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Hi S,
Quoting Eusebius
” Matthew had first preached to Hebrews and when he was on the point of going to others he transmitted in writing in his native language the gospel according to himself, and thus supplied by writing the lack of his own presence to those from whom he was sent”The Hebrew version is also available online.
ps. I would like to encourage you to positively contribute your insights S because we can all grow in that way.
Paul used a secretary. I am sure the letters to the Romans and Galatians were addressed primarily to Jewish audiences given the emphasis on Law which only relates to them.
Of course that does not mean the letters were in Hebrew but detail like that seems surprisingly difficult to find.
Hi Nick,
As to Romans, Paul is quite definitely writing to Gentiles, for he goes into great detail about his hope for the Jews, and this section ends with:
“If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.”
There is no doubt that the natural branches are the Jews, nor is there any doubt that Paul is talking to the wild shoots, ie. the Gentiles.
Again, in Galatians, Paul talks about the Law to emphasise his point that salvation isn't through obedience to the Law, but through faith in Jesus. Now the all-important background for this is that the Galatians were starting to observe Jewish holy days and rituals (eg. circumcision) – “after beginning in the Spirit are you trying to perfected in the flesh” (ie. by the Law). This is why he mentions rebuking Peter for going back under the Law, or Titus not being required to be circumcised. He also mentions his specific ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles, and talks about those who are sons of the promise be descendants of Abraham regardless of their lineage – “He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.”
Moving on to the Hebrew gospel of Matthew. As I mentioned earlier, there are Hebrew versions of the Bible, but these can't be dated to earlier than AD400. However, I believe the gospel of Matthew in Hebrew sold in bookshops comes from a Jewish apologist named Shem-Tob ben-Isaac ben-Shaprut, produced around the 1380's (only about 1300 years after the original was written – without mentioning the fact that old Syro-Chaldee and middle-Hebrew are two completely different languages).
The Watchtower published a book by George Howard called, The Gospel of Matthew According to a Primitive Hebrew Text, in which he argues that Shem-Tob's version was actually a descendant of the original Hebrew gospel of Matthew. But this can't be proved because there is no 1st century (or 2nd, or 3rd) gospel to validate the claim. Still, what was the purpose of Howard's book? To prove that God's name should be rendered Jahovah, not Yahweh.
So, I re-iterate, what does it matter whether we call the Almighty One, Jahovah or Yahweh (or YHWH), or Allah, or El, or El Shadai, or Enlil… language changes and you can't stop that from happening, but God doesn't look on our Phonetics, he looks on our Hearts.
Sisyphus.
Hi Nick,
I think I mentioned earlier that I don't believe that Eusebius had a Hebrew gospel of Matthew, but was comparing the Greek gospel with the Hebrew logia of Jesus – both these could equally be called gospels, but only one of them is called so today. Eusebius pointedly quotes Papias regarding Matthew's recording and interpretation of the logia, but does not distingush between the two.
The question of whether baptism should be in Jesus' name, or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to my mind rather a moot point. Again, I don't think God looks on our phonetics, less still our semantics, but on our hearts. I'm sure God would forgive all manner of semantic variations, if He saw that our hearts were true.
Sisyphus.
hmmm.
Well Paul did distinguish between baptisms in Acts 19 and Hebrews 6.1-2??We also know the apostles were obedient to Jesus and baptised in his name.
Does not Acts also say;
” There is no other name in heaven and earth by which we can be saved”
I do not think we should make unimportant what God seems to make important .
Do you?Hi Nick,
I think it is important to you, and you have decided that it is therefore important to God.
But answer me these questions three:
Will God judge you according to your understanding of Him, or according to the deeds which you understanding (beit perfect or imperfect) inspires?
Will one man be judged more harshly than another because he is of meaner understanding, though he acted fully upon the convictions of his understanding?
Are we saved by grace, or by understanding?
Sisyphus.
Hi S,
I hope that I will not be judged. Yeshua has fulfilled every requirement for me and I am born into him. I will not come under judgement but have already passed from death into life. I hope I produce the fruit that results from his investment in me.I teach so am more careful to learn before I share. I need all he can teach me lest I miss out on information that I and others need to know.
If I had not sought understanding and wisdom perhaps I would still be asleep and in dire danger.
What about you?
Not sure what you mean by “judge more harshily”.
There are only two options. Either you go into everlasting life or everlasting destruction. The “sheep” and “goats”. Those who “do Jesus' Father's will” and those who do not. None will be left in the middle.
And we all will be judged – Rom 14:10.
But that does not mean that we all will be punished. Judgement can also be a process of deremining whether you are good or bad. Whether you deserve life or death.
However, it is not us who decide if we are righteous or not. It is Jesus to whom God gave the authority to judge.
Even if we think that we are good in our own eyes, it does not neccessarely make it so in God's eyes. Therefore we must study Bible to know what is God's will and we must constantly check ourselves agains the “mirror” that is Bible.Hi Human,
What many do not realise is that the “sheep and goat judgement” of Matt 25.31 is for the world and not for the Church. It is a judgement of God's mercy for those outside of the new covenant, the otherwise unsaved.It is plain that it is a judgement of “Works” and we are not saved by our own “Works”. Anyone who thinks we can impress God and save ourselves by good works or commandment keeping is deluded. However wants to save himself will be lost. We must be born again into His Son to enter the kingdom through the narrow gate. We have no righteousness of our own but rely on the works of Jesus done for us.
Have a look at the judgement and you will see that the salvation of the sheep is because of what they have “done” for the “brothers “of Jesus. We are the brothers of Jesus as Hebrews 2 tells us. We are the Body of Christ on earth continuing his role of spreading the goods news about salvation in him. Eternal blessings ensue for those who help Jesus in us in any way.
It is the fulfillment of the promise that Jesus made that “anyone who gives you a cup of water because you belong to me will not lose his reward”. Likewise the goats failed to take opportunities to help those in the Body of Christ and they have missed the last recourse to God's mercy.
Both groups are surprised. The sheep did not expect to be saved and we should know our salvation. It is a judgement of condemnation for the goats but there is “no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus”
Look at Rev 20 and you will see that those who are in the first resurrection sit on thrones as judges and priests and they reign with Christ and will judge angels and men.Their names are written in the book of life of the Lamb and the second death has no power over them.
Our “judgement” is the Tribunal of Christ of 2 Cor 5.10. It is outlaid in detail just prior to the White Throne Judgement which is the sheep and goat judgement in Matt 25.14-30. It is primarily a judgement of reward for the “works” done through the Spirit invested in us. As servants we have to produce fruit but it is not our works but that of the Master in us.
I hope you understand now.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2005,18:08) Hi Human,
What many do not realise is that the “sheep and goat judgement” of Matt 25.31 is for the world and not for the Church. It is a judgement of God's mercy for those outside of the new covenant, the otherwise unsaved.It is plain that it is a judgement of “Works” and we are not saved by our own “Works”. Anyone who thinks we can impress God and save ourselves by good works or commandment keeping is deluded. However wants to save himself will be lost. We must be born again into His Son to enter the kingdom through the narrow gate. We have no righteousness of our own but rely on the works of Jesus done for us.
Have a look at the judgement and you will see that the salvation of the sheep is because of what they have “done” for the “brothers “of Jesus. We are the brothers of Jesus as Hebrews 2 tells us. We are the Body of Christ on earth continuing his role of spreading the goods news about salvation in him. Eternal blessings ensue for those who help Jesus in us in any way.
It is the fulfillment of the promise that Jesus made that “anyone who gives you a cup of water because you belong to me will not lose his reward”. Likewise the goats failed to take opportunities to help those in the Body of Christ and they have missed the last recourse to God's mercy.
Both groups are surprised. The sheep did not expect to be saved and we should know our salvation. It is a judgement of condemnation for the goats but there is “no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus”
Look at Rev 20 and you will see that those who are in the first resurrection sit on thrones as judges and priests and they reign with Christ and will judge angels and men.Their names are written in the book of life of the Lamb and the second death has no power over them.
Our “judgement” is the Tribunal of Christ of 2 Cor 5.10. It is outlaid in detail just prior to the White Throne Judgement which is the sheep and goat judgement in Matt 25.14-30. It is primarily a judgement of reward for the “works” done through the Spirit invested in us. As servants we have to produce fruit but it is not our works but that of the Master in us.
I hope you understand now.
Hi Nick,It is true that we cannot save ourselves as no human is righteous enough, and we all require the blood of the Lamb. Still I have to disagree with you on your interpretation of Matt 25:31 and your view regarding salvation/judgment.
My understanding of the word is that, Jesus is Lord, he tells us what to do. He said we are his disciples if we abide in his word and if we obey his commandments.
Of he himself, it is written that he deligted to do the will of the father and his obedience is our example. The whole ministry of Jesus in my view centers on love through obediece.
James teaches that faith without works is dead.
The epistle of John says that, for this is the love of God, that we OBEY his commandments–and his commandments are not burdensome.
My point is that we have no other way of showing that we love God. He owns the catttle on a thousand hills. We are like a child who asks his father for money so he can go and buy him a birthday present.
So I am afraid that a heart attitude that leads us into godly obedience is what Jesus will be looking for. Love is a verb.
He asked, “why do you call me Lord and do not what I say?”
Hi cubes,
If you reread my post you will see we have to produce fruit-that is the works of love done according to the new commandments of Yeshua. But it does not save us as we are already saved. It is a natural process to do so just as the branches naturally produce fruit-unless they are not connected to the vineIf you do not agree still what is it that you exactly disagree with?.
Hi cubes,
The OT commandments were given to the Jews as part of the Law and apply to them. Are you a Jew? If you are a gentile like me you are outside of that covenant.The law is very useful to us and teaches us a lot about God and what pleases and displeases Him. And they never disappear and remain as a yardstick for all. But they never were in force for us and only were in force for the Jews until the time of John the Baptist [Lk 16.16].
We cannot save ourselves by obedience to them can we?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2005,22:35) Hi cubes,
The OT commandments were given to the Jews as part of the Law and apply to them. Are you a Jew? If you are a gentile like me you are outside of that covenant.The law is very useful to us and teaches us a lot about God and what pleases and displeases Him. And they never disappear and remain as a yardstick for all. But they never were in force for us and only were in force for the Jews until the time of John the Baptist [Lk 16.16].
We cannot save ourselves by obedience to them can we?
Hi Nick, I have re-read your post. what you say about the fruit is true, that it should be a natural thing that happens when we are connected to the Vine. So then the lack of fruit indicates a disconnnection to the vine. Yet a person might consider him/herself a christian and be disconnected and therefore unproductive.I guess what you mean by fruit is what I mean by works (in the sense that James means it) and so in this sense, we do not disagree after all.
With regards to the Laws of the OT, I am grateful that Jesus has summed it up for us in his Royal Law, namely: Love
Love of God, of self, of neighbor, of the brethren and even of enemy. Love is an activity. It naturally leads to the giving of oneself. It is a fruit of the spirit and so your usage is more correct and I misunderstood.All I am saying is that, call it works or fruit, the father's will must be done on earth as it is in heaven. And salvation belongs to those who do it, and that begins with knowing Yahshua and obeying Yahshua because we love God and we love his son. It is a struggle at times and by his grace, we opt for the choices that please him because we love him.
——
With regards to Revelations 20, it seems to me that those who are referred to rule and judge with Christ are those who “had been beheaded for their witness to Yahshua and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” Rev 20:4b.
This does not seem to refer to all believers. Granted, I am saying this based on only Rev 20:4. In fact, this group seem to be directly from the Tribulation Period because of references to “had not received mark on their foreheads…”
I don't know if this refers to ALL those killed for the gospel or some.——
With regards to the sheep and the goats, are you saying that unsaved “good people” will be saved provided they do something good for christians?
********
Isaiah 58:6-9:
Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke?
Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; when you see the naked, that you cover him, and not hide yourself from your own flesh? Then your light shall break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily, and your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard. Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer; you shall cry, and he will say, “here I am.”********
It's been my belief that Messiah's followers are rather to be the ones who follow in his footsteps of good works: the Royal Law of Christ.
Hi cubes,
We must not confuse the Reiterated OT law given to The Jews who asked what they must”DO” to be saved [works]with the Law of Christ.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2005,02:05) Hi cubes,
We must not confuse the Reiterated OT law given to The Jews who asked what they must”DO” to be saved [works]with the Law of Christ.
Hi Nick,I need further clarification on that. I am thinking of the man who was told to go sell everything and give to the poor and come follow Jesus (MATT 19:16-23), also of Nicodemus who was told he must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3), and of the Jailer in Acts 16:30 who was told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.
Correction: Royal law and not Royal law of Christ.
But nevertheless, James writes:
****
James 2:8-13:
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”* you do well; 9 but if you *show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”* Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.***
Is there a difference for Jewish and Gentile believers?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2005,02:10) Hi cubes ,
You need to read the first part of Rev 20 to see a repeat of 2 Tim 2 12.
Hi Nick,Here's NKJV's Revelations 20:
20Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for *a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(cf. Ezek. 38; 39)
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where* the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before *God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second *death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Courtesy of blueletterbible.org)
Compared to:
******
2 Tim 2:11-13:This is a faithful saying:
for if we died with him, we shall also live with him. If we endure, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful; he cannot deny himself.******
Compared to:
Romans 6:1-11: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.***
It seems to me that all that are Christ's would find their names written in the Book of Life, but the thrones and such are reserved for those who die for their witness of Christ (Rev 20:4). It also makes me take another look at Rev 3:21:
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Hi cubes,
Matt 19.16f is interesting. Compare it with all the other discussions on the OT Law Jesus had with the Jews and in this one only he showed there was a new covenant. He offered the rich young man the advice to sell all and follow him. That is the same thing as he said to Nicodemus because the first part of following him is into his death and resurrection by being born again of Water and the Spirit.There is no difference between Jew and Gentile as both groups can go through the narrow gate.The faithful Jew is the older son in the Prodigal son scenario and he inherits the kingdom through perfect obedience to the Law-but that is now an impossible task. People prefer older wine Jesus said and many Jews still prefer to attempt to inherit salvation through works as they stumble over the stone of Jesus.
144,000 will be saved from the Jewish tribes but they have the name of the Son of God written on them so they must come to accept him too-“they will mourn when they look on him they have pierced.”
If you read fully the story of the salvation of the jailor you will see he and his family were baptised after receiving the message of salvation so 'belief' implies also 'obedience' to the command to be born again of water and the Spirit here.
Yes God has allowed an exception to that command in giving salvation to those who help his followers. It gives a greater depth to the scripture of the workers in the vineyard who were paid the same as the hardworking servants but for minimal effort.
rev 20.4” Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them ,and judgement was given to them.
AND I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the Word of God,
AND those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and their hand;and they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 yrs.”There are three groups here. The ANDs show that the second and third groups are separate from the first.
The two Tim verse shows also three groups
Those who have died with him in Baptism
Those who have endured to death
Those who have endured without worshiping the beast etc.You can overcome in Jesus prior to the rapture or afterwards through death or endurance.
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