left the ministry and lost his marriage all on account of this. We are not in a debate club to present new and intriguing possible interpretations of the scripture just for the sake of it. This doctrine is not safe and left alone can and has been deadly. One more scripture. Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Now, again, I beseech t*8 to resolve this for the sake of the love of God's Word.l concern
Hi Spheres,It is a pleasure to meet you even if it is in cyberspace.
First of all I hold to the view that it is only in Christ that we can be saved. But that said, we know that those who followed the Law (in spirit) were saved as the Law leads us to Christ and speaks of him. We know that many lived before Christ came to earth, but that through Law and conscience they could know God. But in the last days, God has spoken to us by his son.
So if a man is sanctified through his wife or a woman though her husband, it may have more to do with them being one flesh and the fact that God saves us through his son. Can we put those to concepts together? I do not know, but there is at least one scripture that appears to say this.
Another way to look at this would be to take a child who is not by definition a disciple of Christ. Let's take a child that doesn't even know how to speak or understand a language.
Would such a young baby go to Hell if they died? If not, then do we have an exception here? If yes, then it is certainly logical to assume that there maybe more exceptions.
But are they really exceptions or are they just different expressions of how God saves us through his son and the work of the cross?
Certainly we have not walked with Christ on earth as the disciples did, but Christ gave us the Spirit of truth to lead us. Before Christ came to earth God gave the Law and the prophets. If we look at the big picture we can see for example that Abraham was considered righteous because he had faith. I doubt that he knew the name of Christ at all. Perhaps he wasn't even aware of a cross as a means of death. Yet it is the name of God's son that is the only name under heaven and on earth that men can be saved. Name of course means authority and men in different season have had different measures of God's grace and revelation.
We of course see things today that the men of old desired to see. So we are truly priviledged in that sense. But we cannot judge the men of old with our revelation and grace. It is even said that John was the greatest man born of a woman yet the least in the Kingdom is greater than him.
So I am saying that it is only through God's son that we can have eternal life. But that we can receive the son through the Law, conscience and through the Spirit of God.
I certainly do not have all the answers but I rest my limitations on a God who has no limits. There is a scripture that does teach that a husband can sanctify a wife and/or vice versa. I do not truly undertand this, but on the outset it appears to say that a man with faith and the resulting salvation of this true believer can also benefit his partner. We also know that man and wife become one flesh and since they are one, perhaps it is that God treats them as one, even salvation as one.
But truly for me to teach this with authority, I would need to study this scripture and others more deeply. I have not done this, so I offer you my thoughts only.
However whatever the answer is, I teach and believe that it is only in the name of Yeshua the Christ that we can be saved. Just how we are baptized/or come into into his name is another discussion. I will not let my understanding limit me with regards to salvation. Yes God has made a way for men to be saved. But God is also sovereign. What he says goes and I do not know the mind of God, except that which is shown me by his Spirit.
Perhaps we can work this out together. We would need to take the relevant scriptures and test their meanings. We could list out all the ways that appear in scripture to offer a way of salvation that are not the way that we know. We could then see if they are just ways in which Christ saves people or if they have been translated in a way to bring confusion.
This is what this forum is about, seeking and finding. Yes we are all limited and we struggle against many enemies, but together we can learn so much if we love the truth. Feel free to start up a discussion if there isn't one already.
thx and I hope to hear from you again.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 17 2005,11:25) First of all I hold to the view that it is only in Christ that we can be saved. But that said, we know that those who followed the Law (in spirit) were saved as the Law leads us to Christ and speaks of him. We know that many lived before Christ came to earth, but that through Law and conscience they could know God. But in the last days, God has spoken to us by his son…… …..But are they really exceptions or are they just different expressions of how God saves us through his son and the work of the cross?
Interesting topic and study.I am of the view that Just merely conforming to Christian culture does n't save us, but that we must abide in Christ and yes, that calls for fellowship and obedience. We already talked about works/fruit.
Luke 17:11 Now it happened as He went to Jerusalem that He passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. 12 Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. 13 And they lifted up their voices and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!”
14 So when He saw them, He said to them, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16 and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan.
17 So Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? 18 Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?” 19 And He said to him, “Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well.”The word “well” in verse 19 is sozo in grk [4982], according to the concordance, and means:
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a) one (from injury or peril)1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
b) to save in the technical biblical sense1) negatively
a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliveranceIn this case, it would appear the Samaritan leper got wholly restored, which would include salvation. All that is shown of him is that he glorified God and demonstrated gratitude towards Christ, leading to Christ giving him the added gift of wholeness—which the other 9 were not given.
—–
Also the story of the good samaritan, Luke 10:30-37, of which Jesus said:
36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”I imagine that in matters of salvation, the Samaritan would be saved and not the priest or levite according to John's epistle in which he teaches that God is love…because he demonstrated that seed and spirit of God.
What do you think?
Lastly, Nick, with regards to the sheep and goats, could it be that Jesus means a comma to be placed directly after “these,” rendering the meaning to reflect Luke 10:37 above?
Matt 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Jesus said to his disciples, “go and do likewise.” He meant that his disciples/brethren should behave like the good Samaritan towards others. So it's These, as in the public, and not These as in my brethren.
Jesus came showing us the way to the father. Therefore, it is safe to say, he wasn't pointing to another way or presenting alternative routes to salvation. Having said that, God is sovereign and knows best the hearts of men so his list would undoubtedly differ from ours, he knows who truly is Christlike—provided they have not rejected Christ!
As Jesus often said, there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Not who approves himself but whom God approves, right? So that tells me that not only should I believe on Christ but I must be Christlike, born of God.
hi cubes,
Dunno abvout your inference about the leper. Sounds not right to me that Physical healing saves as well.Certainly it gives less excuse to the helped not to respond to the salvation message” to whom much is given, from whom much will be expected”
The shifting of the comma only broadens the salvation to total humanism. Whoever helps anyone then is saved and that is not the message of Jesus either is it.”Love your neighbour” is not the greatest commandment but humanists would make it so. Love God is the most important but where is that demand in the sheep and goat judgement? Instead by indirectly showing love to the Son of God and thus showing love for the Father is the salvation given here.
Again that is not the Gospel Way but mercy.What I am saying is that, when the gospel is presented to any individual who has the ability to understand it, he has a responsibility to respond to it and accept Jesus or is condemned already, regardless of his good works or attitude.
On the other hand, when a person has not had such an opportunity to hear the gospel but through conscience and the law (say the laws of a nation which many are based on the 10 commandments), and compassion lives in the fear of God, then it is possible that such a one is like the good samaritan and God reserves the right to do as he pleases–Romans 2.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2005,20:11) hi cubes,…
The shifting of the comma only broadens the salvation to total humanism. Whoever helps anyone then is saved and that is not the massage of Jesus either is it.”Love your neighbour” is not the greatest commandment but humanists would make it so. Love God is the most important but where is that demand in the sheep and goat judgement? Instead by indirectly showing love to the Son of God and thus showing love for the Father is the salvation given here.
Again that is not the Gospel Way but mercy.
Hi Nick,Regarding the Samaritan leper, I thought that the word sozo makes that claim. I am not a greek student so I stand to be corrected, but the definitions certainly suggest that.
My explanation was intended to say that the disciples are the ones commanded to love others, to whom the good samaritan was used as an example. Also, loving God IS the greatest commandment but it is exercised best through the second. We have not seen God and can't love him except through the love of others.
God doesn't distinguish b/n whom we show compassion to, does he, that is as long as I don't side with the wicked against the innocent.
absolutely cubes though I am not sure how the good samaritan fits here.
. God is love
. God is sovereign and He looks at the heart.Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 17 2005,20:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2005,20:11) hi cubes,…
The shifting of the comma only broadens the salvation to total humanism. Whoever helps anyone then is saved and that is not the massage of Jesus either is it.”Love your neighbour” is not the greatest commandment but humanists would make it so. Love God is the most important but where is that demand in the sheep and goat judgement? Instead by indirectly showing love to the Son of God and thus showing love for the Father is the salvation given here.
Again that is not the Gospel Way but mercy.
Hi Nick,Regarding the Samaritan leper, I thought that the word sozo makes that claim. I am not a greek student so I stand to be corrected, but the definitions certainly suggest that.
My explanation was intended to say that the disciples are the ones commanded to love others, to whom the good samaritan was used as an example. Also, loving God IS the greatest commandment but it is exercised best through the second. We have not seen God and can't love him except through the love of others.
God doesn't distinguish b/n whom we show compassion to, does he, that is as long as I don't side with the wicked against the innocent.
Hi cubes ,
Salvation in the sheep and goat judgement is BECAUSE OF or THROUGH certain behaviours or works. Certainly the followers of Jesus have to love and produce good fruit but they are ALREADY saved and they are not saved through those behaviours. Those behaviours are the natural expression of the Spirit received at Salvation. Do you get my drift?Certainly the greek word can mean salvation but can also mean just healing and I do not think we should assume BOTH meanings as that is against scripture.
Jesus did make a distinction in love. His new commandment was ” To love ONE ANOTHER as I have loved you” That was spoken to the disciples so does not include love of those in the world.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2005,20:44) nick wrote:Hi cubes ,
Salvation in the sheep and goat judgement is BECAUSE OF or THROUGH certain behaviours or works. Certainly the followers of Jesus have to love and produce good fruit but they are ALREADY saved and they are not saved through those behaviours. Those behaviours are the natural expression of the Spirit received at Salvation. Do you get my drift?Certainly the greek word can mean salvation but can also mean just healing and I do not think we should assume BOTH meanings as that is against scripture.
Jesus did make a distinction in love. His new commandment was ” To love ONE ANOTHER as I have loved you” That was spoken to the disciples so does not include love of those in the world.
Hi Nick,To the first portion of your question, No, their behaviors is not what saved them. And they were already saved. But I don't believe in “once saved always saved” doctrine. Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve, called by Jesus, participating in all the activities with the rest, until he decided to stop abiding in Yeshua/Yahshua and so I don't believe him to be saved.
For the saved, following and serving Jesus is a privilege. We cannot be saved and not obey the Master who said, “go and do likewise.” That is not to suggest that we are infallible or that Jesus is a hard taskmaster. Grace is truly afforded us.
2. “And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed.”
All ten were already healed, but it was to only the Samaritan that Jesus said his faith has made him Sozo. So in this case, Sozo must have offered something extra to the already healed Samaritan leper, especially since Jesus didn't tell that to the others.Anyway, that is the basis for my reasoning.
Hi cubes,
I suggest you look again at the sheep and goat judgement in the light of these questions.All the nations are gathered-that is those of the world.
Do you know you are saved?
Did these sheep know they were saved?
Did they expect salvation?
Did they recognise they were helping Christ when they did so?
Are you relying on kindness to others for your salvation?
Are you in the same situation as they are?Insecure, uncertain, not expecting to be saved?
Neither do I say once saved always guaranteed to be saved [and there is a forum on this] It has to be in the light of 2 Tim 2.11f and Matt 25 13-30.it is possible to reject Christ or produce no good fruit and lose salvation but I think they will be few.
ps, cubes,
Do you agree the great white throne judgement in Rev 20.11 is the same as the sheep and goat judgement or do you think it is another further judgement? Personally I think it is the same as there is no suggestion of double jeopardy in scripture. If so then surely you agree we are already with Jesus and have enjoyed restoring the earth with him for 1000 yrs. Do you think we would spend that time being anxious about condemnation in a later judgement?Note also Rev 20 13″ ..and they were judged, every one of them according to their DEEDS”
It too is a judgement of WORKS like the sheep and goats.
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