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Hello,
Where did “church” come from? The word is not found in the Hebrew or the Greek translation of Scripture. The idea of an entity called “The Church” does no come from the original writings, and is only found in the english translations.
One hundred and fifty years before Yahshua, seventy rabbis got together to translate the Hebrew Tanach, (known as the old testament), from Hebrew into Greek. This translation is called “The Septuagint”.
In the Tanach the Hebrew the words, kehilah, kehelat and adat means, “the called out ones” or “the assembly” and always represented Yahweh's “called out assembly”, Israel.
These Hebrew words were translated to the Greek word “ekkessia” in The Septuagint and always represented Yahweh's “called out assembly”, Israel.
In every place these translators came across these Hebrew words in the Tanach, they were translated into “ekklessia”.
How did the Greek word “ekklessia” that means “the called out assembly”, and represented Yahweh's “called out assembly” in the OT, become the word “church” in the NT?The Greek translation of the NT, also used the word “ekklessia”, meaning the “called out assembly” just as the Septuagint had done in the OT.
It was the English translators and early monks who translated “ekklessia” into the word “church” which was derived from the word “kirch” of pagan Celtic origin. In doing this they created a doctrine that seperated the OT believers, from the NT believers, making two different assemblies.
Yahweh is calling out believers into one assembly, and not under a pagan title.The “Church”, a man made entity, with it's pagan sabbath, hol-i-days, customs and traditions, that it borrowed and adopted from the world's religions, with which it substituted everything that came from Yahweh. The Church, dressed in a wedding gown of blasphemy, calling herself the bride of Messiah. She is Babylon, from the Pope on down to her protesting daughters who were born from her womb, concieved through intercourse with the world.
The “ekklessia” in the OT are the same people as the “ekklessia” in the NT. This false division of the Tanach and the Messianic Scriptures, which made it's first appearence in Jerome's translation of the Scriptures into the Latin Vulgate, and is where the the term “New Testament” first occurs.
This false division, has distorted understanding and broke the continuity between the promise of Messiah, and the fulfillment of that promise through Messiah.S7
Good points Shakai 7,
What is in a word?
Why take any notice of the Whore of Babylon and pay her any heed? True believers will see 'the emperor is wearing no clothes'. She has no commission, no direction and no connection with the head of the Body.
But we know that there is a true assembly of called out believers too. A brotherhood of faith that includes those who came out of Judaism and the grafted in gentiles.Hi S7,
In my concordance those Hebrew words read as “assembly” rather than “called out assembly”but perhaps I need to look further.
The words spoken to the Jews and the Christians were very similar but not quite the same.
Ex 20.5″ “Therefore if you hearken to My voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my special possession, dearer to me than all other people, though all the earth is mine. YOU SHALL BE A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, A HOLY NATION.That is what you must tell the Israelites”
Deut 7.6″ For you are a people sacred to the Lord,your God; He has CHOSEN YOU from all the nations on the face of the earth to be a people peculiarly His own”but to the NEW people of gentile and jewish origin
1 Pet 2.9 ” You, however are 'a chosen race, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, a people he claims for his own to proclaim the glorious works' of the One who called you from darkness into his marvellous light. Once you were no people but now you are God's people, once there was no mercy for you but now you have found mercy”
The new Priesthood is Royal as Jesus is King and Priest combining the two anointed ministries.
Hello Nick,
Strongs grk# 1577, Calling out, meeting, congregation, Jewish synagogue.
Ex. 20:5
Duet. 7:6
1Peter 2:9, They are all speaking of the same called out people. There are not two groups of called out. They are not Jews and certainly not Christians. How can I get “Christian” from being a follower of a Hebrew Messiah? Christian comes from the Greek word “Christianos”. The Messiah was a Jew, Scripture was written originally in Hebrew, before being translated into Greek. Why then would His assembly, have a Greek title? The Greek pagans first called the Messianic believers, “Christianos”. The “Church” continues, part of the fornication with the world.It is not, “what is in a word”, but rather “what is in the Word”. “Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written, because the time is near.”
To know who she and her daughters are, you must take notice of her. She is not alone, she has daughters who are whores also. Most open hearted bible students agree on who this whore represents, but do not attempt to identify her offspring. In order to understand their identity, one must clearly know who and why she is what she is.
“Babylon the Great” is her title, and her children are whores and the abominations of the earth. She sits on her throne, claiming to be the bride of Messiah. She has had intercourse with the kings of the earth. She is royally dressed, and holds a gold cup full of the abominations and filthiness of her whoring. She is drunk on the blood of the saints and witnesses of Yahshua. She is a religious system who rides on the “beast”, gentile pagan nations satan uses to oppose Yahweh's called out congregation, and whom she has fornicated with.
In Daniel 7: one of the horns of this beast speaks words against the Most High, and intend to change the “appointed times” and “law”. This she has accomplished by substituting Elohim's Holy Feast, which were appointed by Yahweh, with the pagan hol-i-days from nations of her fornication. She has replaced Elohim's Sabbath with the Roman sun worship day. She has fooled the world into believing that the Law of Yahweh is burdensome and harsh and has been abolished. Her protesting, fornicating daughters carry on in her image.
S7
Hi S7,
We agree about the whore and her daughters. But where does she claim to be the bride of Christ? Perhaps in her teachings?
I would have thought “Christos” meaning 'anointed one' was the real root of the word christian. Followers of the Christ or Messiah or Anointed One?
Acts 11.26″…The disciples were called christians first at Antioch”
Acts 26.28″ Then Agrippa said to Paul' Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a christian?'”
1 Peter4. 16″ However if you suffer as a christian ,do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name”So ,ok, the word 'Christos' does not appear in the OT. But 'anointed' does-frequently. Twice the “Anointed one” appears in Dan 9 referring to the Messiah.The jews were expecting an anointed messiah but few experts recognised him.
Jn 1.41″ …We have found the Messiah[that is the Christ]
Jn 4.25″ The woman said 'We know that Messiah [called Christ ] is coming…..”
These scriptures suggest that the terms 'Christ' and 'Messiah' are interchangeable.Is 61.1″ The Spirit of the Soverign Lord is on me because the Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor” are the words Jesus said referred to himself when he spoke in the synagogue in Lk 4.18
Mt 26 63″…The high priest said to him 'I charge you under oath by the living God .Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God' 'Yes it is as you say 'Jesus replied”Jesus agreed he was the 'anointed one'and Peter confirmed it too.
Acts 10 37
” You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached- how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and Power..”I would suggest that the Israelites were an 'assembly' of God's chosen people but that those who followed Jesus, from jew or gentile, were 'called out' to follow him and form a new 'called out assembly'
No offence, Shakai 7, but why can you not accept the greek word for Christians but happily accept the greek word “ecclesia” for the jewish assembly ?
They all had to be born again into the family of God.
God has people who are yet in the Whore. Why else would it say
“Come out of her MY PEOPLE”?Hello Nick,
He was never called Jesus Christ when He was here. That is a substitute name from the whore's system.
Ieasus Christos, appeared in the Greek translation of the original Hebrew writings replacing, “Yahshua Ha Mochiach”. Even if Christ is a Greek translation for Mochiach “anointed”, Ieasus is not the Greek translation for “Yahshua”. Names are not translated, they should be transliterated, attempting to retain the original sound. That is the normal practice with names. Ekklessia is the Greek word meaning congregation, it is not a personal name.Yahshua was a Jew, He did not have a Greek name or title. He and His diciples were raised Hebrew, they spoke Hebrew. Hebrew was their native language, It was the language of their religion, it was the language they had received from Yahweh, and in which the Scriptures were written. The name “Yahweh”, is a Hebrew name.
But even if Ieasus is the Greek translation for Yahshua, why did the English transliterate the Greek name rather than the Hebrew name into English? The English form of Yahshua is Joshua, not Jesus.
Jesus, as pronounced in English is not even correct. Jesus should be pronounced yey-sooce.If Yahshua was the Mochiach, the Messiah, in the English form, how are His followers called “Christians”? In the original Hebrew, they were not called Christians, only in the Greek did they become Christians. The whore's fornication with the Greek.
The Hebrew could have been translated into the Greek, retainning the Hebrew names and titles for the Messiah and His followers, without corruption, just as the Jewish translators had done with the Septuagint. If that was the case, “Christian” would not exist.
There is nothing wrong with translating the Hebrew into other languages, that is nessessary, but the integrity of the Word of Yahweh must be maintained.So, any place Christian, or Jesus Christ, appears in the NT, that is a mistranslation, an attempt by the whore to hide the Truth. Her system uses those names. Her daughters carry on with that corruption.
I see not only the Roman Church, as being the whore of Babel, but I see the whole church system, her daughters, protesting but continuing to inccorporate the her pagan lies and customs into their systems.
Babylon claiming to the bride, is not stated outright, but implied by through the scripture.
Babylon, name of a city. She is a whore who has committed fornication with the kings of the earth.
New Jerusalem name of the Holy city. She is a virgin, who is pure.
Babylon is dressed as a queen, adorned in precious stones and pearls.
New Jerusalem is dressed as a bride, represents virginity, she shone with the glory of Elohim and it's brilliance was like a very precious jewel, like jasper clear as crystal. (Not mere stones but Elohim's Glory).
Babylon is fallen, and all nations have drunk of the maddening wine of her fornications. (intercourse with pagans)
“Come out of her my people”. come out of this lying false system, who has replaced Yahweh's Truth with substitutes.
“In her heart she boasts, I sit a Queen, I am not a widow and I will never mourn.” “In one day her plagues will over take her, death mourning and famine;”
New Jerusalem, ” Now the dwelling of Elohim is with men and and He will live with them. They will be His people, and Elohim Himself will be with them and be their Elohim.” “There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain;”
They are opposites, yet many of Elohim's people will think this whore is the bride and will have to be warned to get out of her, or suffer along with her and her daughters.
Yahshua agreed He was the Messiah and Chepha confirmed it.
I agree that Israel was the called out assembly, and that now, Jewish Israel, Eprhaim Israel and true gentiles who answer that call, and the call out from this whore, Babylon, are Yahweh's chosen congregation.
No offense taken and I hope I have not offended with my harsh words.
Shalom,
S7Hi S7,
Thank you again for you erudite exposition. I do not doubt the truth of what you say but for the sake of those in the forum I feel it is necessary to use terms that are known but less appropriate. It is hard enough to explain simple things.When do you see the role of the whore in the life of the true assembly beginning? Was it at the intervention of pagan Rome in Constantine or earlier? Were the earliest translations the beginning? Where is the work of the Spirit in safeguarding the Word's integrity seen by you? Or is there enough protected for true believers to discover the rest?
Certainly Yahshua himself had to deal with corruption right at the beginning as he rebuked Peter for preferring the will of man to that of God. Peter also wanted to build buildings to commemorate the revelation of his glory that Jesus showed them on the mountain.That diversion has also has continued with glorious buildings more the fruit of the false church rather than defence of the integrity of truth. Their buildings also reach for the sky as did the tower of Babel. The sons of thunder wanted to call down fire on towns that refused them an ear but that also was of man.
Yes those churches that refuse the leadership of Rome but continue with her falsehoods are only her daughters and face the same fate. God only keeps a remnant for Himself.
Nick,
I see the deception beginning in Eden. Satan is the author of all deception. Ephraim Israel was deceived and sent into captivity. Jewish Israel was deceived and sent into captivity in physical Babylon. While there Jewish Israel had intercourse with the Babylonians, returning from there the Jews brought a bastard religion back to Jerusalem, (Pardon my French), the offspring of their union.Ephraim Israel had done the same thing among the nations and were totally lost into paganism.
The Messiah had come and was sacrificed for their sin, they were called to the Truth He came to deliver. His diciples received the Truth, but very soon after He left satan began to work his deception among the believers. From the Jewish believers, satan began to lie about the free pardon that Yahshua had given, and from the non Jewish believers satan began to corrupt the Truth with pagan interpretation and teachings. Even the true leaders of the flock had their own disagreements with each other. As the assembly grew larger they had to face more and more believers coming in from pagan backrounds.The first believers were mostly Jews, from the OT backround. As they began to be out numbered by believers from pagan gentile backrounds, and more and more of their pagan customs
and religious beliefs were incorporated into the assembly, the Jewish customs and traditions were removed. Most of this happened through the Roman Church. Everything of Hebraic origin was removed and the whore was born. More and more she evolved into what she is today. Along the way she had daughters who began to protest and split from her, but only a small bit.The Spirit safeguarded the integrity of the Word, it is still with us today. The combination of OT and NT with His guidance that only through Yahshua can we find Truth. The ability to research church history and see where and how certain changes took place. To look into the meanings of the original language and see how translations from pagan cultures influenced their understanding. The true names all had meanings related to them that were lost in translation, just as the Hebrew had deeper meanings sometimes not understood by gentile translators.
S7
Fair enough S7,
I would have thought the major problem with the early assembly was the legalist jewish believers. They accused the apostles of rejecting the Law and caused them to have to make compromises to accommodate their demands. Paul nearly despaired when their influence over the Galatians caused some to go back to jewish religious ways and attitudes.
Their troublemaking caused Paul to be almost killed on several occasions. Of course so did the gentile silversmiths whose idol making business was threatened.
Lack of true repentance is the root of all these things as new wine should not be put in old wineskins.Hi Nick,
For sure the Jewish religious leaders were a problem for the Messianic assembly at first. That was because of their twisted interpretation of the Torah. Later as believers from the gentiles increased, their pagan teachings were adopted into the Messianic doctrine.
An example came to my mind when I was reading a disscussion on another topic. The words hell, hadies, sheol, and gehenna came up in that topic's exchange. Those are good examples of Greek mythology infiltrating Messianic doctrine through their intercourse with the whore.
Sheol, is the Hebrew word for “the grave”. Sheol is the only word translated to the word “hell” in the OT. This is a bad translation.
“Hades”, is used in the NT and is also translated to “hell”. Also in the NT is the word “gehenna” and “tartarus” is translated to “hell”.
In Greek mythology “Hades” was the lord of the underworld, the lord of the dead. Hades rules the dead with assitance from demonic helpers. He is said to possess the riches of the earth. Hades is also used as the name of the place where the souls of the dead are held.
The place Hades, is made up of several different locations. The righteous are sent to the Elysian Fields where they dwell in happiness.
The wicked are sent to Tartarus, where they live in torment. These two areas are seperated by the Plain of Judgement.
Nowhere in the Septnuagint is the Greek “Hades” mentioned, only the Hebrew “sheol”. It is not until the NT was translated into Greek that these pagan names came into the scripture. Would Yahweh use the names of pagan gods and places? Hades already existed in Greek mythology long before Yahshua came to the earth. The Greek people already held these religious beliefs and understood Greek mythology. The Messianic believers allowed pagan Greek mythology to influence their understanding through teachings and translation. This made for them an easier transition into christianity. This pagan Greek influence still exist within the church and has been accepted by the majority, not knowing where it originated.
“Hel” was the name for the Norse godess of the underworld.
Gehenna, is the valley of Hinnom. In the Hebrew “ge”, is a gorge, a valley with steep sides.
Hinnom is the name of the valley just outside of Jerualem in Yahshua's time, that was a garbage dump.
S7Thank you s7,
Your insights are always helpful. It raises a problem though.Are you saying verses were introduced into the NT?
or are you saying greek words have been substituted for others?
If you say the second then what do you make of Lk 16.19f and all the other references to Hades?
Does it really matter if the words used are able to be related to by listeners from their cultural context?
We still use Wodensday and Thorsday and Saturnsday in our vocabulary and to remove them would seem foolish.Likewise if another culture adds understanding without distorting meaning is that evil?
I only am posing questions here.Hi Nick,
I am saying that the meaning of the original text in some cases has been distorted or changed by the by the translation. Through the translation Greek mytholgy has been injected into the doctrine.
In the case of hades. Hades was understood by the early Greek believers in it's pagan dress when they were converted. They brought that understanding into their new found religion. When they read the Greek scripture and saw the familiar names, they carried the long taught pagan meaning with them. These teachings filtered into the Messianic doctrine. Hades and sheol are not the same.Greek is not our cutural context, yet through that early mixture of the Word and greek mythology we are blindly led into falsehood.
I see Luke 16:19 to be a parable with the attempt to teach a lesson. It is not a literal story. Each part explains different teachings by Yahshua. The overall message is, the rich who never help the less fortunate and those in need, like widows and orphans, have all their reward in this world. But the poor, who have nothing in this world, will inherit the Kingdom in the the age to come, while the rich will be cast out and have nothing.
The rich man would not even give the poor beggar even the crumbs that fell from his table. The beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side, bossom. To the Jewish listener, to whom He was talking, Abraham's side represented the Messianic Kingdom. (Matt. 13:28 “There will be there and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Elohim and you yourselves cast out.”) Speaking here Yahshua describes the fate of the evil and the righteous. One with Abraham, and one cast out and gnashing his teeth.
Abraham was carried off by angels. (Matt. 13:40f) At the end of the age the angels will come and seperate the good from the bad. The bad will will be thrown into the firey furnace and the good to the Kingdom of their father.
When I was hungry you did not feed me, when I was naked you did not clothe me. They asked when did we not? He said, when you did it to the least of mine, you did it to Me.
If they did not believe Moses and the prophets they will not believe one who comes back from the dead. And they did not.
There is much more to this .
The names of the days proves how much we have blindly received fro paganism.
S7
Hi S7,
People still choose out of scripture what suits their current conceptions of truth. That is human nature. I hope some will look further at Lk 16 19f. There is yet more revealed there that you and others cannot accept.Hi,
I cannot agree with shakai7.
The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (from Genesis to Malachi) uses the word “Hades” 73 times, employing it 60 times to translate the Hebrew word she´ohl', commonly rendered “Sheol.” The divinely inspired writer of Acts, definitely showed Hades to be the Greek equivalent of Sheol when he translated Peter's quotation from Psalm 16:10. (Ac 2:27).
Hi Human and Shakai 7,
S7,Where does it say Abraham was carried off by angels? Do you mean Lazarus? It only says that about Lazarus in Lk 16, where it says the rich man died and was buried.
Is there a deeper meaning here about the different fates of the good and evil under the OT? The evil go to the pit and the good to the 'Bosom of Abraham' carried in the arms of angels?
The parable of the Tares in the Wheat only describes the removal of the tares and does not include the reward of the righteous. It is at the end of the age, not at death.
Since the wheat is the planted Word in good soil then this must be about the removal of the wicked from the church, not the world?
I agree Human about the use of Hades. You must prove your assertions about greek scriptural corruption verse by verse S7.
What do you think?Hu human,
Some good insights. My reading is that “sheol” is death and includes 'hades' and 'the bosom of Abraham' as shown in Lk 16.23. Since there is no specifed waiting place for gentiles then I presume they have the same fate till death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire, which I believe is gehenna.KJV has a lot to answer for as it does not discriminate between Hades and Gehenna translating both as “hell”. This has confused a lot of people including the author of a site I have just read called “The truth about Hell”
Clearly the spirits of the saved go to Jesus as is shown by what Stephen said in Acts 7.59.
What I am unsure about is the place known as “My Father's House”in Jn 14.1. There are lots of scriptures that say the Father has a habitation in Heaven. Is this another name for the New Jerusalem or is it a place of waiting for saved souls under the Altar in Rev 6.9?
Shakai7,
I don't know where you get the idea that what is known as the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew. There is no evidence to suggest that this is so. Certainly, there are Aramaic translations, but these cannot be accurately dated to any time before AD400.
Moreover, it is ridiculous to suggest that Luke (who was a Gentile) wrote in Hebrew; or that Paul, writing to the Gentiles in Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth or Rome, would choose to write in Hebrew.
This entire discussion is based on a false premise, which you all seem to perpetuate without question.
But, who cares anyway? Church or assembly, Jesus or Joshua, hell or gehenna – it isn't the word that matters, but the meaning that you associate with the word.
When the Son of man returns, will He really find faith on the Earth – or will He just find a bunch of people who profess to follow Him, but can't agree on who it is they're following?
Sisyphus.
Hi sisyphus,
Welcome, you raise some good points and it would be good to know more on these matters.As I recall Bishop Eusebius from about the second century, reported there was a copy of Matthew written in hebrew or aramaic but I would like top find out more.
Who can add here?
Hi Nick,
Eusebius was actually quoting from Papias who said: “Matthew wrote the sayings (logia) of Jesus in the Hebrew dialect, and each one interpreted as he could.” This could mean that Matthew interpreted each saying as he could, or that “each one” (ie. the other gospel writers) interpreted the sayings as they could. But it doesn't say what language the interpretation was.
It has been suggested, and perhaps plausibly, that these sayings were what is commonly known as source 'Q'. It is probably this that the early writers (including Origen and Irenaeus) mean when they mention the Hebrew writings of Matthew.
There is also a legend that when Pantaenus travelled to India he found that the apostle Bartholomew had gone there before and left behind Matthew's gospel, “in the actual Hebrew characters”. Again (if true), this would more likely refer to the sayings of Jesus than what is now called the gospel of Matthew.
Despite all this, I am willing to concede that the gospel of Matthew could have written in Hebrew, but it is a moot point because no-one has ever suggested that the gospel of Matthew was written to anyone but the Jews. This very fact precludes it from a discussion about the possible Hellenisation of the gospels – next thing people will be saying that the letter to the Hebrews also has remarkably Hebrew idioms. Seriously!!
Sisyphus.
Thanks S,
I read there is also available a Hebrew version of Matthew's gospel preserved by the Jews since the first century and it still accessible through bookstores I understand.
The interest in Eusebius and his reputed ownership of an Aramaic version of Matthew is to do with the doubt of the authenticity of Matt 28.19.
Eusebius quoted from it as “baptise in my Name” many times before the council of Nicea but afterwards used the triadic formula.Of course it is also surprising the triadic version was never used by the apostles as reported in Acts.
All his library of books were destroyed by Domitian.
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