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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2005,20:19) Hi cubes,
Matt 19.16f is interesting. Compare it with all the other discussions on the OT Law Jesus had with the Jews and in this one only he showed there was a new covenant. He offered the rich young man the advice to sell all and follow him. That is the same thing as he said to Nicodemus because the first part of following him is into his death and resurrection by being born again of Water and the Spirit.There is no difference between Jew and Gentile as both groups can go through the narrow gate.The faithful Jew is the older son in the Prodigal son scenario and he inherits the kingdom through perfect obedience to the Law-but that is now an impossible task. People prefer older wine Jesus said and many Jews still prefer to attempt to inherit salvation through works as they stumble over the stone of Jesus.
144,000 will be saved from the Jewish tribes but they have the name of the Son of God written on them so they must come to accept him too-“they will mourn when they look on him they have pierced.”
If you read fully the story of the salvation of the jailor you will see he and his family were baptised after receiving the message of salvation so 'belief' implies also 'obedience' to the command to be born again of water and the Spirit here.
Yes God has allowed an exception to that command in giving salvation to those who help his followers. It gives a greater depth to the scripture of the workers in the vineyard who were paid the same as the hardworking servants but for minimal effort.
rev 20.4” Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them ,and judgement was given to them.
AND I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the Word of God,
AND those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and their hand;and they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 yrs.”There are three groups here. The ANDs show that the second and third groups are separate from the first.
The two Tim verse shows also three groups
Those who have died with him in Baptism
Those who have endured to death
Those who have endured without worshiping the beast etc.You can overcome in Jesus prior to the rapture or afterwards through death or endurance.
Hi Nick,Do you mind telling me what “f” means after your scripture verses, and also “cf”? I have been meaning to ask. Thank you.
I agree that belief is obedience.
With regards to the workers in the vineyard who got paid equally for working less as a result of coming later on in the day, I have understood that to mean that those who were saved earlier in their lives as opposed to those who come to salvation later on in life, are equally assured of the resurrection. The thief on the cross was saved and had no opportunity to do anything for Jesus, he didn't even get baptized, yet he is assured of equal hope in matters of the resurrection.Nevertheless, God is not mocked. It is foolish for a person to knowingly delay belief in God, when that great light is shone in their hearts until such a time that they deem convenient.
Of the 144,000 that are sealed, I am thinking that they are specific to the period of the Seals (#5), and not necessarily representative of all the number that are saved. I am hoping there is a far greater number!
And Dan is not mentioned. What happened to Dan, does any one know? The best explanations that I have so far is that they were cut-off due to excessive idolatry. Which they were idolatrous but they weren't the only ones.
With regards to Revelations 20:4…it requires some pondering. When you consider those who have been persecuted and slain for their witness through the ages: people thrown to lions, sawn in two, burnt at stakes and all manner of untold things for whom the world is not worthy…not to mention the prophets and names mentioned in the Hall of Faith (Hebrews 11), I have to say, that it makes me wonder. I don't doubt that God is able to do all things, but I am thinking of the mother of the sons of Zebedee who wanted to have her sons sit at the left and right hand of Jesus, and the answer that Jesus gave to her. There are many contenders for the faith and some are far worthier.
Compare Revelations 20:4 to Rev 2:10-11 (Church of Smyrna).
And also, how does this compare to the scriptures that talk about rewards for works done? By this I don't say or mean that salvation is by works.With regards to the sheeps and goats, please supply other collaborative scriptures. It's new to me.
Talk to you later.
Hope you all were not affected by the Tornado in Greymouth, NZ a day or two ago. I heard about it on our weather channel yesterday.
Hi cbes,
No the tornado was 200 miles away on the West Coast-Thanks.”f” means “following verses”The sheep and goats. It is an undisputed fact that the salvation brought by Jesus is not one of our works and I am sure you do not need me to show you the scriptures. If judgement is primarily of works then most of the new testament is superfluous.
This judgement, however, is according to works. So it cannot apply to us or we have no advantage over the unsaved and Jesus did not need to suffer and die.
If all that matters is good works or lack of them then all that Jesus and the the apostles wrote or said is a waste of time.The judgement would differ from the teachings about salvation.
We were never under Law so we are in a very precarious position. By a process of exclusion ,then, according to other revealed truth this scripture applies to “all the nations” as it says it does.
Note how those who are given salvation are surprised and unaware of their good works. “When did we see you hungry..?”
Note that it is for whatever they did for these “brothers of mine”. Jesus calls us his brothers [heb2]and he never said that about the Jews or even his own family. If it is us who are helped then we cannot be among those being addressed in this salvation can we?
Hebrews 4 speaks of the need to ensure our entry to the Sabbath rest-the 1000yr reign of Christ. What a glorious opportunity given us.
Are the 'men of old' also part of the first resurrection? Surely they are in Christ too and awaiting his return under the altar in Rev 6. They will be judges for the tribes of Israel so they have to be on thrones surely.
Ps Heb 11.35 Speaking of the “men of old”
” ..and others were tortured, not accepting their release, in order that they may obtain a BETTER RESURRECTION”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 12 2005,22:24) Hi cbes,
No the tornado was 200 miles away on the West Coast-
Hey Nick did you feel the earthquake (6.4) yesterday morning. Felt it quite good here in Wellington. That is about the 12th one in the last month. Also the weather here has been dead still. No wind in Wellington. That is strange in itself. You know windy Wellington.Not only have there been quakes and strange (but great) weather, but even the animals are acting strange. Maybe just a coincendence but I saw 3 birds in a disoriented state at different times of the day. Won't go into detail on that, because it would sound far-fetched and funny (as in weird), but I had to pray to God last night about it all and the possibility of the big one. But he gave me no sign as yet.
Might be worth praying about it.
Yeah, biggest one I have felt.
Woke me up with hard shaking and the bed seemed to move back and forth a couple of inches or so.
Birds still behaving as bad as usual here and eating my grapes!Quakes are a problem in NZ and Wellington is a problem area. Be comforted by Ps 91 bro.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 12 2005,03:24) Hi cbes,
No the tornado was 200 miles away on the West Coast-Thanks.”f” means “following verses”The sheep and goats. It is an undisputed fact that the salvation brought by Jesus is not one of our works and I am sure you do not need me to show you the scriptures. If judgement is primarily of works then most of the new testament is superfluous.
This judgement, however, is according to works. So it cannot apply to us or we have no advantage over the unsaved and Jesus did not need to suffer and die.
If all that matters is good works or lack of them then all that Jesus and the the apostles wrote or said is a waste of time.The judgement would differ from the teachings about salvation.
We were never under Law so we are in a very precarious position. By a process of exclusion ,then, according to other revealed truth this scripture applies to “all the nations” as it says it does.
Note how those who are given salvation are surprised and unaware of their good works. “When did we see you hungry..?”
Note that it is for whatever they did for these “brothers of mine”. Jesus calls us his brothers [heb2]and he never said that about the Jews or even his own family. If it is us who are helped then we cannot be among those being addressed in this salvation can we?
Hebrews 4 speaks of the need to ensure our entry to the Sabbath rest-the 1000yr reign of Christ. What a glorious opportunity given us.
Are the 'men of old' also part of the first resurrection? Surely they are in Christ too and awaiting his return under the altar in Rev 6. They will be judges for the tribes of Israel so they have to be on thrones surely.
Hi Nick,Glad you are ok and thanks for explaining “f.” With regards to the Sheep and the Goats, I had never so much as heard your interpretation before (that is not to say that you couldn't be right), but it's one I have to keep on the back burner as I study scripture and see whether God shows me more. It's one to mull over. It led me to Romans 2 and it will take a while but I shall bear that in mind as I study.
Please bear with me. I have questions.
[“This judgement, however, is according to works. So it cannot apply to us or we have no advantage over the unsaved and Jesus did not need to suffer and die. “]
But isn't everybody considered unsaved, until they believe in Yahshua? No one can be saved by works, can they? Because by necessity, it is impossible to fulfill the requirements of the law (Romans 7:13-25), and Jesus to my understanding was the first to do so. Isn't that why Jews and Gentiles are equally called to believe on Jesus? If so, why is there an exception regarding the sheep and the goats.
My educated guess is that perhaps, these would be people who did not have an opportunity to hear about Yahshua and therefore did not reject him, but their conscience led them to live in a pleasing way to God (Romans 2)?
Hi cubes,
We know the Way. Jesus is THE WAY.We teach the Way of salvation. The way is to follow Yeshua into his death and resurrection though it is much easier for us than it was for the Master.
But God is not limited to what is in the Way. He is sovereign and makes exceptions. He fills the wedding feast with those who were not invited. He promises blessings to those who give us a cup of water because we belong to Yeshua and that blessing is salvation.We know from Rev 20 there are two resurrections separated by the 1000 yr reign of Christ.
Here is the FIRST. This is the resurrection of life and for the saved who do not go to the sheep and goat judgement but the tribunal of Christ.
Jn 5.24f
“Truly, truly , I say to you, he who hears my word ,and believes Him who sent me ,HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGEMENT, but HAS PASSED out of death into life. Truly ,truly I say to you , and hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God ;and those who hear shall live””Here is the SECOND. This is the resurrection of judgement according to works-the sheep and goat judgement-a judgement of ALL THE NATIONS.
Jn 5.28
” Do not marvel at this ;for an hour is coming, in which ALL WHO ARE IN THE TOMBS will hear his voice, and shall come forth;
Those who did the good DEEDS to a resurrection of life,
those who committed the evil DEEDS to a resurrection of JUDGEMENT”Hi Nick,
I have not made a separation b/n those who are resurrected. I thought that all would be judged based on:
Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Although now that I think of it, Rev 20:4-5 does not indicate that those who are in the 1st resurrection were judged. Is this what you mean? And if so, does Hebrew 9:27 not apply to all people?
Hi cubes,
We are the exception to the Hebrews verse as we are already dead[rom 6]and alive again in Christ. We are the many, the ones eagerly awaiting his return .Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2005,21:21) Hi cubes,
We are the exception to the Hebrews verse as we are already dead[rom 6]and alive again in Christ. We are the many, the ones eagerly awaiting his return .
Wow.Now how about Rev 20:12, 15
Rev:20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books.
15: And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.I recall Jesus saying to the Apostles that they were to rather rejoice over the fact that their names are written in the Book of Life and not that demons flee from them.
I shall have to go back and consider your breakdown of Rev 20:4 as being different categories of the resurrected.
How does that compare to Matthew 19:28 with regards to the very Apostles:
So Jesus said to them, “assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneraton, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Hi cubes,
It is “wow” stuff.Jn 3.18f
” He that believes in him IS NOT JUDGED;he who does not believed has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgement, that the Light has comne into the world and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil”
And as you say
Lk 10.20
” Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven” Also Phil 4.3The Hebrews verse does not say all are to be judged but “after that the judgement”
and
1Cor 6.2
“or do you not know that the saints will judge the World?”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2005,09:43) Birds still behaving as bad as usual here and eating my grapes!
No concept of ownership aye!. Well you can take comfort in the fact that we are worth more than many sparrows.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2005,23:43) Hi cubes,
It is “wow” stuff.Jn 3.18f
” He that believes in him IS NOT JUDGED;he who does not believed has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgement, that the Light has comne into the world and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil”
And as you say
Lk 10.20
” Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven” Also Phil 4.3The Hebrews verse does not say all are to be judged but “after that the judgement”
and
1Cor 6.2
“or do you not know that the saints will judge the World?”
Hey Nick,What of this?
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
The trouble that I have is that your view suggests different paths to salvation: some through the law, some by good works and some through Christ.
I disagree with this view, though I have been blessed by much that you've usually shared, and undoubtedly will on other topics.
I trust the Lord to lead us into truth as we seek him on this and in all things.
Much love.
Hi cubes,
There is indeed “no other name” under heaven than that of Jesus in whom “we” are promised salvation.There is no other gospel for us to preach than that “You must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God”.But we are not God and He is not as narrowminded [no offense] as we are. And that promise does not close the door for others that God chooses to show mercy to. We are only servants responsible to do as we are told to do, and to teach as we are told to teach, but we are not able to limit God in his sovereignty are we? For “mercy triumphs over judgement”.
We should not be like the workers who expected more because they had worked longer or harder.
” Friend ,I am doing you no wrong;did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go, but I WISH to give the last man the same as to you. IS IT NOT LAWFUL FOR ME TO DO WHAT I WISH WITH WHAT IS MY OWN? ”
Do we judge God as unfair? Never. We do, however, have to mind our own spiritual business.
When we see who has won salvation just through the mercy of God I am sure we will be amazed at His generosity. If what we say is right about the sheep and goat judgement it seems likely there will be as many sheep as goats or one side of the throne is going to get crowded!
Are young children and wives/husbands saved through the faith of others? I suggest scripture says they are [1Cor 7]. Do they have to go through the gate to receive this blessing?
No. In the endtimes Joel says “whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”. Is that going by the usual way? No. Did the good thief go through the gate? NoGod wants everyone to be saved and we are not in an exclusive club because we have obeyed the requirements specified. We are simply assured of the gift that others can only faintly hope to receive. But does our puny knowledge about God restrict Him to those boundaries in the lives of others???
Naaaah!
Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 16 2005,01:14) Hey Nick, What of this?
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
The trouble that I have is that your view suggests different paths to salvation: some through the law, some by good works and some through Christ.
I disagree with this view, though I have been blessed by much that you've usually shared, and undoubtedly will on other topics.
I trust the Lord to lead us into truth as we seek him on this and in all things.
Much love.
I agree with you Cubes,
There is one path to salvation. I believe that the sheep had already accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour.Nick,
Jn 14 records Jesus saying:“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Jesus declared that He is the only way to the father. Jesus said it, I believe it.
The whole of the NT validates this!
I have made an assumption that the sheep were already saved because that would harmonise with what the rest of the NTs seriotological passages. Your assumption that it was their good works that saved them flies in the face of it. Where does Paul mention God's 'good works' exception?
Also your assumption contradicts your premise that baptism is necessary for salvation.
So, which one is true?
1. You must be baptised to be saved, or
2. baptism is not really not that essential because there is a back door clause where you just have to be nice to other believers. Oh and if you marry a believer thats enough to.I think I will stick with what scripture teaches about salvation
BTW, im not yet convinced that baptism is required for salvation im just using your logic.
Lets look at Jn 3 verses you use so often, for instance:
3In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!”
5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
To my understanding Jesus is simply contrasting physical birth and spiritual rebirth. He is using water as an idiom to denote physical birth, or more specically amniotic fluid (Nicodemus mentioned the womb). He amplifies this in verse 6. I don't see a reference to baptism here. What do others think?
Hi Modemouth,
Paul was a servant apostle who preached the simple gospel of salvation. That is the role of an apostle. He did not confuse the listeners with other deeper matters as he knew bringing people through the gate was the essential message for the unsaved and there is plenty of time for further reflection once they were secure in the kingdom.Then they can go in and out and find pasture and Spirit guided teachers can show them other levels of understanding in God.
So should we share that gospel in speaking with the unsaved as he has given us the job of passing on that message to whoever is interested. The simple message is urgent and the apostles demonstrated the meaning of John 3 in obedience to Yeshua in the book of Acts.
But if the Father, through the full authority granted to the Son, allows others to be saved according to His will, I submit to His wisdom. He remains Almighty God and Jesus is Lord. I am not and I understand little of Him and His ways.
I have personally delivered hundreds of babies and can assure you the waters of birth bear little resemblance to water as we know it.
But, as usual, let those accept it who can. We will never agree on some things but so long as we all keep learning the kingdom is progressed.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2005,02:48) Hi cubes,
There is indeed “no other name” under heaven than that of Jesus in whom “we” are promised salvation.There is no other gospel for us to preach than that “You must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God”.
Hi Nick,I think the key word you used here is “promised.” That says it all. John 3:16 is the promise and he gave Jesus to all the world.
It is true that God's ways are not our ways, and the Potter may do what he wishes with his clay, but we (men) have been given no other name by which we might be saved as well pointed out by Modem Mouth, and as evidenced in Hebrews by our need of a High Priest and an acceptable sacrifice, which Yahshua is.
Hi MM,
I am with you on this one. As far as the vs regarding being born by water and the spirit, I think both amniotic fluid and water baptism could be applicable. I speculate, however.
All people are born with water… and Jesus himself was baptised, though the thief was not as far as we can tell.
Also, check out Hebrews 6:
Hebrews 6:1-3: Therefore leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of the DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMS, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.From this, it suggests that Baptism is necessary because laying on of hands and the resurrection of the dead and things pertaining to eternal judgment are real things in the faith, although our hope in Jesus frees us from condemnation.
1 Cor 15:12: Now if Christ is preached that he has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no ressurrection of the dead?
also
1 Cor 15:29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
Hi cubes,
I ask you to sit with the eunuch as he travelled along with Phillip discussing the book of Isaiah. We were not there but we do know the response of the eunuch to that message and the sense that it was immediately necessary.
Acts 8.14
“Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptised?
Phillip replied that the eunuch could if he believed with all his heart. The eunuch said
” I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God”
Phillip agreed that was the faith required by God and baptised him immediately. Phillip then was snatched away by the Spirit of the Lord, suggesting strongly that God was satisfied the urgent matter at hand was satisfied.If we were with an unbeliever who wanted to discuss salvation would we be as useful to God as Phillip was?
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