- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi,
This has come up.Rev 20
” 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”
Rev 21
“1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”
So is this a new creation or a recreation?
Hi david,
You asked
“Doesn't “the sea” often represent wicked people in the Bible? “
but Gen 1 says
“Genesis 1:10
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.”Hi ,
Is Ps 46
” 1God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.2Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
3Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof”
Hag 2
“Haggai 2:6
For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;”Luke 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;Quote You asked
“Doesn't “the sea” often represent wicked people in the Bible? “
but Gen 1 says
“Genesis 1:10
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.”
Of course the actual sea that Jehovah created was good.
There's nothing wrong with the sea itself.
The wicked are not going to remain.
The wicked are often represented by the sea.ISAIAH 57:20
““But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.”2 PETER 3:5
“For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God;”2 PETER 3:6
“and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.”
The world (and I believe in Genesis, it actually says the “earth” was destroyed.) But of course, it was only the wicked people.2 PETER 3:7
“But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.”
heavens and earth of now are stored up for fire and reserved for the day of judgement and “DESTRUCTION OF THE UNGODLY MEN.”2 PETER 3:10
“Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.”
This is speaking of fire and fire destroying the heavens and the earth. What effect would fire have on the literal heavens? On the stars? On the sun?2 PETER 3:11
“Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion,”2 PETER 3:12-13
“awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which [the] heavens being on fire will be dissolved and [the] elements being intensely hot will melt! But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”
The heavens being on fire will dissolve. The elements will melt? Again, what effect does fire have on the sun for example? I believe it's referring to the old system of rulership. In the Bible, heavens often represent rulership. Similarly, the Bible tells us the earth will not totter, it will remain forever. Jehovah didn't create it only to destroy it.Jehovah’s heavens cannot be shaken. Neither is “the earth” in the same verse the literal planet earth, for Jehovah says that he has established the earth firmly. (Ps 78:69; 119:90) Yet, God says that he will shake both the heavens and the earth (Hag 2:21; Heb 12:26), that the heavens and earth will flee away before him, and that new heavens and a new earth will be established. (2Pe 3:13; Re 20:11; 21:1) It is evident that “heavens” is symbolic and that “earth” here has symbolic reference to a society of people living on the earth, just as at Psalm 96:1
PSALM 94:2
“Raise yourself up, O Judge of the earth. Bring back a retribution upon the haughty ones.”Gen 18:25
Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?ACTS 17:31
“Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.””earth doesn't always mean the planet in the Bible
Hi david,
Your quick posting suggests copy and paste from the watchtower dogmas so I guess all true dialogue has finished.I believe it is a reforming of the earth, a purging of all of man's works as well as the futility (atrophy) that creation has been subject to since the fall. So in a sense God restores our atmosphere and the earth itself (possibly including our sun and planets within our system) to it's former perfection and to an eternal state, basically discontinuing (or remaking it beyond) the second law of thermodynamics.
Personally I believe that this takes place at the end of the millenium, starting at chapter 20:9 of Rev.
Rev 20:7And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,
8and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;
9and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.
11And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls — according to their works;
13and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
14and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire — this [is] the second death;
15and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;
2and I, John, saw the holy city — new Jerusalem — coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;
3and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them — their God,
4and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'
5And He who is sitting upon the throne said, `Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, `Write, because these words are true and steadfast;'
Basically Peter was given the revelation of the end of sin on earth and the revelation given to John (which had not been given yet) chronicles the details leading up to it.
Obviously just speculation on my part.
PSALM 104:5
“He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.”ECCLESIASTES 1:4
“A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.”PSALM 78:69
“And he began to build his sanctuary just like the heights, Like the earth that he has founded to time indefinite.”PSALM 119:90
“Your faithfulness is for generation after generation. You have solidly fixed the earth, that it may keep standing.”PSALM 96:10
“Say among the nations: “Jehovah himself has become king. The productive land also becomes firmly established so that it cannot be made to totter. He will plead the cause of the peoples in uprightness.””It seems the literal earth was created to remain forever.
If you created a building and rented it out and then some bad tenents were making things bad for the good occupants, would you burn the building down?
Or would you remove the wicked people?PROVERBS 2:21-22
“For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”1. So we know that the earth, Jehovah's creation, will not be made to totter and that it will keep standing to time indefinite.
2. We also know that sometimes the word “earth” actually means people or mankind in the Bible.
Examples:
GENESIS 11:1
“Now all the earth continued to be of one language and of one set of words.”1 CHRONICLES 16:31
“Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be joyful, And let them say among the nations, ‘Jehovah himself has become king!’”PSALM 96:1
“Sing to Jehovah a new song. Sing to Jehovah, all [YOU people of] the earth.”3. In the old account of Isaiah where it speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, what was the initial fulfillment of this? An actual new planet?
No.4. I think we have to understand this in the light of Isaiah, as it's an extremely similar scripture and also in the light of what the rest of the Bible says about the literal earth.
5. There's really no choice when looking at Rev 21 or 2 Pet 3.
Not that we need it, but here's further reason. In 2 Pet 3, where it talks of new heavens and a new earth and the old heaven and earth being consumed by fire, we are told specifically:2 PETER 3:7
“But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the UNGODLY MEN.”The scripture itself explains it.
PROVERBS 2:21-22
“For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”So when we look at the new earth, it seems we must look at it in the sense that the word “earth” is sometimes used in the Bible, that of people.
There will be a new set of people. A new earth. It will be a new phase for mankind, much like the new moon is a new phase, not an actual new planet.
We use the expression “new moon” all the time. We understand that it doesn't mean an actual new moon.And in Rev 21, as you quote, where it speaks of “no more sea”:
Quote Rev 21
“1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.Since God originally made the earth with seas and since it seems that the new earth is referring to new people, perhaps the “no more sea” is used in the sence that the Bible sometimes uses the word “sea.”
“The wicked are like the sea.” (Is 57:20)This agrees with this scripture:
PROVERBS 2:22
“As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”
PSALM 37:20
“For the wicked themselves will perish. . .They must come to their end.”david
Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2006,23:45) It seems the literal earth was created to remain forever. If you created a building and rented it out and then some bad tenants were making things bad for the good occupants, would you burn the building down?
Or would you remove the wicked people?
I would not burn it down but I may have to strip it to it's frame to properly restore it.I do agree that the wicked will be removed.
I tend to take everything in scripture literally whenever possible. So “new heaven and new earth” to me means just that, but it does not mean the total obliteration of existing but only to the extent necessary to remove all vestiges of the old.
Hi,
At the time of great white throne judgement it says
Rev 20
“11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. “Does this state that this judgement does not take place on earth?
Hi all, I would like to ask you guys a question. This question regards the lost book of enoch. In the book, God tells the angel Michael to bind up the fallen angel Semjaza for seventy generations until the Judgement from God. Does that mean that the Judgement from God upon mankind would occur seventy generations from when Semjaza was bound up. But how could this be, because the bible clearly states, that no one knows when the Judgement will occur, not even the son of man.
Thanks, NickHi Nick and welcome,
Jesus said
No one knows the day or the hour.
That means they can and perhaps should know
the season, the year and the month and the week, even down to the last two days.1Thess 5
” 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
Hi
Ps 115
“16The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. “Hi all:
“But the day of the Lord will come as a theif in the night; in the which the HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP”. (2 Peter 3:10)
“Nevertheless we, according his promise, look for NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS”.
Based on these scriptures the face of the earth will be made anew. It will be paradise anew for God's children. “Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth”. (Matt. 5:5)
God Bless
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
